 Welcome back. It is still the run-up. We'd like to know that you're still there. And just before we went on that quick break, we gave you a rundown of everything that you should be expecting on the show today. And moving on, elections correspondents to periods of heightened media coverage and reporting. And with each political party wanting to lead the country, these issues become very unnecessary. And, you know, it gets really crazy at times like this. And then we begin to ask questions like what is the place of the media, you know, in election coverage, in making sure that we have free and fair elections. And having this conversation with us this morning, I have lying in the studio lying to Adagou. Good morning and welcome. My name is Adagou. You just got what I used to get when I say my name is Nyamgoul Agadjian. What did you say? Anyway, welcome to the program. Thank you very much. It's nice to be here. And also joining us virtually is Ulubengah Judge. He is a journalist and a political analyst. Good morning, Ulubengah. Good morning. Thank you very much. All right. Let's start this way, Dr. Adagou. First of all, who is a journalist? I think we need to answer that question first before we get into the rules. Well, I think by my understanding and what actually obtains, it might be somebody who was trained in the art of news reporting. Well, you know, everything in this world is changing now. If there is nothing that does not change in the society now, it has changed itself. Now, we have journalism at every minstratum of the society now. So much that the advent of social media has made just anybody that can put some sentences together to be a journalist. And citizen journalism, as good as it is, is as arrogated that power or that tag of a journalist on those who know nothing, next to nothing about journalism. With us now, you have in the society today, people who call themselves bloggers. Bloggers whose blogs are full of spelling, grammatical, syntax errors, who separate themselves as journalists. Unfortunately, there is no way you can regulate on who should be called the journalist or not. So we have that problem already. It is very difficult not to know who is the journalist. Okay, Mr. Benga, we have tried to, Dr. Adagumas tried to define journalism. You know, it's now like a generational thing. In one generation, journalism had a definition. Now, it's more or less like it doesn't have a definition. No, it's not an all-command affair. Yeah. But what particular things should we be looking out for? You know, because some of these people may not even know that they're doing it wrongly and might really want to do it right. What are some of these qualities that need to be looked out for, or qualities that the person himself or herself needs to develop to become a good journalist that can cover things as objectively as they should, especially as it leads up to election time? Maybe at this time, Benga cannot answer that, but still... Yes, it's a question. You're asking them what do we expect them to be? Actually, the media or the press is especially the fourth estate of the realm. It's not subservient to any of the other estates, judiciary, legislature, and executive. It's supposed to be an independent observer. Yes. And I think before the independence, we played that up very much. I like the word you used supposed to be, because most of the questions coming after may be hanging around what is supposed to be and what is not right. What is supposed to be is that it's supposed to be an impartial observer and source of information about happiness in the polity. Yes. But don't forget, journalism like history thrives on objectivity. And that's something you can't get anywhere today. Objectivity, well, it depends on who's talking about it and what is happening. We want an objective reporting from a reporter in the media house that has not been paid for months and must not at the same time talk about any issue that will injure the ownership of the so-called medium. That puts your idea of objectivity at stake. Okay. Benga is back. Benga, before you were managerialized, you were trying to say something. So please go on. Okay. The question is that what should we, the people look out for? What should we, what should the people who are struggling to be journalists look out for in themselves and other people that they want to emulate? Because as we go into a sensitive period like the 2023 election, we need to know who, for instance, is the journalist so that when people, they blame the professional lot, the media houses, you guys are not doing enough of this. But now we need to identify who really is a journalist that is doing the work and whoever is trying to do the work. We need to know the qualities that that person needs to possess so that when the people are judging us, they should know that this one, okay, he doesn't qualify. So I cannot use whatever he's doing to condemn the rest. So what are these qualities? All right. All right. Thank you very much. That seems to be a kind of special question, really. Especially because today, after two years in Nigeria, it's more difficult to be a real journalist because of the existing challenges. We already talked about that some of these are no longer respected as they ought to be. I mean, the professional needs to be approached, the professional prestige, something that we wanted to become. Something we had hired to yield a path. But in this today, everybody wants to see a journalist as the one that's trying to do so. So first of all, I think for what a journalist needs to do, from those that we have read, we have seen in the past at the early age, I realize that number one policy of a journalist is college. You know, you have to be somebody who is fearless, who is willing to challenge the target group, who is willing to put in the work regardless of who of his God. Nevertheless, this was not too of a situation where we were even responsible like a lot of people do today because they realized today that most people say they are journalists. They are just looking for contracts, you know, to fill their social media pages, so that viewers can come. And this is all yet to work. There could be any