 Yeah, welcome back to Think Tech. I'm Jay Fidel. We have Community Matters today. And we're going to talk with Bob Toyofuku, who is the founder and CEO and chief honcho. Can I say that? And Pacific Law Institute. And we're talking today about, you know, we'd like to get to know what it's doing. We'd like to get to know some of the programs that you have done, will do, and how they affect the members of the bar and the members of the public. Welcome to the show, Bob. Thank you very much, Jay. My pleasure. So let's talk about you first, because, I mean, I know you since the early 70s, and you actually haven't changed. You have that same style, that same, you know, disposition that you did way, way back then, and all the things you've done since, you know, you've practiced law, you've done lobbying, you've done a lot of CLE. In fact, in the 70s, the 80s, and the 90s, you were the major source of continuing legal education for the whole bar association. You had a magic, you know, the magic touch. But can you talk about, you know, where you are now, where you're going with Pacific Law Institute? Well, you know, Jay, in the last five years or so, or maybe a little more, I have been so busy at the legislature in government affairs and lobbying that I haven't had much of a chance to design and put on different continuing legal education seminars, except for the trainings I do every year for the court annex arbitration program. And of course, you know that in September, we did one live virtually with you, which was very, very successful. We had more attendees at that seminar and the two replays than we have ever had doing it in person. We ended up, Jay, with 445 people, attorneys, arbitrators logging in to watch the program. So that was very satisfying for me. But... It was a very good program, Bob. It was really excellent. It was engaging, it was interesting, and it taught the lawyers and arbitrators who were watching, you know, how things had changed and how they could catch up on the various dynamics that were going on about COVID. You know, that's the first virtual type seminar I've ever done. And I have always thought about doing webinar type seminars, videotaping the speakers and then playing it on a website somewhere. And never did get around to it. And hooking up with you and Think Tech really energized me about doing more programs because it really takes away a lot of the administrative, I mean, the functional things that you need to do. Rent the place at the hotel, set that up, send out the brochures. Everything is changed with technology. So, you know, in the past year, I've done hundreds of continuing legal education seminars and I have done different types of seminars as well, although using primarily lawyers or legislators. So, since we did this arbitration training, I got a, well, can I use the word energized? And so I am going to do a continuing legal education seminar in December with you on legal ethics. And the Supreme Court rules require that all attorneys that are licensed and active get three continuing legal education credits, CLE credits every year. And one of those credits every three years must be in ethics or professional responsibility. So I decided to at least put on a course in December in case certain attorneys do not have that one credit of legal ethics. So that's gonna be with Think Tech on December 11th. And then moving forward, Jay, you know that I am planning to do a course for the public really, not just for lawyers, on how to access and lobby at the 2021 legislative session. The Capitol is still closed. It's unclear at this moment how they are going to conduct the session. Is the timetable gonna be changed? How are we going to testify? Is it all gonna be virtual? And how is that gonna be handled? Is there gonna be a time limit? If we do want to meet personally with any legislator, can we do that? You know, make an appointment ahead of time. Do we have to be cleared before we go to the Capitol? There's so many questions. So probably in early January that's scheduled with you, hopefully somewhere around January 8th or so. And I have three legislators, two from the House, one from the Senate. And I'm waiting for the Ways and Means Chair to call me to see if he's available to participate. And I have the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate to make some introductory remarks. Well, you know, just like the arbitrator program that you did a few weeks ago, you know, that has to wrap around, I'm sure it will wrap around the possibility of a virtual session and therefore a virtual testimony and therefore virtual lobbying. I can easily see a situation where you call up a legislator and say I'm a lobbyist. I would like to talk to you about a given bill. Let's make a Zoom meeting and we'll have our discussion. And, you know, I don't think people have done that up to this point, but that does present itself. It certainly has swept through the arbitration proceedings. And now I expect it may sweep through the legislator proceedings just the same way. Oh, yes. And you know, one of the things that I had mentioned to certain legislators several years ago, let's see, seven years ago is that because the neighbor island individuals who want to testify, you know, they have to fly into Honolulu and that's costly, it takes time, they have to wait around. And when I was in Alaska seven years ago, I visited the state capital in Juneau and they had a system, not Zoom and not video, but audio. So somebody from Fairbanks, which is, you know, like, I don't know how many hours away, you know, either by car or plane, they could call in at a certain time. And so I talked to certain legislators about thinking about setting something like that up for the neighbor islands. And not only neighbor islands. Somebody from Waianae who can't get in very easily, they're not in central Honolulu can call in. So anyway, long story short, now with the pandemic and the capital being closed, there is no choice but to do it either audio or video by Zoom or some other platform. So that's gonna be, I think, the standard. Yeah, and, you know, just as it happens in the legislature, there's also an issue about all these courts and boards and commissions and committees and what have you all over state government, you know, which call for participation, presence, testimony. And I remember I served on a couple of boards that were in a big island and the whole troop would get on a plane in the morning from Oahu, fly over to the big island and then fly back with a huge waste of money. And they did not have either A, the technology, you know, or bring people together by electronic means, nor was the statute ready for them on sunshine. It wasn't clear that how to do that on sunshine. It may require further legislation to clear this up in terms of commissions and boards and committees and the like that otherwise are required to comply with sunshine. But I suggest to you, Bob, it isn't only the inner workings of the legislature that, you know, are in a transition over COVID. It's the whole state government and city government that's gonna have to, that will probably benefit by using Zoom. Well, absolutely. And Jay, after we did the arbitration seminar, people, attorneys talked to me and said, you know, it's gonna change legal practice as well because instead of flying to say Los Angeles to take a deposition, they're gonna do it by Zoom. And, you know, it's gonna save money and it's gonna save time. And I think it will be just as effective. The other area that I think more and more organizations in a health area looking at is telemedicine, telehealth. We have looked at that for years here because of the neighbor islands. And I think now it will expand. You know, you have to have certain protocols in place but then I think it will definitely start to take off. Yeah, and these things will, they will continue after COVID is reduced. I mean, even now you go to HPH or Kaiser or Queens and, you know, you can have telemedicine. It's limited, but you can have telemedicine. And I agree with you as time goes forward and you comply with the protocols and they develop systems and best practices. We're gonna do more and more medicine, more and more personal medicine, seeing doctors and the like electronically. Oh yeah, I think so. I think so, and you know, all the records and everything now are all done electronically. Yeah. So, you know, it's just a matter of time before you perfect certain things and move forward using technology. So, you know, I think this is the right time. This is a perfect inflection point for Pacific Law Institute. You know, it's very important that lawyers and all licensed professionals stay current on their topics. You know, I think for a long time it wasn't required and now it's required and that's a good thing. And you wanna know when you go see a lawyer that he's, you know, at least or she has had some exposure to the latest developments and, you know, can wrap around, you know, changes in the law. And the only way to do that is the training. That's why CLE is so important, not only to the lawyers, but to the public. See, I was involved in continuing legal education, CLE, since 1977. I went up to the law school to teach and I kind of left my private practice of law and I went up there to teach a first year course and more specifically to set up the Hawaii Institute for Continuing Legal Education. And so I ran and operated that Institute for, let's see, about five years and developed all these different courses, developed a little, what I call manuals and so let's assume I did a seminar on collection law. I was there. You were, that's right, I was gonna say and you were a panelist. And so we created a little handout which had forms in it and little explanations and attorneys loved it because I knew from private practice that a lot of attorneys knew how to file a complaint or submit an answer. But after they got a judgment, they were a little fuzzy on how to collect it. And remember we spent time on garnishment, attachment, execution and we had forms and that was a big hit. I remember that first seminar. That was really, really great. But- It was bread and butter is what it was. It's all bread and butter, real estate transactions and a divorce law, how to draft the will and trust. You know, all those basic things that a solo practitioner especially for a small firm needed to know. So that's what I concentrated on. And so Hickel, Hawaii Institute for CLE really became self-supporting. And then after five years, I left to, I still love education but I left to work for then Congressman C. Seftel and for just a little over two years. And then after that, I started lobbying just my chance and in 1984. So I started lobbying for the trial lawyers and then I formed Pacific Law Institute at the same time so I could continue doing seminars because I really enjoyed the education part of, you know. Well, you're a hands-on educator. I mean, you