 Hello, welcome to the Donahue Group. Glad you could join us for this wonderful half hour of conversation. Political intelligence and profound thought on the part of our panelists. We're gonna start with the guy who's black here. That's okay, I mean, we have the other panelists today. Excellent. Chibi Hoffa is behind Tom Pineski's chair, and so he's gonna pop out at some point. Ken Risto, director of the Social Studies World at the Chihuahua Area School District. I just got a pay increase. Tom Pineski, math professor at UW-Chaboygan, Cal Potter, former state senator, as we introduced him in those tender 1980 years. I'm Mary Lynn Donahue, glad you could join us. We're talking about state issues and we've got a lot to talk about. Why don't we even just start with the state of the state address. Governor Doyle was on TV for 51 minutes, I believe, was the length of the speech. Things don't look that good, I think is a fair statement from an economic perspective. Well, I don't think we can say Wisconsin's a basket case, but I think Wisconsin is reflecting what's happening in this country. Congress is ready to pass a major rebate system for people getting on what, $600 average or something like that return. Too bad Lee Sherman-Dreyfus has died recently. He could give them some advice about the system. The advice, that's how to do it, that's right. How to get the checks out quickly. But the nation, and in today's paper that I read, one of the biggest downturns in many decades in new housing construction. So the economy is slowing very rapidly. And I think the governor is saying that if things continue, we will have a 300 to $400 million deficit at the end of the budget period and that we need to now put a hiring freeze on as well as stop out of state travel and many things that are controllable now to be preemptive so that maybe we don't have that $400 million deficit at the end of the budget period. Well, he's proposed a couple of tax credits or tax plans to encourage startup businesses that deferring capital gains taxes. If you do X percentage of research and development as a part of your business, you get other tax breaks and so forth. Causing some rift with the Democrats, interestingly enough, embraced by the Republicans because Republicans- They always love tax breaks. They like tax cuts. Because businesses create revenue and that's where Doyle gets the money. Well, then of course the labor in the business creates the revenue, but in any event- Well, the labor is only needed by the businesses, right? The businesses need the labor. Well, okay, it's hand in glove. That's what Karl Marx said at least. I don't know, could be wrong, could be wrong. Well, I'm hopeful that the governor- You're hopeful quoting Karl Marx? Not that comfortable, no. I'd have to say, not that comfortable at all. That's the first for the show. I'm hopeful that this is targeted. There's an interesting article in this week's Newsweek about how starting with the Reagan era and so on, we cut taxes on investment and capital gains and the estate tax was cut, the new income tax brackets were cut. And for a period of years, about 80% of the money gained by the wealthy in this country were indeed invested in this country. And what they're seeing now is that there's greater investment in China and in India and they're saying, is it the policy of this country to continue to give tax breaks to the monied without some expectation that they take the gains that they're given and reinvest in this country and not overseas? And I think the governor- And I think that's what Doyle's point is. Yeah, and I think so. So, you know, I think Democrats are, you know, there's a knee-jerk reaction that might be saying, no, we shouldn't do this. But I think there's some expectation that if you and I are gonna pay our taxes diligently, because we don't have any way of avoiding it, people who we gift will at least create jobs and create business in this state. And I think that's a reasonable exchange. I do too. I mean, it sounded interesting to me and where it goes and how it plays out, I don't know, because I think long-term Wisconsin, and we can't really, don't have enough time to get into it in any depth in the show, but I think long-term Wisconsin, just given it's where it's at and the age of its population and so forth has some very significant long-term financial issues. You know, as an aside, this is not addressing the issues that are facing us. The Republicans held out long past the budget deadline. We want a no tax increase. No, yeah, no tax, no budget increase, you know, held out in some cases, they were ridiculed. And if it were just glided through and we had this big spending package, we'll be in worse shape than we are projected to be in. So I would say in retrospect, kudos to the Republicans for holding out. We're in bad, we're not in the best shape, but we could have been in a lot worse shape if we let those spending bills go through, especially on the healthcare side. Well, and as we know, so many of those bills as they were proposed were to placate the funding sources that were giving money to each side during the whole budget process. I guess I would take a little umbridge with your characterization of that process, but nonetheless, it is nice to have, well, this leads into another issue because it's nice to have balanced houses because the mischief, I think, is cut down a little bit if one party doesn't control the entire table. Interesting proposals coming out of the Assembly and Senate that have no realistic chance of passing. And for example, the Republicans are proposing to end voter registration on election day. Now about 20% of our voters register on election day. And this is a proposal that has been pushed in the Assembly that's going nowhere in the Senate. The Democrats on the other hand in the Senate are pushing for an increase in the minimum wage. That's going nowhere in the Assembly, I don't think. So it's interesting to see how any number of bills are getting introduced now. Just, I hate to say for the fund-election. For the fall election, no, it's the fall election. Republicans have, on a national level and a state level, have used this bugaboo of voter fraud. It's a fraud issue. There is no voter fraud. What do they have in Milwaukee? Total of a couple of felons that voted. And my opinion is that persons rehabilitated themselves enough and they're gonna go out and vote and they have a felony conviction. God bless them, I'm glad they're rehabilitated. They should be able to vote. But this bugaboo that we need to have, all kinds of pictures and ID and do away with voter registration onsite is a bunch of baloney. And all it is is throwing a bone in the corner and having everybody go over there so that we don't have to address healthcare or education or the environment and all the substantive issues that this government and this society ought to address. The Republican Party who pursues this ought to be ashamed of themselves. This is a non-issue. They're gonna throw it. All right. They're gonna throw it. They're gonna throw it. Okay, you got me right there. Cal's right there. We're gonna have to separate you too. I mean, it's- There's been a pile of studies. Well, let's debate tax policy. That's substantive. Yeah, okay. There've been a pile of pile and pile of studies that look at this whole idea of fake inappropriate voters coming into the voting place and casting ballots with it. And all of them speak with one voice. It just isn't a problem. It's a solution in search of a problem. There are problems with updating voter registration lists and keeping dead people off the rolls and all those sorts of things, but none of these proposals about voter idea are gonna solve those types of issues. And the fact of the matter is most of that isn't a result of fraud anymore than it is fact you've got local government officials in small towns trying to deal with unmanageable lists changing constantly. And, you know, Wisconsin just doesn't have a voter fraud problem. It's just an attempt to try to reduce the turnout of people who want to vote can't vote. Now, the Supreme Court's gonna weigh in on this. We'll see where they are on this topic. Yeah, the Supreme Court's gonna weigh in on it. Whether states can actually even begin to require this to begin with. It'll be interesting to see where the court comes down. Well, I wouldn't doubt the court's gonna say that, that it's not unreasonable. But why do it if there's not a lot of fraud? Why make an old person go around searching for place to have a picture taken? They have some type of card in order to prove that they can vote. I think you're right. I think the court's gonna basically say this is a political issue and let's have at it in the state legislatures, unlike Florida when they were trying to resolve their electoral problems back in 2000. In the court didn't care about that. You know, you've indicated the problems of keeping dead people off the list and updating because of migration back. People moving. This is a positive way to do that. You go in and get a voter ID card and it's a way of, you know, cleaning up, cleaning up the list. Really cutting down participation, even more than we do. People can get out, they can have a cousin come over, somebody come over, even a Democrat that come over and take them to a vote. Well, and that's been my proposal because it's pretty clear that the restricting voting access is clearly a way to make sure poor people don't vote. That's not, they're not. Oh, that's, I mean, it's so obvious. But in any event, if in fact it does happen, I think it's incumbent on the Democrats to use it as an organizing tool because we can't get people, we can't get people to vote. People are so distraught with the political system and have so little faith in it. But to use it as an organizing tool, I think has some, I mean, should this ever come about? Who's the alderman in the Milwaukee district that's under fire? McGee. McGee, yeah. I'll give you a five, you know, we got five bucks to go down and vote today. I'm up for a reelection. Yeah. Take them down, you have a driver, five bucks, vote for McGee. You got, you know, have lunch today. No, I'm talking about genuine organizing, saying, you know, poor people, the reason that you don't get anything you want is because you never organize and you don't vote. And so when you don't come to the table, you're not gonna get any of the scraps. And so just in terms of figuring out, because it clearly is an assault on people who, it makes it harder for people to vote. And that's the point of it. I mean, there's no other point because I don't think there really is a problem. I, after the vast amount of resources that went into exploring fraud in 2004, it basically, they couldn't really come up with it. What do you have to have when you go vote? Well, in my case, I just walk into my voting poll and they say, well, you're BD and Wayne's son and I don't need to produce any kind of idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they allow you to vote. But the fact is, Even though you live in some other state, you're on the list. No, you're on the list. I mean, if there's any kind of a question, I mean, first of all, any kind of idea is fine, but you can turn in. See, you need an ID, right? No, no, no, you can turn it, you could just give them a telephone bill or any place that shows your name. If you had an ID, that's a telephone