 So thank you for joining us. My name is Teresa Brazen and I am Senior Director of Professional Education. I have with me today a panel of people who are really intelligent, experienced women who have been in leadership positions for a long time. It's a really interesting perspective to share. And I think I'll do quick introductions of everyone. And then I want to do a little bit of framing for the conversation that we're going to have. And then I think we'll do a lot of the talking and I'm going to ask some questions. So first of all, I have here, this is Rima Dewan. She's Corporate Director of Technical Services and Interiors at Tash Hotel. She has 16 years of experience in hospitality type services and design. And she's a very BV resume. She has played a key role in crafting immersive guest experiences and developing and implementing strategic design robots to strengthen positioning of Tash hotel. Impressive woman number two, Sujitha Tarnath. She's CEO of Sujitha Tarnath at Sakai Solutions. She has been 32 years in high tech and IT and recently decided to make a shift and become an entrepreneur. And so Sakai Solutions is a research-based content-driven tech-enabled platform specifically for women. And she has an engineering background and also this very smart woman, this doctorate in cognitive social structures. Mary Warby. She's head of design transformation at VPPA. And she's coming all the way, she's putting in Madrid right now so she put the, right? So she flew in for this panel earlier talk. She has 20 years of experience in banking, education, publishing, e-commerce, and games. She's led design, research, and strategy teams. She has an MFA and new media from the Academy of Art at San Francisco an MA in international relations from Columbia University in New York. She's also lived in the United States, Europe, Russia, and India for those years. Deepa Bachu. She's CEO and founder of Pensar which is a design strategy and innovation consulting firm. She has 20 years of experience at large, multi-national tech startups. She's led design, innovation, and product management. She helps to pioneer design thinking and into it. She, and in fact a project that she led there became part of a Harvard Business Review case study, there was a case study about it. And it was one of their top 10 innovation must-reads. Next to her is Sue Cooper, my friend and sort of former boss. She's co-founder of Cooper along with her husband, Alan. What Alan Cooper has known for pioneering design practices. Sue really, I hope you're okay with me saying this but build the company. And they, she did that for 25 years. So, knows a lot about building companies. And in particular, and I can attest to this, she really focused on fostering a culture that supports and powers and develops creative leadership in the people that work in the organization. And Hiarji was a marketing executive at Logitech and Digital Research. Last but not least, for me and Maggie, she's the GM of digital development at Shell and DF. She has 20 years of global experience in R&D and building technology organizations and developing new products. She has a master's in software engineering from Illinois Institute of Technology in Chicago. And she, like all of these women, is a big champion for women in technology. So before we get started, I wanted to play a little bit of foundation for the conversation. And I want to start by asking you to imagine that you are going to have to give a talk at a conference like this one. You have to create it, figure out what it's going to be, reverse for it. And you're going to do that with a partner. And that partner is someone who's different from you. They are of another gender, the opposite gender of you. Maybe they come from a place like Russia. So they also have a different cultural background. So what do you think the impact of just that knowledge would have on what you would bring? Well, there is a lot of research and there is a large body of research that is from organizational scientists, psychologists, social scientists, economists that tell us that the impact just of knowing that you would work with someone who's different from you would trigger you to work harder to prepare better because you would anticipate that you don't come from the same point of view. You anticipate that, it changes the way that they get, it changes the way that they work. The other thing that's really interesting is that if this partner were to share an idea with you you would actually think that that idea was more novel than someone of your same gender and cultural background. They share the exact same idea. And what's interesting about that is that it would probably broaden your own thinking. It has that effect. It causes us essentially to be more creative when we work with people who are different from us. So why is this important? This is really important to design and to technology because we are all in the business of solving problems together. Big complex problems and they're becoming more and more complex, the world gets more complex. And those problems benefit from diversity of thinking. So that's kind of the premise of this conversation where we're going ahead. Is that diversity of thinking is a good thing, not only for ethically and culturally but also because it gets us to do better work. It causes that within us. So that all sounds great. This is not a new conversation. There are a lot of... I've actually met a number of women since I've been here who have been on panels about women in leadership. This is a conversation that's been happening in the United States. Things are changing. They're not completely changed. In India, my first day here, I saw three different billboards about educated girls. What is it? Would girls read in India? I think it was the tagline, whatever. And there is some recent research that says that child marriage has dropped significantly. And in fact, in Southeast Asia as a whole over the last 10 years, it went from 50% to 30% in large part because of the progress in India. So change is happening. On the other hand, it's not totally changed here and it's also not totally changed in the United States. India is unfortunately the third lowest ranked in the world for women in senior leadership roles in the world. And it's been that way for the last three years. And of the organizations that were surveyed, this is from the Economic Times, 41% of them have no women in leadership positions. So we go back to diversity is good for innovation. Diversity is good for our collective work. That's not a great statistic. In the United States, women interestingly have more education than men. They have more higher degrees across the board. But when you look at what's happening in leadership, you look at all the companies that are in the S&P 1500, 18% of board seats are women. 25% of executive management level goals are women, 25%. The women are more educated, but they're not actually in leadership. Women are only 9.5% of top earners, more educated, but they can pay less money. 6% of CEOs. Okay, I don't want to be depressing. What I do want to talk about for the rest of this time is what do we do with that? That is our reality in both in all the companies or countries that are represented. Things are changing. They're not totally changed. We want to keep the momentum going. But that's a break. So my first question for whoever would like to be able to tell the answer, I would love to talk a little bit about what are the current obstacles? What are the things that you all are seeing that are hindering women from moving into leadership positions? Okay. So some of the things that I, a question that I often ask and I've been asking across several years is, what's the greatest limitation that you face or we face? I think what we don't do very well is to tap into that inner reservoir, the repertoire of experiential knowledge. We all have struggles and we all have experiential perspectives on how to solve them. I don't think we sort of tap into it very well and we want to solve a problem. And if I can say that, so not in actually going to talk more depressive statistics, India is all of those that you did say we have more educated women. We have women enrolling far higher in doctoral and in master's programs in India. But the sad thing is in the labour force, the percentage of women has been dropping steadily. It was 37% in 2005 and now it is about 37%. So we do have those depressing statistics as evidence to tell you that there is a decline even in the urban workforce for several reasons. And one of them being that the Indian middle class has got so much more effluent that they don't really want their women to go to work because they don't think it is a financial necessity anymore. And they sort of tell women that you would stay at home and look after the family. And the second thing is that the cities in India tend to get a little unsafe and therefore these are some of the top two reasons that we side to ask them to stay home. So the labour force story remains here as much as a major problem. And you were right in the leadership positions even worse because as they progress through the corporate hierarchy, women tend to drop off the ladder because of these very reasons of family pressures. So there are struggles everywhere and this is what I meant to say. When I ask a woman what is exactly her limitation, she has a lot of experiential knowledge of how to deal with it but she essentially doesn't know how to go about it in India. And that is what I try to do in my work today by creating a platform which helps women find solutions to these struggles and these struggles I think are to learn. So I'll stop here continually. To add to some of the views that she mentioned, I'll give a cultural aspect, especially from the Indian context. This is a way of thinking that has come right from our work. For example, we live in a large family. I come from a family where my father had nine siblings and we all lived in a large house. Our grandparents where they ran the industry. So it's not that the money or financial instability led us to live together. But it's been a cultural aspect of living together. So the point where she mentioned that women taking care of house is built into the birth of an individual. It's that that is more difficult and that's why you need to take care of home to upbringing kids. So that's one aspect of it. The second aspect is it's just not relevant to only Indian women. Women tend to be a lot more, I wouldn't say less confident. They would actually want to prove themselves before applying for new positions. For example, I have often seen in my own teams, when there is a higher position that opens up, a lot more capable women often think twice before applying for that position. They tend to think, have I done this in the past? It's all about cultural, it's nothing to do with the way it would come out. Men often jump on to it. I'm not saying that capable or incapable. The way they counter problem is, let me see once I get into it. Whereas women measure that and then jump on to it once they are fully confident. So these are the cultural aspects that I do it. There's a research to support that. One of the barrier which I feel is, I feel it's one of the prime barrier is, in corporate level, we often be evaluated based on our gender. And there are certain criteria or maybe values associated to these genders. And if women try to break these barriers, they'd be considered as maybe unseminist or maybe not doing the right thing. And confusing the entire thing whether they are on the right path or do they have to revisit their thinking. And even if you pursue yourself very strongly, there are corporate barriers such as corporate gatekeepers. This is how you should be dealing. This should be the leadership style. Whereas for men, there is no specific leadership style. But for women to conform to that, they might have to step into those masculine leadership style, bend themselves and sacrifice their own identity. I think it's on a couple of levels. There are systems, the rules and the norms and