 Ythafodol o ddylai, dwi'n gweld, maen nhw chi fod yn cyfleidiaeth y dnes, neu yn rhywbeth y ddymian i fynd i lluniau, oedd ddawnaeth 1.1386 yn ddigon a ti gynon, ond fy mlynedd cyflawn agion ddiolch yn wych yn sangl, ac rhyw gyd, iddyn nhw i ddwy i gyd, yn ddigon i'n golygu i ddim yn ddysgu'r lluniau. Yna ddigon i ddysgu'r lluniau. The Motion Minister to the Minutes. I am happy to be here, hot in the heels of the historic environment Scotland-bill debate, given the important role of historic buildings in conservation areas in many of our town centres. There is a huge crossover between the two items and I have no doubt that the new body proposed will be well positioned alongside key partners to help to make the most of the opportunities to promote both. It's already a year since I launched a town centre action plan in i'w lle wnaeth'r cilmarlic, ac diwethaf â gyda'r clyw, oherwydd ein cyfnod yma, ein clyw ymlaen i'w lle, oherwydd ei chrychu'n unig i'w lle arall, a fynd o ddweud i ddefnyddio'r cyfnodau, o'r gofyn, iawn yr ysgol, byddwyr a'r dysgu yn ddydd yn dweud ar y pryd. Mae'n dod i'r cyfnod o bwysigio eu gwybod cywmaint o'r cyfnodau unig i'r cyntaf drafodd yr adwys告訴 o'r centau ysgoloriaeth ar y dda, ac yn fawr, y fawr i'r bethau sylfaen iawn i gyfarfod oedd, wedi'u cyfnodau amfynidol argyndoedd cynnau peirio ond mae'r du dyfodig yn ysgoloriaeth a'n roi ddod, ac mae'n rhan amser, i ni'n rhan o'r ddadig, uymell y cyfnod ac yn ddod, cael ei wneud o ran fod yn y ddefnyddio'i cysylltau hiwg a'r iawn a'r oeddei adroddylliannol. that colleagues and senior officials across Government have been kept informed and fully engaged in the delivery of the action plan. I've met with local authorities, community groups and business representatives and I'm encouraged by what I've seen under way. There is, of course, still much to be done and I'm here today for two reasons—to set out what we've achieved and to take your views on where we need to go next in terms of the on-going action plan delivery. I responded to your call to address the proliferation of payday lending shops in our town centres by hosting a summit in April, which led to the publication of a 12-point plan. Working with industry and local authorities, that includes measures to improve availability of financial education and money advice, as well as test case planning pilots and authorities most impacted by clustering issues. I am also pleased that the competition and markets authority have concluded their investigation into the payday loan market. We welcomed their final report announcing measures that include the introduction of comparison websites and greater transparency on fees and charges. The town centre first principle was agreed by cabinet on 24 June and announced jointly with COSLA on 9 July. It was the main ask from the national review. It calls on central government, local authorities, communities and the wider public sector to put town centres at the heart of proportionate and best value decision making. Agreement to this principle marks a significant shift in public policy and it is further testament to the raised profile of town centres across all sectors. Less high profile but vitally important in practice, the Scottish Public Finance Manual, which guides public bodies on both acquisition and disposal of their assets, was revised, of course. I am grateful to the minister. I think we welcome the town centre first principle. What impact would that have had if it had been in place, though, at the time of the court closure programme? It would certainly have been a consideration in that programme, maybe in a way that town centres were not, because it requires as a matter of policy and guidance the consideration of town centres in any asset and service decision. It will be one of many material considerations that could be taken into account. I understand the member's concerns about those buildings, but there are also opportunities in the on-going use of those buildings for community and other groups going forward that can generate fruitfall. Those policies put in place guidance around the acquisition and disposal of assets, and it makes it an in-principle consideration when making those decisions going forward. Similarly, the equivalent in the NHS will also be updated in due course. As well as those revisions in the new Scottish planning policy that was published in June, we reflect the principle in broadening out of the town centre first approach to plan for a broader range of uses that attract a significant number of people to their towns. In practice, local authorities and public sector bodies are encouraged to demonstrate their commitment to their town centres by acknowledging the principle and applying it when making investment decisions within town centres. Local authorities include Stershares, Shremshares, Clackmannanshire and West Dunbartonshire for different but related reasons. On town centre living, not only with the town centre housing fund, CMPT town centre properties brought back into use in seven local authority areas, significant funding from the affordable housing supply programme is also helping to provide more affordable homes in town centres across Scotland. On 18 November, we will host a one-day Scottish housing event, bringing together over 300 stakeholders to help to share a five-year collaborative housing action plan for Scotland, focusing on the delivery of current housing strategies. As part of that, town centres will be a priority. We are absolutely committed to supporting the right conditions for flourishing businesses and entrepreneurs across Scotland. I am delighted that, last Friday, we published new official statistics that show the recipients of our small business bonus scheme at a record high level, with more than 96,000 properties benefiting. That is an increase of 50 per cent since we introduced the scheme back in 2008. Many thousands of business premises across Scotland's towns are seeing a real enduring benefit provided by the small business bonus scheme. We are also using the levers available to encourage long-term vacant premises back into use. One such example would be the expansion of fresh start relief to apply to pubs, hotels and restaurants from April this year. I think that there are many good points in the first principle and talk about how we develop the town centres. However, the infrastructure itself depends on transport infrastructure and the many diverse issues, particularly around car parking. I know that we have had the bus investment fund, but I just wonder what guidance and work has been done with the local authorities on that. I certainly will return to the subject of transport and investment, but in reviving Scottish planning policy, it makes it perfectly clear that that place-based strategy and accessibility is incredibly important. We will not have a national policy on parking, but parking is a constant issue that comes up that local authorities should most certainly reflect upon when making their decisions about their town centres. In addition to new powers that we have all agreed on to local authorities to carry out enforcement action within town centres in relation to dangerous and defective buildings, something that I work closely with the Labour Party on has also empowered local authorities to tackle such buildings. We want to unlock potential that exists locally, knowing that great things can happen when we empower people to achieve their own goals. The minister would also like to tell us what analysis has been carried out on the impact of the entry property legislation and what pre- and post-analysis has he got in place to show what difference it is going to be making? As it happens, the wholesale review into the changes to empty property rates relief will be undertaken next year. Just today, I asked our advisor Professor Lee Sparks how he felt vacancy rates were within properties and there is a report coming out early December that should inform us on the current and live position. That wider analysis of the impact of those rates relief changes will be fully known in 2015, and we will respond accordingly at that time. Community empowerment, Bill. I am looking forward to progressing through Parliament. I think that we will break down further barriers and help to create the conditions for community-led regeneration in which we support, not least because it will extend the community right to buy to urban as well as the rural areas as well. I think that that could be transformational. As well as that, earlier this year, I launched the Stalled Spaces programme, which unlocks local potential in a temporary and permanent fashion fill empty and stalled spaces with community-led initiatives. I also support the ability and encourage all members to support the ability as proposed in