 Welcome, everyone, to the day after tomorrow webinar series. This is our fourth installment, and our topic today is Managing by Freedom Within the Framework, Post-COVID-19. These webinar series are an extensive effort by the Eclipse Executive Education Center of Asia School of Business. My name is Hadija, and I am very honored to be moderating the session today. Before I introduce our esteemed speakers, may I please introduce your curiosity about freedom, especially in the context of social distancing in the time of COVID-19? Among the questions that we would like to discuss and hopefully answer today are, can freedom be found in a lockdown? And while our permanent changes, COVID-19 bringing in terms of the way we work and interact with one another. With that, ladies and gentlemen, I welcome you to pose your questions in the Q&A slot. You are welcome to upload the questions posted by other attendees by clicking the thumbs up button. Additionally, you may also specifically address your questions to either of the speakers, or the questions can be general. Thank you. May I now please welcome our speakers. We are very fortunate to have Dr. Tan Tamrung Nawasawad and Mr. Monty Sujanani. Dr. Tan is a professor of practice from the Eclipse Executive Education Center at Asia School of Business. He specializes in breaking complex management and business model into easy implementable steps for organizations across industries. Welcome, Dr. Tan. Hello. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for glad to be here today. And we have Mr. Monty Sujanani, who is the director of Robert Walters to Philippines. Mr. Monty joined Robert Walters Paging in 2013 in technology recruitment for two years. He spent four years in Robert Walters, Singapore, heading up their technology contracting division, before moving to the Philippines. Welcome, Mr. Monty. Thank you very much, Dr. Hadija. Thank you. Mr. Monty, out of curiosity, how is the COVID situation in the Philippines right now? Wow, that's a big question. So the Philippines, we went on lockdown quite a while ago. Actually, next week, we are going into our seventh week. So 16th of March, we declared the entire Luzon area, which happens to be the biggest island in the Philippines, home to about 56 million people, are on total lockdown. Now, it's been quite a challenging time. Most businesses are working from home, or running on very, very minimal workforce. We are still seeing cases. I think I'm not wrong. It's about 6,500, 6,700 cases in that climbing. And today is a big day. The president is due to announce whether or not the lockdown is going to be extended. So everyone's sort of sitting at the edge of the seat, wondering what's going to happen, because it was extended once, and we're not quite sure whether it's still going to be extended. So everyone's just waiting to see what happens. Thank you, Mr. Monty. We're hoping for the best. The same situation as well in Malaysia. We are waiting for the next announcement. And we also split on either spectrum, but hoping for the very best for both countries, and for the world, of course. Dr. Tan, one of the very visible change due to the COVID-19 is the unprecedented and inevitable degree of freedom for employees. Can you briefly explain the concept of managing by freedom within the framework? Yes, of course. Thank you, Dr. Hadija. And hello again, everybody. It's my pleasure to be here with you. And I'm very glad to see that you have chosen to be with us today. Well, I mean, freedom is a big topic. So let me scope it down and just focus this on around managing people in particular that are very pertinent for managers and leaders in organizations today amid the COVID-19 situation. So I mean, to keep it simple, I've actually prepared a slide. So if Dr. Hadija, you could put, yeah, OK. Thank you for that. So I mean, to keep it simple, really, when we're talking about managing by freedom within the framework, it's we're talking about, again, managers and leaders who are trying to balance essentially this fulcrum, which is between giving too much freedom versus having the employees feeling that they are not given enough trust. And as simple as it looks, it's a struggle to try to maintain this balance, especially now when most of us are working away from the office, out of sight, and essentially working from home. Well, it's just to keep it simple for now. I think the key that you'll see in the slides that the key lies in values and purpose, or rather the alignment of our values and purpose versus those who we work with. Be it our subordinate, our peers, our bosses, or even our clients. And it's about looking at ourselves and looking at the people whom we work with through this lens. And it's by understanding how our values and purpose align that allows us to at least begin to work with them or to manage the freedom. And I'll come back and expand on this a little bit later on in today's session. But for the moment, it's just a matter of balancing this and looking through the lens of values and purpose. Now, to clarify quickly when I use those two terms, values are the principles that give our lives meaning. And it allows us to persevere through adversity. And purpose are the goals that we chose to live out our values, so to speak. Or in Euclid's term, we have used this for quite a while now. And in Euclid's terms, values are the engine that drive leaders and purpose is sort of the destination of that drive. And when we're talking about values, we're talking about things like achievement, discipline, security, belonging, compassion, wealth, could even be enjoyment. I mean, some people having an enjoyment is a very, very important thing for them. So it's very unique and it's