 Four orders of Basonjo, Yara Dua, Jonathan and Bohari governments to account for five billion Naira Abathe loot. And Yerima urges the president to negotiate with potential bandits. This is cross-policy, a Naira-Maria project. The Federal High Court sitting in Abuja in a landmark judgment has ordered the disclosure of the spending of details of about five billion U.S. dollars Abathe loot by the government of former president Rishabh Mour Basonjo and former president Umar Mosa Yara Dua, Dr Jonathan and the Muhammad Abu-Hari administration. Now the court ordered the government of President Bohari to disclose the exact amount of money stolen by the general Abathe and Nigeria. The total amount of the Abathe loot recovered and all would be went signed on the same day by government of the former president of Basonjo, Yara Dua, Jonathan and Bohari. Well joining us to discuss this is Kola Wali Udwandari. He's the former deputy director well he is actually the deputy director of CERA. Thank you so much Kola Wali for joining us. I don't know who made me former but forgive that mistake. Thank you for joining us. Yes let's start by looking at this landmark judgment. A lot of Nigerians have continuously asked questions about this judgment rather the case of the Abathe loot recovery. Every single time we see several amounts of monies plastered on the faces of newspapers and we wonder where these monies are what they've been put to use for. Although under the Bohari administration we're told that some of those monies were going into infrastructure development but for those of you who work with CERA have you been able to follow the money or is that the reason why you went to court? Salwa Dari can you hear me? Yes I can hear you. For CERA the inability to properly track and make government account for the Abathe loot is what led to that we had sent to the government in 2020 and by government I mean the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Finance. It was a failure to respond to the freedom of information request that led to the lawsuit which of course the court has now granted the reliefs of CERA and has now become the judgment of court. And it's very important to understand it is not enough for the government and by this I mean the various administration to just mention the lumps of importance playing to Nigerians how these funds, how it is important that government also demonstrate to Nigerians that government has put in place transparency and accountability mechanisms to ensure that these funds don't end up the way they were in the first place in private parts and we need to understand that Nigerians are victims of this threat. All right I'm sorry it's more speed and network glitch I was speaking about the importance of having government convince Nigerians that these funds have been transparency and been managing the interest of Nigerians and that is what we have not seen over the years from 1999 that we've been having various return for Bacha Lout. Government is yet to demonstrate that transparency and accountability in the use and management of these funds and so that also raises the very important question how much what is the exact amount of their Bacha Lout has been recovered what has been the role of the World Bank, the HME for other international agencies in the recoveries of this loan and the recovery of this of the Lout pardon me I have here any terms and agreement that Nigeria has signed on through that may prevent Nigerians directly benefiting from this Lout. Those are important questions that government must answer and it is just natural it's part of democracy and good governance these are in these are details that government should ideally proactively disclose under the Freedom of Information Act which unfortunately they didn't do which is what led to this suit and now we have a judgment that the government should will be. Now as optimistic as I and every other Nigerian would be asked to you know the judgment and what it has said these are governments who have left power of course they no longer have immunity so they're answerable one way or the other to the court but if these people when they were empowered did not feel the need to under the FOI explain to us what these monies were used for we were always hearing window dressing kinds of responses who's to say that now they would respect you know the judgment of the court. The primary parties to this suit the the ministry of finance and the ministry of justice those are the two respondents in the suit that were filed in court and the necessity for these two parties they played key roles representing the government of the engagements with those countries where those funds are reported therefore to bring the funds and so naturally they were the recipients of the Freedom of Information Request and subsequently the respondents in the suit so the fact that previous administrations that gone does not preclude these ministries of government which of course are part of the continuum of government to have record and details of these transactions and really this is not a tall order it is very simple the ministry of finance of course still exists the ministry of justice still exists and so they must have details of the roles we played the funds that are coming who is getting what when and now we are the protest situated what are the modernities for cities in those protests what is the startups of those projects which companies are in those protests and these are all details that should government should have we are procurement laws just because the president has left office does not stop the governance it does not stop the work of governance so actually this information I believe exists it is just the willingness of government that to provide information to the public so talking about willingness now we have seen that of course now the tune of administration is in power and even though we're yet to see the least of ministers and people who would head these ministry departments or agencies but then there are permanent secretaries and directors just as you said in