the community empowerment bill to extend new powers to local authorities to create local relief schemes that are right for them in terms of the rates pressure that local businesses face, while it is mindful that a majority of business premises in our town centres benefit from small business bonus, as I have mentioned. With the action plan, place-based reviews and principle in practice, I am convinced that longer-term outlook for our town centres is good and strong. In reviewing MPF-3, I have made connections such as transport and accessibility connections through policy to be considered when planning decisions are made. In that respect, we have also given support to Sustrans and new funding also to ensure that travel networks are supported, including cycling and walking. I heard particular complaints around digital towns and infrastructure. That is why I have extended permitted development to renew the telecom's infrastructure in our town so that it can be part of the digital revolution. We will carry out a specific demonstration project to support digital proactivity in our towns. I have given support just today and announced the extra financial support of £119,000 towards a programme of town centre planning pilots in collaboration with nine planning authorities, as well as expanding on town centre charret so that local people are engaged with solutions going forward. I have charged with Scotland's town partnership with the new resources to be the go-to organisation to bring together external partners, work with others and provide much support to communities across the country. Scotland's town partnership is also responsible for Scotland's town's week, which runs from 17 November until 23 November. I have also announced new funding for business hubs in the community to try to have a cluster approach to support innovation. I will continue my work with the external advisory group because its perspective is invaluable to the Government's decisions going forward. I repeat my message about partnership with all when it comes to town centres, because only by working in partnership will we be able to deliver for towns across Scotland. I look forward to the views of members from across the chamber this afternoon. I now call Gavin Brown to speak to and move amendment 11386.1. Mr Brown, you have seven minutes. Presiding Officer, let me start by moving the amendment in my name and saying that there is nothing in the motion with which we, on this side of the chamber, disagree. The motion is fine as far as it goes. It notes publication of the report, welcomes the engagement, notes the demonstration phase and so on and so forth. We will support the motion this evening at decision time tonight, regardless of the result of the vote on our amendment. We welcome in particular, I think, the announcements about the small business bonus policy that the Conservatives have pushed for many years. I think that there is welcome news on the sheer number of businesses benefiting and the value of that measure to businesses across Scotland. I welcome also the town centre first principle, but in welcoming that principle, it has to be effective on the ground. That was the purpose of my intervention on the minister. It has to be applied on the ground to make any impact. When we debated town centres a year ago, the Government was talking a good game about the town centre first principle, but at the same time, busy closing down courts in high streets across Scotland and busy closing down counters in police stations across Scotland. We felt that there was a contradiction between what the Government was saying at the top level and what was actually happening on the ground. We welcome the commitment and we hope that it will signal a new approach across Scotland to a genuine town centre first principle. We do not disagree with anything in the motion, but I think that there are a number of things not in the motion that we captured in our amendment that I want to focus on and now explore over the course of the rest of my contribution. The yardstick by which the Scottish Government should be judged is the statement that was made by Nicola Sturgeon in July 2012, when the external advisory group was set up to look at town centres. Nicola Sturgeon said that we want to take every measure possible to ensure that our town centres are vibrant places. The Scottish Government says that it wants to take every measure possible, and that is where I think that we need to look a little bit deeper to see if they are actually doing that or is there more that could be done. One of the biggest criticisms that I have had of the Scottish Government is the business rates incentivisation scheme, a policy with which we agree 100 per cent. In fact, Scottish Conservatives would go further than the Scottish Government did in their manifesto for 2012. In theory, it is a great policy that incentivises businesses, incentivises council and leads to greater funds being spent on economic development and obviously town centres. That was a flagship policy in the local government elections in 2012. However, in year 1 of operation, the goalposts were moved very late in the day. The thresholds that councils had been given were increased quite dramatically so that councils did not benefit to the tune of the numbers that they were expecting and indeed merited. For 2013-14, the goalposts were not even put up by the Scottish Government. They did not even give the councils targets or incentives under the scheme. It was simply ignored. We are currently seven months into the financial year of 2014-15, and as far as I am aware—I could stand to be corrected—we do not have thresholds yet for councils for what they are expected to achieve under that scheme. We are about to move into the formal part of the budget process in the early part of next year for 2015-16 and who knows what kind of thresholds will be set there. This is a Government that said that it could set up the entire apparatus of a new state in 18 months. However, as we approach the fourth financial year of the business rates incentivisation scheme, it remains in cold storage. It has not had any impact on the ground, and a year ago, we were highly critical of the Scottish Government for a lack of progress. Twelve months on, it is difficult to see what progress has been made. This could make a genuine difference to councils. The sums involved could be far larger than many of the sums that were announced by the minister in his contribution and indeed in the report. It is something that is good for councils and business, and the funds could flow towards innovation, regeneration to town centres more widely and entrepreneurship. I asked the Government in closing today to give us a full update on that position and to make sure that the scheme actually gets going. The external advisory group, as we know, did not just recommend that the scheme continues, but recommended that the scheme be enhanced. I am sure that it is happy to give it. I wonder if it is so important to have some kind of financial incentive for councils to do the right thing. I agree with you that it is. Why is it therefore not important that the Scottish Government has powers and financial incentives sufficient for the Scottish Government to do the right thing? I am glad that he agrees with me, because it is his party's policy and has been ever since the day that he was elected. I say to him that, in 2012, he might have missed the draft budget that came forward just four or five weeks ago, which had powers being transferred and some of those very incentives to which he is so keen. However, I say in return to the member, if he is so keen on the policy, why has he not put any pressure on his own front bench in relation to that particular policy? Why has he said nothing on that particular policy over the last couple of years, despite apparently being in favour of it? In other areas, I think that some of the general progress has been slow. The document that was produced yesterday had two columns—what action was meant to happen and what has been achieved—but they deleted the column from the initial document that had the timescales for some of the actions to take place. Without comparing the two, some would think that more has been achieved than the Government is letting on. I just give one example here. They talk about energy performance certificates, and they said that they are going to strengthen the guidance to make sure that there is support for commercial premises to comply with the ratings at the point of sale and new lease in January of 2014. That was a short-term six-month target for something to be done about it when it was set a year ago. However, in yesterday's document, a public consultation will be published on energy efficiency before the end of 2014. I pick