 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tom, my own little skank priest. What's up, buddy? Hello friends Also joining us this week, certainly a slon-star master worthy of all of the constellations Dan from AOS shorts. What's up, buddy? Hey guys, Camwell. Good to be here. Yeah, absolutely. So we're gonna talk about seraphon Revisited tonight. We're gonna I realize that we have not talked about we had not talked about them or come back to them since their actual release and My immediate thought was well that seems weird being that they're such a Let's call it dominant army perhaps So we'll see we'll investigate we'll talk about them the ups the downs what we've seen of them of their performance, but first of course the news So what do we got Tom a lot of news this week? So we have some images We do we have first of all they started the Advent calendar rumor engine nonsense. So So Like we're already eight months behind on rumor engines. We haven't seen figures four Mm-hmm, and they were like, you know what we've got to do step it up step like More rumor engines. We need to septuple the number of rumor engines every week. Yes So that's where we're where we're going Yeah, so the first one looks like a sister a battle thing It's this one. It's a leg It's got a little small fleur-de-lie. It has the foot like the cannonous Yeah, you can see the heels. Yeah, it has heels. So Okay cool beans This one is a guy with a book, but looks like a 40k thing or something. I don't know It's hard for me to tell like it's clearly a guy with a book or a box or something in a newspaper He's living a pack winter coat Okay, it's Santa Claus delivering a package. No, we're gonna talk about that in a minute homie Yeah, I have no guesses for either of these and I couldn't care less There you go. That's my answer because neither of these are anything. They're nothing Dan. Dan. You got any guesses? I Know I'm also trying to get a catch up because I can't really see the rumor engine image I can't either I was I was stalling to let the feed catch up It's a guy with a box and a piece of paper it I promise you it's the opposite of interesting Yeah, it's it's new plastic Valhalla and the ice warriors That's what it is. There it is. We all we all Called it there it is Dan's nailed it The return of the Imperial Guard army that I used to play my all of all Holland army. So there you go. Okay, great What do we got next Tom? Next we have We have that wonderful like Kayo Christmas Santa Claus video of the of the bug master and sir our bugman bugman son and Jacob and Delivering presents with the scaven hiding in the workshop. Yep. Yep And We're gonna bring up a little picture of that here real quick. I'm just gonna put it over all of us Sorry, everybody. I had to do this because I want to point out. Here's a picture from this video. I loved this video I've just covered all of us up for a moment Because there are no less than three scaven in this picture Helping bugman hang Christmas lights and do stuff like there's one up here on top of this little section here There's two up here that seem to be hanging Christmas lights and they're both like they don't seem like they're attacking because they're actually Wearing Christmas related regalia. See they both have like red hats on right now. They're blending in sure There's another one though on like five seconds later than this who's just hanging out next to Some of the boxes as bugman's walking out He's just like they're next to the boxes like right in the middle of everything. So he's certainly very obvious No, they're just not moving they're ninja rats and they're in their disguised accordingly Here's what I'm saying man Okay This shows the spirit of the holiday the true holiday spirit here brings us all together You know, you've got some KO. You've got some stormcast. You got some scaven You have everybody who makes good technology in the realms coming together to make toys. That's what that is No, oh Shame on you Vince. That's not what's going on here. That's absolutely what's going on. Okay, let's not do you know It's going on here. I'm ready These are the followers of skig. Yeah, sure. I thought about that. Yeah that they would be that these are some of the redeemed Yes, I'm with it. I just like to think that Christmas is bigger than that It just brings everybody together and whatever Christmas is in the mortal realms. I don't know. I assume festive us or Sigma us Saturnalia. I don't know but anyways Yeah, that video was super funny. Did you get a chance to watch it Dan? No, I haven't but I do like that. They do these Christmas pieces like I remember back to the the gloom spite Review or series of images that they did with the winter wonderland slowly being taken over and burnt to the ground. Yes I'm a couple of years back. I can't remember what they did last year, but certainly remember that one The I love the Like just the animation that they did with it is very funny because it's The stormcast like breaking her hammer and being very sad and that's hilarious that they that they're getting like she gets a new hammer But I think my favorite thing is the fire slayer gets like a little KO boat toy and he is So excited about it. I saw that and I was like, oh, they're my people Like he looks so thrilled about it The Lumineth got a turtle like a night and death turtle as well, but she's funny. I did see the little I did see the little Levado Yeah They could they should release those as actual toys. They would sell quite a few of them So like not many toys like big Toy toy like a plush toy. Yes. Thank you. That's exactly what I mean like a plushy toy. Yes, that's exactly right That would be very funny like a little turtle toy and give it to my dogs. Anyways, all right, so Yeah, great video and happy to see all the rats in there We got a preview for the new white dwarf with all of them all of them spiders. We did we did Three new battalions the loon shrine is being updated so it'll clearly just like it does for the other two armies It'll bring back the spider writers Maybe if we're if we're really good it'll bring back the Stop it. It'll bring back the skitter strand like an unknown one. That would be amazing. It won't It'll just it'll just simply bring back spider units, which you know what I don't hate No, it's real good Because you often run sort of an MSU style with that so there's lots of them Which means you're like actually getting a fair amount of chances to to balance these units back on the table Yeah, like if we had that and they were reduced in points Where we could run tens feasibly? Yeah, like Yeah, I'd be interested like you have my Yep I mean it's always gonna be a bit of a squishy army Yeah, yeah, thanks, but it's cool Dan you ever played against some spiders. What do you think of the spider goblins? No, I haven't I haven't played against them ever. I saw a lot of them on the tables of can con Not last year the year before and there's a couple of spider armies running around and Seth and Simon running them But I haven't seen them much since sort of 2019. So it'd be good if a few people get to put them back on the table real dependent on that always strikes last spell or Or the catapult that makes always strikes last or getting or getting the charge Real dependent upon that and not getting in multiple fights at the same time. Sure Uh, you know, I mean I do Think there's lots of things you could do there With those rules like they've proven that they can do a lot of work with a sub faction of battalion You know and and a war scroll or two being updated. So We'll see The entire army when you're in spider heavy does two mortals on the bite instead of one base Sure like things like that would be a big deal. Yes 100% Yeah, so we'll see. Yeah. So, uh, yes, I know I'm sure Paul who's in the chat is beyond excited Uh, Paul being the preeminent, uh spider Rider follower. I don't know what a what a web spinner. There you go web spinner. Let's go for that one Yes There you go. All right, cool beans What else we got? um We have the five new books for war cry that are dropping Yes, um, which will include a collection for each grand alliance and then the telma champions for the 2020 Release. Yep Um, just to answer manzac real quick here any any news on what this month's for egw model is Yes, it was the it's the death guard Um, December as you go visit the store. It's the death guard icon bearer guy He has the little triple bloat fly symbol of nergal in front of him. He's holding cool looking model cool death guard guy Um, let's see how special I didn't get my witch off. There you go Man And that's tied obviously to the the death guard coin and we know next month We're getting the heat knights coin and I'm sure we'll get a heat knights person for free. So I hope it's one of the awesome like new Like jewelry laden guys and not a day that Yeah Yeah, that'd be sweet. I'll be all about it. Anyways, it's probably a david at but Yes, uh, all right, so let's talk about so you we I'm sorry back to work right. Yeah Toma champions cool beans Looks like a lot of new stuff in there a triumphant treachery multiplayer rules Looks like they did a little balancing little clarity on some stuff. So Okay It's fine Great. I'm happy they're publishing the big tomes So that people actually have all the core rules corrected in one place The idea that they published this game originally and just said we're going to make limited run cards as the The mechanism for you knowing the stats of your people that's that was such a non-starter like those always should have been The game aid to some kind of book that was out there for it. Yeah, right? Yeah Just seemed to completely shortchange the system from the start, right? Right because there were so many people who couldn't find the cards They wanted they were sold out or they were unavailable in their area Or whatever, you know, and that's really that's just unfortunate These are people who want to play this game and literally just don't have a way to get the thing other than going and hoping they can google it out You know and find like images somebody's posted the cards like that's crazy That the rules of your game would not be available somewhere like that's nuts Um So yeah, uh happy to see the books looks like it'll be a good collection of everything Uh, it'll also be cool because I imagine they'll bring in the special edition cards that were always dumb So like the ones that was in the snuffler in the gets that came special in the gets box and the um The banshee in that night one. Yeah, the stabby stabby banshee in the night haunt. Yes May I talk about it feel bad? Yeah, sure that you have to buy that book. Yes Um, we also got some news of some new boxes for them for war cry, which is cool Coming soon the sylvanuth one we all were really excited about and then it turned out it was more expensive but so that Yeah, that's that deal was too good to be true. It was if it is it is Good to see the shadows Yes, I missed the price. What was the price on the 75 not 50 like the rest So, you know, yeah, you're right like good to see the shadow stalker is going to be available the uh, obviously the sylvanuth one we're referencing box was like what three Kernoth and five tree revs. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, I mean even amazing at 50 still not bad 75 honestly so Yeah, that's true um, because that is Those two boxes are are like a hundred bucks or more a little more than a hundred bucks. It's on my cap. So right Um All that's in us dan. I assume down there They're like probably the cost of like a mid-sized sedan something in that range Yeah, something like that, especially when you like me have bought sort of 21 kernoth hunters over the years. Sure Yeah Could have a vacation house or 21 kernoth hunters. It's really but it's close. I mean, that's a lot of that's a lot of Firepower that you're bringing on the board with your sylvanuth. So that's nice. Got that going for you Okay So, uh, cool. Yeah, I mean, I'm excited for all the work right stuff Uh, I don't know that there's any of those I want to pick up because I already have most of them that I want I the only ones that tempt me a little are the shadow things Just because they be fun to paint. They look pretty cool. Um, I wish we had points for them Yeah, things that they've taken a long to put them out When are we getting the app updated? When are we getting all like points for those shadow stuff like when is this stuff happening? I don't know It's a mystery. I wonder like are we just waiting for The winter FAQ and then big bang we do it all at once That's what I assumed is that they're trying to get all their ducks in a row So that they can like literally pull the trigger all at once because of the changes that are going to drop Like they avoid outrage if the points are low if other changes have been made sure So like because this is actually the FAQ the points change that's done correctly where we get everything all in one day Right, we don't have it split up where we get a weird book and then two weeks later We get a PDF with the other half or anything crazy like that So, um You know my hope is They just go okay Here's that let's say within the next two weeks. Here's the winter FAQ. Here's all the new points We've updated everything Right. Here's your points for your shadow stalkers. Everything's been updated in the app Everything's been, you know updated in and scroll builder and so on right just like Done and Dustin Uh, yes, I uh All of the existing war cry war bands who've said aren't they all like 70 to 80 points? Yelp, but these if they're if these are 70 points Get out of here you're gonna see like three of these at mean In units of 30 By the buy or they come in groups of nine. Is that right in units of 27? You're gonna see units of 27 of these multiples of them in like every doc army because it would be the most terrifying thing Can you imagine 27 of those guys teleport nine inches off the back? Yeah, they'll they'll jump or they'll get super buffed Like you'll super buff them. You'll sippy cup them. You'll you'll uh, Mind raise room. You'll do everything to them and then they'll just They'll just go And they'll just be there now Yeah, I mean personal feeling they should probably come in about 140 that feels right And I think yeah, I'm one one 140 feels about right higher would be uncomfortable lower would be really aggressive Yep, I agree. I think that's kind of the the running Belief is that they'll be 140, but we'll see they've surprised me before So yeah, I've uh, I've budgeted 140 on my list. Okay, gotcha Sure 140 points for tom winning Well, I mean like 140 gets you a whole lot now that off army like there's a lot of utility at that 140 point there is And there's just like there's like It's both your snakes and yeah Both your snakes your blood lady and yeah fire like everybody's 140 now. Yeah So It's true. All right other news. Um Her chasm the roadmap dropped and we got glimpses of the future We did let's get into it. What are we talking about here? One boom, january chaos people We've seen fine. Great. Love it. Awesome. Look in warband beautiful sculpts Clear fantastic a plus with the ready to get the twins in the table going to be buying these up. No doubt No doubt February what's happening in february? Well, not only Uh, not only uh, is it the shortest month of the year? But we also get this little adorable guy and the seraphon warband. Who's excited? I'm excited Are we going to get a new plastic kraiger? who knows We all hope for and then what is this bow? bow Bow Why am I saying bow because here's our march It's got this little symbol. This is a vampire symbol. No, it is not the silent one symbol I've heard that the silent one symbol has all the little dots in the eyes It doesn't have quite the same ear pieces like you know how close they play with these symbols And that is clearly a vampire. Look at this vampire. Look at her. Look at her swagger Can you tell us female by the way right here? Look at this. Look at this incredible basket hill rapier cutlass actually it's a cutlass Maybe a saber honestly, but anyways doesn't matter It's dual cutlass is basket hill. You see the boots. You see the standard washbucklery boots Yeah It's like all of it's there and it's gonna be Beautiful Now this raises the threat That vampires is just a underworld's warband that this is a karnathi situation That all of those rumor engines were just like they look they lined up the four or five things The vampire it's rumor engine right and they were just like snap snap snap snap snap They took like five pictures of each one Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean that may be the reality and if that's true We're gonna riot then we we riot. Yes. That's the exact right answer If that doesn't work, then we riot Um, look, I hope this heralds the coming of the new vampire vampire an army Which has also been the case that has also happened, right? You'll get the Underworld's warband about the time you get the army that has happened too Uh, you know, so for example, we got the little what's his name the little goofball troll guy With his little with his little weird menagerie of friends and then he showed up in the gitz book Right. He was a fun little guy and he showed up in there. Malog. That's his name, right? Yep. Yeah. Yep. So, you know sometimes the karnathi really kind of stand out There's not that there's a couple others, but they stand out as the most Obvious one where it was like man a lot of people clearly want that to be uh You know, it's oh an army and we haven't seen it yet But yes, if everybody buys that's a good point if everybody buys a vampire a warband will get an army Okay, that's how we solve this. I mean, I mean totally and I would like to be honest I would probably just make the army Like if I got a warband, I would probably just make that army Sure, you know, it's that's a heck of a conversion project. But yes, I get it I made a giant army five years before there are four years before there was giants rules. So I understand Yep. Yep. Like it would probably just happen. Sure Uh, okay, so I think that brings us to the end of the news, right? Let's talk about the rest of the symbols. Oh, uh, bone splitters, uh, OBR and I'd net deep again Yep, I agree with all those assessments The only thing that I would say I agree with bone splitters. That was my gut reaction on April the other possibility there would potentially be, um, spider Sure. Yeah, it's a question. What are you? What are you leaning behind the bone going through the middle? Or the fangs coming down here. What's the dominant aesthetic thing? Yep. Yep. Yep. So yeah, and so like it could be They're green either way The models are green. It's either spiders or it's it's bone splitters. I don't care either way personally Um, but it could be either and then yes, this is OBR and that's IDK. So Yep, absolutely um so Cool, and I do agree like uh as paul pointed out there was an old rumor engine That really looks a lot like a spider leg So could be that spider leg is from here, right? It's true. Yeah Yep, and how awesome would it be to get some more spider models? Uh, it'd be cool, especially in the midst of like actually having their new rules coming out in white dwarf next month So, uh, yes Um, yeah Cool. All right. Is that all our news? That's the news. That's the news. Uh, I was gonna say, I think there's the only other thing was the the comments day in the, um slanish Diar chasm. Oh, yes release confirming Uh slang or coming. Yes. Thank you very much in the diar chasm release. They had the though They had slag strike or whatever his name is slag slash slag slag slash slag slag slag They love having Noises in slanesh Shanesh is my super favorite. Um So the Uh, yes, they had slag slash And at the bottom they had a cheeky little reference to like, oh I wonder if there's more Things coming like him. Maybe he's a herald for uh, we know we know we saw him in the background Of the image stop playing coy with us Put out the pictures of all of these other models. I want to see the slang gore units I think they're going to be bigger by the way like slag slash is pretty big like he's on like a 40 mil ish base or something Is he going to be on 50s? No, I think the whole unit's going to be on 40s because I think they're going to be like bigger things Like maybe emaciated Bulls Happy big gore small bulls somewhere in the middle, right? Right. Um, so I don't know Maybe they maybe they won't but they looked big even in the background. Like you only saw two of them Yeah hanging out in the background of the group photo. You didn't see like, um You know like a big pack of them like you do There wasn't a unit of five or anything sitting in the bank, right, right exactly Okay Vince Do you want to address that? I'm fine. Don't worry about it. No, I'm good. We're fine All right, they're not going to catch anything through the computer Tom. So it's okay. Um, all right, uh Yeah, so I'm I'm excited Let's see those Let's see those like I wanted to see all the new range. I'm glad they confirmed it That that further convinces me. We were correct originally Right when we said like, oh, this is a unit of slang gore. This is a caster This is archer unit and then some kind of big centerpiece Palanquin thing The fact that we got one of them one of the fuzziest ones Right. Yeah, and it just got confirmed tells me. Yep. We're good Like and and I want a new book so badly. I really want to see a new Uh, a new book that expands out what it means to play slanesh. So there you go. I think that might be coming Indeed Dan, what's your thoughts? Do you want a new slanesh book? Would you like to see the old one put in the ash bin of history? Yes um largely just because it's been so kicked around since release and Now we get all ahead. Um, now we get all the mortals in Yeah, I agree. We've got you know, like Five ish nerfs that have happened to that book in somewhere or another No, uh, it's got stuff spread out all over the place to like The wrath of the ever chosen and a bunch of other weird places and so leskens host In faith others. Yep. And you've got a complete FAQ for like the summoning points to where you have to Print that page out and keep it in your book, right? So just replace it just replace it. It is it is one of those books that they should just Okay, we missed That's all right. We we missed on this one Let's try again It's all right. It's okay Uh I wouldn't