 All right. I'll just first start by saying thank you so much and welcome to you who, those of you who've joined us here at the forum. And if you have not gotten a headset, please grab one because we'll be speaking both in English and Chinese for this session. And you'll want to understand everything that's being said. So please grab a headset if you have one. And please also refrain from using your device because that is distracting to the people near you who are trying to follow along in both languages. Let's see. So we're ready? We're ready. Thanks also for those of you who are joining us over the internet all around the world. So we're here to talk about fisheries and aquaculture and the future of sustainability and fisheries and aquaculture. I'll first introduce myself and the panel. We will have a discussion about the topic for maybe about half of the session, two thirds of the session, and then we'll open up the topic to questions from the audience. When you ask us a question, please say who you are and where you're from as well. All right, let's do this. So thanks very much for joining us again. I'm Kristen Marhaver. I'm going to be the moderator today. I'm a marine biologist running a research lab in the Southern Caribbean at a research station called Karmabi. It's basically a marine biological institute on the island of Kurosawa in the Southern Caribbean. And my specialty is trying to figure out how to help corals grow and rebuild coral reefs and how to assess their health and how to understand what they need in order to thrive and recover in the seas of the future. So I think a lot about growing juvenile organisms and assessing the health of organisms. And those are actually the areas of expertise of our panelists here today. So our panelists to my left is Mr. Wu Hougang. He is the chair and president of Zoneco Group, which is a major fisheries enterprise here in China. It is the largest producer of scallops in the entire country. And they're a specialist in the reproduction and the seeding and the harvest, the processing of scallops and other seafood. And they also recently became with the scallop fishery, the first fishery in China to be certified by the Marine Stewardship Council, which is not a small achievement at all. And to his left is Ms. Abby Ramanan. She has multiple hats here at the forum. She is a co-chair of the entire meeting. She's presenting on a number of different topics. She's a social entrepreneur. She's started two businesses. I think she's on her third. And she's currently the CEO and co-founder of Impact Vision, which is a company that's using computer vision and hyperspectral imaging and machine learning to assess the quality of food chains, the quality of food in the food chain. And that includes a system to test the freshness of seafood. So the idea is to apply technology to reduce waste, to increase accountability, to reduce fraud, and overall increase the value of food in the food chain. So we have some ambitious entrepreneurs here, some ambitious business people here, and they're primarily focused on how to grow productivity and efficiency in food chains as they exist now. But we're also going to talk today about what the food chains might look like in the future. I will very quickly introduce the topic of fisheries and aquaculture for those of you who are coming in with a very green perspective, although I suspect that there are some experts in the room as well. About 1 billion people worldwide depend on ocean fisheries for their primary source of protein. This is no small topic, and global fisheries are worth about $150 billion a year. Now, despite that the importance, we're also running out of fish. About 85% of fish stocks in the world are either at or beyond their sustainable harvest limits. And the ability to maintain that sustainability is compromised by the fact that somewhere between 15% and 30% of all fisheries catch worldwide is what's called IUU fishing, illegal, unreported, and unregulated, or as some people just say, pirate fishing. So the impact of IUU fishing on economies is something like 10 to 20 billion dollars of lost value per year. So given the challenges in wild fisheries, many people are saying, well then we should obviously turn to farming and to aquaculture. But just like farming on land, that sort of thing doesn't come without its costs. The clearing of land and the clearing of coastal terrain to do aquaculture is extraordinarily damaging oftentimes. Aquaculture is resource intensive. It takes a lot of antibiotics, a lot of feed. In some cases, you're talking about three pounds or three kilos of wild caught fish fed to an aquaculture species to get one pound or one kilo of fish back out. So it's not necessarily even a profitable enterprise in terms of the energetics. And when you are farming species in close quarters and in high densities, you tend to have disease outbreaks, the accumulation of heavy metals, persistent organic pollutants, there are some real threats to the health of those kinds of food supplies. So we need to feed the world and we need to feed it with the resources we have here on this planet and we have challenges in both wild fisheries and aquaculture. We're not going to feed the world without both. So our challenge today is to talk about how we can increase the sustainability of both of those things. And that's not only to increase productivity and efficiency in markets, but it's also in fact a human rights issue and a geopolitical stability issue. The more that we have stable fisheries, the better we are able to prevent fisheries collapse, political unrest, the emergence of piracy and the more that we are able to bring fisheries into an accountable and transparent world, the more we are able to reduce the negative effects of illegal fishing, which include things like narcotics trafficking and human slavery. So with that extremely heavy