that out as one example. One of quite a number within the document is that progress has not been made. While the Government has made some progress, while we will support its motion today, there are a number of areas where it needs to do far more, and in particular on the business rates incentivisation scheme. We also welcome the chance to hear the update from the minister on progress made. We are also absolutely clear that we support the principles underpinning the town centre first policy, but the key for us is implementation. There is a role for a critique on the fiscal mechanisms that the Scottish Government has been using thus far, but I would also argue that we need local authorities with more financial tools and more financial capability to make the cultural and infrastructure changes needed. Our local authorities have a key role in civic leadership. Bids have been incredibly important in enabling town centre businesses and retailers to come together, especially in relation to management and marketing, but the civic role of local councils pulling together businesses and local communities to regenerate, revitalise and support town centres to make them places people want to visit is crucial. Over the last two summers, I visited a range of town centres to see at first hand both best practice and hear about the challenges. I have held a series of meetings with key stakeholders and community activists and town centre management specialists to draw on their expertise. There is a lot of best practice and some really good work happening. Glasgow City support for cultural enterprises, the work that the ministers referred to on payday loan shops and controls on gambling shops. There is the work that Renfrew have done in terms of town centre management and public realm investment, Falkirk's business hub and support for training opportunities, but concerns in Lanark, for example, about how we get housing above shops to repopulate our high streets was a key message made in several local authority areas. I was particularly impressed this summer when I visited Dunfermline and looked at their town centre improvements on the high streets, their work on signage and linking into tourism opportunities. What was clear there was that they had made a clear political choice, a leadership decision to bring about that investment, because with 32 towns in Fife, focusing on Dunfermline means that other towns have to wait. That is a challenge that you can see across Scotland. Our big local authorities with many town centres, even though they have some resource in terms of staffing, they do not have the resource in terms of cash. The smaller authorities have neither the staff nor the cash. There is a real challenge there. Alex Rowley will be closing for this debate, but it was really interesting to see the impact of that strategic decision to invest money to prioritise investment had made a real difference. I think that there is a lot more that the Scottish Government can do. The policy has been in place, it has already been exposed that it is not always being implemented by the Scottish Government. In East Kilbride, their major issue was that new NHS investment had missed the opportunity to come to the town centre and had missed the opportunity to bring thousands of trips to the town centre from NHS staff. The issue of CPO orders is still mentioned by authority after authority. It prevents them from getting to grips with the properties that are owned by private landowners who are sitting on properties for years without investment, sometimes because they do not have the investment capital available either. We need to rethink on planning capacity. There is not the scope in most planning authorities and certainly not the financial capacity in authorities to get out and do the big planning projects that we might have seen 10 or 20 years ago. There is a real challenge, because at the moment planning is more regulating, it is more looking at proposals that have come in, but there are many, many town centres where with more scope, more staff resource it would be easier to bring forward the kind of major projects that you can see in Edinburgh and Glasgow where you have transformative investment taking place. That is not available for our out-of-town authorities and it is certainly not available for our smaller authorities. The work of pulling together with housing associations, taking on land assembly, buying up properties and then investing in refurbishing ground flow properties for retail or then looking at compatible uses and particularly housing use in the upper floors, that simply is not possible in the current framework and that is something that the Scottish Government needs to look at. We need to make sure that local authorities can use that civic leadership democratic role that they have. They need to work to support businesses, but there are also times when market failure means that they need to actually take a lead, set out a vision, set out a plan, resource that plan and bring the business community and local communities with them. More capacity to borrow on the strength of new housing in our town centres, more scope to use CPO powers to enable much needed investment to take place, and the powers that we identified in our devolution commission document powers for a purpose would give the authorities the chance to take the lead that is so clearly needed. Local authorities need the capacity to develop vision, they need the finance and the staff resources, so while we welcome this year's annual report, there is much, much more that needs to be done. Thank you very much. We now move to open debate. I call on Jamie Hepburn to be followed by Margaret McDougall. Four minutes, speeches up to four minutes, please, Mr Hepburn. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I welcome the debate and also welcome the Government's town centre. Action plan members may be aware of something called the Kerrbunkle awards, in particular one of those awards, the Pluck on the Plinth, which is an award for the most dismal town in Scotland, organised by Urban Realm magazine. I consider those awards to be very unhelpful, not least because the town in which I live and which I represent, Cymru, has won that award and has regularly nominated it as predictably being nominated this year again. I consider that to be very unhelp because I think that Cymru is actually one of the best towns in the country to live in. It has good schools, good transport links and abundance of green space in and around the town, and the awards certainly would not recognise the strong sense of civic pride that many individuals and many organisations have in the town. I believe that the primary reason that Cymru all keeps getting and this award has been continually nominated for this award, Presiding Officer, is that I will be glad to see that as I bring it to the point of the debate is its town centre. Cymru Town Centre is largely composed of what was built as the UK's first indoor shopping centre. I suppose that fits the innovation of the time, and it does have its defenders, many architects praise its vision and the design, but even those who resolutely defend it in terms of its architectural merit must recognise its modern design. Much of the town centre is now very dilapidated. Many of the units there are vacant and certainly aesthetically, I do not think that it could be described as an overwhelmingly welcoming place, Presiding Officer, so any action plan that can assist the revitalisation of Cymru Town Centre would be very welcome. One area that might be unexpected about Cymru Town Centre, which is primarily thought of as a retail space, is the possibility of trying to encourage people to see it also as a place to live in as well as to shop in, because there are actually some apartments there that have been vacant for some time, and I know as part of the action plan there was funding for a town centre housing fund that actually brought that to attention of the managers of the town centre. I am unaware as to whether they sought to benefit by that fund. I did see other places benefit by it, and it would be interesting to know how successful those experiences have been. I also see that the Government is considering the future of the fund, and I will certainly be looking to see where that goes and if there are any possibilities for my town centre, Presiding Officer. I have mentioned the town centre owners, unlike most town centres across Scotland. Cymru Town Centre is privately owned, and that is part of the problem in trying to take forward a strategy for its regeneration, because it is not only privately owned, but by multiple owners with competing commercial interests. The local authority clearly has a role to play in revitalising Cymru Town Centre, but it can