care if they got the silver nests treatment as long as they weren't You know as long as they had all the new stuff in one book and uh, Like I don't care if they lose I play, you know, I don't I don't mind losing um I just want everything to I just don't want to have to go to five different sources to find my janky rules all over the Place and get a half book and like oh i'm playing slanesh Let me flip through these 18 different resources. That's just You know, give me some more interesting ways to play. All right pick of the week. Here we go Dan, you've got to share with everybody. What would you like to share out there? I would like to share the awesome pro painted studios token trades and gaming boxes People may have seen them all over twitter But they are a series of sort of magnetic connecting layers You can build your sort of gaming box of choice with a dice tray storage box and then various trays for tokens and measuring sticks And I always love cool swag and accessories. Um, so that's my pick of the week It's super cool. I checked it out. I will have the link down there below Uh And yes, don't worry ashikas if they do come out with a new slanesh book Of course, we'll do another six hour show. We'll have to Because it'll be even bigger than last time Tom what's your what's your uh pick of the week? Yeah, so this can be obviously related pretty closely to what we're um, what we're talking about today But two plus tough Released a video 13 hours ago or so On uh as kind of a review of the getting started box set for skinks And so I would encourage you to check it out. It's just a great. Um, a great treatment of uh Of the skink box and uh, yeah, I always love dubs. Uh excitement for things. Nice. Nice dig it Uh for myself, I've got to shout out our our good buddy hooves of doom Who put out a video today? That Look, you probably won't like it. It's probably not for you If you're an erudite individual interested in the history of late 19th and 20th century philosophy of of language And how that can apply to warhammer if you're a person of class And style and substance then perhaps this video will be for you, but if you're not that's okay move along No issue, but if you feel that you're up to the challenge of this content So then I would highly recommend you go check it out. It's great. Uh, no, you put out a great video diminishing language in warhammer Talks about all sorts of interesting things and how how the term warhammer comes around. It was a lot of fun I really like it. I like anybody who makes philosophical illusions into and connects it to warhammer. That's what I'm here for Uh, so that's great. I very much enjoyed that video Uh, and very enthusiastic thumbs up for me Speaking of which you can hit like to in this video if you like this so far if we've been doing all right hit like see I remembered earlier in the show Don't wait professional. That's right. That's what we're here for calls to action. All right. So that's my all those links will be down below Uh, Dan, I doubt you have anything to show us given your current location But have you been getting in any hobby time this week? You've been working on anything? Uh, bit some pieces around uh, the newborn at home. So I've got a um, uh, bestill it on and And a stegadon sitting on the desk being painted up at the moment next to the 96 partially built skinks which are looking at me judging me for not completing them. Um, but How could they be partially built a skink is like one piece? What's not on a misshield? Uh, not the new kits new kits like four pieces and you're gonna get rid of the mold lines Gotcha. Uh, I understand all of my skinks are like the Fifth edition version versus lizardman box skinks. So they're all just like a guy with a bow down here or a bow up here That's it. This is the two This is the two choices Yeah, so much easier one piece So that's my hobby. Nice. That's awesome. I can wear nice Do you have a fun color scheme in mind that you want to use for these guys? So the theme of the army And it's not because skinks are broken Was southland's sort of desert themed homage to fighting in the desert. So the army is Desert colored So using a lot of contrast paints and skeleton hoard and dry bushing up With some a thematic blue as sort of highlights. Um, and then mixed in with a load of obr pieces Um, so the skink star seer. I haven't quite decided if it's going to be the skink star seer or um Or one of the slants will be on the sort of walkie chair From obr The obr endless spell with the bird is going to be used as the skinks as the pterodon chief's mount Yes, yes, the pterodon chief is going to be flying one of those. Yeah, we'll be on the big vulture thing Um, and there'll be a variety of other sort of obr things splattered through That is amazing. I love this Uh That's fantastic. I I love mixing those two together. That sounds super fun. Uh You should replace the little zappy thing at the top of the The pyramid with just some of the bone reaper Like the bone reaper thing just make a super tall It greed just like they like put the But just sort of pile on on top right on the top of the pyramid so it can just really be ridiculous. Yeah Yeah I love it. All right, uh tom. What about yourself? What are you been working on buddy? Uh, so I previewed a little bit. So i'm doing my new gun hauler Yeah So Yeah, that's uh, it's coming out nice now. We got to get that guy painted tom Yeah, I'll work on it. I'll get I'll get there. All right I'm just saying i'm dying over here and i'm getting more painted than you. Uh, so uh for myself Uh, I finished up my test scheme for my Lord on Carcadrack, uh that I was thinking about using for my new mortal sonesh Um, I'll share him out here and I got in a day or two or whatever um And uh, yeah, I'm pretty sure I hate this so I don't think I'm gonna do this scheme, but I finished this guy I painted it all the way through and then I got to the end and I was like Yep I don't like that Nope So that's fun So I'm not gonna do that. So now I got this guy He's ready to go. This is my uh, the lord of um The lord of pain or whatever Yep And I'm just sitting here staring at him because I don't know what to I mean He doesn't have much in the way of armor or color scheme on him. He's mostly like, you know He's mostly leather And uh and a little bit of metal, but there's some stuff I need to decide So I just been sitting staring at him Trying to figure out what I want to do Uh, so yeah, there we go Uh, okay So at any rate, uh Hopefully more more tests soon. We'll get there. We'll get there Uh, all right Cool Well with that done, uh, vince suddenly remembered that he needed to be Keeping time stamps on this stuff Uh, this late in the show. Whoops That's okay So, uh, as somebody recommends, maybe it should just be teal and magenta What's that Maybe your slanette should just simply be teal and magenta Oh, yeah, sure. I mean that would be the the low hanging fruit, right? Certainly. Yes, absolutely Um, okay So at any rate, uh I'll grab the time for pick and hobby after we're done. I got the time for this All right, let's talk seraphon folks. All right. Lots to talk about here Uh Dan you're obviously getting into seraphon. So you're a believer Then you saw the seraphon's face now. You're a believer So, uh, what what's getting into the lizards? Why why do you like it? What what's your What's your overall read on the army right now? The overall read is that it's highly competitive. Um, the Thank you. We'll just get that out here right now. Yep Tick number one, um, it is a very strong army in competitive match play Uh tick number two, uh, the models are cool Take number three. I wanted to do southland lizards tick number four You've got the option of a book where you can genuinely build a different army for probably each of the four sub factions And get value out of it. So the idea of going well, actually I don't want to build 96 skinks Um, instead I want stompy monsters. Um, and I can take some stompy monsters and do okay Um with a smaller number of skinks. Let's be real. Um, well incomplete monsters. Um But yes, lots of lots of options lots of choice lots of things to play with Yeah, I agree with all that it is a like on one hand this book remains one of the big successes That I think they've had because when I look at things like how the sub factions are defined And the types of play styles they enable and incentivize and how different they feel and different they play Um, when you look at the difference between like how the two starborn factions play versus how the two coalesced factions play, right? Uh You know, I think all of that is very successful. Um, where I think this army goes over the top is like uh It is super competitive and super synergistic Like to a level that would make dock Uh seem like nothing like I mean dock envies this level Of just sort of blanket synergy And everybody's got both abilities that don't cost points and command abilities that might you know, you're using stuff for You've got multiple avenues of buffing not just spells Not just sort of abilities some require roles some are just automatic Uh You've got Uh A lot of different potential Hammers in the army like things that can do damage in lots of different ways It's versatile And a lot of the units in there are of Real value Right. Um, that is to say like you can see well, I could play this or I could play this or I could play this or I could play this right, there's like so much of So much of this book has potential play. That's crazy. Yep Yeah, you just don't have to make sacrifices. You don't have to make choices Um In terms of going okay Well, what what what is the thing that I'm going to build or lean into? Like you do with other books you go Now I'll have everything I'll have spell domination. I'll have long range. I'll have good movement I'll have cheap infantry. I'll have a plenty of wounds Um, I'll have board control. I can have some summoning. Um, I can have high damage output I can have mortal wounds And I can have all of that in the same list. Yeah Yeah, it's just uh, it's just I don't know we all talk about it. There's different Um winners and losers in terms of books that they put out and this is one that just Doesn't have to make compromises. It doesn't you know, here's ultimately my argument. This book is Somewhere around Skaven 1.0 Okay Yeah, that's good That is to say like and again, I don't want to get too trapped in the analogy What I want people to to tag on to here is the the thematic element, right? Which is they have a lot a lot a lot of potential synergies and powerful things they can utilize that are often fairly difficult to disrupt unless you have a very particular type of army And they don't have to make sacrifices. They can get it all in the In the list, right? Yep. So You know, like they're just getting too much too cheaply across the board That's that's what it comes down to Like if I when I think about like what this why is this army so dominant? Well, they dominate every phase and most armies Are able to just build a single list that can dominate in every phase or at least control every phase even if they can't dominate right, you know Skaven points eventually went up And now Skaven have to make a lot of