behaviors that we all have in place that we've all grown up with. We're used to them, men and women. And then there's the cultural piece and the messaging that women get. And I have an example from my past before I became a designer. I was in the military. I was in the U.S. Army. And at that time women hadn't been in the military all that long, the U.S. military. So the rule had been changed. But the attitudes of not only the men but also the women who got into the military were very mixed around should women be there, what was their role. We found that women were judged by a different standard. The physical standard was actually lower for women, which caused resentment among the men. But the women that were in, they actually had to work twice as hard. They had to exceed the male standards just to be taken seriously and to prove that we belong there. So I think it's kind of step by step. You have to change the system level, but then there has to be a corresponding change in the cultural attitude and the level. And it's going to be a little kind of a jockeying over time, I believe. Something I've observed over the years is when there is a success, women are very hesitant to say, I did that, and to take credit for that success. We and I say, we did that, we did that together. My team did that. Oh, I don't get credit, you know, sharing credit. So I think the solution, at least in our culture, is to have more people recognize when a woman gives a significant achievement or does something new or different from the corporation. And echo, when you remember a thing, I tried to do this, but when someone, anyone comes up with a good idea, echo that and say, what I heard, Theresa just said, and say it again. But give credit to that person. Because so many, and I just see it over and over again, so many of us are hesitant to take full credit for the things that we've done. Whereas men's inclination is to say, I did this, I, I, I. And it is so, I have a husband, I don't think I'm very good yet. And so I'm quite practiced in raising my hand quietly and saying, remember me? So anyway, I think a solution is to echo each other. So, you know, interesting perspectives from having lived in the US as well as India and sort of looking at the, I guess the contrast and the differences. I want to start with a personal story though. I was at the US and there was this project that was really, really sought after. And my manager actually nominated me for that project. It was extremely strategic, a lot of visibility and all of that fun stuff. And I was extremely tentative. But my manager was really pushing that I could throw my hand in the ring. So he saw that I was being tentative and he asked me, he says, you know, what's going on? Do you know, are you not interested in the project? And so I said, well, it's actually personal. And he said, you know, he encouraged me to talk about what was going on. And I said, my husband and I were planning a family. And so he says, OK, the last time you checked, it takes at least nine months to deliver a baby. And so you're still going to be here for that time, right? And I said, yeah, but this is a really important project for the company and it requires someone to be here at least a year. And if I get pregnant in nine months and then I'm out of what happens to the project, he says, do you think all your male counterparts that have thrown their hat in the ring are asking themselves the same question? He showed me up and I got that job and it was the best thing for my career. And I tell you that it's, and I now pass that learning on. I say, make the guilt worth it. You know, make it worth it. Put your hat in the ring, throw your hat in the ring. Another quick story, my husband and I were arguing one morning, this was in the U.S. where we didn't have all of the support, amazing support system we had in India. So my daughter is the same, she was about two years old. And my husband and I were arguing about who stays back home to watch her because we couldn't send her to India. And my daughter, she hears my husband and I arguing and she changes her clothes, she's probably two and a half men. And she says, you know what, Mommy, I feel better, right? But she got terrified that we were doing that. And I tell you, guilt, gosh, I mean, both my husband and I were terribly embarrassed for having done that. A lot of women say, I'm going to quit my job, it's not worth it. What I tell them is, make your job worth that. It's important to do that. It's important to keep your hat, throw your hat in the ring, get those challenging positions and make that guilt worth it. Because I will tell you, my second child, when I took time off, my husband and my daughter begged me to go back because I was not getting intellectual stimulation at all at all, right? And I was driving up a walk. So this is my advice based on my experiences that you're going to feel guilty as a mom, as a wife, as whatever role you play, that you've got to make your job worth that. And I'll add to that an experience that my husband and I had, two children, and he had to fight really hard for the term of the week. And he had to ask for multiple burns and was discouraged from taking it, which is I think illegal actually in the United States. And an observation that I've had is that the systems of our companies decide for our own families who's going to take care of children. They do because men are discouraged from taking time to participate in taking care of their children. And a lot of men feel very, they feel a lot of pressure that if they take even a week or two weeks, most men that I know in the United States have no idea how they're going to get, maybe take one week, maybe, yes. And it's tricky because even if the father wants to participate, there's a double obstacle from the inside of the company, which is a shame. So that leads me to, I'd like to ask a different question. So these are some of the context that we're dealing with, that we're all dealing with. And one thing I know about leadership is that ruthless prioritization is