important depending on the individuals. And we believe that by understanding these values and purpose of the individuals is the key to unlock balancing that freedom versus the feeling of mistrust. Thank you, Dr. Tan. That was very interesting. I really like the part where you say that you reminded us that values are the principles that give meanings to our life. So basically the values of our companies are also the ones that give meaning to the daily tasks, daily duties that we do. That was very insightful. Thank you. If I may shift the attention to Mr. Monty, we wonder now how much freedom is enough freedom and how much is too much. With that, Mr. Monty, would you mind sharing what is your view on the idea of giving employees more freedom as well as what are some of the best practices or experiences at Robert Walters? Sure, Dr. Hadidja. Well, actually, and Dr. Tan, that was really insightful. And it's gonna link to how part of it is gonna link to a couple of things that we've done. But to answer your question, Dr. Hadidja, absolutely. I think it is essential. Firstly, I think it's essential to give employees freedom. I mean, regardless of whether we're working from home or in the office, I think it's essential that there is that sense of autonomy and trust. Trust is a big word. And I think that's probably the key here when it comes to freedom. It's just so happened that now we have to give more freedom given the circumstances and the working arrangement. But to me, I think, and this ties into what Dr. Tan has just mentioned, but it also, I believe it starts with the culture you foster. So from that, we talk about values and purpose. We ran an exercise at Robert Wolfe's, where we got each and every one to write down what is important to them. So this did not come from head office, it didn't come from me, it didn't come from my leadership team. This came from every single person and the core values that they live by. Now, of course, we had a box full of different values, but interestingly, seven core values came out of this exercise. And this is something we then broadcasted to the office. These are the seven values that collectively, as a team, as a group, is what we feel very strongly by. And that was, that created the boundary of our DNA and of our culture. And I think it made it a lot easier once we knew all of that. And I mean, to be honest, this is the culture and the DNA for us is probably the biggest attribute of our business. This created allowance for autonomy. I mean, it starts from day one. We were able to build a high trust environment. We have a very hard work ethic. I think there was commitment and loyalty. To be honest, I think we're freaks. We love what we do. And we established this by asking and knowing the why. There's so much about how we do what we do and what we do, but really why we're doing this and that ties up with purpose. And actually, interesting for us, knowing all of this has given us the freedom to give freedom and a combination of all of understanding the values and purpose. And now it goes. So this is just more of the intangibles that we are talking about in terms of culture and we talk about the values and purpose. And what we've done is we've now obviously taken all of this into consideration and approached management styles and leadership styles that are a little bit more flexible, a bit more autonomous, it's more outcome-based. So for example, we agree to a specific outcome. Now, how or when it's up to the employee to achieve those outcomes? It's at the discretion of the employee. So we call this discretionary effort, right? And as long as it's clear. So the communication and the expectations are clear and it's agreed on and teams, they go off and they do what they need to do. Now, of course, when we're looking at outcomes and we talk about specific outcomes, we have to be very aware of working environment and surroundings. So again, the people that you're leading and you're managing, they might be the same people physically, but actually you're now running a completely different team when they're working at home. But there's so many external factors that you have to keep in check, like kids at home or just conducive working environment. So being aware of all of this, I think is very critical before you actually embark on identifying how much freedom you can get because you have to be aware. But again, at the end of the day, we've taken all of this into consideration and we have our teams, again, we have to trust them and then they go off and they achieve their outcome. Now, that's then the intangible that before I just end that question, I think tangible is also quite important when we're giving people freedom. We've got to have the right setup and the right infrastructure for them to be successful. So things like technology setup and technology spread a big part in this, collaboration tools, and just coming up with clear frameworks on having access to you when they need it, and just coming up with a clear check-in schedule just so that they know you're there for them. So you're giving them freedom, but hey, that's okay. I'm here if you need me, whenever you need me. So yeah, that's a very long answer to your question of how we do things in Rival Waters. Thank you for sharing, Mr. Wonki. I really liked the part that you mentioned that as long as we're working together to a specific outcome, and then also it's not like blindly, the ends here do not actually justify the means because the means actually, you've got the values together, you ask people to come up with values and then you find things which are actually overlapping the seven values, at least seven of them. So that was also very, very insightful and