choices. You can't just get everything in there, right? um So, yeah My argument is they're getting too much too cheap, you know, Dan You and I were looking over like lists earlier and you'd see lists that had like four hammers multiple utility heroes Right and endless spells right And you know being led by this named character who still has all the trimmings by the way, right? He's not he's not like running around just him And They're packing 140 Wounds so they're higher than average wounds Right. It's just like they've sacrificed nothing Like these guys are are ready to rock no matter what's going on. So At any rate, we'll get into some individual stuff, but I mean, I'll tell you right now I'm just gonna I'm just gonna advance this at the beginning of it A bunch of stuff in this book needs to go up 10 to 20 points like a bunch like just across the board Many things just go up 10 to 20 points That's my supposition on how to fix this book. You're getting too much stuff move a bunch of stuff up Yep, right. Yep That's it. I don't want to see any one thing broken Uh, even that dumb dead frog Which we can talk about we can talk about him next we can talk about the croak of it all Right, I don't want to see these guys broken Seraphons a cool army. I have a seraphon army. I like playing it and I play like I would argue the fairest version of it Uh, and then I'm playing a thunder lizard with like a skink chief on stegodon and a bunch of stegodon monsters I am doing mostly monsters and some sorus sure uh But like yeah, I think a bunch of things just need to go up 10 to 20 points, right And that and and like by the way that includes croak and all of his attache's Right, like so the reality is they are just skaven 2.0. Yes I mean like if you want to look at what seraphon are now it's what pre-adjustments skaven work Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yes Right, maybe like slightly post because there's a little obviously we got the sallies adjusted up Which was good. I mean they were way out and they were way out of the box Like they weren't even close to the in the box Yeah, they they were hanging out with the z stuff Yeah In like in in looney tunes town of undercosted. Yes Right of like, hi What are you one of the best shooting units and one of the best melee units in the game? And you can accept buffs from every buff in this army and you're how much? That doesn't seem right. It does not seem right It goes to like the old question of how much synergistic Ability is factored into pointing and you you tom you were having this discussion with gw folks back in 2016 Right. I was I gave feedback on the On the I gave a pretty extensive write-up on the tomb kings changes. Yeah, that was that was what triggered this originally Dan, I mean, how do we how do you tackle this? Right? You look at some armies Like this is why I don't love comparing unit to unit in the in the absence, right? Especially across armies people often do this like oh, well this unit's 130 points and over here in this army They only pay 100 for it, you know, and I'm like, okay, but also uh The you know the synergies of an army like this We're like every skink priest every like, you know, there's just buffs buffs buffs buffs buffs buffs Buffs buffs right that I can put on stuff. What am I paying for all of that? Right, how much does all that get figured in to the functionality? uh So Also ryan sanza, I would definitely disagree. I mean I can mathematically show you that teklis is weaker than than croak by far uh teklis is teklis is You know about the same price is what we're going to call it right now because I consider the the build out for croak to be croak an ash release banner bear a unit of five guard and the bail wind like that's the standard build and that's 640 Okay And he has more wounds than teklis. He's tougher. He can withstand more he can cast Basically better probably um for all intents and purposes in what he sears down. He'll probably outcast teklis Okay And he'll do way more damage like it's not even close Yep, yep, yep, yep, especially against like chaos armies Which are very prevalent. I mean he'll just rock the socks It's not even close Mathematically he can take like 50 percent more damage than teklis So He's he's tough He's dominating There is a reason every list contains him whenever you're looking at across the list and and every list every competitive list You see it time after time after time after time when it's like When you've got 12 top fives and 11 of them or 12 of them have croak in there He he doesn't have less wounds effectively crazy horse when you matched in with the the That is not mathematically how it works with the guard. I'm not going to get into it I'll put up the I'll put up the mountain math if you want. I'll do a special thing Anthony, but it's not true. It's a very simple math to show he has more wounds Okay so So you're just just picking up on your point there about the prevalence of croak and his sort of load out So 15 top fives um 12 of those have croak and I suspect for at least two of the ones where they weren't croak It was because They didn't want to be that guy at the event. I'm knowing the people that were running them So 12 out of 15 of those 12 11, he's accompanied with a bear when brought x 10 He's got an astrolith bear along with him as well But only four of those are ones where he also has five source guard So five source guard often being the first thing to get dropped Given that's a hundred points Exchange it for some other bodies and get the same effect elsewhere. Yeah It's an interesting trade like I can see it. I'll tell you that I don't know. I like the full kit I think the full kit's reasonable. You're definitely getting 700 points worth of value out of croak That's why I say him and all his cronies need to go up like 10 20 points Like that. He should be pushed up slightly Because he's just I mean he's he's a dominant force on the battlefield like his power projection is madness He can reach out and really just like Start having massive impacts on parts of the board. He's nowhere near Causing lots of damage Right and it's very hard for many armies to have any chance of reprisal against him Like that's the reality of the thing It's not that whenever we talk about this whenever we talk about something that's strong Like when I talked about the 60 liberator build in your face and why I think patrol is just stupid and should be erased from the game um Like I just think it's bad warhammer Whenever I talk about this the the thing that always comes up in the comments or something is well, yes But this thing can beat it. Cool. Nothing in warhammer is a hundred percent. That's not what we're talking about It's not a question of like croak isn't a hundred percent win. It's not like every tournament suddenly gets won by seraphon That's not the discussion plenty of people kill croak. Plenty of people beat seraphon. It happens, right? The discussion we're having is that they're out of bounds Right, they're too good accomplishing too much and are too efficient For what they're doing. It's not that they're like, oh, this is so broken Like no, we're just having a conversation about why things are out of bounds. That's it It could still be beat. Cool Cool beans. Um, yeah, I mean, I'd love to see croak go up to at least 400 person I'd love to see him go up to 500. I hate him. I hate that stupid frog so much But that's my personal vendetta I do not like that this dumb character this dumb old fine cast model from the old world who should have been dead and got a Moon dropped on him is somehow still the most prevalent force in the seraphon army Uh, so at any rate, but that's my personal vendetta The reasonable answer is you put everything up 20 points or something like that and you make that whole package push over 700 So they do have to get rid of some of the pieces, right? Exactly what you said, Dan, right? So maybe they're not taking the guard or maybe they're not taking the You know the The banner bearer as much and they're having to, you know, work with a shorter range or maybe they cut the bail window, you know, whatever Right, yep So Yeah, uh, okay Enough croak. Shall we leave croak behind? Let's let's not I don't want I don't want to just it be the croak show Uh, okay Uh, so so hams. I'll say one more saying our ham smash that if croak stays under 400 Then all the tools in his kit need to go up 20 each two. Yes. That's what I'm saying I think the answer is right. Don't kill him. Like I I know joking aside. I'd love to see him I'll put him at 2,000 points a sucky stupid frog. Um, but at any rate, um, no I think the right answer is you keep them pretty reasonable Maybe he's 360 maybe somewhere around there and then all of his accoutrements go up 20 points Just a little bit. Yeah, like if you do that to all of them, suddenly he gets 20 points to this. Yeah, exactly. Yep You're making real decisions. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I think that's right uh All right, let's talk about um, I want to talk about some of the fun builds like Every build for the most part is starting with croak right now Oh noops Noops in the comments saying bring back mazda mooney. That was always my salon the dude who wrote a round on a stegadon That's how you can get a good ride. You're right on a stegadon. Yes. Mazda moody was cool Uh, just put a new salon on a stegadon. It doesn't have to be mazda moody mazda moody's space dust now There's space dust. He is atoms atoms Dust less than dust at any rate. We can have a new guy on on a stegadon. That'd be cool Uh, what do you see in dan? What do you think when you're looking around like what do you want to build? What is the It's not all skink spam out there or something like skinks are outrageously powerful But that's not all what it is. So what is what are you looking at? What have you got your eyes on? What do you think are the other pieces of tech here that are valuable? Well, um from my perspective, I did start with uh skink spam. Um, but the difference was um Adding in other options in terms of pterodons. I like pterodons. There were also models. They're a paint transport um They give you something different. Um, so having the nine pterodon riders running around I think I did one list that had sort of two units of 12 pterodon riders at one point Um go full sort of ride of the valkyries making sort of apocalypse now noises as she moves them across the board um as key for me um In terms of seeing what other sort of builds are out there it's hard like The two bestilladon Pew Pew Thunder Lizard build is very common or taking those as a piece in a dracothean's tail list Um, so you often see the two bestilladon solar engines getting dropped in Um, haven't seen people taking your favorite the stegadon with skink skink chief One person in the uk One an event with stegadon with stink chief as the general um, look here's what i'm saying that dude hidden Badass he is amazing That little guy gets underestimated all the time, but you put him in thunder lizard It's pretty easy to get like plus three to plus five To all of his attacks depending on you know, which part of the profile you're on because they you know Some is only mountain some is only him and you know, whatever. Yeah, and Yep Uh, that dude went down He went down in cost at the over the summer. He didn't go up. He went down. He got 20 down 20 cheaper He is a boss Like this guy can hit so hard If you just like if you just kind of focused all the the buffs into it Which again, you know, that's what this army's all about like here's a swath of buffs And it's just like the it's like some kind of laser focusing system There are they all come together and like boop onto one unit and then that unit Shoots forward explode something So, yeah So the UK guys list was thunder quake temple host in thunder lizard stegadon with stink skink chief Slan skink star sia, which i know you like to 40 saw as warriors stegadon stegadon three salamanders bound geminates And the extra cp Yeah, I like that list. I see like I think one of the really fascinating things about this army is again like we talked about There's so much To play here that's valuable. They did a great job With this force and by the way to somebody earlier who thinks i'm being petty because i'm saying this i'm not I'm not trying to be petty. I'm looking at their win percentage, which is higher than it should be It's outside of the fat middle I'm looking at the number of times they top five versus everybody else and i'm looking at things like their average wounds I mean i'm doing this mathematically. This isn't just like my opinion, man I mean it is somewhat but it's also backed up by facts At any rate, I love this army. I think this is like I said at the beginning it was a success Some of the things you didn't mention, uh, dan saw us knights Right. Yeah, I was it's interesting your view on this. So when the book came out, we heard a lot about fire allowance Um saw us knights the sort of seven attacks a model Um throwing 15 saw us knights across the board. Yeah, have we seen that? No, there are I don't think any of these 15 lids lists have a single saw us knight in them Um, so just why are we not seeing them? On the table, especially since they're in they're in the start collecting box This is true. Hold on. I want to I want to say something though yet the top list right now in the butcher's buffet tournament has 15 saw us knights as a hammer unit with my little buddy the skink star seer Which I think is what's been holding the saw us knights back right uh the um Yes, by the way, abyssal dragon. We've talked before about why ko and zige also need to get wheeled back and need changes Yes, we've had that exact same discussion on the show all three of these armies are out of whack. Yes Yep, they were all above where they should be right mathematically. They're all above where they should be um So and each one needs its own fixes, but anyway, uh the Uh, I think the skink star seer being in the butcher's buffet. This is what makes it does is what makes it pop because he can turn on Right the 3d6 charge And the problem with the saw us knights is they don't have like the raw speed Now if you put them in one of the firelands where you can get plus three charge and then you give them a 3d6 charge right all of a sudden That unit is super fast Right, yeah, like super duper crazy fast like a plus a 3d6 plus three charge is from downtown Boom, you're you're in somebody's face like you just that is an explosive unit And it's gonna like in the in the quaddles claw one, which I love it in I love it in quaddles claw Uh, which is what this butcher's buffet list is using Obviously, it's getting the jaws buff. So you're talking about seven attacks base coming out of the guys but he's also Got the regular Uh skink star priest in there too not the little skink priest, but he has the skink star priest So he can still give them he can give the saw us knights the sixes or mortal wounds Uh, so you've got a unit of 15 dudes making seven attacks each All sixes are two hits and all sixes proc mortal wounds. What a beautiful hammer this is Like that's a hell that that was the tech right? To me the star seer makes it work That's the that's the piece That's my answer Dan That is such a nice list and for um people that might not have seen it or watched Rob show, I think he's gone through it with Owen Jackson Covering butchers buffet that was quarrels claw croak with stellar tempest Astrolith bearer So usual tech scar veteran on karnosauce the general command trade dominant predator artifact Eviscerating blade star priest and star seer as Finn says pterodon chief 10 skinks 10 skinks five saws guard Then the two other hammers the 15 saw us knights the 12 pterodon riders our wind vortex bound geminets Gold I love it. It's a beautiful list. I love this list It's got like four ridiculous hammers like just ready to go in one of them's kind of weak, but it seems okay The the the uh karnosaur guy. He's all right. Um, but those that 15 Saw us knights my god. Yeah, and they're just gonna explode out of there. Like I said with this massive charge and They're gonna doubt, you know, like it's so easy to get all the buffs on them And and then by the way next round you can do it with the pterodons In the meantime, you can fly them over and blows, you know drop 20 mortal wounds onto a unit Sure with rocks, right, which is not bad. It's pretty good Just for flying over a unit. They can do 20 mortals. It's not too not too shabby Not too shabby There's not many units that love 20 mortal wounds. Let me just say that So it's probably good. It's probably good, which is by the way, that's the average mortal wound output of a pterodon chief buffed 12 pack of Uh pterodon riders just 20 mortal wounds Just so everybody understands the math there because it switches the the Chance to trigger the mortals when they fly over and drop their rocks from a four up to a two up So you get if you have 12 pass over 10 hit mathematically and there you go Anyway, okay, cool beans. Yeah, anything else in the anything else in the in the in there that's got your attention Do you think people might be sleeping on? Uh, or that you think are that we've seen a lot of value or people starting to explore Not really. There's only a very few other pieces. There's a couple of people in europe in sweden and germany running engine of the gods Um type builds one crazy person also has the skink oracle on trogladon in the build Which is a brave soul But no the the sort of lists that are out there all Around several key pieces Um a lot of celestin primes Yeah, less than primes out there. Sure. Um, it's the only ally that seems to get taken He's a good ally. I mean he fits in well with the general plan of what you're doing with crook Right, like they they tend to combo up pretty well to just like pop down and and overwhelm some area at the board with mortal wounds So, yeah Yeah, I mean the only other thing that I think um Like we mentioned the the skink chief on stegadon. I really do stand behind that guy He can hit like an absolute truck like people think i'm i'm joking around here I really mean it like if you build him in a in a thunder lizard you will he will like Math out to 30 to 45 damage on the charge Like that's crazy That's double. He'll he'll like double your the any of like the mega gargants He's so crazy damaging if he gets in with all those buffs on him Um his math is nuts So that guy's fun because nobody sees it coming. Nobody's like this little tiny dude On a on a triceratops and I like it whatever and then he comes in he just blows up an entire unit of 40 guys without breaking a sweat Uh, it's pretty good Uh chameleons the other thing we should mention. I see a lot of people running like the Sort of 20 20 blocks of those. Yeah I've seen a couple um One guy I think in France took 40 to 20s Um to an event and did well with them um, otherwise, I've just um seen them at one other new zealand event. Otherwise just TTS events So chameleon skinks probably model related Yeah, I That chameleon skink that's in the new underworlds work band in february Will be like the highest price single, you know, miniature you can buy second hand on ebay Because everybody will want him to do Uh, everybody would want him to be like all of their chameleons and there's just no way like it's so expensive They're just not gonna make enough of these guys So he's gonna be up to like $30 for a for a single skink Go ahead Dan. Sorry I was gonna say I want the skink priest with the holy hand grenade. I know right that's the model I want that's the model. I want from the underworld. Oh my god. That guy was amazing like teeny weeny or is What somebody said he looked like and I was like, yeah, he does kind of look like teeny weeny Uh, oh man. I thought that dude was cool. Yeah, just it looks like he's got a thermal detonator or whatever Uh, yes, loved it loved it Sorry, I had to mute here. I didn't want to grip it and rip it like tom When it was when and when he's normally opening a soda just cracks it right in the microphone Okay Not a lean into those Yeah Yes, there you go. Caleb Hastings steggy chief and thunder lizards and thunder quake fully buffed will do about 35 damage to a 4 plus Say if he is awesome. That's exactly right now. Yes. He is People are sleeping on this this this monster. That's all I'm saying He's a he's a destructive engine and I love him. Okay. Anyways, uh, okay, so Uh What is the what's the weakness of this army that we've seen? What's outpacing it like what's doing well against it? We think overall either competitively In tournaments just in theory crafting like what do you think is its big weaknesses or weakness? Because we've said this thing plays in every phase and I think it does it's a spelldom Right croak can dominate the magic phase having somewhere between like two and four to cast pretty easy Um, it doesn't really have a traditional anvil Like it has things that can serve as anvils, right? sure, but But it doesn't have the standard, uh Like it doesn't have the three up rerollable ones Sure anvil Like heavy box with like some kind of five up after save type of thing just whatever, you know some kind of nonsense like that It has stuff that can hold in retreat Yeah, sure Like that can that can stick and hold Yeah, okay, so I think that's fair I think that big Blocks of sorus are okay at this especially if they get some of the like I mean there are multiple things in this army that give plus one to save Right, right. So like let's not cry for argentina here exactly, right? Um, but I do agree in most builds like in general a big block of sorus is not here power build Right, like that's not a winning strat there And although you can and like I have run like I have a ton of source because I actually love source I think source are like my favorite thing about the army. I just think they're super cool um so I think that they I like I've run a lot of source and had them be very hard to break because I'll get them up to like You know three up rerolling ones or two up, you know something like that, right? So it can do it It's just not like Uh, it's not going to show up in most lists right um so Yes, that is correct. One of those can go on a source as crazy or said But obviously you can be on cover or on a big piece of terrain or something like that. Okay, great Like I took over a central objective that was on uh On like the big arcane diocese or not