extremely helpful. It helps you to be a better leader. You have to decide what we focus on, right? So I want to throw that question to you. Given the complexity of our cultures, our work environments, the history that we all share, if our goal is to clear the path for more women to join the forces, design and technology, and even move into leadership positions, you're going to have to focus on one thing to focus on, but you get the most bang for your buck. Work doesn't have to be the thing. It's a lot of pressure. But one thing that you think would be really helpful, what would you focus on? What do you think would be the most interesting? I think asking critical questions, or building a mindset to ask a particular question. Because I think most problems are a few layers through the surface. And one thing that we tend to get very hard on is we sort of get to hear these cultural discourses very often and we limit ourselves to the sort of numbers. So setting priorities are probably influenced very strongly by the cultural discourses being made today with this. So if we could question our talents and our best interests, which could be that we have a very clear system that it means the cultural, the social, the public, that we have a very clear system that we must stick to. So building this cultural, the most critical mindset to question that I think is important. So I think it's really important for me as a priority. And I would say for all human readers to sponsor other women. I think that's really, really important. I was sharing with Theresa yesterday that I was in the U.S. and while I was working into a business, we sought out a leadership training. And we were at it, of course, very few women, but there were women. And there were photographers trying to capture that training. And I was Indian, pregnant, and a woman. And so they really wanted a picture of me. And I have to tell you I was cringing. I was like, oh my gosh, don't do that. Why? Because I think throughout my life, I tried to blend in. In the U.S. I wouldn't wear a few clothes because I wanted to blend in more. That was just so the opposite of what I now know and I'm like older and wiser. I think it's important to bring your individual, unique self to life in a single day. For those of us that are trying to blend in, it's important for women like us that have overcome that to sponsor other women. And I don't mean just mentor. I mean sponsor. And by that, mentoring is helping. Sponsoring is putting your own reputation on the line for another woman. It's really important that women and women do that. You know, they say that tomorrow is International Women's Day. We get one day of the year and men have one day of the year. So I think it's important that each of us, perhaps in this room, think about one promising woman. And not just any woman, and not because she's a woman, but because she's a deserving person. You know, like you said, no lowering the bar because it's a woman, find a good woman and sponsor. That's a really cool idea. And I want to, since it's one thing to reset our decision, I'm normally a systems thinker, but I'm going to go super micro on this and I'm going to go back to the mentoring idea. And I run a team that includes men and women. And I try to mentor them all. And I think it's particularly important for women to mentor men. It sounds counter-intuitive. Oh, all the mentors. I think systemically, there's a lot there. But change at the heart and mind level has to happen. It's going to take the men, too. And if all the women just say, well, we're going to focus on the women because the men are focused on the men, that's just going to add more division and it's going to take us longer to solve this problem. So as counter-intuitive as it may sound, I would suggest and recommend that women, they mentor the men, too. I just want to thank my business partner for stopping the noise back there because I completely forgot what the question was. I was watching all the things slide by. So thank you very much for stopping the noise. Appreciate that. That's what we need to go on in our organizations. When we see something that's wrong, we need to speak up. And I want everyone, I hope men and women, will speak up when you see something going on, particularly if a woman is being stepped on or pushed down or not getting equal treatment or fair treatment, please speak up. So thank you for speaking up to the noise. That was mine, too. Because I think one of the important things for me is to really stand up for yourself and for others. Speak up, speak out, raise your voice, make your voice understand and hurt and collaborate. And I think that's important, whether with women or men, just make them understand. Sometimes we feel that they understand or maybe organization at a higher level, they understand your issues. But it's always better to make yourself understand. I think that we should speak up in terms of not just that person, but why it's good for the company. I think if we put everything in context of why this is good for the company, then you get more response. If you say, I don't like it, then it doesn't get a good response. But if you say, look, this is an important issue for the company and we're going to make 25% more relevant when we get this done by Q4, then you're heard. So putting in terms that the executives of the company can respond to and appreciate. I'll bring in some aspects of culture here. There was this lady in our team who was very silent. Communication is one difficult thing that actually makes people open up and understand people. There are some people who just don't open up, who are in their own shell. How do you handle such people? Women has this lack of understanding and reading out texts even without being communicated. The lady in my team was an excellent programmer. But the problem that she faced was she was not opening up or volunteering to speak it out. So giving a little push to such people and giving the confidence in them actually makes them much, much more... They bloom out to be such