introduction, I'm going to start by asking my panelists a very serious and very weighty question, which is tell me your favorite kind of seafood to eat. Would you like to start, Abby? Pescatarian and definitely when I'm in China and I have to say my favorite is probably sashimi. Just go straight to the source. Any kind, any particular favorites? Tuna. Yeah. Tuna sashimi. And Mr. Wu, would you like to tell us your favorite type of seafood to eat? Something. A scallop. Say that. The reason I ask that question is because oftentimes we think about sustainability or environmental conservation as an effort to not do something, to not eat seafood, but I think all of us on this stage are partly in this effort to eat more seafood. My particular favorite is a wahoo caw off the back of a fishing boat in the Caribbean and then just chopped up and made into ceviche with some lime juice. Then you eat it with your bare hands. Okay, let's get to the serious questions. So I'd like to give our panelists an opportunity to talk a little bit about the work that they do. So I'd like to ask you each to describe a recent success that's helping put us on the path to greater sustainability in fisheries. And that can be an example from your own work or something that's close to you. Mr. Wu, would you like to start by talking about the scallop fishery? Thank you. Thank you, thank you very much. Just now you talked about your favorite seafood and I think this type of interaction, if you have no seafood to eat, maybe you will not feel happy. And for our company, we have 60 years of history and within all our development we have our fish catching stage. You know, this is mainly we're taking the benefit from the ocean and the next stage is that we have our own cultivation of the fishery so that we were able to get the growth and the production of the seafood. So later on we're coming to the third stage which is the current stage that is the equal development stage. We're trying to establish a very careful development of the sea so that we can achieve good productivity and good marine environment. And we've got the MSC license in China for the very first time in 2015. It has three major principles, first of all, sustainability. Secondly, the biodiversity and thirdly is the good industry practice. With all our endeavor, not only we've got this license, we also created the biggest farming area in the sea. Not only we've got the scallop, we also have the product of a sea cucumber, abalone, the sea chestnut, and then conch and so on. So within our fishery farms, we have a great variety of biodiversity. And not only with this product, we also attract a lot of sea animals coming to our fisheries. You know, we have for many years to grow the scallop and this is the very good, sustainable way to the specific environment of the fishery area and also for the general idea. One of the things that I think is worth mentioning as a marine biologist, I can tell you that some of the species he's talking about, things like scallops and conch and sea cucumbers are organisms that eat smaller organisms and they tend to be filter feeders and they tend to be detritivores. So those are the kind of organisms that are better to be raised in agriculture than others. And the description of other species coming and joining that ecosystem is very cool. So would you like to give an example of a recent success perhaps in your own business and also talk to us about whether you're working on any of these kinds of same species if you're only working on fish. Or also seafood invertebrates generally. Having me on this panel. So I think there are two areas that are of particular interest or where there's a lot of innovation happening in relation to the seafood. So the first is the area that we work on which is more around supply chain transparency and authenticity. In the US, up to 90% of red snapper for example is thought to be substituted for cheaper factory farm tilapia. In the EU the figure is between 25 and 30% for Pangasius and cod. But the level of fraud and substitution in the fish supply chain is one of the highest in the world. And as you alluded to earlier there are also significant challenges with slavery and illegal fishing. This leads to depleting fish stocks in the oceans and this has ramifications on everything from price fluctuations all the way down to an increase in seafood allergies because of mislabelling and substitution. One of the challenges is that there is just a lack of information. So today it's a very manual process. Commercial fishing vessels will go out to sea. They'll bring back what they've caught and trained inspectors will look at the eyes and the skin of the fish in order to determine the freshness. So this means not only is knowledge concentrated in a very few number of people, it's also subjective. It's subjective. It will vary from one inspector to another. So what we have developed instead is an imaging system based on a technology called hyperspectral imaging. And this combines two different techniques. So spectroscopy which is the technique of acquiring chemical information from a single pixel by measuring the reflectance of light combined with computer vision. And the value of having the computer vision component is that you're looking at reflectance across hundreds or thousands of pixels. What this means in practice is that you can just do inline testing because with a single pixel, it could be a lean pixel, it could be a fat pixel. It doesn't tell you something about the distribution of the parameters and having hundreds or thousands of pixels allows you to understand how the sample looks across the whole unit. So that's just a tiny primer on hyperspectral imaging. And just from, we worked with one of the largest fishing cooperatives in Spain on a pilot to classify the freshness of hake fish. And just from the training set alone, we got 98% accuracy