bill. Well, it's not an ID in the sense that it doesn't require a photograph or any kind of a card. As long as you had a utility bill of any kind, you could walk in, present, show your place of residence, and then if there was a question, by the way, you actually have a provisional ballot and then you are checked out later and then comes out to show something anyway. But this presumes you can register on election day. Well, I think it's a lot easier for a person with limited means to get a bill sent to them and use that bill as proof, as opposed to saying you have to go to a government agency, even if it's free, you still need a birth certificate or a social security card or something that people in other walks of life don't necessarily have and they have to produce and it costs them to get that thing. And going to the department, the division of motor vehicles, just to wait in line for an ID card, will hardly take you more than two or three hours. So, in any event. Another myth, depending if I, I've been actually the voter, I've been there and it's actually been really pretty manageable lately. I've been there. But you still have to get there. You still have to get there. Well, it's not been manageable with my kids, but there we go. And take part of your day and there are lots of folks who in studies show that if they're forced to spend $15 on getting a copy of their birth certificate, the local government agency, as opposed to paying their food bills and paying the heat bill, they're not gonna do it. The history is full of impediments to keep people in their place and it's poll taxes. There were literacy tests. And if you look until the 1960s, black people didn't vote in the South. It was a white dominated government. And if it wouldn't have been for the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act under the Kennedy Johnson years, black people still wouldn't be have the rights that they deserve. And we don't, we shouldn't pick on the poor. We shouldn't pick on black people. We shouldn't pick on anybody. We do. We put these dog on hurdles in their way from participating in their own government. And it shouldn't happen. That's not a hurdle. Well, did they put something in the water? It's not a hurdle. He did. He did. You showed this. He's not for reelection. He's not for reelection. He's not for reelection. Cal Potter's running for reelection. He's not for reelection. No, I am, he's fit and he's rested. I am just so ticked off at these people who come up with these issues that are not issues. When you got 47 million people who don't have health insurance, you've got people who've been kicked out of their house. You've got people that have all kinds of needs and nobody is addressing them. And they're sitting there talking about whether somebody can go to the poll and register. I mean, get a life politician. You know, that's my edit. Yeah. Well, you know, Joe Liebham had a, you know, all our legislators have their columns in the beacon and so forth. And the title on Senator Liebham's one was we don't deserve our pay raise. And you know, I don't agree with Joe very often, but I kind of had to agree with him on that. And let me just share with you what I find to be remarkable results. And we've talked about polls and people being disillusioned with their state government. This was done by the Wisconsin Policy Research Institute, pretty well respected in December. Interestingly enough, only 12% of those polled believe that voters have the power to determine what the legislature does. 82% thought it's the lobbying groups that decide what the legislature does, which I thought was pretty interesting. And the number of Wisconsin residents who consider themselves independents as opposed to Democrats or Republicans has increased dramatically up to 40%. It's just this huge leap in the last three or four years. And both the Democrats and the Republicans have gone down. And so I think, I mean, I do think that we have a little crisis with our legislature and our government as a whole and as that cynicism. And I mean, we've talked about this over and over again, the role of money and so forth, but I think those are interesting statistics. And I wonder, we just talked briefly about our February 19th primary. You can register at the polls, at least for now. So please, if you haven't registered and you would like to, all you have to do is bring your library card with you or that register beforehand. And your electrical bill, your telephone bill. You can just walk in and vote, and I don't want you to register at the polls. The polls take you to be forever. You can register beforehand too, but at least for now it's a pretty easy process. I beg your pardon. How will that, and of course, Wisconsin has an open primary, how will the candidates fare? Let's just do a little prognostication just for the fun of it and to get Cal reattached to the planet. Well, first of all, at least on the Democratic side, and I don't know the Republican side, because it's an open primary, it's a bit of a beauty contest in the sense that, correct me if I'm wrong, and I could be wrong, but if I recall, because it's open, which means anybody can vote for anybody's candidates across party lines, the delegates aren't being chosen through this primary. Is that, aren't those settled by caucuses that go on across the various parties? It takes the delegates, but they do go by the winner. Well, they do know. Okay, okay. Who wins the primary? Is it 100%? Is it 100%? I think the winners take all. Winner take all, really. Yeah, okay, all right. I didn't know that. But who the delegates are is still by the party. That's why in Nevada, for example, Hillary got less in delegates, even though she was ahead of Obama in the popular vote, because I think the governor and the congressional delegation in the party, state party chair, yeah, those superdelegates are automatically gone and go, and if they've already committed themselves to Hillary, for example, she's got the itch in that sense. Okay. But I think it's still, well, who knows, because we have to kind of see how the dust settles after the super Tuesday elections, about a week or so, or 10 days earlier, whatever it is. You might even have candidates already set. I mean, I don't know how it's gonna play out, but if it's still competitive, I think it'll be competitive both in the Republican side and the Democratic side, you're not gonna see the mischief that sometimes goes on when people can cross party lines because your vote's gonna matter whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. It'll be interesting to see how the 40% of the Wisconsinites actually vote, because so far in the primaries, independents have gone over and voted on the Democratic side for Democratic candidates more than Republicans. And an interesting split, Governor Doyle is supporting Obama and Lieutenant Governor Lawton is supporting Senator Clinton. And Feingold, is he supporting anybody? No, typically, there was a long article in the Senate, or in the Journal Sentinel this Sunday about typically most senators are gonna keep their dog out of the fight until things have settled down because it just gets embarrassing. Yeah, you've got two senators running against each other. Right. They've got excited. Some of them, like Kerry and some people have come out early in the Dorrist and imagine there's probably friendships and who knows what, who's, Oxpah's been Gordon, why they pick who. I'll just be, I mean, Obama, as I understand, I mean, we've seen no political activity here. I haven't, I don't know any local presidential work, but Obama has been in Wisconsin at least. Clinton has not at all, not Edwards. It's just way too early. Yeah, it's just way too early. I mean, you look at the number of primaries that are gonna take place on Super Tuesday and the resources you have to bring to bear in that fight, you don't have time for Wisconsin. After that, the dust settles and you see where your candidates, where your delegate count is, then you strategically start looking at where you're gonna put your money in the next set if it's relevant. Any prognostications as between? I think Hillary has still got the front running status, but I don't think it's gonna be anywhere, like it was six months ago when everybody said, well, Hillary's gonna run away with this thing. I think Obama's gonna win some primaries and I think Hillary's gonna win some and it's gonna come down to being closer than people thought. I think she still has the edge because he's still rather unknown. He's young. I think the Clintons have been in the political limelight for quite a few years. Right, all right. So you think Clinton narrow? What do you think? Oh, I mean, if I voted the Democrat. I know you're not gonna vote for a Democrat, Tom. If I voted in the Democratic primary, I'd vote for Obama. So if I voted in the Republican primary, I'll probably, I don't know, I wanna vote for Giuliani, so. But I don't know where he's gonna be after Florida. Roadkill. It's okay, maybe, maybe not. I know. All right. I mean, for what it would be, not a commentary on him necessarily. I'm not saying as a condit, this is ridiculous, I think. Yeah, I'm just asking. Yeah, I picked the two front runners. All right, so we have one Clinton, one Obama. Ken? Are you asking me? Who's gonna win? Who's gonna win at the end? Not who you're gonna vote for. In Wisconsin, or are we at the end? In Wisconsin. On Wisconsin, I think. February 19th. I think you'll have, oh, I think you'll have Clinton on the Democratic side, and I think you'll have McCain on the Republican side. Okay, well, interesting. All right. I think McCain is. So we've got three Clinton and one Obama. And those are gonna be your November picks right away. You want my picks for November? Yeah. You should have a pool. Yeah. Who would have thought that McCain would make this come back? I mean, it's just you're never out until you're really out. Well, I think the other two have poisoned their own situation. Huckabee has become so religious. I mean, wanting constitutional amendments and certain items. You know, most people don't want to wear their religion in their sleeve. And they don't want the president to do that either. They have their religion, but they don't want the president being the preacher in the White House. Right. And I think he's being perceived that way. He's got the 33 million evangelicals, maybe panting, because he's their boy. But I think the general populace, he's not the person. And I think Romney has jumped all over the, every issue he's been on both sides. And I think people are simply saying, is this guy a good looking movie star type? And I think McCain is the guy who's, even though he may be- He always was a straight talker. Yeah, he's a straight talker. He's a straight shooter. He's a veteran. He's supporting the war. He's at least rock solid. You may not agree with him, but people are perceiving him as somewhat of a good guy to go with. So, I beg your pardon. So, we've got McCain winning in the Wisconsin primary. Not who you're voting for, just who you think is gonna win. Yeah. Okay, all right. Oh, looking at our Republican friend over here. Cause I was gonna- I'll pick Romney. All right, because I was gonna suggest that the loser, you know, buy drinks after the taping. That's fine. That's nice drink. That's why I was gonna come at you. A little Irish whiskey. I just don't know the real makeup of the Republican