enriching. Thank you. Dr. Tan, this goes without saying, but the managing by freedom framework is definitely very intriguing. We wonder now, how is this different from managing people as usual before COVID-19? Well, yeah, I'm sitting here. I'm actually intrigued by what Wonki has shared about the practice at Rival Waters because personally, I do not know or have heard of many organizations who would ask individuals about their own values and purpose. I think a lot of organizations that I've worked with kind of make the assumption that because you chose to work here, you hear our values and hear our purpose. And it may be true in some cases, but it might not be true in all cases. And I'm just very glad to hear, Wonki, you shared that at Rival Waters, you start at the individual level and you work up for a collective set of shared values and purpose, okay? But to answer your question, I think it is different from how we used to manage people before, but I wouldn't say that it's specific to just because of COVID-19 either, right? Well, we just heard Wonki mention, Robert Walters did not just begin to do this, right? To have freedom to manage by freedom because of COVID-19. Yes, I mean, COVID-19 kind of brought this kind of accelerated and catalyzed this, because now we are so far away from each other and the issue about trust and interesting the word micromanagement. And personally, I thought that this word has kind of become extinct because everybody knows that we should not micromanage our people, right? Yet during COVID time, that word is making a comeback and you're hearing feedback from employees now that they're being managed in a micro kind of way. So, I mean, I think the trending, right? The trending towards working with employees and giving them more freedom is already there. And I think if we have written a book, right? The book called Open Source Leadership written by Rajiv Pachavriya in 2017, talks specifically about this trend about moving towards freedom when it comes to managing people. And there are examples in the book cited, Netflix, General Electric, even General Motors, which is a car manufacturer. So, they also moving towards giving employees more freedom by Mary Barra, the CEO. And also, I think I have so one example of one nearest in Malaysia. So, Dr. Hadidja, you advance the slide once, right? You see, yeah, here we go, right? So, this is one organization that's very close to us, right? This is our very own employee profit and fund, or EPF, which is, in this case, they had won the Talent Corp Life at Work Award in 2018. For essentially, this is a full flexibility for employees to choose when they want to work. And as Tunkul Zakri said here, that as long as we manage towards the outcome, so as long as the outcome is there, we're willing to have the brevity and the trust to evolve around our workplace practice around it. So, my job is a bit of a challenge because I think at the, you see the trend, if you look at the CEO level, right? Or even at the country director's level that you hear from Monty, right? The conceptual of managing people by freedom is there, especially Dr. Ajay, if you click the slide once more, right? Yeah, so this is what kind of what an employee, sorry, one more back, back once. I just wanna show the background here, right? So, when we're talking about COVID-19, this is essentially the backdrop that we're talking about managing people by freedom. It's because nobody is around for you to manage them by no freedom anymore, right? And so, my job is the challenge of my job is how do you make this more practical, right? Applicable or at least something that is visual that organizations can begin to work towards it and begin to move from conceptual into something that's in practice, so to speak, okay? So, let me, okay, now can I have to be the picture? Okay, right, so, excuse me, it's gonna look a little bit theoretical here but I think this is just a nice backdrop that we could use in order to bring that concept into reality, okay? So, well, you can see the picture here, it describes the six zones of managing people by freedom within the framework. Now, we don't have a lot of time here today, so I'm just gonna give you the general idea. It plots the degree of freedom that you see here on the vertical, on the Y axis here and it's a function of alignment of values and purpose, right? Between you and your people. So, as you move up from the bottom left corner, right? So, you see the green zone there, from the bottom left corner, right? When you increase the alignment, you can have a proportional increase in the freedom and trust, okay? So, that green zone is moving diagonally across from bottom left to top right and in this screen is denoted in zone one, two and three which corresponds to a low degree of alignment. Therefore, you have a low degree of freedom and then when you go to moderate and you go to full degree of alignment and full degree of freedom in zone three. What's interesting here is we also have sort of the out of sync or the unaligned zones, okay? Namely, you see here, it's zone four and zone five, okay? So, like I say, zone four where James sit here just for the sake of having somebody in there, right? These are employees who are essentially costing headaches, right? Because they're making decisions that are kind of perplexing their managers, okay? And that would be that what happened when you're giving too much freedom with somebody who doesn't align to the organization's values and purpose, right? And conversely, on the other end of the spectrum, you will have somebody like Lisa in zone five, right? Who might be feeling mistrusted because at least she feels that she has a good alignment with the