because as the fish age, the light reflects less skin over time. It's a function of moisture. So this essentially would allow the fish industry and that particular company to go from testing around 1% of their samples to 100%. So the EU classifies freshness as extra A, B, and non-admitted. And the goal is in order to classify every single fish in accordance with the category that it belongs to and have as little as possible as non-admitted for commercial purposes. And that's very challenging to do with sample-based tests. The other advantage of this kind of imaging system is, like I mentioned, around interspecies classification. So whether that's tilapia or red snapper, we even think doing a classification between Atlantic cod and Pacific cod would be possible because of how sensitive the system is. So I think there's a lot of potential in being able to identify fraud and mislabeling. There also need to be incentives put into place for regulators to have access into the fish supply chain because I think that today, there is a lot of people are benefiting within the industry from a high level of fraud. So just having access to the technology alone is not enough, but we are quite confident that we are able to do these types of tests today to verify both freshness and species of fish. And then the second area where I think what is really interesting is actually split into two. So there is a lot happening around the world in cellular agriculture. So I know a couple of companies in the US that are, for example, growing, taking stem cells and then fermenting them outside of any kind of physical fish, growing them in labs. So essentially growing fish meat in labs as a way to circumvent some of the sustainability challenges in aquaculture and in the seafood industry. I think as with cellular and plant-based meat, cellular and plant-based fish, two companies in the US are Finless Foods and New Wave Foods taking different approaches, but essentially engineering fish outside of any kind of physical animal. I think this is a really interesting development in terms of animal protein in general. And then the second is around feed. So again, as you mentioned, it's very unsustainable to feed fish to other fish and generate lower yields than what you're putting in. So there's a lot of innovation happening around turning crop waste, for example, into fish feed so that you can raise aquaculture more sustainably in that way. And there are a few companies doing innovation in that area. So those are some innovations and approaches that I think could have quite positive impacts for seafood. So we have all kinds of technology. Actually some of the hyperspectral technology we're using is originally from NASA satellite technology looking at the health of plants and crops and soils now applied to fish. So we have increasing number of species and more holistic kind of aquaculture system emerging. We have technology that's now better at looking at the health and quality of species and starting to help catch people when they're faking the names of the species and sliding a lower quality fish into a higher quality name. I wonder if you guys could each mention one of the major challenges you see either in implementation of some of the technologies we already have or capabilities that we don't yet have yet that we need to increase sustainability. If you could have any bottleneck broken open in your production or supply chain, what would it be? Mr. Will. China. Well, thank you for the question. So this year marks the 40th anniversary of China's reform and opening up endeavor. China enjoyed very rapid growth for its fishery industry in the past four decades. So in the early days of the reform and opening up China struggled to provide adequate food to its population. At this stage, the government now has shifted its strategy from a qualitative oriented strategy to a quality oriented strategy. For fish supply, so we have two primary sources. One is fishing, the other is farming. Based on the practices in recent years, I think for China we are currently at a process of transitioning from focusing on quantity to quality. There are several things we need to do. For example, China needs to give back some of the farming zones to transform them back into natural habitat to strike a better balance between farming and fishing. For farming, I think the future emphasis is still on techniques and the technology breakthroughs. How can we enhance productivity of aquaculture with implementation of technology for fishing? I think the Chinese government is now trying to reduce the number of commercial fishing vessels and also the overall output from fishing. The overarching principle is to maintain a reasonable scope and pace of fishing. And to achieve success, it is still a very challenging process, but I think the overriding trend is there for us to go into this direction. We have as many issues with fraud in the types of aquaculture that you do. When you're dealing with something like a scallop or a shrimp, it's harder to disguise what it is than say maybe a red snapper substituted with a different fish. So I wonder how much you deal with fraud in the production, during production in the fisheries that you work on? I think the Chinese consumers are becoming increasingly sophisticated. In the past, the problem is whether you can have access to seafood and now people are paying more attention to the leveling, the original production of the seafood, they are getting. So for the Chinese government, it is implementing a authentication system or traceability system for the original production so that the consumers can be assured of the quality of the food. For food fraud, we encountered many similar problems faced by other developing countries, including misleadling or passing low grade seafood for high grade seafood, but I think the situation is being improved and we are beginning to see a more transparent and fair market taking shape in China. And this in turn can promote a healthy and orderly development of the industry. Supply chain and the lack or existence of chain of custody is still a big issue in fisheries as well as many other food supplies. Would you like to describe a challenge that you see, that a bottleneck you wish would be broken open, whether related to something like chain of custody or the supply chain or could be something completely technological or? Yeah, absolutely. I actually think that with many of these emerging technologies, the technical risk can be largely reduced. You can iterate on your models, you can improve the accuracy of your results. I don't think it is a technical barrier that will prevent proliferation of these tools, particularly in the food industry and specifically in the seafood industry. I think it is largely an adoption issue. Even people within the fish industry do not know exactly where the substitution is happening. It's very opaque. Products can pass through five or six countries between being produced and between being consumed. And we very much saw this with the explosion of the horse meat scandal, for example, when you traced that supply chain products were being carted kind of across Europe and it was very hard to know at that point exactly where the substitution was happening. It took several months to even get initial results. And I think there are similar challenges with the fish industry. And there is a certain level of reluctance by various players in the supply chain to take responsibility for mislabeling or substitution. Retailers want to put the emphasis on suppliers and retailers already have a huge amount of power in the supply chain. And suppliers have intense pressure because the fish industry, like all elements of the food industry, has fairly slim profit margins, at least in countries like Europe. But at the same time, in the US, it represents $16 billion in retail sales alone and is the second largest importer of seafood in the world. So there are gains to be made from substitution. I think the economics make sense for there to be, for fraud to be committed. So until we understand how we can change that incentive structure, introducing technologies alone is not going to change the way the food industry operates. And this is why I think regulation can play a really important role by creating, but yeah, altering the incentives for committing fraud. There's the frequent desire to say, oh, if only everybody would just demand sustainable seafood at an individual level, somehow we will achieve sustainability. But what you're saying is that there's no incentive to play by the rules each step of the way if no one else is, and if your profit margin is so narrow. I read somewhere that about 55% of all seafood imports are going only into the EU, the US, and Japan. So it is an example of an industry where there's some concentration and you could, in theory, establish much stronger laws about imports and custody and supply chain management at that level because you would be controlling more than 50% of imports around the world just with those three groups. So an example of where the consumer individual action may not be the place that's the most squishy, the easiest place to push. Let's see. So I just want to add that the growth for Chinese market, both imports and exports, are gaining very strong momentum right now. For example, we saw an average increase of 20% from 2016 in the year of 2017. The export grew at 16%, import grew at 33%. And also at international level, MSC is vigorously promoting the certified products in China and we are seeing a doubling growth of MSC certified seafood in China. So if coupling that with self-discipline of the industry, we are going to see a much bigger, a much better picture. Great point, the idea that you need the industry to be more disciplined and that the consumer will pay more for something that is labeled sustainable to some degree, the educated consumer groups. Is there a particular fishery that you wish could make up a bigger portion of the exports from China? Is there a place where you see an opportunity to do even more export of higher quality product? I think China's fishery industry used to be export oriented because of the higher price in overseas markets. But thanks to the rapid economic growth in domestic market, we are seeing a much more demand in the domestic market. So the Chinese market is attracting the best quality seafood from across the world. And we are seeing also a fundamental structural change between imports and exports. So abundant opportunities within China. And the government is helping us to open further to the outside world, which is also conducive to the international market. Yeah, that there's a constant evolution of what the quality and the diversity and a growth in the ability of the country to produce what they need and maybe even more so. The idea that it's more food security but also potentially more exports for the international market. So let's see if we can ask one or two more questions and then we'll get some questions from our audience. This one's a little bit provocative. Are there any technologies or systems in aquaculture and sustainability that didn't live up to their promise? Are there any mistakes that we have seen in the recent past that we can learn from and avoid doing again in the future as we seek greater sustainability? I might say that one of my, as a conservationist and environmentalist, I often find it frustrating that we're asking individual consumer every minute of every day to make their own individual decisions to sort of boost sustainability. I wish that there was more action at the regulatory and larger scale level and I think in some ways we lost decades to asking individuals to solve the problem for us. But I wonder if there are