whatever it is that that temple set Right, and I just had all my dudes up on there had them buffed and it was like You know, I had I had the little star seer Uh, because I've been I've been repping that dude for a while I ease my ease my dog right there and just gave him the plus one And let him sit there and be like two up and I could just all out defense and they were very hard to move All right, so it's about doable, but that's a weird army. That's not what most people see I think a lot of their heroes are weak and snipable as you learned when I was playing you With uh, when you were playing your ko and I was playing my seraphon and my poor little priests Would just be like running around and then getting popped popped And ko and deep ko and deepkin are the things that you often see Um, if you look at the sort of round by round breakdown They're the ones that the seraphon hit in sort of round four and get popped And so they end up quite a lot of the seraphon lists are ending up in the sort of fourth and fifth places If you're looking at the top fives quite a few thirds Um, so they're they're up there, but they might as if they hit one of the gatekeepers And they Struggle yeah can have a harder game Yeah, it's interesting because ko right now really does form a very difficult often antithesis to these guys right like If you're I'm not going to charge your stupid skinks with my boats So I'm not going to give you a free shooting phase or retreat Right, I'm just going to run away shoot your valuable stuff until the until the skinks Can't do mortal wounds to me anymore Right, and then I'll Then I'll come in and do the relevant thing of like chopping them down with some endring rigors Or just shooting into them and battle shocking them off because you have no heroes to To keep them around and even at bravery 10 you're not going to be able to withstand You know 20 casualties out of a out of a 40 unit, right? So Um stuff like that So I think ko is an interesting Um an interesting counter I think anybody who has like a huge amount of ranged power projection can be an interesting match for this I don't know that they're all as bad as ko ko has like a quite unique ability to really like often pick out and deal with Singular things very well Right like that hero that hero and that hero. I want them all dead this turn drop drop drop. They're all dead this turn There aren't a lot of people there aren't a lot of other armies They can do that like each certainly can put out the same just raw damage number, but it's a lot harder for them to get their pieces in place yeah What do you think about the new um new mirathi against them? So thinking about pieces which can only take a certain amount of damage Cell phone can't really hold them up. They can't do enough damage across enough phases or whatever Um, so they just get a big monster chomping through them I think it's um It would depend on what the build was uh, like exactly of dock, but you're talking about like The you're talking about having a buff off, right? It's like a synergy off. It's the two most synergistic armies going against each other and The you know the problem is going to be the dock heroes Would probably many heroes depending on what you're depending on what your Kid is right how many like hags on foot you have or whatever they're probably going to die before the The the seraphon heroes do right now That's how it was. I don't know that that's the case in a world of Where uh bloodstalkers are an interesting choice Hmm, right because if you've got tenors of snakes shooting 40 times in a round I don't know what that looks like and and six is being mortal wounds, right? That's suddenly a different world because maybe in the hero phase. I shoot down one of your little skinker dudes In the shooting phase. I shoot down a second one, right? I mean they have an outrageous reach They have an eight inch move in a 24 inch shot. It's very hard to hide from those bow snakes right They have a 32 edge effective range so And you've got you've got the various Canary units in order to keep them honest in terms of coming in around the back or right Coming on where you need it. So Seraphon players gotta gotta play intelligently in terms of movement Yeah, oh, let me answer a question in the in the In the chat here, which is m wiler says wouldn't the lizards be in the best position to do wounds in all the phases against marathi I thought that's what we were saying up front So the way marathi's rules work, it's not like 40k So you may be familiar with like the 40k rules where it's like you can only take x number of wounds per phase I think gaza ghoul has that or something like that Yeah That marathi's is much stronger hers is she can only take three wounds per turn so period she cannot die until the Bottom of two and that's assuming you went three three three Which is actually rather hard to do if somebody's even got half a brain in their head about how to play marathi Yeah Yeah, I think doc's an interesting matchup now. I really do I think the um I think stuff like calabron and with its ability to match your teleport Where you're getting in this like queen's gambit chess game, right? Or you're both trying to like teleport your units around and and really match everything you've got droppers They've got chameleons things like what's going on here. You know, I could just see this being like the cagiest cagiest match in In the world, right of a calabron with some bow snakes against a uh against a seraphon Starport list like it would be the craziest match up to watch no one would ever fight each other They would just teleport and and sometimes shoot And cast spells and like and then marathi would come screaming and it's always that You know, I mean if she gets into the meat of it She's very dangerous Right because she'll blow up any of their hammers in basically one round of combat down Right. Yep Like She just looks funny at 12 pterodons and they're dead I mean like that's not even a thing. She's gonna splat that unit against the wall like it's not even a joke uh Certainly like even sorus knights would be hard pressed like a big unit of 15 are probably gonna lose like A good half to 10 of their number pretty fast I guess her Yeah, she's just brutal now In combat and the fact that she's not getting answered. Yeah Uh, yeah, yeah, I agree. Okay, cool Uh All right Let's see Tom, what do you think? I mean you you you've been plotting out a lot of marathi lists. What's your what's your thought on this? um I think that um, I don't know is the answer honestly Um, I think that there is a lot of strength in what is here um, I think that uh, I think that doc Will give them a good game But I like I'm hesitant to say anything specifically regarding doc And talking about that matchup, uh, because we just don't know what's going to happen with the with the other rules. Sure And the reality is is that a lot of what we know of doc just likely won't survive Uh, it could be. Yeah, I mean depends on how much doc changes, right? Right. Yeah Uh, okay, cool Um, all right Yeah, no totally fair Are there I I think where they have Like they're strong matchups. Tell me if you think I'm off base here Excuse me They're strong matchups are like Basically anybody who has no ability to power project, right? Like that's almost a slam dunk win for them If you're like a ground pounder foot melee army Even if you're a very high damage one It usually doesn't matter they can chaff you they can run away from you They can teleport they can toy they can toy with you and more or less be rocking on the objectives And be working you down before you ever they're just working the body You know croaks over there popping off Maybe we've got Skinks blow piping right just blowing all day Whatever right and Uh, I think those armies almost just Are so on the back foot against the sort of quote unquote competitive build of this army, right? Um, they're just ready to be dominated I think the ones that that Have the the chance of success are as we've said ranged Or power projection, right those who can really threaten in interesting ways Um When they're trying to be in there like castle or whatever All right, because they want to move out and control the tempo. It's very much a tempo army Since they don't have handles they can just push forward and go come hit me Uh, yeah, so okay cool All right, uh, let's see Dan what do we do with skinks? Um Just increase the points. Um, look going back to the sort of comments that you had at the earlier Um start of the show Look, we normally look at an army and go well, what's the issue? Normally the issue you can point to is a particular unit or combination which is under pointed so you fix your points or You've got a particular Unit which just needs a warscole rewrite and gets a warscole rewrite Um, or you have a particular sub faction which is head and shoulders above the rest and forces you in a particular way and Gives you far too much benefits. Um In seraphon, we have a number of strong subset factions. We've got a number of strong units and we've got a number of strong combos Um, so you can't go and just whack one thing over the head Um, and it isn't I don't think a book where you go through This one particular thing is so egregious that we've got to just completely rewrite it and start again. We're not there It's just you've got too much Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it is just it is Go ahead tom. What are you saying? I say it's too well written Yeah Yeah, the book is but it's but it's but it's too well written at one particular end right like the um You got I've I still have a soft spot for the silver neth book in terms of Internal options and things that he's trying to do but it's at the complete opposite end of the spectrum in terms of the benchmark that it is being um written against A level that it achieves in any of its options is just at the complete wrong end of the army spectrum So in terms of the what you do about this as you say Vince, it's just incremental increases across everything um, that is skink and skink adjacent largely um In order to make people to have options or force people to make um compromises in terms of the particular list builds Yeah I think that's exactly right And the thing is that this The armies for me that have always dominated well in age of sigma are the ones which have powerful battle line Right. It's the ones where your your battle line tags your your starting blocks for the army Are just so good and then they take baths well and you go from there any army where you've Put your battle line in but they're not really key to your game plan other than bodies to sit on an objective And all your power comes from elsewhere They're just never going to achieve the same level of performance and army with strong battle line Yeah, and I mean, you know look These are really really efficient effective quality battle line It's so funny because like if you look at their stats Just the raw Stat of it all. All right. If you go pulled the worst roll You'd be like Oh Well, of course, this is a 60 point unit. Look at this thing. It's got one wound and like a six up save Right and an eight inch move and a five bravery This thing's terrible It's ranged