wonderful, powerful characters in the organization that you would love to sit back and see them blooming. I mean, it's wonderful to see such people have been fortunate enough to have such people in my team in the past and I really enjoy them and I see them either in newspapers or taking part in big major events or getting several patents in their name. These things really make you feel proud. So these are some of those things that women can... I wouldn't say it's only women, however, we have a certain act where we can figure out who's that, what is that they're bringing onto the table and identifying them and helping them, giving a little push to them so that they bloom out. So, building on that, one thing that I try to do is when I see a woman ask for something like a raise, an example, I try, I begin by acknowledging that they just did something for the brave and saying, I am really proud of you for standing up for yourself as a woman and coming to me and saying that you think you deserve women. And then we have a conversation about whatever the request is, but first and foremost I really try to acknowledge when I see women doing things like that. And I also have benefited from being pushed. My previous boss, Kendra, who soon knows, basically threw me in a room in front of people to start teaching and I do a lot of teaching today and I'm very comfortable with it, but for like six months I was wildly uncomfortable, wildly wildly uncomfortable. And then I started to think about what I did every day of my job. And then there was this point where I got used to it and then I started excelling at it. But I do feel very grateful to her for deciding for me that I was going to do something that I was uncomfortable with. And I think it's a good thing for us to keep in mind given that it is true there is research that says that women don't ask as much as men that, and particularly those of us who are watching for that and we're prodding and encouraging and paying attention to most of the men who are asking for things and the women on my team are being really silent. And just being observant to that, being aware that that dynamic does happen. Because all you need is one experience like what I had where they're pushed to do something you're afraid of and it can really change what you ask for in the future. How much time do we have left? How much? Any more minutes? I just want to build on what Teresa said and kind of extend it to yourself. So sometimes you do have somebody that will push you in and you're uncomfortable. It's harder to opt in to discomfort yourself. You were thrown in and I had that fortune as well but I think it kind of gets to owning or embracing the guilt, embrace the discomfort because you're going against the grain and it's going to be uncomfortable. Own it, accept it, and put yourself in that uncomfortable position because it will get easier. It's hard the first time. I used to be terrified of public speaking to the point where I was shaking so badly I couldn't drink water. When I was talking because everybody would see my hands shaking. So if I get my hands on my pockets I could get through it and now I'm okay. Do you all have any questions? I wanted to make what you said about being afraid in the first six months. Men are afraid. Men are terrified in those six months. Also, don't be fooled. Thank you. From the time they're this big they're told don't be afraid. Go out. And women are told a different story but they're just afraid. Especially for the mic. I do have a vision for the Indian. I see in my company, girls are really scared of coming out and when I talk to them they feel like they are being judged. So I feel like it's a mindset. And how do you feel those mindsets? Can you give them a push? Give them everything? Still the mindset is hard to change. Then what do you think about that? How to change their minds? You know they can go to talk to their managers or they can wear whatever they want to wear. But how can we be competitive? Exactly what I said. This is exactly what I read. I said that you've been evaluated based on your general. I think we have to just drop the facts of male and female. And you know, perceive ourselves as a professional. If your male counterpart can go and ask for a raise or maybe reach out to the manager for some issues or whatever the things which are really quick. So are you? So I don't think so that you should really restrain yourself or not doing that or judge yourself. And another thing which I see is that often we just compare ourselves with other people. Like if they are doing this then preferably we should be doing this. I think every individual is different and you should have your own road map understanding your own capabilities your own inner self and just rely on emotional intelligence. We had an experience. So we all have a workshop going on in our company where they're doing empowerment for the girls who are not coming up. So I take a part and I was trying to push them. There was one girl we were having a task where she needed to only pretend that she's talking with her manager. And I was the manager. So I was not actual manager but just like a task you were talking. She was shivering. Like shivering and bubbling and I'm like what? Why are you so scared of even talking to the manager and he's mad? Yeah because I mean from the childhood you know it's part of our culture we've been really suppressed and for many western countries it's breaking the glass ceiling I think for India is first breaking the marble ceiling which is like you know a fight with your own inner self and then fighting with your families like okay the decision which you are taking you really have to stand by it you know first you judge yourself and then you just convince your family then you go out in a corporate culture and you know like breaking the glass ceiling and you know breaking all these barriers so that's why I think it's important for women to understand each other empower each other and rather than pulling each other down because I have seen in corporate a