other, say, technologies or species that failed to grow or promising things that were hyped a few years ago but now we're saying, oh, that's not the way forward. I think in terms of a lot of the emerging technologies we are yet to see from hydroponics and aquaponics, for example, what really they can achieve in terms of yields. So I think that that kind of remains to be seen, but I would really echo your point and I think there are really good environmental journalists, George Monbiot, for example, who write about how it ends up being a bit of a panacea to put all the emphasis on the individual consumer to make certain choices, whether it's about reusable coffee cups or about choosing to buy sustainably sourced fish. We do need coordination at the national and international level for there to be, and it is almost becoming quite a crisis in terms of the fish industry, particularly around illegal fishing, slavery in the supply chain and depleting ocean stocks. So I would say that we need to reframe the debate. Individual consumer choice is important, but there needs to be a much more aggressive approach on addressing particularly those three areas from a policy context and from a legislative context to make changes within our generation. So I really kind of agree with that point. I think technology is a tool. All of these technologies are emerging. Their true value will remain to be seen in the next five to 10 years, but I think that the policy context needs to be much more robust. Would you like to add something that has failed to live up to its promise or something that we know we hyped too much and didn't live up to its promise? And just now, as you've mentioned, how the consumers are helping with the environmental protection, well, in my opinion, what is more important is how the international organization can play a better role. Previously, maybe as the limitation of technology, however, with the current technological progress, the internet development and also the international collaboration, we are able to share technologies and share solutions, and this will be a very important mechanism for us to establish, and that is the government of different countries need to start taking actions to protect the environment and to preserve the resources. One point. Let's see. So before we do our close-up, we have about 10 minutes so we can ask questions from the audience. The more provocative, the better. Please keep it in the form of a question, however. And please introduce yourself and say where you're from. My name is Karsten Otto. I come from Germany, from the Kaisen Institute. We have a lot of projects also in the food industry, and I have a question to Ms. Ramanan. In our official app here from the World Economic Forum, it's a small survey from you, and I have a question for the last sentence. I think you know it. I'm a fan from fish restaurants, yeah? And I quote, you write, Aspires to open a social enterprise restaurant one day. It means what is it and what is the difference between your restaurant, your dream, and a normal one, like North Sea in Germany. Okay, yeah, such an absolute question. I was not expecting in any form whatsoever. That was my supposed to be fun fact. I guess the definition of a social enterprise is where you reinvest a certain proportion of your profit in furthering some social or environmental objectives. So prior to starting Impact Vision, I started a social enterprise catering company, and the social enterprise component is providing opportunities to migrant and refugee women to enable them to become chefs. So we also have certain commitments that we've made around sourcing. We source the vast majority of our products locally and sustainably. We work with local fishmongers, for example, and a friend of mine actually started a box scheme. So she works directly with local fishermen and delivers the fish to community hubs in London, and we source our fish from there. So I would say that the main difference is that you explicitly state that a certain proportion, we, in fact, invest all our profits in furthering the social or environmental objective. And in the future, I would love to open a restaurant around that, but this is an amazing question one I was really not expecting. Thank you. The question is, you started three businesses. Hurry up and tell us about your fourth one. If anybody wants to read my CV, please don't. I didn't keep track of who raised their hand next, so I will let you guys sort this out amongst yourselves in the crowd. Thank you. My name is Gao Yuan. I come from Cuba. Tianyang Shipping. I'm the president of the company, and I have two questions. One is to Ms. Ma Hamer and the other one I want to speak in Chinese to Mr. Wu. The first one, you know, we are a shipping company, and one of our most important services is the fishery from South Pacific to Asia, like to China, to Thailand, Vietnam, and Japan. You know the volume is very big and keeping increasing by every month. Every month we have a lot of fish in our refrigerator container to Asia. I know you are the expert of the sea, so my question is that how long do you think the volume can still increase? Or in other words, after how many years do you think the quantity can reach the peak? How many years of fishing do we have left? How many years of increase do we have left? Yeah, we are still increasing, but my question is that how long do you think the increasing can still last? Oh, that's a tough question. Not long. The question is how much longer do we have before our fisheries really max out and we really run out of fish? I think that we are getting better technology to catch more fish, which helps us catch more, but it also means that we went from spending the interest and now we are spending the capital. So the question is kind of like how much money is left in the bank. The question isn't how many years can I live off the