 That just after dark and we're back with unfiltered and uncensored talk from young alumni Historically black colleges and universities dialogue on the pressing issues facing the HBCU community nationwide Got a full house tonight or is the Morganite Fred brother Eric? Dr. Dr. Oona. I don't even know to call it Oona or even Dr. Oona's here at the Hamptonian My brother Katie will cop and lower by way of anti and tailor the Hamptonian and tiff About to be thrown off the show. So Tonight's topic is allegations against one Mary better gasman formerly of you pins Center on Minority Serving Institutions and now I guess starting this week Rutgers universities Center of the same operation also a chair the Samuel DeWitt proctor Research on equity and social justice. So if you haven't read it, it's been quite the talk of the HBCU community over the last 24 hours allegations of Improper sexual comments behavior Pressure against graduate students working under dr. Gasman's office while at you pin dating back several years They've not risen to any level of criminal investigation. There's no indication that they led to her being dismissed or fired What it is to say that this was an investigation launched by the institution to which they've responded today to say That they don't discuss personnel issues, but they are aggressive about making policy and culture That is intolerant of sexual harassment. So you can take that for what you will tonight. We discuss the HBCU ramifications of it Scandal and Influence on the culture and everything in between so We begin With tiff about to be thrown off the show. Um, this broke. I guess it was this Not about to be that's it, you know, it's his old habits not about to be thrown off the show. Um, I Think it was yesterday morning. I woke up to the text and the emails About this story. When did you become familiar with it? And what was your initial reaction to it? In a group chat not not the larger digest after dark one but aside group chat and Initially not surprised We're talking about a white woman who has made a name for herself a platform for herself and Allegedly for others Particularly has become a champion in our community and then she does things that really only that really make us look at Her like you're not really that much different than the white people that we know Our outtakes for our bodies our labor our minds XYZ so that's when I say I I'm not surprised when white people do what white people do that is what I mean. I Mean they have a lot of things in common Now I will say that's mad racist with art I Mean well, let me ask so who else is on February there you work in higher education You have familiarity with Gasmus research and I guess her influence or presence in the sector. What was your reaction to the story? First time hearing it I audibly gaffaud I laughed extremely loud But you know, it's like what's it said it's like that's typical I Asked I think I asked a question. I can't remember how long ago it was where I was wondering like those who don't have a Natural stake in HPC use like don't have a connection for themselves Sometimes I always wonder what is the impetus to actually get involved? What is the reasoning that somebody would? Dedicate their life to work into something that this will culturally have no connection to I guess sometimes I can be a personal fetish Well that that's what made me laugh about it because Truth be told and I won't disclose all the details. I've kind of seen that inaction in person With her that's not to say that these allegations are true, but it is to say that Like most of you said I'm not surprised It also is to say that this is this is really unique in the power dynamic in higher education so it's not unusual to hear about You know faculty and Department chairs and they work with you know graduate students or even undergraduates and they say, you know, I think you ought to You know pursue this you ought to pursue this as a dissertation topic Or you ought to do this as a capstone project and they kind of leverage even in most of the time in an unspoken way Do this or I'm not gonna really give you all the help that I can give you or I want to give you Do what I want you to do And sometimes that that creeps into areas of you know, social or interpersonal sexual impropriety Typically at least in the mainstream there's been white men doing that This is the first time we've seen a white woman or you know one of the few times We've seen a white woman at the center of the allegation and they apparently are receipts So does that change the game for the way that you think about this? No, because power Okay, power don't change It doesn't Eric was it was it any different for you? I'm actually surprised it came out because it's a white woman to be frank. I mean That that out that I mean despite the person's name I just was surprised that it came out It could have been any white woman that has enough power in higher education or anything The fact that it came out about her especially out against black people Yeah, that's the most surprising part Honestly, what did you think about the nuts and bolts of the story itself? One of the interesting things is that the people who all made the claim were anonymous now If you know anything about, you know sexual assault sexual harassment There's a great deal of embarrassment that that people who are subjected to that stuff feel and they don't Necessarily in all cases want to be revealed to be the subject of an inquiry or a story like that But it is to say that we are in the midst of a culture where people are becoming more and more Comfortable with putting a name face image video out about these kind of claims. Did you think that it was unusual? Power dynamic aside that no one was on the record to say yes I want my name to be associated with the claim that this lady made me feel uncomfortable on the job I don't think you can do power dynamic aside because these are people who work in a field that she has a significantly heavy name in um I think that's a very strong part of it. What what I am interested in seeing is that if now that somebody has already