only do so much given its private ownership. It would be good to hear from the minister how any town centre action plan can involve the private sector and private owners to encourage redevelopment. I want to finish by talking about the town centre first principle. I welcome that concept, particularly in the fashion encourages the public sector to look at town centres first for locating their services, but I would caution against it being viewed as a bar to development elsewhere in our towns, particularly in larger towns. Cymru Town Centre is a population of 50,000 and is growing. Recently, we saw an application for new retail at a location in the town, which needs that investment. The planners recommended against the approval, despite recognising that there is nowhere in the town centre for such development. I am thankful that elected councillors disagreed and granted approval. It serves as a reminder that some plan officials might look to apply a town centre first principle as a town centre only principle, and we need to ensure that that is not the case. Overall, the action plan is very welcome. I welcome the progress in that regard, and I certainly can hope that it helps to bear fruit in my constituency. Many thanks. I now call on Margaret McGoogle to be followed by Willie Coffey up to four minutes, please. As a member of the cross-party group on towns and town centres, I appreciate this opportunity to reflect on the town centre action plan. I know that the minister has engaged with the stakeholders represented on the group on several occasions, and I thank him for that. With a change in leadership later this month, it is likely that there will be a reshuffle in the Scottish Government, and many members of the cross-party group believe that it is important that they continue to be a minister with specific responsibilities for town centres. We need to know that there is someone in government who is responsible for driving forward the action plan and who remains accountable to the Parliament for its implementation. I am sure that the cross-party group will work constructively with whoever that person is and to keep town centres and regeneration firmly on the political agenda. There is no one-size-fits-all solution to town centre regeneration. In many of our communities, we face common challenges, but that does not mean that there are always uniform solutions. In North Ayrshire, in my own region, I can see how the Irvine Bay regeneration company and its partners are transforming Irvine Bay by breathing new life into the town centre. In co-winning before that, although car parking remains an issue in both towns, I can also see how, in large, only a few miles away, they came up with a different solution, adopting the bid model after a rigorous and sometimes animated debate in the business community. We cannot regenerate our towns from the political centre but we can do it by implementing the town centre first principle and providing funding, guidance and support. The Scottish Government has to give our councils and our communities the tools that they need to make our town centres more vibrant, more accessible, more inviting and more economically resilient. Retail is changing, how we access services and purchase goods is changing, and the constant growth of new technology means that our lifestyles are changing too. However, let's be clear that there is still a place and there must always be a place for community, for a safe and modern public realm and for our town centres. We know that we need to understand those town centres better. We need to collate and disseminate more local data and information about town centres. We need to map changes in our local economies and help local leaders to identify opportunities for growth, investment and job creation. I welcome the work of the understanding Scottish Places Consortium to develop typologies, benchmarks and a toolkit to help practitioners understand their towns. I ask the minister how the Government intends to roll out that toolkit across the country and when they expect to do so. On housing, there is a recognition that we have to repopulate and revive town centres as living communities as well as places where we go to shop, to socialise and to use services. To that end, I welcome the town centre housing fund and, according to the Government's website, awards from the fund total £2.7 million, yet it delivered less than 100 new affordable homes across the country. We cannot argue that the fund is transformational, but it has shown councils and housing associations what is possible with investment and imagination. In their action plan, the Government also commit to identifying best practice and models of engagement to encourage owners to turn empty units into affordable homes. It would be helpful if the Government could elaborate on some of those practices and engagement models. As I expect, we all know of vacant properties in our constituencies and regions that could be put to better use. I am just finishing, Presiding Officer. You are indeed. It is impossible to say everything that needs to be said about town centres in one short debate, but the Parliament can be assured that, because of the importance of this issue, there will be plenty of opportunities to continue the discussion between the chamber and the communities where the success of this action plan will ultimately be judged. Thank you very much. I will now call on Willie Coffey to be followed by George Adam. Up to four minutes, please, Mr Coffey. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Our town centres are like our people. They have a past, a present and a future, and they will never stop changing. All of them are different, and all of them have their own character. Our task in government is to recognise the issues that they face through the years, help where we can, and set up the conditions that allow them to adapt and flourish. Everybody has a stake in this, the Government, the public and the companies and property owners who own many of our town centre buildings. Many people, mainly older people, look back and wish that their towns were the way they were in the past. Final buildings, streets filled with local traders and department stores, no-pound shops perhaps or paid-ale-owned shops. Many younger people look forward and wish for the modern shops they see in our bigger cities and out-of-town modern malls, with cafes to enjoy and meeting places to spend some time with friends. Who is right? Both are, of course, and that is why this is a difficult task, I think, for any minister and Government, to preserve the best of our town centre history and heritage, to plan ahead with sensitivity, but to open the doors to new possibilities and new aspirations. At all order, but not one that should be the ministers alone, we must work in partnership with all of those who have a clear stake in our towns. The review of our town centres and the resulting action plan are making an impact. The small business bonus scheme is helping nearly 100,000 small businesses that the minister mentioned earlier. Fresh Start is offering further help to bring back into use those empty shops that have been vacant for a year or more, and the town centre housing fund is helping to bring some life back into our towns, in particular at night. I am hopeful, too, that it moves to make more of our towns digital towns, with free wi-fi and will be an attraction, particularly for many of our younger citizens. In my own town of Kilmarnock, there have been some spectacular and transformational changes taking place in recent years, which the minister has seen for himself. Historic old buildings such as the palace, Grand Hall, the Opera House and Johnnie Walker whisky bond have all been modernised and beautifully lit. The magnificent John Finnie street is almost totally in red sandstone and nothing like it anywhere else in Scotland, fully restored. Our historic viaduct, taking centre stage and becoming an iconic symbol of the town, is also beautifully lit at night. Currently, new housing is embedded in the heart of the town that will bring a vibrancy that we hope will benefit everyone, including the many local quality traders that we have there. Yet some problems remain, of course, and people are entitled to expect everyone, not just Government, local and national, to try to address them. Many of my constituents still talk about shops that do lie empty and derelict, with no sign of improvement sometimes over many years. Other people highlight the fears that they sometimes have about shopping in the town centres that are sadly often a focal point for gatherings of people with addiction issues and the consequent disruption that this can cause to many shoppers. We cannot do everything overnight and we do not have unlimited resources, but