interest? Now the question is like how many years before I've depleted the whole fund? So my answer is if we back up a little bit and go back to just spending the interest, we can fish forever. What's the answer? The second question. I'm just a moderator here. Okay, my question to Mr. Wu is that you are very famous as well as your company is very famous in China. We all buy your product. So my question is for your company, do you have some strategies to go out, go international? For our company, we started to go out in 1987 in Mauritius and then we went to Perot in Angola, in Morocco, in Mauritania, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, and Indonesia and also some of the Pacific areas. And later on we have some structural change within the company. So we have shifted from the fish catching stage to the fish cultivation and therefore we've got the fish cultivation platform in Halifax, Canada and also in Japan, we had the processing factory to work with local people and also in Korea, we started our cultivation centre and apart from it, we've also got our presence in USA, in Hong Kong, in Taiwan and other regions. We set up some trading platforms and for these trading platforms in the very beginning, we emphasised on exporting and currently this is a very good hub for exporting and importing. So we're basically choosing the best locations of the world to choose the best product and the best market. And in the future, I think going out, going international is a very good echo of China's national initiative of Belt and Road. And at the same time, we believe that it is very important for us to go out even further and also cooperate with local people. We have time for one more question if it's a tiny quick question. I have a question for Mr. Wu. I'm from the CRI and we know that the fisheries is very dependent on weather so how can you control or manage this risk? Thank you. For our business, for the fishery, previously, we talked about the volume, how much we can get and I believe your question is something we should understand and I think that is the risk and the risk is something we need to think about as the top priority because for all kinds of industries, all kinds of businesses, risk is something you need to manage. Otherwise, no company can thrive and for our company, we have a lot of lessons. We've learned it in the hard way but at the same time, we've got some measures to counter with these risks and this year we've got 11 measures, for example some of the alarming system, the prevention system because we've got many experts to have some forecast of the conditions in the water and from the weather and secondly, it's for the insurance. For any type of companies that with risk, you will be able to find the opportunity to cooperate with insurance company and that give us a very good guarantee for the further development and the third point I want to make is that you need to know what you can do and you do the things within your capability do not overdo something. So I believe so no matter you call it the lessons or the experience we believe that based on these we will be able to get a sustainable and develop track of development so that we can pay back to our consumers, to our investors and all the people the focus on our company. Thank you very much. Be disciplined in what you do and know what you can do and do what you can do. So let's see, we just have a couple of minutes to wrap up. What I'd like to do is ask each of the panelists to just describe a take home or an insight or something that they'll take away from this conversation for the rest of the forum. Mr. Wu, would you like to start? We're putting you on the spot again. Well, first of all I believe is the risk of the fishery that is very important and the things to remember and secondly that is the fisheries development in China is now in the very crucial transitional period and how can we how can we produce more sustainable development method without over capturing the marine animals or over expand our productions and that is the key for sustainability. In line that we walk we're trying to do more without tipping over a line. And Ms. Ramadan, what is your key take home or your key insight that you'll be leaving with? Well, firstly, it's been such a pleasure to share a panel with you both. Thank you so much for having me and I think it's interesting that across academia and very kind of large private sector and small service provider that we're all fairly united in understanding that technology is a tool but international, national and regional cooperation is extremely important to address issues like overfishing and we need to work on having a very firm policy context within which technologies are implemented and I think this point was echoed by all of us so I think that's probably the main thing that I'll take away with me. Absolutely. There's this sort of speaking to your point as well about the number of different opportunities in fisheries around the world. We have a chance to have a truly global economy in fisheries that's also behaving in a disciplined way and making disciplined policy decisions and it's actually quite an opportunity where the technology is now ready, it's ready for all the diplomats and the politicians to firmly commit to the discipline and the careful walk down the line so that we're not slipping past what we can harvest and slipping into a point where we start going backwards. The technology is here and now it's time for the political discipline to kick in. And I'm now hungry for scallops. Hungry for tuna scallops and some wahoo sashimi. So thank you guys all for joining us here at the forum and online. Before I have you give an applause for the panel, I'd also just like to thank our translators. They did a very excellent job keeping us all on the same page. So please join me in thanking our panelists and thanks very much.