dropped the first, you know Bit of information how many people Was anonymous or otherwise are going to come out and also substantiate what's been said We've already seen that a lot of people have come out And said, oh that wasn't my experience And there's been other conversations in other places where people have said, yo that actually makes sense So I wonder how much is how much is actually going to come out because of it What well This is going to lend itself to the cultural conversation later But I think it's appropriate here the reaction from the hbcu community A number of defenders Do you have a problem With the defenders or is it, you know, everybody has a right to their interpretation and their allegiances What are your feelings on the folks from the hbcu community? Coming out to saying this isn't what I know of her. I don't believe it and even if it is true What is anybody going to do about it or should anybody do anything about it? I think people should kind of just monitor business for a little bit Especially if that wasn't their own experience, right? So like sure that was your experience with this person But that does not mean that What has been said is also untrue um It's like and honestly like nobody asked you If you get to a point where it's like you're stepping out there and saying well, that wasn't my experience like what does that do For you in this in this situation To come out and say that oh no, that was a situation. They could have been any could have been anybody Like black white male, you know female man woman, whatever it may, you know, baby What purpose does it serve to come out and say? Oh, no, I'm defending this person when nobody knows the facts Despite what's already been put out there. I just think you know It's a it's a weird kind of like crabs in the bushel type mentality where it's like As opposed to you know being supportive of the fact that there's some people who've had a negative experience You're using that as a as a leveraging point To kind of elevate yourself Whether it be purposely or be implicitly or explicitly It it looks just it looks really this Cowardly and kind of soft in that way. Let me just ask the question flat out. Is she that powerful? in our sector I mean, look, I I'm I'm about to be in my fourth term in my higher air program I in the fourth I've taken I'm about to take my 9th 10th and 11th courses in my program I've literally seen her name More times than I can count As an author on many books, I've heard her referenced by many people more times than I can count The the influence on the power is real to the point that no one No one has any inclination to say this. We cannot accept this This is so Fascinating to me because so many people had a visceral Reaction when presidents from hbc use met with trump and this is the president in the united states level my hatem That was the president of the united states and people said absolutely do not go Absolutely do not go do not broker with him. Do not look for anything from him Do not look for any resources to come from his his signature And this is for all intents and purposes. This is a professor At a school that ain't even hbcu How do you wheel that much influence that you can make a sector thousands of people at hundreds of institutions say nothing Honestly at this point it kind of goes back to something that Tiffany spoke about Almost years ago at this point, which is After all of this, what are people going to do at hbcu's about making sure that we Control the narrative of our institutions. We're the ones researching our own institutions We're the ones creating centers about our own institutions about as far as research and what we're doing to get better as opposed to Always trying to invite somebody to cook out Well and does that in so what's the future of that then? Tiff I mean because I would ask you there's a there's a lot of good White people that work at hbcu. They've they've committed their lives to work at institutions. No, we're not but when I'm saying this That's why you have to be careful With the I mean Eric's point is well taken but you got to be you know, you got to be careful with that cookout You know kind of kind of allegory because it's There are a lot of people that have you know have given time talent and treasure to it And care more authentically and are willing to check their privilege in a different way and are willing to not work with those people daily not talking about them So I mean, so what is the analysis then for them? At the same time i'm not asking for them to check Heart it's not for at this point it's not for regular Employees and administrators to do who needs to check her I would say very carefully that um I think we we all need to lean into collective working responsibility and resistance And we know what that is and what that looks like Are we really resistant one person? um Like is that is that necessary the way that y'all talk or the way that this is looking since yesterday into getting getting to today For one person. Oh, absolutely because it's one person got everybody shook and ain't nobody saying nothing And keep in mind just one other point before we go to our first break She hasn't responded at all to any of these allegations. She said not a word Exactly. So I don't know if that's arrogance I don't know if there's certainty that is false Not that's power Like she doesn't have to say anything Not like word and she knows for the most part Then came out and said what they had to say about it Rutgers came out and said what they had to say about it She's probably just sitting back like I'm good. I said what I said And you know what like Jared? You said that this is fascinating for you I would like to add to the fascinating list because at the same time Remember I've been asking and tweeting about How publicly Nobody has really stepped up to say anything about what Morris brown has been doing for the last 17 years and holding them accountable for You know still going out to ask Oh lord, I do get that I do get that point I'm going with this that's fascinating as well. I do there are certain things that people will