organization's values and purpose, yet she's being treated that with a way that either resembles micromanagement or to her it's a mistrustment by the boss in the organization, okay? This can span anywhere from a person to person treatment as in the boss to the subordinate, right? Calling in to check, right? Or dictating that things be done a certain way, right? Or it could be done at an institutional organizational level by having bureaucracy and policies that are a bit kind of redundant to the capability of today's employees, okay? And then if left unchecked, ultimately this may make its way into zone six. And this would be where the parties kind of decide to go their separate way. And it's actually is named separation. And sometimes it's a good thing, right? Meaning that the two sides just discover that the values and their purpose just, you know, they don't align and there's no way to reconcile that. So they can be better separately going separate way doing different things, right? But I think more often than not, you also have things that happen because of misunderstanding or lack of communication and people migrate into the zone because they had nowhere else to go, right? So you can only push the person so far and then they'll make a certain decision that both may come to regret later. So as you can see here, it's a framework that at least visually it gives you some something that you could work with, right? So if you're managing James, you're managing Lisa, right? Or you're managing 10 other people, once you begin to see the relationship between freedom and this alignment of values and purpose, then at least you can have a map that you can work with in order to at least have a conversation with the people on where you think they are, where they think they are, but ultimately to try to move people up the zone so that they go to zone three and then everybody can be free to do productive things. So zone three is the sweet spot, is it enough? Yes, for the manager is the sweet spot, right? That means that you can only have to say a few words and then you essentially have a clone of yourself, right? Who are doing something different. Thank you, Dr. Dunn. Really like how you linked the practices in EPF to Robert Walters earlier on how the CEO mentioned them to design your own work and practices and policies in achieving the outcome. So that's very much aligned with how Robert Walters is doing it. With that Mr. Monty, in the context of Robert Walters, given that the firm works at the forefront of executive placement, are you foreseeing changes in leadership and management requirements? And what do you think Robert Walters and other organizations will be looking for post-COVID-19? Yeah, that's a very good question, Dr. Hadeja. So, I mean, if we look around, I mean, we are seeing business leaders, they're really being pressed to make drastic measures, realigning business directions based on the current climate. I mean, to put things into perspective, I mean, our clients and us, we had 24 hours to implement our BCP. And that really, and there were some companies out there who did not even have a BCP plan in place. So you imagine having to then shift as a role of a leader and manager, decision-making capabilities, testing leadership qualities, handling emotions. Are these new skills not quite, but given the situation, we're definitely seeing these skills become more of a priority. As a matter of fact, I was actually, was it maybe a week ago? I was speaking to the CEO of a fintech business and he indicated that throughout all of this, it was a really good way for him to assess his leadership team. And that was from a resilience standpoint. So, you know, who is stood out? And actually to a surprise, it turned out it wasn't quite what he had anticipated. You know, there were people in his leadership team and below the leadership team who had demonstrated flexibility and resilience. So we're really starting to see these traits be, what companies are looking at. So if you talk about hiring perspective, personally, and based on what we're gonna foresee coming up with some additional requirements, you know, definitely experience in managing things like remote teams. Again, using technology is something that we're all now heavily reliant on. Given, you know, we've got social distancing being something that I think is gonna be a long-term effect, you know, we're seeing traditional businesses move into a digital platform. So definitely, you know, having that technical savvy, not technical, but just being tech savvy. So business leaders were tech savvy. So again, being able to transform digitally. I was talking to somebody else again, actually earlier this week, and you know, and it got my attention because I was thinking, wow, you know, this person has marketed themselves to be very solution oriented, senior level executive who has a track record of, for example, driving transformational change. Organizational redevelopment within teams like HR. You know, things like, again, like as I mentioned earlier on, you know, being flexible, so able to demonstrate flexibility. And what I think is definitely a skill that is going to be really something that needs to be tested as empathetic leaders. And again, you know, there's just so much uncertainty of what the shift is going to look like. But again, these are what we're seeing skills of being tested and we see, you know, companies looking for leaders moving forward post COVID-19, these are what skills that are actually going to stand out. Thank you, Mr. Monique. Thank you. Dr. Tan, if I may pose a similar question to you, are you foreseeing changes in leadership and management requirements and what organizations will be looking for