know, a lot of these organizations like from the mainland, you know, they'll say, go talk about torts. You're gonna get it, you know, down there and you're gonna tell them what in torts to talk about and what points to cover, what issues to, you know, address. And this is very valuable because the end of the day, it's a much better program that way. And I think, you know, Jay, you know, I developed the program. I talked to the panelists, I choose, get their input. But I have, you know, I always consider myself a jack of all trades, master of none in the law. So I have all these experts, you know, telling me certain things. And then I formulate the program, create the program. And then I do a script, you know, by time and I'm the moderator. So I followed the script. They can follow it, but it's meant as a guideline, not a real tightly controlled type of presentation. And so that works because I have to go back a little bit, a little war story. One of the first seminars I did was on divorce law and when I was at the law school at Hickle. And I had some of the best divorce attorneys on the panel. And I said, we need to do a rehearsal. I actually did a rehearsal with one of the law students videotaping so they could see how they perform. You know, I had a little more time with you at that time. Anyway, I said, you know, we need to spend a little time on jurisdiction and venue. You know what that is anyway. And the panelist, the expert says, no, we don't need to do that. I said, well, believe me, it would be good to spend a little time on that because we don't know who's gonna be watching live. And you know, it's important. That's a basic step one. Well, the panelists couldn't agree on all of the law. And that was so funny. So the law student, you know, I knew, I said, turn the camera off because they're arguing up there as to what the law was. And I said to myself, you know, that this is a very valuable lesson to, you know, I felt like at least I was on the right track anyway. So it was kind of fun. But you've been through the wars on so many programs, Bob. I mean, everybody, and it was, a lot of it was in Waikiki hotels for a long time and other venues, but now, you know, it's different now. And it's, you know, it all was revealed to me anyway in that arbitration program a few weeks ago, how much you can do with guests, experts that are all over the state who never even have to stand up to appear. It's easier. You know, moving forward, and Jay, you and I have, well, I've talked to you a little bit about it. I'd like to do some other courses, not only for attorneys, but for the public, you know, as a public service. And I think that, you know, I have enough background in certain areas that I could moderate it and I create the program anyway. So in March of next year, I think about doing a legislative update at the midpoint, you know, to inform the public of what's out there, what's on the table, what could pass, what will not pass, you know, what is the state of the financial condition of the state? And I'll get the best legislators to be on the panel. And then at the end of the session in May, maybe I'll do a wrap up. It doesn't have to be long, could be an hour or hour and a half at the most, you know, and I use legislators and they're the ones that talk, I'll lead them on. So those are some of the things that I think about. And one of the things I've always been interested in Jay is climate change for a long time. And, you know, I dealt with Ford Pujigami who was the chief of staff at one point for Governor Ege and was the director of the department of transportation and just a very knowledgeable person and very a doer. He gets it. So he and I talked about climate change a little bit because of the roads. I asked him, what's going to happen to the roads? And, you know, we had just an open discussion and, you know, the question came up whether the roads have to be moved at one point. You know, I'm talking about the North Shore, especially. Yeah. And, you know, that's a serious issue because of the cost involved. And some people feel even Kalana Ono only highway going to Hawaii Kai, depending upon which year we're talking about 40 years from now, the water may become right up to the road. Yeah. You know, who knows, right? Yeah, but I mean, the public may not be fully apprised. The public may not realize this will affect them and their property. And so a discussion, a public discussion over this issue is very important. And it is ultimately a matter of law. And I think that if the public is aware, then they will ask the legislature and the administration, hey, you've got to do something about this, you know? And because it's happening, it just is happening. And, but that's one area that, you know, I kind of like to do a hour half program on getting experts and you can get experts from the mainland. Sure. They don't have to stand up either. No. Well, you're connected to all these judges and law school deans and professors all over the country, Bob. I mean, these years have connected you everywhere and strikes me that if you want to do a program with national experts on issues that are either local where we can learn from other places or national issues that we should learn from other places, we can do that. You can do that because of your, you know, your familiarity with not only the issues, but the people. Yeah, and, you know, Jay, I'm still a commissioner on the Uniform Law Commission. I'm a life member now. And there's a