step up and say But at the same time you want to talk about power tiff just talked about 17 years of institutional mishaps Morris brown college and she co-signed the person who's now president of the school Right, so like I knew y'all No, because like at some point if you actually do care about these schools Like if it's not just like something that sure that you know that you can find your own little line in because You look the part to get the approval of certain people And you and you have this other side of you which you know may or may not allegedly is a fetish for other things that are black then Like do you really care about these schools doing better or do you care enough about these schools? To research them to this You know, you know to benefit your own pockets because to this day For the 22 plus million dollars of money she's received to do research on hbc use I cannot find any evidence of how any of that money has went towards improving any of the schools That's a point. That's a point and um, I'm sure that there is But the fact that she's so outgoing and she's so noticeable in press That is an excellent point to say then where then how did your work become transformational for the sector you Allegedly serve That is something that we have to hold To account and I hope that we do in the weeks and months after this to come We're going to take our first quick break when we come back we're going to talk about some cultural implications Tied to the the revelations about dr. Gassman. That just at the dark. We'll be right back That just at the dark and we're uh continuing the conversation about the recent allegations made against HBC researcher ivy league professor mary bet gasman We wrapped up conversation about the Logistics or the dynamics of the story and now we want to talk about some of the cultural implications and the first That comes in to mind for me Is we and we talked about this in the first segment a little bit. We've already come off of a big year With hbc use institutionally trying to figure out how do they deal With instances and handling and reporting Responsibilities in sexual assault sexual harassment, right And now we have somebody who's in the hbc orbit accused of that stuff Because of the institutional responsibility we have to to show improve that we take that matter seriously Um, I would ask you two guys and I think we have uh Taylor the hamptonian and kd one Because of that do we have a extra responsibility to speak up about this and make it clear What our stance is on this lady? because most of her professional profile is built On hbc research. Um, I think it's very important for institutions to respond on this topic. Um, Anyone who ever listens to the podcast or anyone who ever listens to me? They always know that I talk about the godlike complex that operates within Our institutions within our systems within our administration the folks who support us and those who who don't And so I always know that our students always look to our institutions and our senior leadership when things hit the fan um, our students know who Mary Beth gasman is um, they know her because everything that we cite everything we talk about typically comes from her Um, she's featured um in documentaries Um, like let's not forget. She's in telling what we are rising Let us not forget that she's a very um, she she's in there a lot talking about the history So it's not only that our students have seen her we have prospective students who are seeing her In this light we have folks who may not even know or have even thought about hbc use but now The news of this is coming up. So I think it's very important for us to to have the conversation to talk about her And to talk about how this is affecting us because Us being quiet For me, I take it as we are okaying the godlike experience and and it's so funny because What was it the situation with papa johns, right? So papa johns owner Or the front-facing guy of the company He gets he gets caught up for making racist statements Morehouse immediately says you're out of here. We're not having papa johns on campus um I don't know if other hbc's threw them off campus, but they made clear, you know, we condemn the remarks In some respect Where is that? Where is the condemnation? here Katie and why do you think that it's it's slow to come When this is such a this seems to be such an easy This is a layup We don't we don't support sexual harassment Right and so I think um, can you hear me? Yeah Okay, and so I think part of it is because the uh The students who made the allegations wanted to remain anonymous Um, and so because you can't put a face to a victim It's easy to kind of skirt the issue um, and then part of it is because I think I think we take for granted how much of us do research In the community within the community because as a stem major she didn't come across Any of my studies, right? Even as a master student like when I'm not talking about her because everything I'm doing involves technology So there's a large sector Probably a a wealthy sector of the hbc population because they're stem majors who just don't see her Because it she doesn't matter to us. And so in order for for the story to really hit home You gotta give it time for everybody to see and I think the people that Deal with her research the research directly are more appalled because like y'all have been saying she's been cited so many times And so much of her research has been used in order for other students to get doctorate. I'm assuming I think it's it's at that level There's always there's already inherent an inherent belief amongst even people within the community I'm not an ally and that I only want to see Um, you know the best for people like myself directly like black men and not everybody that's in the community Um, so I think some of it is people just like protecting themselves and I I'm not criticizing this white woman I don't want to be that that that swore that to be the sword that I die on So there's always this this burden of diversity that's on black people. We always have to be the ones that are Trying to make white folks comfortable