post COVID-19? Yes. Thank you. Yeah, sure. And the irony of this is, if you share a little bit about the irony that I see in this is that, you know, especially let's say, we're talking about ASB or the higher learning or higher education or even corporate training for that matter, right? We're moving away from physical beings together, right? And Monique mentioned something like along the line of, in addition to the digital saviness, right? We're also still looking for people who are good at human skills, right? And empathy is one of them, right? And empathy actually is a skill. Empathy is not a trait, okay? There's a, you know, empathy comes from you having the ability to read somebody else's feeling, right? And that is a trait, sorry, that is a skill, right? Because when I say that, I mean, when we were born up until about we were five, six years old, we don't know how to have empathy, right? It is a skill that we learn by interacting with other people. That's when we begin to pick up those skills. And as you can see that in COVID-19, when we're moving away from that, right? Even the classroom to learn about empathy cannot be in person, right? I'm not sure how do we learn how to be empathetical looking at a small camera hole like I'm doing right now on a computer, right, in order to work. So it is a, indeed it's a challenge, right? And to come back to managing by freedom within the framework, it's even beyond reading behaviors now. It's about understanding somebody else's values and purpose, right? And then to link that to what we discussed earlier to the given freedom and trust to operate, when especially when we're working, you know, from a distance, right? So the reality of the matter is that with technology advancement, with, you know, people's ability to self-develop now, open source capability, sharing economy, et cetera, right? We're now dealing with employees who are more capable and driven than ever before. So I'm not saying that managing by freedom within the framework gets kind of like a silver bullet that's gonna cure all challenges. It's not, right? But I think it's a framework that it's, it gives us a way to look at how do we reinvent management, right? When there may be no more business as usual. And when employees now have the willingness and the skills to do the job, right? Then what should the manager's focus be, right? So I think this might be the new norm that we're looking at when we come to management and leadership. So in short, I think you manage people better if you can understand and make use of this lens, especially in the world post COVID. Thank you, Dr Tan. If I could summarize both of your sharing just now. So for time to come, there's long-term impacts of COVID-19. We actually need leaders and organizations who are more empathetic, tech-savvy, flexible than ever. And also we need employees who are very driven and more motivated and as well capable to be tech-savvy. Let's take a look at the Q&A slide now. May I please remind the audience that you could upload the questions that you like by clicking the thumbs up button for those who would like to give feedback or ask questions after the session has ended. Please feel free to scan the QR code. Let's now take a look at the question on the top of the list. So we have seven thumbs up for this question. If I may read the question. In times like this, how should business leaders demonstrate empathy for their people and customers? Many businesses are looking at pay cuts and other remuneration adjustments which seem at odds with this. Yeah, okay. I can start with this one, Dr Hadidya. So maybe, I mean, we talk about empathy here as being, Dr Tan quite rightly pointed out as a skill. And I think it is, it's not easy but it actually just starts from listening personally. I'm just sharing what my personal view on empathy is but really actively listening to what is going on to your people and to your team and really just hearing them out. Now, we look around, there's, I mean, there's a lot of uncertainty, right? You talk about pay cuts, you talk about remuneration adjustments, people are being laid off, encouraged to take less hours, to take less money. So I think communication and listening, these are the two things that really need to happen hand in hand. Think of a very open, have a very open communication and dialogue from the beginning to your team so that they know what is going on. It's very easy to think, oh, I think we should ring fence what's happening because we don't wanna affect the morale of somebody in the team because it might have a negative impact but actually what you're doing is you're not communicating, you're not being open. So when businesses need to make certain decisions, it comes as a blow. So I think when what I'm trying to say is, I think it's really important to be, to have a very open line of communication with your people and then actually just ask you very straight for simple questions like, what is going on? How are you dealing with these times like this? It's never a fun job to do as a leader to cut somebody's pay. It's not something a business leader looks forward to at all. And so I think when you show empathy, your team, your people will also empathize with you and they will, it just becomes a two way street. That's my two cents. Yeah, okay, let me jump on that because I think you hit the nail right on the head, which is, it's that communication, right? And if I may even go one step further, right? That communication leads to honesty. So I think what COVID-19 that we begin to see is that, COVID-19 is from a management point of view, it's a catalyst that really show, it's really showing how honest your organization has been managed up until this