attack hits on like fives and fives and it's you know, melee attack is like All the same thing, right if you take the the good range weapon Um, any other way shield and you're like Geez these guys are bad and then you start to look and you start to stack and stack and stack And stack and you stock and block and all day there Right and all of a sudden, yeah I mean even just with a single buff the fact that these guys could be teleported And can be given a an ability to You know shoot off and trigger sixes on the hit Right, so you make 40 attacks So on average you get like seven or eight mortals in there. Not bad Not bad Right, but the fact that that's just sort of your starting gambit Right never mind what you're doing in like Uh Never mind what you're doing in like fangs of sotek or whatever, right? Yeah The every single list that you see in fangs with large bodies of skinks have an accompanying skink priests and star priests, right? They've always got those those accompanying heroes So either you increase those so you you're disincentivised for taking both and so you can only take one of those two Um, or you change the value of their Free abilities so the ones which aren't costing you a command point the the sort of generic abilities which allow you to um Do unmodified wounds on a six if you've got a star priest, etc Sure. Um, so you change that to a dice roll or something which makes them less reliable Yep. Yeah, it is the wound roll. Uh, so yes, which is good, but yes, it is still It's often still the point is that you're often combining it with like hitting somebody and then out of phase and then running away or something like that, right? or your Faced with a three-plus ability to run and shoot in charge, right exactly. Yep, exactly Um, so that's where you're sort of getting all your value back, right? And the fact that again, what are these units costing you? You know, what if what is a unit of 40 of these costing you? Bargain basically points 240 points, right? So it's just it's so insane how cheap that is that's bonkers cheap For just that many bodies, right? Never mind the fact it's just 40 bodies, which quantity has a quality all its own Again, the fact that it can be made to run and shoot that you can just drop it around the board often if you're in starborn that you can Uh, get a bunch of mortal wound shots out of it, right? It's pretty good. It's pretty good. It can do a lot of work So, um So, uh Cool beans What else do we want to cover with these guys gentlemen? Why we we talked about how we fix them and I ultimately agree Like most stuff across the board should be this is one of those rare instances where the book is actually As it stands right now relatively well internal balanced Right like once the sallies came up But it's poorly externally balanced So we just need to like make sure that the rising tide lick continues to lift all boats And like for the most part just bring up like skinks up, you know 10 20 points or something like that or whatever um The uh And they definitely don't need to hoard discount crazy horse. You're out of your mind So biased you're like living in the in the me and silanesh world. I get it. I understand when you're in too deep, man It's all right. I love you. Yeah, uh But Yeah, um, but yeah stuff across the board, especially on all these these sort of Relatively equally valuable hammers and things like that all coming up like 10 to 20 points. It feels like it solves the Yeah, the other thing to recognize would be the So bound endless spells. I like the idea of the mechanic. It's a way of recognizing Magical dominance that no other army has um, it's cool that they play around with some new ideas, but for some of them, it's just 10 points to pay for the bound element is just far too cheap so You don't want to take these things completely out of the game like so you're not gonna You're probably not going to increase bale wind vortex on its own the non bound version because other armies need it and 40 points and Etc, but things like bound geminids Is the other one that you just see all the time But is it 70 points geminid bound geminids is awesome They're doing way more expensive like geminids geminids without the Uh, without the chance to kick back in your face is like that's insane to me that that's the difference there Obviously, that is a huge deal, right? Um utility on the same the utilities madness It's it's a completely different spell when it can't come back and zap you, right? The whole point of these endless spells was the the dynamic at the start of the turn Giving you turn choice and um the risk reward balance, right? Yeah, I mean This may be strong, but like even Even talking about something like the symbols like doubling The cost of those endless spells that may seem completely over the top, but it's really not Because it really like Obviously, I'm not espousing that all been double But when you begin to talk about the the the difference in function of how these uh predatory endless spells work Yeah, specifically. Obviously we're talking about the predatory ones. Yes, right like we should really really really we have significant Point jumps when you have something like that Yeah, I agree. When you're removing the entire downside that makes it reasonable to use That's not a 10 point change. I mean, that's Bisonkers that that was ever on the table to me like that's so nuts um perfect on that 60 points um Bound burning head so you can just pluck it right now near where you need the re-roll right So you always are getting your re-roll ones to hit anytime you want because it's just there where you want it Yeah, you can never be moved by your opponent Right, you can just choose to move it where it needs to be, right? Yeah um, I mean It's just obvious that they're all here's what I'll say Let's do a thought experiment here on bound spells It's in the future. We're in a os 3.0. Maybe that's next year. Maybe that's the year after I don't care Okay, there's a new seraphon book coming Okay again, this is Indeterminate point in the future right Okay So there's a new seraphon book coming. What are your odds bound spells are in that book? Because I'm going to say 80 20 they ain't in that book When when have gw backed away from A rules mechanic, which they thought was tied to the identity of the army all the time Many times hundreds of times. Okay. I am obviously blanking on newborn sleep. Um So other than like the ones which are tied to core rules of the game where we've had changes to the core rules of the game In terms of summoning or otherwise. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yes I mean, if you're saying like, okay Here's a thing that a core part of an army has and then in a new book. They got rid of it. Is that what you mean? Right. Yeah, like Because you could take the same if you look at deepkin deepkin adieu for A book to bring them up into The modern rules of the game Would we lose forgotten nightmares on deepkin or lose the tide? I think that is endemic of their army because I but I also don't think that's the same kind of thing Right. The trick with the bound spells is how long did those particular endless spells stay in print? Bowen vortex for instance Yeah, exactly like let's say it's let's say this new seraphon book I'm talking about is four to five years from now are all of those endless spells still in print I don't know either way. I don't think that they would like They they it feels like the kind of tacked-on mechanic That was never there before Doesn't need to be there in the future and they just go Yeah, nah It's like just get rid of that throw that one out, you know, I mean like it's not blood tithe Or fake dice Right, it's not that Okay, right Like with seraphon themselves it used to be that they could all teleport That was part of the army And then they were like no no only these guys teleport these guys don't anymore So like they're so they've shown they're willing to take another bite at this apple And like it used to be well, you could teleport twice. No, no, no these guys teleport once right or whatever So my point is yes. They they seem like they're they're willing to to to be Dynamic with it. I just it feels Absolutely insane to me that in an army of this size They felt the need to go let's make a second version of every endless spell for this army Like they want to be the magic dominant army. You got it You already got it. You're like you got a bunch of casters running around a plus three and plus four That's like the gosh level casting. What's your complaint here? You're all super casters. Congratulations. You did it Yay Um Yeah, it's just not part of the identity of the army. I guess is what I would say, right Mm-hmm personal take uh all right, so Um, so we talked skinks. I was trying to cover all of my all of my various and sundry topics here Uh, do salamanders still need a little bit more of a points jump? Are they? They're not getting spammed This is true in a lot of lists. They've fallen out. You sometimes see them as like three You don't really see them as much anymore You'd normally see one unit of three, right? So there's no in in half or more of the list. There's one unit of three And then only in rare lists. Do you see a second unit of three? A unit of two added on Right. Yep. I I my feeling is if anything like Maybe another 10 points. I'd like to see him go up. I think that feels right to me Um I think if I had a crazy Crazy horse going for the full 140 he's he's back and hard on this one. I'll tell you what In his mind croak is fine, but these salamanders they got to go way up. That's fine. Everybody's got their take on it 80 to 140 would be probably one of the largest percentage points increases of any unit in the game ever Yeah I think they'll go up another 10 which would which that I mean they already had a huge point jump last book And you know, this is one of the things they talk about That like if they horribly miss point something Even if they generally know the right points They won't do it in one thing So like they release a book. They've got the summer thing. They know this unit needs to come up like 100 points Or come down 100 points They generally even if they know that they'll generally avoid doing it all at once Because they feel like it people People react negatively To that to that kind of change management of having too big of a swing Right, so they'll like increment it over a couple steps. It's the firm and firman lord thing, right? Yep. Yeah, exactly. Keep moving just Just keep just keep moving it in the direction it needs to go. Yeah, just scoot. Just scoot scoot them up Scoot them up. Yeah To go back to your your scaven analogy the The thing to avoid is the not addressing the sort of have-nots in the book, right? Do we think there are do we think there are strong have-nots in the book which need Further love so the things you don't see saw us saw us guard Any of the saw was Foot heroes pretty much Other than you know the actualist guy for for reasons completely unrelated to his existence. Yes The stick he's carrying around is what's valuable. Yes. Yeah, no one cares about the source that it's attached to And Ripperdactyls You don't see Yeah, so I I definitely have a strong feeling on this