with the idea of Getting rid of your racist ways So that that that burden do you think that this carries over in this respect? That we don't want to we don't want to be the ones stirring the pot on a on a potentially racial and sexual issue Yes Yes, I have to believe that because apparently there's money tied into this too. So I don't want her um Her um, you know being as communicated from the hbcu community to affect 12 universities on the east coast We just have we I think that's why everybody's treating so lightly. We don't know how much she's actually tied into the community We all we only know about the research itself. We really don't know how much money She's connected to directly especially if you're telling me that she is connected to several doctors Like it's not like we got a bunch of them in america at least, you know in comparison to the rest of the world Like we got to protect everyone of our Our most, you know dedicated and committed professionals and I think that's what we're facing right now is Taking is just taking her down Take someone else down that we care about that is important to us That's a good point because she love her hater. She is a pipeline to doctoral degrees to Leadership positions for folks from hbcu's So taylor, do you think that it's worth saying we condemn this but you need to get right and get back on track So we can keep this pipeline going I think so here's the issue that I have is that we We are talking a lot about how the power that she holds and The money the pipeline The access that she has But there are students who are saying that they have been harmed by this right And let us not forget that these students are are also our future pipelines for not only hbcu's but for all msi's She also hand like her institution Her her whole thing is not just hbcu's she focuses on tribal colleges She focuses on anapesies. So she focuses on and so I think Another thing that is also very interesting to me is that we also have just siloed her Into just the hbcu matter and I wonder what happens when we also discuss that no She also provides research on all minority serving institutions Will that get folks to start talking again? Because maybe the black the black aspect of us is too much for us to care in this space And that's where i'm hurt and where i'm harmed because I think about okay How do we have to escalate it because someone who isn't who works in administration who deals with certain issues You are we're always told, you know, how do we think about how this affects like the larger community also? Um, how do we talk about who else is being affected by this? And so I like to challenge folks to think to also talk about it's not just hbcu's and those Who are affected by her research as well? She does it for offer a vast majority of minority serving institutions and so Again, I I I I wonder about those And the tribal colleges those and anapesies those and hispanic serving institutions What were their thoughts because everything has been quiet? I haven't seen much and for me I I want folks to understand that we have students who we have anonymous folks who have Studied under her We have folks who have worked with her who are who are saying that they've been harmed in this manner And we are discussing like well, we I don't know because money we might get affected by this And at what at what point do we stop by money? At what point do we stop by? Um, we might not get that publication We might at what point do you pull the card and say we have folks who are saying they are harmed? And we need to listen and understand what is going on I'm not saying that we need to pull out and pull and stay and in charger and put the gavel down on her now But I I literally wanted to sit and say we have folks who are saying that they are harmed by someone We have allowed to to be almost like a guiding light and a pillar in this space And what happens when we ignore that and say nothing that is what I I want to see that Are we doing that because she's white? Are we doing that because what we have the same reaction? If it was a brother or a sister in the same exact position at the same exact school That happened to be sexually harassing brothers and sisters who are graduate students If it was if it was one of us what we had the same reaction I think it's kind of hard to say no because of I think whiteness plays a part in it I think gender plays a part in it so we're talking a lot about different Identities that do have power play in this So I believe there is an influence of whiteness And white supremacy in the essence of power through whiteness that is informing how we even maneuver this space Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead there Katie you were gonna add something I didn't have anything I agree that I think whiteness was keeping this from um Really addressing it in a fruitful manner and I also think it's just the fact that so many of these big students are anonymous But I think that that kind of makes it difficult to you know Just just cold her accountable is because well nobody you know for now is the speculation. It's just allegation I disagree mainly because a lot of institutions have anonymous bias reporting systems that get people taken out And so there are institutions have anonymous reporting tools to get folks taken out And so if I can argue I for me I struggle with oh you didn't reveal yourself. We can't take her out because We have we there are places that have anonymous reporting tools in place to still have um Reprimanded happen so they can still protect the space of students And so that's where I disagree with it Because there are systems in place for anonymous reporting so that students and those who in faculty staff whomever are making the reports can do so Here's what here's what's interesting about it. So we just a few weeks ago had an instance where Morehouse was in the spotlight because a student came but got on twitter and basically Out of himself I mean to the world and said Here's this is my name Here's my situation and here's a person by name who is harassing me same kind of situation um But and