thing that you know they really pull each other down because this is how they refer their success your oh shit I also wanted to be in this situation or I wanted to achieve that so and why to hold yourself back what will what will happen one thing you should always raise your voice and speak out for yourself I have a slightly different perspective I think you know for me what's worth is to say less about men do this women do this and talk about my own stories you know the story that I mentioned about my daughter the last time I said I really cheered up because it was a very emotional story for me as I was telling the story there was a woman in the audience that had a question but she couldn't say it because she was so emotional right and I actually let her she was cheering up and I said it's okay it happens to me as well and I pointed to what just happened to me as I told the story so I think somewhere to begin okay and lead by your own stories versus you know say people tend to be like this or like that because you don't really know what their cultural context might be I think being vulnerable as a leader is a really important thing and so when you show that you have those stories too and you share it with them I think it gives something that's what I do so my name is Ahmed so we'll talk about making the conversation like the own bit way making the conversation at home we have a really healthy competition when it comes to how much we make so in a competition I guess usually I honestly feel really good with them but I have one question which I have how many wives do you have why an ancestor so just one question is that women try to support themselves and there are men I suppose like me who want to support that feminism or equality also what do you think would be the role of men to make sure that the gender equality in terms of corporate sector or professionalism increases where women get their view and how can men push women to do much better what should companies do to bring inequality for men for men sorry I didn't what can men do to bring what can men help I'll again talk with my own example men giving a little push or showing that confidence taking the same example of where I started with I'm a cold pecky by heart I love doing things rather than talking up things so when it came to actually picking up the next role it was always my manager who came and said why don't you apply for it I'm like would I lose that out in terms of doing it I love doing things said no not really you are the boss so you can figure out what you want to do and actually recognize men or women whoever it is can recognize what's good in an individual and help people to do things of their own plus move up in the ladder I mean this is one I can think of a lot of leadership meetings when we went to our socials it would always be over drinks in the evening and the talk would be about sports or politics all those four things don't interest me and I want to go home and you guys know the traffic in Bangalore I want to go home to my family and spend the weekend with them but Friday evenings would be the leadership sort of social and you know I actually spoke to my manager and I said it's great that you have a spouse at home that can manage your children but I don't have a spouse at home managing my job I want you to do this off-sites a lot of times the leadership off-sites or even team building they're all overnight and I had someone that was on my team that said she went home late nobody in her family spoke to her because she went away and they thought she was prioritizing work over family and they actually gave her the cold children to eat so I think it's about being sensitive another woman said gosh you know I've got to do this off-site I've got to pack my kids' dabbas early in the morning so she actually started preparing for it the previous night itself I think it's about being sensitive a lot of team building can happen without being overnight it can happen without it being Friday night over drinks so I think it's important for us women to speak up but when we speak up knowing that it's difficult I think it's important for men to listen when you do that I also remember we were talking about diversity and why diversity is a challenge we're talking about gender diversity in specific and I made a comment and right away all of the other leaders who were men said oh do you mean we should give women special treatment it took a lot of courage for me to say what I did and right away I was shut down thankfully my manager said you know what we may not agree with her but let's hear her out I think that's the support we need I think we just it doesn't mean listen to us sorry it doesn't mean do what we're saying but at least allow that voice to come in and I think whether it's men or women like you said and you had said that earlier as well soon to amplify that I think is important and that's important in corporate environments especially where I think we have more men than women especially as a group I'd like to add on that and this is actually advice for women too we've all grown up in the different cultures but we all seem to have this global gender separation and we have unconscious biases that we're not aware of once you put a cover over you see two resumes and you see the names you automatically start to think different things about these two people so I would urge everybody to question yourselves first question your assumptions when you're a boss and you think oh this male on my team he's the one that should be promoted maybe it's merit but maybe not and we all have these biases I think we all do it could be a constant effort for at least a generation or more for us to break these models so start to question yourselves and even question others too why is he being promoted and she's not why is the rule like this because all of this legacy stuff is just sitting around for generations now and it's going to be up to us to remove it and the first step is to say it's done here alright I'm sorry we need to wrap up thank you so much