we can try, and we need to think differently about how best to try to tackle some of those issues. I think that the public can and should have a direct role in generating new ideas for their town centres at the early stages of planning, not as consultees when the architectural drawings are finalised. They should be involved from the start in shaping and taking ownership of their own towns. The corporates and property owners must make a contribution too, and I think to ask whether current rent levels are appropriate for the current market conditions that we face. In Government, we can only do so much, but we have achieved a lot in a relatively short time and we all have a stake in improving our town centres. I am confident that we can continue that good progress and examine some of the issues that I have highlighted. We will see further positive transformations taking place in our town centres in the years to come. Many thanks. We are now very tight for time. I call on George Adam to be followed by Cara Hilton up to four minutes' pleasment. I am delighted to speak in this debate, being the MSP for the largest town in Scotland. The town centre of Paisley is a fantastic place now. I may be slightly biased when I say that, Presiding Officer, but it is fabulous. Buildings, many exciting events that have happened in the town and, more important, the people of Paisley are extremely friendly and always welcoming. The decline in our high streets has been documented throughout the past couple of decades and it is mirrored by other towns in other areas that have similar challenges and problems that we have had to deal with. I believe that the Scottish Government's town centre interaction plan can make a significant impact and change the fortunes of not just Paisley but other town centres across our country. The minister is quite right when he talks about the historic environment bill this coming debate, because, obviously, in towns like Paisley, you are walking through the historic environment when you go by with the Paisley Abbey, Coates Memorial Church. There are various other buildings that are constantly being an important part of our past, which are now used in the present. However, that comes to the challenges that many towns like Paisley are having as well as the fact that, maybe, some of those buildings are used by Greater Glasgow and Clyde Health Board or possibly by the local authority. As services change, they end up no longer using those buildings. We had such a case where we had the Russell Institute, which was used by Greater Glasgow and Clyde Health Board. Luckily, I managed to get all the individuals together. The Paisley Development Trust, with investment from the Scottish Government, is now going to be taking over that building and ensuring that it is still a major part of Paisley's future. I think that that is what we have to look at, because our town has seen the Scottish Government investment building new homes in the town centre right next to Paisley Abbey with a sensational backdrop there. That has increased footfall in many of the businesses in Paisley. In particular, I can talk about one small coffee shop with two young businessmen opened up, which is now extremely busy, because they are getting directly their seconds away from those two areas that the Scottish Government has invested, and they are getting increased footfall. That shows you how we can get people back into our town centres and ensure that we can create the type of future for them that we all want. However, one of the things that I will say is that the small business bonus has made a massive difference to many retailers within Paisley. I know of many small businesses who would not be retailing in Paisley at the presently if it had not been for that bonus. It is a great assistance to them. In Renfrewshire, 2,475 small businesses are benefiting to the tune of £5.1 million in 2014-15. That is the kind of investment that is making a difference in town centres across Scotland. The Scottish Government has protected local government funding in drastic contrast to what we have seen down south. The outcome of the spending review of 2011 is setting out a real terms decrease of 18.6 per cent for 2012-15. One of the other ideas that the Scottish Government has come up with was the fact of the business improvement district. We have that happening in Paisley, as we speak. In fact, it will come as no surprise to you, since my own premises within that area, that once again, Presiding Officer, I will be voting yes in Paisley because I will be supporting the bid ideal in Paisley. All those business people who have got together and have worked towards trying to take ownership, because the people who work and live in Paisley are the best people to deliver for that town and ensure that we can make that difference. I have supported them and I commend every single one of the people involved in that group. Ironically, that group is called Paisley First. That brings us full circle round to the main debate that we are having here, which is town centres first. There has been so much work done. There has been so much events brought to Paisley, which the minister and myself were part of when we were in local government. We have done so much at the moment. All we have to do now, Presiding Officer, is build on that work and take that to the next level and ensure that we deliver for our town centres. Excellent. Thank you for that unbiased view about Paisley. Thank you very much. I now call on Cara Hilton to be followed by Graham Dey. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Regenerating, reviving and renewing our town centres is a challenge that we are all united in. It is certainly one of the biggest issues for my constituents in Dunfermline. I strongly welcome the town centre first principle and approach, which is already delivering real results, despite the very difficult financial challenges that local authorities face. It is the principle that is moving us closer to our town centres, not just being a place to shop, but being right at the heart of public, community and social life. The reality is that our town centres will never again be a place where we just go to shop. Our town centres have got to embrace leisure, not just retail, be a place where people live, not just visit and be vibrant day and night all year round. Recently, I was pleased to welcome my colleague Sarah Boyack to Dunfermline to meet with local stakeholders, businesses, voluntary groups, entrepreneurs and elected members to showcase the fantastic work that Fife Council is doing to regenerate Dunfermline town centre. Already £1 million invested in its town centre and projects, including free wi-fi, flood lighting of iconic buildings, restoration of Dunfermline city chambers, winter festival lighting, digital signage, floral displays and promotional campaigns, all aimed at making Dunfermline a more attractive place to visit day and night and backed up by a longer-term town centre action plan and other initiatives, such as a £2.2 million investment in Dunfermline's cycle network, the fire station creative project and a £12 million partnership to create a new Dunfermline museum and art gallery right in the centre of the town. Clearly, there is a lot more to do, particularly in respect of empty units and derelict buildings on our high streets. I believe that we could do a lot more here with more devolution of power and resources to our local authorities so that they have the power in their own hands to facilitate local economic regeneration even further. That motion today talks about the importance of a renewed spirit of entrepreneurialism in our town centres as a key to their social and economic success. Really, that is key, and please, too, it is an area in which we are making good progress in Dunfermline. In 2013, Dunfermline hosted the first ever Carnegie Test Town final, an initiative based on matching the oversupply of space in our town centres with the huge supply of talent and ideas in our young people, asking young people to come up with new and enterprising uses for shops, offices, stalls, other vacant spaces in our towns and our cities. Test Town is now the UK's biggest town centre business challenge, and I would commend the Carnegie Trust for this brilliant idea, which really has captured the imagination of young people in Scotland and across the UK. Locally in Dunfermline, Test Town's success has led to five council and local traders rolling out their own venture street programme to build a lasting enterprise legacy for our town centre. The venture street is going to be right at the heart of Dunfermline's winter festival and will run right up to Christmas Eve, and I would like to wish all those participating in venture street every success in what some have called Dunfermline's version of the apprentice, so that is obviously something that we are all going to be looking forward to. So will some paint a picture of doom and gloom when talking about our high streets? There is a lot to be excited and enthusiastic about too, but that does not mean that there are no challenges. A Carnegie Trust report on the test town graduates found that there are significant cost barriers in town centre trading, challenges that they could easily avoid at the traded online. Business rates are often excessive, even for start-ups, and rents are simply too high. Too many landlords continue to seek long-term, highly inflexible agreements with new tenants, and that can be a real stumbling block to even the most committed in getting a business off the ground. The town centre first philosophy certainly does not seem to extend too many banks who tend to favour online ventures over town centre ventures when making investment decisions. So while we are seeing real progress, there is still much more to do, and we do need more action to break down those barriers to participation in the town centre economy. If we are going to ensure that our town centres are not just somewhere we go and spend a couple of hours on a Saturday, but places with a purpose, places where people want to visit and spend time in, where they want to live and bring up the families, and places right at the hub of the social and community life. I think that it is worth reminding ourselves of just what the Scottish Government is doing to sister town centres. I want to do that by focusing specifically on the area of the country that I represent. Across a whole of Angus, an excess of £20 million is going into the small business bonus scheme since its introduction, £3.7 million of support is being provided in the present financial year alone. That is real help for more and more businesses, with a number of small-scale operations, having had their rates bills abolished or substantially reduced, having risen from £1,854 in 2008 to £2,361 this year. Additionally, my constituency, Kerry Muir, thanks partly to a £645,000 grant from Historic Scotland, has been established a conservation area regeneration scheme in partnership with Angus Council. The scheme, all told, will offer grants amounting to £1.1 million over five years, aimed at enhancing the look of the town centre. Additionally, Angus is to be the location of one of the four business hubs mentioned by the minister, and Curnoostie is one of the seven towns across Scotland to benefit from the £2.7 million town centre housing fund. A sum of £200,000 has been secured from the fund to provide up to four houses in Curnoostie High Street. Angus Council plans to build the properties on the site of one of two former retail units, which were destroyed in a fire. Locally, there was a view, and one I would ideally share, that the retail unit in question should have been rebuilt, but there was, it seems, no takers for such an opportunity. Therein lies one of the problems at the heart of the challenge that we face in revitalising our high streets. You cannot magic up businesses to fill properties, especially not properties that are constrained by being located in long-established buildings. Even on an attractive high street like Curnoostie, containing some nice shops and capable of attracting, within the past year, a leading retailer like Boots, there is a surplus of available units. In part, that is down to existing units being unsuitable size-wise to meet the requirements of potential incomeers. However, high streets are not just about buildings, they are about people as well, and as we strive for better, there must surely be a role to be played by the public. Like many members across this chamber who represent constituencies containing towns of whatever size, I hear many complaints about the state of the high streets, lack of shops of the kind people want. Yet, at the same time, I know of shops in Curnoostie and indeed Arbroath, for example, which are attracting custom from well outwith Angus, such as the product and the accompanying quality of service that they are offering. However, if we as local consumers do not support local shops, then it is any wonder for sales signs or rent signs adorn our high streets. That cannot only be about government support or local way-driven initiatives. There is a need and perhaps even a responsibility to, for the public, to wherever possible seek to spend the proportion of their disposable income in the shops located in the heart of our towns, rather than taking up the convenient option of buying everything under one roof in large-scale supermarkets. Can I pick up on a point that Gavin Bowne made earlier about the impact on high streets of court and police counter closures? His observation is what I accept to be valid in many places, but not everywhere. The closure of Arbroathshire of court met with a mixed response because, owing to the constraints on the building, we are in an issue there with undesirables loitering on the pavement outside and impacting on football much to the annoyance of neighbouring businesses. Efforts are currently being made to bring the building back into use, serving a purpose that, potentially at least, will increase football in the area, providing a boost for those businesses. In nearby Carnoustie, the police counter which closed was located at a good half mile from the town centre. Police Scotland and Angus Council are presently in discussions over relocating the entire police presence to a location at the very heart of the high street. I draw the chamber's attention to that by simply supporting a point that was made earlier, that no two town centres are the same and that the solutions to improving them are not the same either. You would be relieved to hear that I am not going to speak about my own town. Scotland's town centres is what the discussion is about today and their future, and it has highlighted the crucial role that small businesses play in town centres, which, unsurprising, I wish to focus on. We always should see flourishing and diverse high streets return to our town centres, and a combination of entrepreneurial spirit and government support can go a long way towards achieving this. Government of all levels can play a crucial role in revitalising our town centres, chiefly in two ways, by levelling the playing field with larger businesses and by cutting the fixed costs of high street businesses. It is widely agreed that local businesses are struggling to compete with both larger retail outlets in suburban developments and the rising popularity and indeed novelty of online shopping. Customers shop online and in many shops in out-of-town developments because of simplicity. In other words, the issue is convenience, and that is the essence of the matter. We must make it as easy to shop in your local high street as it is to shop elsewhere. I would first like to say that we should, under no circumstances, see this as a reason to discriminate against out-of-town and online businesses. That would simply not be fair, nor in the customer's best interests. Rather, we must level the playing field by making it easier for high street retailers to compete for customers. Based on what we keep hearing from shoppers, probably the biggest problem is the lack of adequate parking facilities in town centres, particularly when compared to large shopping centres. It is simply too much hassle, too expensive to drive into a town centre to shop. Not to mention that you will be frequently struggled to find a spot to park your car for long enough without facing potential death threats from traffic wardens. All of this does high street retailers no favours, and I believe that we could and should turn this around, but in partnership with councils. To deliver this change, I continue to believe that we and the local authorities need to provide resources and the means for extra parking spaces and cheaper parking rates. Furthermore, there is much to be said for making park and ride schemes more attractive to use. The balance between these solutions is a matter for debate, but I hope we can all agree on the need to facilitate easier transport tuned from town centres so that it is just as attractive and as easy to go to your local high street as an out-of-town retail park. The second approach we could help our high streets would have involved government stepping back rather than stepping in. I am talking here about rates relief. A model that we could learn from is in certain areas of the United States where stand-alone businesses with single outlets are offered a discount on their business rates in order to encourage originality and diversification on the high streets. Too often in Scotland, we hear that all town centres consist of the