point. I think the conundrum of this question is, it's kind of, it's trying to say that, can you be empathetical and also make tough decisions at the same time? And how do you get your people to understand that, right? And my answer is yes, I think you can be both, right? It's not a choice between A or B, you can be both. You can be tough, you know, make a tough strategic decision and you can also be empathetical, right? And if I may use a personal example here, right? I used to work for BCG or Boston Consulting Group, right? And we had a culture of this called up or out, meaning that either you get promoted within the timeframe, usually it's about 18 to 24 months, about a couple of years, or you have to look for a different job, right? That was the way the business was run and it's run, I believe, right? And when I tell this to other people, usually a lot of people are shocked by this and they think that this is a cutthroat kind of environment and they don't, you know, treating their employees with respect. But the reality is that it works, right? And the reason it works is because there's a clear understanding from the beginning, right? On the values and purpose and on the culture that supports it, right? So let's say for example, when we was talking about out, right? Or being out of place, there's no stigma around it, right? There's no bad feeling around it, right? In fact, maybe 90% of the people who go through this path will be out at some point in the career at BCG, right? And we don't just kick them out on the street when the time comes, right? They're a process to help you land proudly on your feet. So I think it's possible to be both. And if you had been honest in your culture, right? And living your culture and living your values and purpose, then it's perfectly fine to have an honest conversation that's both empathetical and strategic at the same time. I agree, yep. Thank you, Dr. Tan. Thank you, Mr. Monti. If the audience remembers when we were registering for the webinar, there is a box where you could ask your question. So there is this one very interesting question that kept popping up. So the question goes, if schools remain closed for a more prolonged time post COVID in view of children's safety, working parents will have to deal with a new reality of managing children at home while attending to their work. How should employers rethink work arrangements for such cases? If we could have Dr. Tan, if you don't mind? Sure, sure. Yes, I'm dying to jump on this one as I have two children myself. For me personally, even with managing by freedom within the framework, because it's usable even in personal lives. So COVID-19 in particular is given my family a chance to create some framework, if you will, for our children to have the freedom in. So for example, we've put in rotation for chores. So now kids every day, they're asking who's on dishwashing duty for this meal today. We have a rotating chore to do that. We have contracts. We're assigning contracts for video games that certain schoolwork needs to be done before they can play games and there's certain duration that they can play it for and there's the caveats here and there. And even daily routines that they're now following because they're staying at home so much. So in the background, these are all values, if you will. These are all values that we'd like the children to have to learn. And it may not have been possible without COVID because their lives were not so systematic as they are right now. So we're just taking that opportunity to instill some of these values so that they'll know and understand the framework so that they can have the freedom to operate within. So I think that the questions on if the school remains closed for a long time, you think of it as an opportunity to instill a similar framework and then to work out a system that your children, much like your team members or your subordinates, should be allowed a certain degree of freedom as long as they understood the framework that they're operating within. Monty, you wanna jump in as well? Sure, so I don't have kids, but actually maybe I'll share. So one of my managers in the leadership team is a working parents. And I've had to change my leadership style because it's quite reliant as well on her kid's schedule and we have to be flexible with such arrangements. In fact, she planned her work around her kid's schedule and sometimes her child would join us in our leadership calls and our meetings and just embracing this working style and these arrangements. It helps with the parent just to be okay that, okay, the business understands that I've got more on my plate other than just work. So I think definitely from a flexibility perspective, again, being out, I mentioned earlier on just being outcome focused and just being aware that, okay, we're very understanding and very aware of the time that you have to spend at home working through activities with your kids. Totally okay. And honestly, it's not a problem and it works quite well. Of course, initially it was, at the beginning it took a little while to get a routine set up and actually it was really interesting. She's created a safe space for work and the child now knows that if mom's sitting there, that means she's in work mode and just coming up with just very creative ways that, so for example, if the child is doing an activity, that's the time certain work items can be addressed. So coming up with an agenda and a schedule that works for the child and for the parent, that's worked quite well and for me as well, it's opened up my eyes a different way of managing. So yeah, that's my two cents. Thank you. We are mindful of the time. So we have five minutes left. If we