that made national news This situation where gasman has not And it's almost the exact same situation a In fact, she had a higher position of authority than the person at Morehouse That was on abc news. That was on you know Time that was on all kinds of major outlets associated press this story at this point hasn't gotten there yet And do you do you think that is the the reason is because No one has picked up on the fact that she was doing this to black people Or it was because it wasn't done at an hbcu or because she's white Because clearly there's a disparity in the in the reporting on this So do you think that there's an obligation at if we say nothing else? That somebody has to stand up and say okay The reporting on this the reporting on this story is wrong Because you did this to Morehouse, but you won't do it to you pin So are you asking who's going to be a champion for black people who champions that If you don't want to talk about if we're not going to take the step of saying We reject her in the community And it doesn't appear that we will because I haven't heard any presidents come out I've heard very few students come out. I mean people are sub tweeting But I've heard very little reaction in comparison to when things like this happen on our campus So who comes out and at least makes the point a look the reporting on this is wrong Our being champions for ourselves Should not be taken or conflated with us Rejecting her it's just that you're deciding to protect those Who you're responsible for educating and growing And if that means drawing a line in the sand Against a person who is reported to have done Certain things Then yeah, that's what you need to do Yeah, it shouldn't it shouldn't really have anything to do with who she is as a person Because you should be doing this for anybody who decides to attack people in this manner It shouldn't it shouldn't be a question Who takes who takes the lead on that is the students because I told somebody today And I've had people calling me all day Um, and one of the one of the thoughts that I have on this is there's two groups in my mind That make this story get bigger One is black graduate students Who turn this into a you know a me too moment With her is kind of the the capstone figure of how this happens to them The other is white male faculty at PWIs Who say no no no no no wait a minute You all get us like this all the time And we get our careers destroyed Why hasn't she I might have a dumb question. I might have a dumb question. There are none of those No, it might be we're about to find out When have white men and women turned on each other in this manner though? Oh Oh pretty regularly I'm just I'm trying to I'm trying to I don't see that being a thing at least for this And I agree with tiffany in in one case because um, just something completely off topic, right? But joe wash is running for president, you know in the republican party And we are familiar with politics, you know that joe wash has been A prototypical a-hole towards obama and his whole camp, you know His whole run as president and like the one of the big tea party champion And so he got up on msnbc and asked for everybody's forgiveness And i'm just sitting here like hold on hold on hold on hold on. You were a birtherism dude You let us know that you were racist off the top. So why is it that we should forgive you as a community? And then here come um, joe scarbrough. I mean all you can do is ask for forgiveness. It's like, oh my god, bro You just legitimize this dude. You just gave him a pass and like so I don't know that they will ever like like Honestly, I don't I don't see it only because Let me say let me say this I think that there's there's a there's a sense that it might happen And the reason is you got to think about where this was reported This story was broken in inside higher ed If you know anything about inside higher ed Anything they do on hbcu's is going to include a quote from mary beth gasman. Yep anything That's valid the rare the rare opportunities where they're actually covering hbcu's For more than something like struggle or losing accreditation or we ain't got no money or crime No matter what is coming out of their pages Mary Beth gasman is going to be quoted in that in that publication As the hbcu expert quote unquote. So for them to have ran that In inside higher ed Right So for them for that publication to have run that story That was a big deal That to me was a signal of that. Yeah, they'll turn on you I hope so But in case they don't you know, I'm not surprised But but do I think I think it's it's a matter of who builds the coalition because I did notice last night At least on twitter. I didn't check all social media, but at least on twitter there were quite a few White female advocates hbcu advocates who said this is embarrassing and even worse because she's a white woman. They didn't even Run away from the racial part of this So can I say this out loud too? Hopefully um, I'm gonna be careful with this and I apologize if it offends anybody But I think I'm gonna just assume that this is a heterosexual white woman Yes Well, if you look at the if you look at the quotes in inside higher ed Oh, we can make that assumption Okay, and so I'm assuming that most of her victims are black men That they didn't say I don't know. I don't know. I just think that depends on like who was complaining to or well making inappropriate comments about somebody's body Or what you think their relationship status is with somebody that's all that's out of line That's true In that regard too And then, you know, I don't know people like to make small talk. I'm not one of those people So like I hear people say inappropriate things almost daily and I'm like, hmm Security but like no like And I don't want to like lessen You know what it is because I fully believe She did it But at the same time Maybe because no, I'm not saying it. Never mind You said a whole lot and now you're gonna stop short. Okay. Um, you know what? We're gonna take a second break and when we come back. Uh, we're gonna talk about the future for hbc using the relationship with Uh, mary beth gasman. That just at the dark will be right back That just at the doctor. We're back. Uh, we're talking about, um karate black belts and black shorts in the in the off um in the off time um We got or is the morganite on, uh, Dr. Ona and laurel from anti so Most of this conversation has revolved around this lady got to get up out of here Nobody's really taken a stake in getting her about it here and what What credibility do we have to address issues like this on campus if we don't pursue getting her up out of here But then I think that the other conversation has to revolve around now who fills her shoes And for so many years you've heard people saying Why does it have to be mary beth gasman, you know speaking on our behalf? We got plenty of researchers. We got plenty of researchers on campus doing this Well, two questions is who and how do we get them to a place where they're getting as much if not more recognition than she I know what our role is We keep having them on same thing that we did with roland martin Memo Sorry It always comes back to morris brown and roland martin It sure does at some point. That's where it's going to go. Ona. You are a phd um three-time hbc graduate What is the process of Getting out there and having research elevated to the point of being recognized What does the and what is the the role of the individual faculty member and the role of the institution in making that happen? Well for one it's making sure that We own our own like simply it's not even like a complicated thing I've always asked why is she there? How did she get there who put her there who gave her this title? I got questions And nobody got answers. So For one it's owning that tiff always brings up what you say tiff About doing what where at morris brown, huh? What? Oh, shoot. What do I be saying? Oh, god taking it to Taking it to The hub instead of having it at these Right, right. I did I did say all right. I'm trying to you know give you your credit. Um, no doubt no doubt And making sure that that happens I'm still like I need answers as to how we got here because this is before my time I mean, I'm old, but I'm not that old. So I need to I still don't get how we how Did we get here? I think I think that it was just that she Was doing work that was novel for somebody like her to be doing And she happened to be doing it at a campus that provided the engine for a lot of media attention So it's one thing if you're a researcher at Morgan or howard It's another thing that you pin because Associated Press USA Today Those major daily newspapers will look at an email from you pin differently than they would look at one from howard for better or for worse fair or unfair We we agree there, right? And they will and they will look at the headshot of the lady who's saying i'm an hbcu expert a white lady with glasses Then they would assist it with locks or a brother with a goatee That's you know, so that that's how we that's how we got here um The question is if this doesn't stop because she's going to keep going she was quoted today in an article on will before us Yeah, I've seen that joint not being able to make it And her quote I believe was something along the lines of it is hard to resuscitate a brand that's already, you know, kind of known for being in a position of struggle so Laurel if you if you consider that we're already we're already kind of behind the scratch line In that our experts are not white They send their emails from hbcu.edu email addresses um Is there is there a future where you can effectively replace her? Or have some people replace her as authoritative experts on hbcu's From that replacement to happen and this kind of correlates with Behold sexual harassment sexual assault situation in general Once people bother enough to listen to those who are affected that's when it'll actually change But as long as you still ignore those voices and say okay between this person and that person I'm going to go with the one that has the title Or i'm going to go with the white person over the non-white person Even if I don't explicitly say that implicitly that's what that's what keeps happening So it's like until people actually take accountability for like wait I didn't give this person a fair shot because of my You know, unacknowledged biases or whatever you want to call it And put this person forward because we actually want to bother to hear something different. So I feel like Even not even thinking about this situation Specifically I just feel like until people are actually bothered enough To actually practice what they preach instead of just saying oh, this is messed up. This is wrong This shouldn't happen We really care about you know, our students and our staff and we don't stand by this at all It's kind of like the lip service. Nobody wants to hear that anymore It's like what are you what are you going to do and back it up with policy and action? Because it's the same as these schools that say oh i'm committed to diversity yet I look at your faculty and there's only two people that aren't white Oh, we're evenly split between men and women though You know, we We're evenly split between people who came from you know non ivy league schools So, you know, the the it's a moving target on how we defend the diversity today, you know what I mean but Even even with that Or as I would ask you this question Because you jump back and forth in between morgan and and fan view cultures Do you think that this is something that hbcu culture can take a stake in because in theory Well, not even in theory in reality. This is ivy league issue This didn't happen in one of our schools. It didn't even happen with one with some of our students It happened with some of our alumni So it wasn't like these were students enrolled at hbcu's in the most in most cases this didn't happen on our campus It didn't happen with our resources in question. This all happened at you pin So do we have any stake in saying you pin ought to do this or ruckers ought to do that Do we even have do we even have a place in that discussion? So I would preface it by this the first thing is that the ivy league is an athletic conference It is not a standard of academic excellence, right and I think that I'm not saying that we're reiterating that by saying because she did it at ivy league school that That gives her more reverence, but I think that Sometimes even we as hbcu stakeholders feed into An inferiority complex about our own schools by Then praising other schools because she's at university of pennsylvania And then she goes to rector's which is which is technically an ivy league school based on it being started, you know During the 1600s as queen's college and then becoming a state university in jersey, but that's whole it doesn't matter I think that I think that I'm gonna put this I don't I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know if if if there's a a proper way to move forward With her or without her or someone like her unfortunately hbcu's are in a really tough position Not just because of our resource, but also geographically When you talk about the schools that are really in a strong position to get Media attention for their research. There's probably Five or six that you could say are in Areas that are large enough to generate type of national attention Obviously howard is the the the prize of that and then you can look at morgan You can look at a school like ant because it is so large Or even school like tsu because it's in a major city like houston, but besides that there's really not a lot of schools that Research is going to be able to reach those ap's those new york times the washington post that type of type of attention, so I think that Fundamentally we're in a really Grave situation because she has been such a big voice for our schools be it be a good or bad She's had a voice and it has bring brought some attention to our institutions and brought in some research, but Um, I think that she carries so much weight people aren't going to want to follow behind her Regardless, I don't think anyone wants to wants to be the person who quote on corporate places. Mary Beth gasman be a good or bad Um, and I think that leaves a large gap Um between kind of the researchers that are is done by our schools and then what is actually, you know being Produced and shown throughout the the country Do you think that it also comes down to a resource question or a priority question? This is actually for all three of you because one of the ways that she made her hay Is that she was willing to do the surveys and the interviews and this the conversations about stuff And creating data on things that hbc used individually and collectively had not done So that was part of the way that she became You know the juggernaut in the sector is because she was doing work that no one else was doing Um, and now we are doing that, but we're we're we're playing catch up So can you do institutions have to make a a commitment to invest in that kind of those kind of research? I mean, but institutions are I mean, I mean we you just had the a uc guy on a couple a couple months ago I mean there are institutions and and the a uc consortium and different institutions that are Putting that forward, but at the end of the day, but let's be out to be real I mean she's coming she worked at a school Like web u-pin which has a business school that raises, you know hundreds of millions of dollars per decade um that Get shared throughout the institution. I mean she she was open to a lot of a lot of long money I mean, let's not forget u-pens probably most famous alumni at the current president of the united states So I mean she had a huge platform. I don't think there's any I think it'd be wrong for us to say we can We can try to recreate the platform that she had because I don't think that we have the ability to Based on our resources, but we can produce meaningful research Over time It's just I just think that I think that trying to recreate what she's done in any in any type of way It puts the bar at a place that's not Going to be beneficial to our schools. We have to create our own Type of of research and create our own type of way of putting that out there That's unique to us that can speak to our institutions Because even like taylor said, you know, she didn't just focus on hbcu. She focused on msi So there really isn't a sector everybody's in a research center that we can think of a top of our head that Slowly focused on hbcu's in the same way. So there still is some some area of growth there It's a gag is that it already exists Whether it's been published or not is another conversation entirely but to say that oh, it's just not available. Oh, it's available But is it being funded? No Is the emphasis being put behind it are people getting support not just faculty support Institutional support or is it institution not able to support it because they're too busy putting out fires Are dealing with other things that actually are not that this isn't a priority But they're a more urgent priority, right? And that and that's the problem even when you're trying to do research in this space The only available availability is research with her name on it Now there are people who have been able and it's hard that they've been able To publish dissertations or do their research without citing her once But it's difficult Some people do it on purpose purposely boycotter stuff exactly Because you've been at hbc using pwy's to scale are the things that we can do That make it so at least in black media at least in black communities at least on black twitter or whatever the case may be That we can do something to scale that that starts the process of growing our own research brand growing our own narrative creation All of this is at what cost Because when it comes down to it There were students there who trusted And their trust was violated And when that happens, who are we going to have to continue these These studies this research What does that look like so yeah, we get x amount of dollars, but then at what cost? What does that look like? Because if everybody is surrounded is surrounding this woman and watching her research and doing everything that she's saying do What what are we really