motion. Yes, so we are looking at a situation where a journalist that's just told, okay, I talked about college, I think college comes back on. The fact that somebody who wants to be a journalist that is recognized that, you know, in half a day, he is here with you. You must be standing in your heart to be so clear, to love to you. And it's good. You know, that's the fact that a liar will continue to throw his profile into jeopardy. Liars will continue to make it difficult, you know, for this profession to take its role. So yes, so you have to be so full, you know, you have to stick to it. If you are stuck out to it, then most decimately the other ingredients, which we talked about, college will now come up. If you cannot begin to talk about college, you also need to be courageous. Then, of course, the trade, I mean, that is the fire also is vital part of this whole thing. So yes, I talked about speaking the truth, you know, in society are not college. I just don't know how you speak the truth and be courageous when he who pays the piper is dictating a different tune. Like you pointed out. One of the problems of the Nigerian press now is that the ownership structure. And don't forget that many journalists are trying to make a name. Everybody wants to be known. Like somebody who has spent all his life in the newspaper writing, wants to go into broadcasting and start doing it so that everybody will seem as a superstar. Then there is this thing called the broadcast code. He doesn't respect it because he is not coming from that perspective. And don't forget again, journalism became a very vital weapon in the last days of the military. Gorilla journalism was the in thing. Yes, everybody must be held. Unfortunately, we have returned to democracies since 1999. What we have in the media is more of partisanship than politics. Even the political parties themselves are not what you could call them. How many of them have shadow cabinet for every government? How many of them are run by members' subscription? No. In the Second Republic, we are the European. Every member pays to be a member. To run the party. Even now, those parties, what do we have? The moneybags have ejected. Somebody has put his money somewhere. Yes, his heart must be there. You now complain that they are imposing candidates. Why would they not impose candidates? The parties are not owned by members. They are owned and controlled by select few. And in the same place, in the same way, the Nigerian press itself has lost its professional value because how many people are actually on the newsstands today? Everything is on the web. Everybody wants to have an online tabloid. What do you mean, online tabloid? It doesn't make sense. Yes, that would tell you the confession and the profession itself. Everybody is trying to, like the Americans would say, one of these. Everybody wants to be seen as doing it. But let's cast our mind back into the polity itself. Even the populace, the voters themselves, do they want to be enlightened or do they want to be empowered? Good question. People themselves, the press is fighting for. You can't fight for somebody who takes the light and being enslaved. Somebody is enjoying being enslaved because of the pecuniary gains. You are not trying to say, this is this way. Some journalists today, you must not say something about your candidates. And we're talking about history and journalism having the same focus of objectivity. How can you be objective when your own principles are the mortgage? You have journalists that cannot write anything that affects or in any way exposes the shortcomings of the owners of their own. Who is to blame now? It's a global thing. Most of the media houses that are being, we're talking Nigeria now. Most of the media houses in Nigeria are owned by politicians, senators. These are people who have interests. And when you're receiving your appointment letter, it will be said to you that I will go open this place because of your pay. So are you ready to work or not? And then you also have your integrity as a journalist. Thank you very much. Who is to blame? How do you strike a balance? People are hungry. They need jobs to take care of their family. And they have a principal who is breathing down their necks to write and put up radio programs, TV shows to streamline their own interests. Because that is where we got it wrong in the first place. Letting interest be cloud what should have been very open if I'm to use that word. So how do we get it right now? What should we put in place to make it right? You are just saying it. Let me begin answering this question. But first of all, let me just say, May the souls of those who have put in their all for the interests of the people rest in peace. I remember Delegua, for instance. I remember Baguada Kaltu that we have his boss in the press center in Alousa was named after him. And so many other journalists that did not mind, they even paid the Supreme Prize for the sake of the people. And like Dr. said, the people also should be ready to leave the enslavement. But Wenger, in the small time, okay, maybe Wenger is not there anymore. But in the small time that we have, like she asked, what can we start to do? We are talking about... Yes, because what is... 2023 is coming. 2023 is here already. It's not that it's coming, it's here already. And unfortunately, it is not different from 2015, 2019. Even it's not different from 1999. In 1999, we came in with a lot of noise making about those we thought fought for. The return of democracy. Fine. What we got was a return to civil rule. It is the dramatist person that has changed. Yeah, I really never thought about that. Civil rule is unnecessary. Civil rule does not mean democracy. Many of those who we used to call as pro-democracy or democratic activists of those days, they are so intolerant of democratic values nowadays. If you criticize somebody, say, oh, because you don't belong to us. If I don't belong to you, it does not mean I'm against you. You have not had journalists that they are ready to make it clear that this is my page. I own the contents. And everything I say there must be, if you don't like it, it's off. And when you come to look at it, she mentioned the thing that is missing in all aspects of our politics, even among the political class, in the parties, even the party followers, to integrity. I remember somebody who wanted to contest in one of the local governments of Lagos. When he got there, he said he wants to meet the party leaders, my leader, my leader. When he got to the my leader, he knew what he used, who was scampering around the my leader and said, are you coming to spend for us? Does he have money to spend? Must everything be money? We beam the political class for turning everything around. But the political class does not do all the voting. Somebody comes into the room and will ensure that in my constituency, we will vote for you. You can only speak about your own vote. It's going to be a secret ballot for God's sake. You can only speak about your own vote. You will not go there with everybody. And unfortunately, we have become a society that has so we have even brought ourselves down. Everything is money, but it's not money. Sometimes the voters will start complaining. We vote for them. We know we cannot see them. Why do you want to see them? They are paid for your votes. Maybe in some places, a T-shirt, a face cap, and $2,000. And that's your earning. That's your benefits of democracy or gains of democracy. Let's say for the next four years. And you are so daft that in the next four years, they come back and play the same game with you. Our mothers have become cheerleaders of political rallies. Political parties themselves don't know where they exist. Why would they know? They don't know because the group, the interest, the interest group there will tell you what the after is. The ones who want to corner power. How many people are asking for, asking politicians what is your manifesto? Ask them some party members today. What is your party's stand on social issues? They don't know it. Because we are running short of time, there is a part of this conversation I want to really touch. And that is the part where journalists do not feel safe. That question comes from, I think it was last week that President Salva Kier was in the news and he wore himself. And I just saw on social media yesterday that all the journalists that reported that incident have been missing one after another. And most of them have been found, some of them have been found dead. And this is not a strange story to journalists all over the world. That should be expected in that kind of system as more of a military leadership. Well, it is more of a military leadership but then a journalist was killed in America. In America sometime in August because of a report that he made. And we've heard journalists lose their lives in different countries in Africa. Where I'm going with this conversation is we're looking at journalism and journalists and their roles in the upcoming 2023 elections. 2023 elections aside. There are people in this country who love their job. They want to really do it to the core but they are afraid for their life. And it has become a general issue for journalists all over the world. How do you strike the difference between these core people who want to do their jobs but they are afraid? And even when they go ahead to do it, they die. They lose their life or they lose their jobs. You make a report and you're coming back to the office and you're meeting your sack letter from your principal because of a good job that you did. That you should be applauded for. Please, make it make sense. Make it easier for people to understand. I think for any profession that has to do with the public now, the media inclusive is particularly in this part of the world. You said we can talk local. Everything is local. It's like working in a minefield. We are talking of insecurity. When a real journalist that sets to expose what's actually behind that insecurity tries to be so professional and wants to put his integrity, you find out that what he has just done is just laid, just signed his own death warrant. But then you can do it by, like I said, it's working in a minefield. You have to be very careful. But it's not every time that God will send an angel to protect you. You can protect yourself. Don't compromise your principles and don't try to throw yourself before a gun because you want to be a hero. The good heroes are dead and they are six feet down. And we can still talk about it without being too blunt to attract the fear of those youth who think you are against them. The political class, actually, I'll tell you this. Some of them wouldn't have been known, wouldn't have been where they are without the journalists. But because you are building a relationship, sometimes it is a misconstrued ass living in a begging situation. You are begging for a condolence or you are begging for empowerment. You can still do it, maintain your principle. Yes, objectivity is difficult to attain, but you can work closer to it without injuring the intention of the other party. And I think some of us journalists need to understand that being evasive, sometimes keeping to yourself or being yourself. Your organization has not paid you. That does not explain why you have to compromise your principles and take pitans from people. And you need to see some journalists argue. Even when they are paid, they say, so process my candidates. That's your business, that's your private business. Whoever is your candidate is your business. Keep it to yourself. You are entitled to it. But many of us are not seeing that way. Maybe we should try to just, for some time, keep making attempts at objectivity. I understand BINGA is still standing by. BINGA, sorry for that small hitch that took you off. But we hear that there are plans by the National Assembly to bring a better welfare package for journalists. If you have insight to this, can you please just let us know. I'm not saying it's going to affect the world. It sounds like a very good news. I think we must also know that the greater percentage of media entrepreneurs are there to pay entrepreneurs. So there are private individuals employed that have put their money into this business. So I think that's one of the things that even makes the recognition a bit difficult to