one because I really do feel like sort like I said earlier I I run up when I run this army. I do run sources I mean Tom will tell you he he played against my he was up here and he played against my My seraphon bunch times. I generally always have huge source blocks on the table because I think source are cool um and You know, I don't know what the change is For source like they do have a decent dish amount of potential synergy In the army. It's not like you can't get them buffed up and really kicking um So, you know, it's not like they're Bad in any way. I mean between them giving themselves extra attacks and then the jaws and coalesce getting extra attacks and uh You know the the buffs that are available for them where they can start Double tapping or various things like that. You know, they can get there um I I don't think I'd want to give all the regular little sorus to wounds because then you'd make them such smaller units Right like they would just get so tiny um Yeah, I don't know. Maybe if I was if I was going to give the regular sorus anything maybe like Their shields or their scaly hides or something um Give them like a six up feel no pain like kind of built in on the sorus Or something like that where they just have it all the time So there's somewhat mortal wound resistant or whatever, right? I mean The other sorus heroes, I don't even know man. I don't know what you do with a lot of these guys They're just they're just bad. Several of them are just bad combat heroes. You're gonna take a couple if you want to like you know buff your sorus if you're deciding to play the the The underwhelming part of this army, right? As I do Um, I think by the by if you moved everything else up in points besides these guys Uh, like if sorus stayed where they are and everything else came up 10 20 points or a lot of other stuff came up Maybe you'd have a different story here right, so The scar vet on karnasaur and uh And his and his buddy like the old blood on karnasaur Need to have their like if I had a could wave a magic wand Their profiles would get very much changed their profiles are way too weak So those combat sort of mid level combat heroes are just a sort of blind spot in so many books and Sorus warriors just fall afoul of the 32 male infantry um, sort of mid level infantry problem and just Why would you take 40 source warriors of 320 points against 40 skinks at 240 points? Which gives you so much more in so many ways, right? um Yes, I I agree. Caleb showing up defending the scar vet on karno at 210. Yeah, I don't think he's uh, I don't think he's terrible. I'm just saying like he does not have enough sort of rend or damage He needs a he needs a little more a little more oomph In there. I do like all the extra attacks you can get but I he needs some more oomph um, just a little bit um Because it's a dude on a t-rex man. They should be cool Like come on Dude on t-rex should be awesome. Yeah, exactly it it is uh This guy always lets me down and and every like I run this dude all the time because I think it's like the coolest model They made but this dude like lets me down so consistently I will agree with Caleb that he says like they have to have buffs. This is true This is absolutely true Okay Uh, let's see, but this dude is just I don't know Yeah, if you ever had one of those units in your army that no matter what you do No matter how you roll no matter what game you're playing He always lets you down like it's always the one that you're like Here we go. And okay, all he's got to do is do two wounds All right, that's all misses. Okay the next profile All right one hit and and no wound. Okay. All right. Well, never mind. That's this guy every time Dude lock it. Yeah, sure. Okay All right Is there anything we haven't touched on what are we we've talked about what we want to see Is there What do we expect to see let's close out on this? Oh, you mentioned other like weak units Croxagore crater whatever Right completely forgot my existence. Yeah, exactly. That's the problem Now if we get a new plastic one in the underworld's warband or something Right, then that would be super cool. They're so under uninteresting. It's because this is a synergy army and they like no synergy so And they have the standard elite model problem Right like all super like all quasi I don't even know what to call them. It sounds like the wrong word, but they're they're elitish Yeah, well, they're they're not trying to fill the curnoth hunter. All right, they don't have a curnoth hunter as well Yep, so definitely them like I don't they're they're sort of this legacy piece of tech That have just kind of stuck around that people feel like they have to put them in there and Okay, like they're ugly models They need a new model. They could be a cool idea It's a neat idea I used to love the old hunting packs back in the day when you could mix like Croxagore in with Skinks and have them swinging over the top and stuff. I think over the top. It's an awesome dynamic Yeah, it was a super cool little little combo there That was fun All right So going back to your your question was the what do we actually expect? Yeah, what do we actually expect to see? Yeah, I think we'll get a number of points increases across some of the skink skink hero and croak related pieces I think some of those will not be enough But we won't see systematic change in the winter FAQ I think GW will rely on the approach that it seems to take with many of the top armies which is going all we care about is the balancing of the game via sort of rock paper scissors at the top end and the evolution of armies and play stars over a sort of six month window so We're never going to try and pull back the top end Harshly we'll just give the top end armies their time in the sun for six months and then Something else will come along and there'll be a new focus and there'll be a new yep the wheel will turn Yes, the what's the what's the line? Uh, they all turn the wheel. I will break the wheel. I mean that didn't end out to her Well, but it's a cool line at the time And like season one or two or whenever she says it. Um, okay So, uh, yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think that what I expect to see is not enough Right, that's how I'd sum it up like not enough Uh, I I I would expect that there will be uh That croak will go up some that Some of the skincare is like you mentioned will go up some probably pretty minor moves I don't know that they'll put the guard or the astrolith up Right. Um, which means I don't think it'll do enough like again The problem with this army is your purchasing power is just too high Right, and that's what I don't want to see broken is like all of that I don't want to see the worst girls broken. I don't want to see synergies broken This army is you're right because it lacks like just an anvil. It's not just like a roll out and And just like hey whatever whatever I can handle everything Right and and take all comers, right. They do have to play a smart game Right, it's not old gristleblower where you're just like, uh Lowles push forward kill you. Oh, you charge me. I kill you. I charge you. I kill you doesn't matter Like we just win every time. It's so weird. It's not that right Um, this takes like you do have to be tactical with it Uh And like set up a lot of careful movement things like that So I don't want to I don't want I'm not trying to diminish anybody where this get this army Um, but I think it'll be weaker than we would probably need to actually see it come in line Not that it takes like Too much Right, I think it'll be let's go. Let's go one to ten scale. Okay. I want to see a five. I think we'll get a three Right, but that's still better than if we had gotten a seven Right. How about that? I'm like just magnitude of adjustments. You understand what I'm saying Does that make sense? Yeah, okay. Yep Dan is like trying to do math right now on what I just said. He's like he's he's that mean Why is three better than seven? It's just a magnitude. It's like a Richter scale of changes. Oh, it's wrong. Sure. Think of it. Sorry I went I should have went vertical think of like the earthquake Richter scale. Okay What we need is like a nice five point. Oh shake up We'll probably get like a three point. Oh seven point. Oh too much too much the army starts crumbling The foundations are falling in Right. Sure. We don't want to go that far. So it's you know, better to be slightly under, right? There we go. Okay. Because it's far easier as you say Change management expectations It's far easier to slowly bite away at the gulf that you have towards Normal or whatever normal is. Yeah Indeed. All right. Well There we go. I think that's good. I think we got all the things I wanted to cover cover Uh, this was fun. I mean, they're a very powerful army. Very fun army I love somebody asked me earlier. Does the thunder lizard monster mash thing trick Trigger your inner timmy. Yes It's super fun to like run around with giant stagodons and and Smash into people and do tons of damage if you have all the buffs going it is so much fun So Yeah, it's pretty great I have one final question If a was three reduce produces a smaller board size. Yeah, aka 40k sure How will that impact serif on do we think? It's interesting On one side like you're saying in its current form like assume the Yeah, so assume no new book No fundamental changes to the rules of the game other than some sort of tweaks and tidy ups around the edges And all you're doing is you're playing on a smaller board size Well logic says that a smaller board is You know helpful to melee smash them armies, right? And also empowers armies that rely on mid board control mid range shooting Or speed to that or alpha bunkering in the middle, right? All of those armies get better on smaller boards Right. Yeah Seraphon is none of those So I have not named any of these things Uh, so I mean it is challenging it diminishes like the value of teleports Because it becomes a lot easier to zone them out Yeah far less room to put your nine and get your nine inches away Like it's crazy how much square sort of space that actually takes off when you just shave The board like that it is quite a bit smaller Um So I think it's a net negative to them But I don't know that it's like oh well, you know Now they're now they're sunken. I can't win Right. My answer is it's probably like a 1% net negative to them overall like at the competitive meta level Yeah, opponents are gonna have nowhere to hide from croak bomb, right? Because that's the flip side of it, right? Yeah, it's just like boom boom boom There it is Eat it. So, you know, there you go Uh, okay, cool. Very good. Tom any final thoughts? No, I think we've hit most of it. All right Uh, well wonderful. Well, there you go if we had anything It uh that we missed Put that down in the comments. Uh, as always if you've got units you didn't think we touched on or gave enough love on If you think croak should be Uh, 250 points instead of his current that he should go down 70 points drop that down in the comments Uh, give it a like if you like this subscribe if you haven't already we certainly appreciate you watching everybody Uh, as always very much appreciated and we'll see you next wednesday