the finance department and in the you know the department of justice and I'm thinking to myself how accountable will this government make sure of you know in terms of this judgment again because you talked about the will power of the then administrations now we have a new administration there's a new sheriff in town who's to say again I ask that question sparingly if these people will be able to adhere to the judgment and show up with the papers point us in the direction that we want them to go just as you said earlier we have the FOI we always make reference to the FOI but how easy was it for us to even access any information even when we had the FOI at our disposal it is rather unfortunate that our experience of governance over the years particularly since the return of democracy or a brand of democracy in 1999 has led us to this dysfunctional view of governance we should not even be talking about what governments would do with another of course in the same democracy orders of court are sacrosanct whether no matter how the sounds they should be obeyed and so in this instance the executive headed by the president has no choice but to direct those ministries and against a government who are parties in the suits will be the orders of court and for ideally we need not record to court to even have these ministries who are to be disclosed this informant or we've gone to court these ministries participated in a trial they defended the suit now they have lost. Colour what they pardoned me the reason why I know that normally just as you've said we should not be having this kind of conversation we should not have to be asking these kinds of questions but unfortunately just as you said. To publish and make them available in the practical terms are illegal to allow for any reason in law why they should not repeat this judgment then. Okay Colour I'm sorry for the you know the you know the information unless of course there is something more than it's there. Yeah so still talking about that and let me rephrase my question again you have said that on a normal day we should not be having these kinds of conversations querying whether governments ministries departments or agencies will adhere to a court or judgment or if you know we will even have them answer to us in any way but this is the situation of things we have seen you and I I mean we know spare up for all kinds of lawsuits asking for accountability and in every different in the different aspects of our economy but we've also failed to see government answer to those you know court cases or even show up or even do anything in that regard hence my question again and again because if we if you go to court and you obtain a judgment you expect that these ministries would have here immediately fall you know into place and begin to do the net the need for but because we find ourselves in a country such as this and a democracy that is somewhat skewed and a judiciary that we really can't trust unfortunately I hate to say this but many people used to regard the judiciary as the last hope of the common man but many might not necessarily be able to you know trust the judiciary but thank goodness the process has said this is what it is but can we trust the people we call our leaders to deliver on the same dividends of democracy that we say that we are operating under that's why I asked that question in the first place it's a plus politics and we're still being joined by Palaweli Uluwadari he is the deputy director of CERAP Palaweli before we lost that connection with you um you and I were you know drawing about the fact that it's because of the situation we find ourselves in and the democratic the so-called democracy that we have in Nigeria and how it's been operated by different governments this is why we're query if you know this judgment holds any weight and if we would see head's roll at the end of the day what does CERAP hope to get out of this aside from the fact that the court's judgment is out and the court hopes that these ministries these two ministries um would one way or the other be able to tender some form of evidence to prove that these monies were used if they were used in any way and if there have been any progress in the infrastructural development that these monies have been channeled to but aside from that what does CERAP hope to see at the end of the day do we hope to see head's roll do we hope to see people who have one way or the other diverted government funds go to jail or face trial what is what's what's in it for CERAP at the end of the day the aim of the lawsuit and the request that led to it um is transmission i kind of wasn't still is transmission accountability and it was done in public interest the aim is to ensure that Nigerians take up this advocacy as part of the advocacy for good governance and democracy and make these demands consistently it means that's issues of transparency account and accountability like this remains on the front bone of public discourse and people begin to talk about it and that ensures that government in response to the people since democracy is always about the people and that also means there will be a larger impact that if any of those funds were to come in under the Tenubu administration naturally those questions will also be asked of this administration subsequently and ensure that government does the right and CERAP has filed a lawsuit of public interest the judges have given judgment now it's left for the people who believe in democracy to make government do the right thing well let's hope yes hoping that government will do the right thing and then there's a lot that's that's ahead of the Tenubu administration and many eyes are on them to see if corruption will be dealt with as they have promised Kola Waliluadari is deputy director of CERAP and we want to thank you for joining us on the show tonight thank you very much we'll be talking about putting an end to Banditry and of course terrorism in Nigeria former governor Yomah has some ideas on how the Tenubu administration can deal with it we'll be right back after this break