coming up with? What does that look like? Because if we're not making gah no, that's an excellent point because I just thought about it when we talked about earlier all the defenders that she has Are those folks now that they if they leave her are they coming to hbc using are they going to head up research things at our campuses? I don't even know that I want them to come And and and they're not I mean They're not coming to this again. They're not coming to our schools. I mean, let's be let's be real I mean most of the people who I see who are these big hbc you people I mean again I'm not in the sector. I work in I work in the private sector But from what I can see Most of these people who are african-american history, you know Savants they don't work at our schools. They don't teach our students The only people I see people on the rock newman show. That's it. He's the only one He's the only one that brings on hbc your faculty He brought on Shout out to rock newman, man rock rock new man had on my african-american history teacher for my freshman year fam He works at the bassoon mario bakal mathoom museum now and at um at bassoon kojo nami has them on too Yeah, but but but kojo's local So that's that's my man. That's my man from the city, but but kojo's local I'm saying rock newman is the only person I know and he's local as well who has acu faculty on who Speak on research. That's it Everybody else is like Oh, I work at ruckers. I work at berkeley. I work at usc They don't work at our schools Who's fault is that is it ours? Is there even is it even fault or is it just a reality that we have to do it? I think it's mostly reality I don't want to put fault there because people have different motivations for where they decide that they Willow won't work I think that I think that this should be a Defining moment for us to consider. Where do we put our priorities? as an institution I have my hand raised right now I would like to say That a i'm going to reiterate that the people That defend maria beth gasman Yeah, you can call them defenders But I think it's more appropriate to call them people who enable and are people who are apologists And if they'll ignore what she's been doing or allegedly has done, then they'll ignore it on campus too And we're gonna see that we for show hbcu's don't need that and if you think about What has driven people crazy about maria beth gasman? We can acknowledge and accept and even celebrate the fact that she's done some stuff for hbcu's She's helped some institutions get money. She's helped some students get through school. She's helped some students get phd's She's made some transformational opportunities for hbcu's to expand research What she's also done is injected a certain amount of white privilege into our culture anybody who can come in and and and Make comments on Florida a&m's presidential board issue and board issues and say this is this is sexism as finance And not just this is florida Or this is how the way they do business you don't know our culture when you come in and say Hbcu presidents ought not do business with donald trump Like we haven't done business with racist crooked white politicians since the beginning of time. You don't have a clue about our culture When you come in and say, you know, they're stupid, you know, I don't I don't You guys don't know how to leverage your brand when you don't even know the antagonistic Relationships that media outlets locally and nationally have had with hbcu's and continue to have It's clear you don't know our culture and the more and more she injects Privilege into our sector the more and more we suffer because she's a quote-unquote expert We have people who are teaching us how to do the thing But we don't like or said like laurel said like tay said like una said We don't have people Who want to pay attention To what it is that we can create for ourselves from what we do on our campuses every day and every semester and every year That doesn't mean that it's not happening. It just means people Choose to ignore it or choose a center someone named mary beth gasman who has a time in the resources And the white privilege to do the things that we've been doing So not it's offensive And when you're a black woman you get ignored extra hard. Oh for sure We're automatically muted in people's minds And then after you die, then oh, they were so great. This is what all they said Let's record everything that they said before And then use it now from the library and put you on a t-shirt lore. I retweet you all the time Yeah, I know I saw those And rest it Rest in peace for lorraine's handsberry rest in peace to tony morrison all of That what you just said and we're joking about it, but that's the problem because if you said, okay Who's great in in hbcu business? Somebody's gonna say civil mobly What what can she do now? If you said who's great in foreign affairs somebody, uh, oh, uh, wendy young You know, I mean like we get so hung up on The greatness of what we what we used to do that we don't even see that we're still doing it And that's why you can't advance anybody because we love love love Our tradition and our giants from yesteryear But we don't even look at the giants that we got walking among us right now. So I want to thank everybody. Um for tonight. This is a tremendous dialogue I know it was a difficult one to have but i'm glad that y'all took the bold step. Um, we learned tiff as a racist Um, hey, we did that learned Is that gonna make a final edit yeah, probably and then um I think it's a to the everybody's point about, you know, who gets ignored and who gets lifted up This is a perfect time to say please subscribe to the hbcu digest on patreon patreon.com slash hbcu digest Just one dollar a month for a tremendous hbcu news and commentary Um, so thank you Everyone for listening Um and and for for tuning in on series 142 HBC radio prior to the howard university radio network. This has been digest after dark We'll see are we are we doing this next week too? Look I wanted to do two in this week. We'll talk we'll talk off. We'll talk. Thank you for listening digest after dark peace