same brands of multiple outlets. This would chime in with a long-awaited and long-delayed business rates in the centreisation scheme, as it would give local authorities the chance to drive the redevelopment themselves. You see in the United States many different town centres with distinctive shops in them that we do not tend to have here. It would be hoped that the impact of such policies would bring high streets filled with varied competitive, appealing and sustainable businesses, including post offices, libraries and other things. This would increase the chance that the choice presented to customers, make their shopping experiences easier and in some cases make it cheaper. Furthermore, the benefit of local jobs and local economies would be far reaching. That is what we should be aiming for, and I trust that we can all agree to strive for this. Accordingly, Presiding Officer, there is a great deal that can be done to support our town centres and there is a clear direction of what could and should be done. We can all agree on the desirability of a vibrant and diverse high street, yet to achieve this, the Government must take action on the business rates and give the local authorities the means to make driving into town centres much, much more appealing. I did try and follow the minister's speech, but he went fairly quick and I did not pick up on a lot of it. However, he did say the longer term outlook is good and strong. Although I think that progress has been made, I would have to say that we have a long way to go. Boots sent out a briefing where they point out that one in nine retail outlets are lying empty. They are saying that the challenge is to ensure that they are better equipped to support the economic and social aspirations of our communities. Willie Coffey picked up on that point where he talked about involving communities and communities taking ownership. I accept the point that Graham Day makes, that no two town centres are alike. Although there may well be different solutions for different town centres, we would believe that most of the types of problems that town centres are facing are similar. The minister said that he was keen to come here today and listen to how we move forward. Kara Halton mentioned the test town of the Carnegie UK Trust test town. One of the issues when the Carnegie UK Trust ran that test town in Dumfirmland was that the biggest barrier to many of the young people, the entrepreneurs of tomorrow being able to access these premises was the inflated costs of rents. That is an issue, I think. Most of the town centres that I am aware of in Fife have to be addressed. The landlords are asking unrealistic rents and way above where the market should be at. We need to address that. I would say to the minister that I believe that local authorities need to have more power. Local authorities, if they can use the planning system, I believe more innovatively in looking at town centres and looking at town centre renewal. The licensing committees, for example, can play a big part. Tourism can be a major factor in a key industry in many of our town centres when looking at how we regenerate those town centres. It does mean that we need more of a focus. If we accept, for example, that in many of our town centres, part of the solution is to repopulate those town centres. If we look at Cercody, for example, in Fife, that certainly is the view of Fife Council, that getting people back into living in the town centre would be a key way forward. We need to look at targeting specific financial support to support local authorities in doing that. If we look at the case of Dumfirmland that was mentioned earlier, putting the local authority in the driving seat, because what I have learnt from looking at those town centres is that there needs to be strong, strong leadership driving the town centre renewal. In Dumfirmland, Dumfirmland has a new leadership in place now, but I would suggest that it was a decision by Fife Council to put £1 million into that town centre, working in partnership with the local groups and the BIDs company that started to drive that forward. It was then a decision by Fife Council to put an area manager in that was going to drive that forward, pull people together and work with the BIDs company. In town centres, I would suggest strong leadership and the evidence is there. More recently, Fife Council also took a decision to invest £1 million into that town centre. By putting strong leadership, it is not money alone, but it is working with all the key stakeholders. It comes back to Willie Coffey's point. I recently asked the director of community development in Tras, Scotland, if he would be kind enough to come up to Cowdenbeath in my constituency and have a look at perhaps what we would do to move forward there. It is a smaller town centre than Dumfirmland and Cercode, and it is also no doubt suffering decline. He gave me examples of Haddington and many other parts of Scotland where local people have begun to take control of their town centres, working with retailers, being able to take over some of those small units that are there and encourage local businesses to come in to those areas. I think that empowering local communities, as Willie Coffey has suggested, is a way forward. Margaret MacDougall raised a number of important issues around car parking, job creation and the cost of car parking. If the evidence is, in some town centres, the evidence is that if you took the charges off, you would create a bigger problem in terms of not having enough car parking. That is not the case in every town centre. However, if you go back to what the minister said about the dangerous and defective bills legislation that went through and the community empowerment bill, when I first saw the powers in there for local authorities to be able to look at local schemes that they can come up with, it is quite an exciting prospect. The only difficulty as in coming back to parking as well is that local authorities are under major financial pressures at this time. Therefore, to be able to lift car park charges, I know that some authorities have tried in some areas where they are coming up to Christmas, they have free parking after three o'clock, that type of thing, but that all costs money. It actually costs millions of pounds. We do have local authorities that have been using charges as a way to try to get around some of the cuts that they are actually making. There was an interesting proposition put forward by Alliance Boots where they suggested that a business rate incentivisation scheme where local authorities are allowed to keep 100 per cent of the rates above an agreed level can be an effective tool to drive forward town centre regeneration. If it was ringfence, I am not necessarily suggesting that that would be the initiative this week to come on, but I do hope that the local government minister does intend to work with other authorities looking at council tax and looking at the future of the local government finance. As part of that, we can perhaps look at how local authorities can be empowered to do more and lead in town centres. I now call the minister to wind up the debate in behalf of the Government Minister. You have until 5.15. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I think that this is a very positive, constructive and useful debate going forward. Can I turn to the last speaker first, Alex Rowley? He pointed out very helpfully that I raced through the second half of my speech. Rather carelessly as a Government minister, that was a good bit with the funding announcements, but I have been taking the three interventions. I was somewhat panicked when I realised that I was on page 9 of 19 with two minutes to go, so for a full explanation of the funding packages announced, I see the detail in the Government's press release. I am sure that you will all be rushing to it after decision time, but I do think that there is good news in progress and partnership working. The omission of timescales, Mr Brown, was nothing other than being helpful in providing the yearly update report that Parliament did not ask me to do, but in my constructive style, I wanted to offer to stakeholders and, of course, to Parliament. That has helped to engender a lively and useful discussion to suggest the way forward and what you think are the weaknesses in our action plan. I will certainly reflect on all those points. I will not make any party political points, because that has not been the nature of the debate. I would point out that, just in terms of resource, it is very difficult to create new resources when our budget has been cut by Westminster, but that said, we have nonetheless identified new funds for town centres, but we would expect all public authorities to consider the totality of their