do. Because you also want to see businesses try. But there's no doubt, I think the responsibility of government basically is to make sure that the laws are in place. And that there is a follow-up to ensure that these laws are being followed. So there is a media organisation. We have the broadcasting code. We have the Nigerian Broadcasting Commission that is in charge of regulating the activities of journalists and media houses in the country. If all of these organisations can look at, for example, I've seen several media organisations being fined for saying certain things, for staring up a policy with certain comments and all that. If they can do that, then they should also be concerned with the welfare of journalists. If it's not today that we hear political statements, because you feel that these people are doing their bidding at this time. What happens when the journalist actually decides to do his job with the statements? Will this be the same? Of course, we know the answer is no. So when the journalist is doing everything and it's in favour of the politicians, well, oh, just lifesavers, they are good. But when it is not in their favour when the stories that they intend to cover, when they are being covered by journalists there, journalists are bad people. So I think, first of all, to show that the National Assembly, I mean, that movement is a good movement. It sounds really good. But for us to know that, yes, the National Assembly, the political class, really means business, I would like that the media is properly regulated and that journalists' welfare is being taken care of. I think they should move ahead to make a law on that. And, you know, we are not lacking in laws in Nigeria, but they should also see that there is enforcement to this law. So if a media practitioner is supposed to earn a soul and soul, so at entrance level, this is what the person should get and these are the other benefits that should come with what this person is taking. I mean, all of that should be put into place. A lot of the reason, you know, I operate from Abuja and sometimes you go out there and you see microphones, you see all sorts of people everywhere and you accept, I mean journalists, everybody is journalists. I understand that we are enterprising in Nigeria, you know, we are entrepreneurial because the situation makes it so. I mean the economic situation of the country. If these people are properly checked, if they have the skill, is it possible to have a law that says, okay, you have the skill, go and get this training within this time frame. And if you are able to get this training, you know, you are getting into a system where you are getting such and such and such rewards, then we can begin to now trust the quality of reports that go out there. We can begin to trust the quality of our news, you know, and the media in general. Well, test of all, it begins with you. Time begins with the government. If we are sure that we really want to have a thriving media sector in Nigeria, then the right law has to be put into place. And for the right law to be put into place, it has to be legislated. I'm happy, you know, that this move actually started with the National Assembly talking about wanting to increase the remuneration. It shouldn't end with those who work with government alone. It should be spread all across. Media entrepreneurs should be brought to the table and they should have these conversations with them. If you are going to do this, we won't stop you. We want the sector to develop in Nigeria. But we want quality news, you know. Some people don't even listen to Nigeria news because they believe it is shoddy. They believe it is not well researched. How much do we put into research, for example? How much is available for journalists to put into research? Are there situations where somebody has to report, you know, or find a story in a particular place that he finds a... But there's no project for him to run it. Is it a security threat and all that now? This person is unwilling to say... I think that the audio quality... The audio has really gotten... Why didn't he make his point already? Any law that cannot be... It's no law. And like I said, Nigeria is a country where... The number of laws are not problems in Nigeria. It's the enforcements. Yes. And if you ever go on the road, you will see that laws are just words of mouth. You see a lot of lawlessness, but those who are supposed to enforce laws themselves. So if those who are supposed to enforce laws are lawless, what will you have in your society? Well, I think this conversation has gone long. We are trying to just accelerate some of the challenges that media houses, journalists, especially, who write about what is happening in the society face in an attempt to do what they're supposed to do. And if we face this, that means that, okay, now everybody's talking about freedom of speech. Freedom of expression and all that. So everybody can bring news. But have some integrity while you're doing it. Have some level of truthfulness while you're doing it. Have some level of objectivity while you're doing it. And like they say, if you see something, say something. But say it right. Don't say it because you're biased or anything. So whenever you blame us, the media houses, and us, the journalists, know also that you have a role to play because right now we are all doing this work. For us who are professionals, maybe it's to look at whatever is put out there and see the truth of it all. Because now everybody likes sensational news. Everybody wants it sharp. The attention span has gone down so much because of that, even the research, even if it's funded, a lot of people might not read the story that gives them the real picture to whatever is happening. But we will keep doing our best, hoping that you will do your best as well. 2023 is here, like Dr. said. And, well, I think that's... We just have to drop it there for now. We will keep doing what we are doing. Because we have no other country but Nigeria. Thank you so much, Dr. for coming on the show today. Thank you very much. So we'll take a short break. We return with the news and then after the news we conclude the show for today. Stay with us.