party in Wisconsin. I mean, I think that Romney would appeal to the business side of the Republican party, the business wing, the fiscal side, if you will. I just don't know if the evangelical Christian conservative base of the Wisconsin party is really to push a lever for a Mormon. What about, I mean, Doyle endorses Obama? That's like a very vague- I'm pretty surprised. I was pretty surprised. You got the Milwaukee area. They're gonna vote for Obama. Doyle jumped right after Iowa. Madison, you hope all those young liberal- Oh, I think it's gonna be real close. ...thinkers, they're gonna vote for Obama? Where's Clinton come in that she should fall on her face? Yeah. But if you think about that, if you think where the Democratic votes come from, Madison is huge Democrat, and they got a lot of young school kids there. Yeah, although I think- I think you're right, Tom, that I think it's gonna be really close in Wisconsin, and Clinton could very well, Senator Clinton could very well not win that primary, depending on what's going- You know, depending on the balance and the buzz and everything else that comes out of there, it's really kind of a- It's hard to say. ...dark thing. And I know in talking to some young, some of my former students who are politically active on the Democratic side, they just can't stomach her. They just can't. And they're working really hard for Obama, so I think it'll be a real interesting issue later on when you get to convention time, that they, how they, those, you do the obligatory standard together as a united party at the end of the convention, how those two are gonna stand on a stage together, whether it works with their way. They'd be a dynamic tool. Yeah. A dual, really. Well, but yeah, but see, I think there again, how does Clinton make the case that he could be vice president? I mean, she's been pounding him up, about his lack of experience, so he's not, or he's a hard beat away from the president. He's a hard beat away from the president. Well, I mean, that kind of thing always goes on and they always kiss and make up and they always come out, not always, but more often than not, come out as a united front. But if you're a Republican, you start writing the tapes of Senator Clinton saying this guy is not ready to sit in the Oval Office the first day. Well, what happens when something happens to you? I mean, not that old vice presidents were ready to take the office, but you can't make the case that you're inexperienced. The kid's a kid. Yeah, I think that actually the viciousness was fairly late in starting among the Democrats. I think it just really got going, but we were just commenting on the Daily Show last night. There are all these things about the candidates imploding and losing control, and they played the actual clips. Not so. I mean, they're just sort of very, you know, Clinton saying, I guess I don't understand what you're saying or Romney's saying. Well, you're entitled to your opinion. This is, you know, volcanoes erupting and all sorts of funny things. So we really do have a media creating as far as I'm concerned, a whole separate reality. Whereas here on the Donahue Show, it's like real. Yeah, we don't raise our voice. We just, we just, it's real. We try to get angry. What was the goldwater line? The defense of liberty, the extremism. It's this guy. Exactly. I'm with Kalamaz. Well, it'll be interesting, but remember, vote on February 19th. Right now, you can register at the polls and there's really no excuse. And it's a wonderful thing to vote. I, I'm into it. I'm sorry. Oh, I think it's great. I always like presidential primaries. They're fun. And, you know, we just have a couple minutes left, but let's talk on April 1st. The election after that will be when we elect our Supreme Court Justice. That race has not yet heated up, but it's certainly very, very late. There's a Pellet Court race. And the appellate court here in district two, the judge who was appointed, Judge Lisa Neubauer, is running against Bill. I know. Gleisner. Gleisner, yep. And two good people from what I understand. And so that'll be interesting. But also the overwhelmingly vote has been taken to send the Frankenstein veto to referendum and whether that should be outlawed. We used to talk about the Vanna White veto. Now we're talking about the Frankenstein veto. Cal and I, as old Democrats want to say, it was Tommy Thompson who perfected, who perfected the Vanna White veto. And I mean. 18 go home. Well, I just love it when, when current legislators are so appalled at what Governor Doyle is doing. I just want to say just a little historical perspective. Good battering different day. We only have a minute left to, to get rid of the Frankenstein veto. Good. Well, it's, it's, it's long overdue. It started, the veto, line item veto really started to be perfected to some limited degree under Pat Losey. And then it really blossomed under Tommy Chompsons, what, 14, 15 years in office. And Governor Doyle has limited compared to Tommy Thompson authority because of the Vanna White, which meant he can't strike individual letters, but he can strike words and create new sentences and paragraphs and the whole gamut. The, the gubernatorial veto power in the state is much too broad and it ought to be reined in. There's nothing wrong with line item vetoes, but it ought to be, it ought to be hemmed in to something that's less than creative in nature. Wonderful word at the end of our time, but we just want to remind you, when is the primary? February 19th. Thank you. And the general election? April 1st. April 1st, April Fool's Day. April Fool's Day. Thanks for joining us. And we hope you have a pleasant February, particularly as you wait in line to vote.