wealth of talent in that conference, in that Uniform Law Commission. Attorneys, academics, judges, you know, are from different states and one person I always wanted to bring here is Robert Stein, who was Dean of the University of Minnesota School of Law and also was the executive director of the American Bar Association for many, many years. And it's just such a talented, smart, brilliant guy. And he has the course on the great cases that were decided by the Supreme Court going way back to the present time. And I've listened to his course because he did a couple of hours at our annual conference and it was just so fascinating. So I never could get him out here, excuse me, I never could get him out here, Jay, because he's so busy, you know, he goes to Europe, he goes here, he lectures all over the place. He's familiar with several United States Supreme Court justices and anyway. So it's really terrific. And a long, long time ago, I dealt with Professor Larry Tribe from Harvard. I remember. And you know, like, you remember? He's an incredible lawyer. Oh, just an amazing guy. And so like these are some of the people that we now can hopefully get because they don't have to necessarily fly here although they would like to, you know, to do a program. Well, you know, a thinking of John Drew Binsky, who was on our three digit program a few years ago, that is lawyers who had bar numbers of less than 1,000, you know, the older generation. And one of them was John Drew Binsky, who has passed since. And his thing was, gee whiz, if the Supreme Court of the state or the United States Supreme Court, you know, makes a decision, we ought to have a public discussion of that. Is it good? Is it bad? How did they reason it? What's the result? What's the effect? Very valuable discussions. And although we get some of that in the press, we never get drilled down in the press. And so unless you read professional journals. And so, you know, one of the things that I'm hoping you will do is have panels of these, you know, high level lawyers like Larry Tribe or any number of law school deans and professors around the country, who can speak to the national issues, can speak to cases that are decided in, you know, in appellate courts on the mainland and educated our people here and elsewhere exactly how the law is doing these days. I think I call that what, C-P-L-E, continuing public legal education. Jay, that would be a very interesting series. You don't have to do it every month. You can do it once a quarter even, four times a year, because as the cases come up by the Hawaii State Supreme Court, or even the Intermediate Court of Appeals, you could pick one case or two and I have a discussion on them and the policy impact and why the court decided it that way. It'd be very interesting for lawyers. And that actually, lawyers would, I think, log on, especially if we gave them credit, C-L-E credit for that. What about non-lawyers? If you have a C-L-E program, continuing legal education ostensibly for lawyers, and I'm not a lawyer, maybe an aspiring lawyer, either a law student or a student of the law, sort of thing, can I come to her? Oh yeah, you can log on. The only time that there's any restriction because of the nature of the program, the Court of Next Arbitration Program trainings that we did are only for arbitrators, not for the general legal population. Well, let's assume I did a course on wills and trusts, right? Doesn't have to be for lawyers. It could be for the general public. Say take auto insurance. A lot of people don't understand auto insurance, the different parts, what you should get, what you should definitely get and why it's important. And that would be a public course, but if I do it for free, right? And an attorney wants to log on, that's fine too, because a lot of attorneys may not know either. Yeah, well, we live in a complex society. It's more complex all the time. And given the changes in our national government and the changes in Congress, the changes in the state legislature, we're gonna see more dynamic all the time. And the average person really has to follow that, because at the end of the day, it means dollars and cents and quality of life and all that. We all have to be interested in what government is doing and what the law is doing and how it's changing. So I think there's a huge amount of material out there for you, Bob. And I think a lot of people are motivated to know about it. Yeah. Well, Jay, I think we're probably close to the end. I wanna thank you for having me on to just expound a little bit on Pacific Law Institute. And I'm looking forward to doing the seminars that are coming up and many more seminars and public forums, so to speak, in 2021. Well, Bob, we're delighted that you're working with us. We're delighted to have you on our shows and cover your seminars and educational programs. On the other hand, I've been a student of your programs since the 70s, so nothing has changed. You have a way of looking at things, you have a way of teaching, you have a special skill. And I think it's very valuable to the community. And I just wanna compliment you on your interest in educating people and your skill in doing that. Not only lawyers, but judges, legislators, the whole community, and you are the center man. Thank you, Bob. Bob Toyafuku, the founder, president, and the leader of Pacific Law Institute. Thank you so much for coming on. I hope to see you soon. I know I'll see you soon. Yes, thanks a lot, Jay. Aloha.