resources in making a town centre a priority. In terms of individual comments, I think that Cameron Buchanan made helpful comments around the importance of accessibility, business rates, of course, and even the issue about driving into town centres. Driving into a town centre might not always be the wrong thing to do, that is accepted wisdom, but accessibility in every form will be different from town centre to town centre. Back to Alex Rowley's point, boots have given us very helpful suggestions and have invited them on to the external advisory group. Touched upon rental prices, I think that is right. Far too many landlords are still trying to achieve the rental regimes that they got in better days, but we will have further powers around compulsory transfer and proactive planning and compulsory purchase orders, some of which we will pilot through the course of the next year or two, and expanded powers on local authorities around those local rates relief schemes, as well as should assist local authorities to have the power added to the leadership and resource to be able to take the town centre agenda forward. Alex Rowley pointed out that we should put local authorities in the driving seat. I would argue that they already are. Local economic development rests with them, but we recognise our responsibilities as a Government to help set the conditions to support town centre regeneration to make that difference and empower local communities will be able to do even more of that through the community empowerment bill. In terms of resources, there are regeneration funds, the town centre housing fund, the people and communities fund and other funds that I can identify to support individual communities taking forward partnership projects. Sarah Boyack referred to business improvement districts, as did many others. Absolutely the Government's supporting business improvement districts made resources available to expand them. We support absolutely repopulation of our town centres and housing above shops, and I think that there will be an expanded toolkit in terms of planning and the financial tools to support our town centres and greater use, if that is appropriate, of compulsory purchase orders. The acquisition of private sector assets, as well as for abandoning and neglecting town centres through the community empowerment bill. I think that planning authorities will be more proactive going forward. Gavin Brown again raised briths and asked for an update. In the coming weeks, the new regime, as agreed with local authorities and Scottish Government, will be published, recognising where the system did not work effectively before, but there is now a replacement in place, agreed by leaders and Government, to be published imminently. I think that that will create the kind of scheme going forward that Gavin Brown and others, I am sure, would welcome. I think that many local authorities have shown their ability to adapt to circumstances and support great schemes in local communities. I mentioned four of them earlier, out of impartiality and fairness to Labour, to SNP-led authorities, where they are locating and identifying public services within town centres, relocating staff in town centres and supporting private sector investment in town centres. Jamie Hepburn was right to criticise unhelpful comments, such as the look in the plinth, but then it showcased how we can be positive and re-invigorate civic pride in our communities. For Jamie Hepburn, of course, that was Cumbernauld and spoke about private sector leadership, as well as public sector leadership. I commend the work of RTPI Scotland for creating Scotland's Great Places, which celebrates the positive in Scotland. Margaret McDougall, of course, is the chair of the cross-party group in town centres, spoke about partnership working, her experiences in Ayrshire and the tools that local communities need to do the job. Planning toolkit will be forthcoming, repopulation of town centres and important engagement models. I am delighted that Nicola Sturgeon and the Deputy First Minister join me, because she also mentioned reshuffle in her contribution to say that I know that it is not etiquette to mention that in the chamber, Presiding Officer, and I am informed by my boss that it is not. However, the point that was made is that a dedicated minister for town centres has been appreciated and should continue going forward. Willie Coffey spoke about the changing nature of town centres, the partnership approach and the wonderful opportunities of digital that we support. That is why we amended the permitted development rights to ensure that the infrastructure is in place, the investments are in place to expand mobile coverage and community broadband. He also spoke of using the majestic buildings in Ayrshire and Kilmarnock. Graham Day spoke about his community in Angus and how it has benefited from a range of funds that are currently available, not least the housing fund, business hubs and other start-up projects to create that vibrancy and dynamism within our town centres to create diversification, digital and other opportunities, including employment and local business start-ups. Kara Hilton gave a very passionate speech about the work in Fife, particularly in Firmland, about town centres being more than just retail. The principle that is established in partnership is about town centres first, between Scottish Government and local Government, being so powerful and a catalyst for change. I also covered the devolution of power and the leadership role that local authorities can have to great, fantastic projects such as Venture Street and other local innovations. The potential of online and, indeed, the participation and the role that local community groups can play in empowering local communities. George Adam, rather out of character, mentioned Paisley, the historic environment and gave us an example of how a fantastic iconic building that is a Russell Institute supported by Government funding will create that regeneration. Of course, George Adam would be first to point out that Scotland's town partnership, the week of Scotland's town, will be in Paisley this year, and I am sure that George will be seeking to be there. Funding, business rates, Government support are all to set the right conditions to reinvigorate our town centre. I will look forward to continuing to work in partnership with the external advisory group and others to ensure that our town centres have a very strong and vibrant future. I thank all members for their constructive approach to today's debate. Thank you minister. That is the first time I have heard a job application in the chamber. I am sure that many of your colleagues in the chamber will help you polish your CV. That concludes the debate on the town centre action plan one year on. We now move to the next item of business, which is consideration of motion number 1180 in the name of Nicola Sturgeon on the deregulation bill, UK legislation. I call on Keith Brown to move the motion. Thank you. The question this motion will be put decision time. The next item of business is consideration of motion number 10756 in the name of John Swinney on the Small Business Enterprise and Employment Bill, UK legislation. I call on John Swinney to move the motion. The question this motion will be put decision time to which we now come. There are five questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first question is that motion number 11378 in the name of Fiona Hyslop on the Historic Environment Scotland Bill be agreed to. Are we all agreed? The motion is agreed to and the Historic Environment Scotland Bill is passed. The next question is that amendment number 11386.1 in the name of Gavin Brown, which seeks to amend motion number 11386 in the name of Derek Mackay on the town centre action plan be agreed to. Are we all agreed? The Parliament is not agreed. We move to vote. Members should cancel votes now. The result of the voter amendment number 11386.1 in the name of Gavin Brown is as follows. Yes, 12, no, 96. There were four abstentions. The amendment is therefore not agreed to. The next question is that motion number 11386 in the name of Derek Mackay on the town centre action plan be agreed to. Are we all agreed? The motion is therefore agreed to. The next question is that motion number 1180 in the name of Nicholas Sturgeon on the deregulation bill UK legislation be agreed to. Are we all agreed? The motion is therefore agreed to. The next question is that motion number 10756 in the name of John Swinney on the small business enterprise and employment bill UK legislation be agreed to. Are we all agreed? The motion is therefore agreed to. That concludes decision time. We now move to members' business. Members should leave the chamber, should do so quickly and quietly.