could discuss probably one or two more questions. So the second most popular question here is, how do we assess our team's performance and wellbeing during MCO and post MCO as well, as we will continue to work from home and social distancing measures are likely to be the new norms of the corporate world. Yes, thank you. Yeah, I'll jump in. Yeah, no problem. Yeah, no, so that's interesting. So when we look at, for us, performance measurement is essentially in line with what I mentioned earlier on about outcome focus, but I'd like to talk about wellbeing because we're again going into our seventh week and whilst it was fine in the first few weeks, the longer it goes, you think it becomes easy, but actually it becomes quite challenging. Honestly, this is so important for us. So we just try to have a ton of fun. We try and keep work light in terms of, we have games and it is so critical. Sometimes people think, oh, well that doesn't really make any sense or the time and energy it takes to put something a little bit outside of what you're normally doing. It goes such a long way. So just making sure that everybody knows it's okay to have a bit of fun in these kind of situations and environment. I mean, from a long-term perspective, we talk about social distancing and this becoming a new norm. I think it takes some adjustment to get used to this, but again, the wellbeing, mental health and mental wellbeing is something, there are a lot of courses out there about wellbeing. In fact, I think it's really important to know how to keep yourself happy and how to keep yourself motivated. But I think, again, just putting some focus on wellbeing will actually result in your performance, your team's performance. I think that it goes hand in hand, right? If you mentally stay, you're kept, if your wellbeing's maintained, then it's gonna affect your performance. But yeah, have a bit of fun, absolutely. Yeah? It should be all about work. I mean, I agree. I think for the most part, right? Organizations are doing quite well, monitoring the, what's the right word? The hard side of performance, right? The numbers being hit, whether you can hit it is another story, but monitoring it, I think we've got the digitalization element in part to help us with that, right? But I think Monty, and if I'm looking at another question here, also relating to that, I think the mind is around, how do we make sure that our people, the softer side of our performance continues to uphold our motivation, right? Our spirit is still high during the time that we don't get to see each other very much during COVID. And even I looked down one question from the one you asked, Dr. Hadidja, says, how do you know if people are moving towards separation zone? Yeah? So I think this is kind of like what we were talking about here, that either the sense of well-being is going down, the motivation is going down, their spirit is actually taking a bit of a hit, right? And how do we move them off of it, right? So I'm gonna actually take a crack at this answer, at this question in part to answer that question that you posed as well, Dr. Hadidja. And I think to solve any problem, you have to be able to see it. You have to be able to know what you're trying to solve before you can begin to solve it. And I think that's why today when we talked about the framework to use to manage the people with freedom, it's at least we attempt to make it as to be practical and useful, because once you know where your people are, right? Then you can have conversation that focuses on those behaviors. Because remember that, you know, when we're talking about values and purpose of the organization, it's not about what you say, right? It's about what you do, right? And there's a huge step between what you say and whether you're doing the things you say, right? So organizations, CEOs may be saying that our organization values teamwork and respect, right? But if you get called out in public, right? Via email, via whatever, for mistakes that were made during this time that we are away from each other and may not have had a chance to vet through it together. But if you get called out in public, that is gonna send a different message completely from what the preacher had preached, right? So if you leave these things unchecked, then it grows into resentment, right? And then that's when people starts moving towards separation. And I agree that sometimes there are good things such as good separation, meaning two people are not meant to be together, right? But I think there are a lot of cases where it comes out of this resentment as well. And unless and until you're able to say that this is where I am, okay? And your manager said, oh, I thought you were here, right? And then once you can put your fingers down on something like that, even virtually, then you can begin to have a meaningful conversation in order to sort out the issue, maybe only something as simple as an apology, right? Of the inadvertent statement is enough to recover somebody from a situation of moving into separation. Yeah. Thank you very much, Mr. Montier, Dr. Tan. Unfortunately, that's all the time that we have. Thank you, everybody, for posting your questions. If I could remind everyone again, you could always send more questions or your feedback just by scanning the QR code. Again, very, very grateful to you, Mr. Montier, Dr. Tan for being here and sharing your thoughts, expertise, and experience, as well as enriching this webinar series. Thank you, everyone, for attending. And hopefully we can see each other again in the next round. Thank you, Dr. Anishya. Thank you, Dr. Montier. Thank you, everybody. Stay safe. Thank all. Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye.