 50 INEC offices attacked in four years, report says, as INEC chairman Makhmudia Kubu insists that it is the responsibility of all Nigerians to protect INEC facilities. Tonight in continuation of our Town Hall series and a countdown to the 2023 elections, we will be addressing the need for violence-free and credible elections in Nigeria. And of course, this is PlusPolitics, I am Mary Anacol. The Independent International Electoral Commission has so far recorded 50 attacks on its facilities across 15 states in the last four years. IMO had the highest number of attacks on INEC facilities, with 11 incidents followed by Oshun, with 7, Aqaibom, 5, Enugu, 5 and Iboni State had 4, Cross River State also had 4 and Abiyah 4, Anambra had 2, Taraba, 2, Borunu, 1, Ogum, 1, Lagos 1 by also 1, Ondo 1 and Kaduna 1. The breakdown has shown that in 2019, INEC recorded 8 attacks, 22 in 2020, 12 in 2021 and 18 in 2022. With the recent attack, the Chairman Independent National Electoral Commission Makhmudia Kubu on Monday pleaded with Nigerians to see its facilities across the state as national assets. Yakubu pleaded, well, this plea came following the 7th attack on INEC facilities in five states in the Federation in the last four months. Now, joining us to discuss this is Adene Kea Lobash, she is the Programme Director Data Fight. We are also being joined by Oboe Fangahi, the INEC resident Electoral Commissioner in Dostate. Well, for my background, he is a journalist and he is the Head of News with Kool Wazubia Info while Achike Tude joining us is a Public Affairs Analyst. Thank you so much, ladies and gentlemen for joining us, it's a full house. Thank you for having us. Thank you all for joining us. I am going to start with you Mr. Fangahi because INEC is on the front burner tonight. With these attacks directly on INEC officials, Nigerians are worried. Many who are still waiting to get their PVCs are asking a lot of questions. The issue of, you know, their PVCs being hard, or data from their PVCs being harvested and those who probably may have lost their PVCs in those fire attacks are wondering will we be able to be part of this election? But let's start with how INEC is going to recover from these attacks. Okay, thank you very much. Just like your background report has said, it's sad that we're having attacks on INEC fast litigants across the country and given the reports of how many we've had in the few months and going close to the election, it's worrisome that this is happening. But INEC is doing the much it can in terms of recovery of the materials that are needed for the election. Some of the materials that have been destroyed are such that we can easily procure new ones, including the permanent voters' cards if there are some that have been destroyed. INEC is able to produce new ones to give to the owners to vote in the election. But importantly, we need to do everything to ensure that there is a stop to this situation that is happening because nobody, this is not going to all go well for the entire country. It's not just INEC fast litigants that are being attacked by defects of the entire country and the election is very important to the country and we need to have elections in 2023 because the ten years of office of various office holders will come to an end and you will have to have elections for the successors in office to be elected. So it's something of concern to INEC and I'm sure that every Nigerian is also concerned about this. But INEC is doing the much it can to ensure that even when this violence has happened, we are able to recover in terms of getting new materials for the conduct of the election. It's an expensive thing to do, but it's something that we must do if the election is going to go on. Many have queried the fact that if these things had happened in previous years, knowing that there is a tendency of it repeating itself, they're wondering why INEC had not necessarily thought of securing these offices where these very sensitive materials, especially PVCs that are very, you know, everybody wants their PVC right now. It's more like the most sorted after thing in Nigeria now. Many are wondering why these places are not as protected as Fort Knox or even the CBN. Well, the duty of securing public assets is not that of INEC, it's that of the security agencies. So we are working with them. They know that INEC is a national asset, the facilities that must be protected. So the issue actually should be what have they done so far and what needs to be done more to ensure that this doesn't happen. It's not INEC on its part, we've done what we have to do, and when you talk about the permanent booters carts, which is a much sought after item, there's no other way we can do than to have the permanent booters carts in the INEC offices where the owners are coming to pick them up. There's no other place we can keep them. If we decide to keep them in very secure places, how will people collect them anyway? Because people are coming to collect them every day and so they must be in INEC offices and then the INEC offices need to be secured. And then across the country, we are working with the security agencies and then after the more recent attacks, we've had more security officials as posted to the various INEC offices, both at the state level and at the local government offices to secure the places at all times. I'm going to come back to you, but let me come to Achike. We're talking violence free elections, so violence is on the table. We're seeing violence. We've seen violence before, during and after elections. It's been a recurring factor in our elections in the country, but 2023 being an election that many have touted to be a game changer or make it all my election. What should be done in terms of rhetoric to address this issue of violence? Because you see at the core of this violence has to be something that is being said or done. And what do you think keeps fueling this fire? What would make an Nigerian who's asking for change, who wants a change of leadership, who wants good governance to go to an INEC office and destroy it? What would be at the core of that? These people are asking questions of the Nigerian state. They're not only asking questions, they are testing the will of the Nigerian state. And they have seen that, and they have shown capacity to test the will of the state. And the state has not been able to sufficiently push back. The Nigerian state is weak today. It cannot defend itself, neither can it defend its citizens. A state has a lot of power, you know, and, but unfortunately, you know, the fact that this is now happening at will. It's an indication that certain people are already aware that we can push the limits and that the state will not be able to push back sufficiently. So they are having a feel that they cause this mayhem and this destruction and nothing happens. They are not arrested. If they are arrested, the ringleaders, because they are must be, they do not send themselves. They are acting at a script nobody knows. Now you could say, at the initially because we have had, we've been embroiled in violence for quite some time now, over 12 years. Boko Haram, joined by bandits or non-gun men, and all kinds of non-state actors. Cursing, you know, acts of destabilization in the country. Now you, but at this stage, right now, there's an optic in the violence. And I make offices continue or remain targets of these attacks. So you cannot say, yeah, if it's out, it has to, you know, do with secessionist agitation. You have it in other parts of the south side that were hitherto not violent. They were not experiencing this. You've had it in the southwest. You have it in parts of the north and all that. So that tells you that, you know, there is political motivation for some of the things that are going on. What we are seeing is the disturbing rise of anti-democratic forces at work in the country. They do not want the country to work for whatever reason. They want to influence the course of this election, whether it is going to be held, you know, to, to, to frighten people. It will be living that it is not safe for them to come out and exercise a democratic franchise or perhaps to scuttle the entirety of the electoral process itself. You cannot hear but have a little bit of pity for the INEC. And I agree with the resident electoral commissioner. It is not a security agency. They are dependent on the efficiency of the Nigerian security forces to be able to protect them, protect the elections, you know, protect their properties and their assets. And they are not able to do that. I remember about six weeks ago we, we had the meeting in the Nigerian civil society station room, National Stakeholders' Theater in Abuja. The INEC chairman was present and the issue of insecurity came up. In fact, he was the first person, he was the person that said that there are two major issues that bother him. One is the issue of insecurity. The other one is the issue of the abuse of, of funds, you know, for the election by the politicians. In terms of the electoral law distribution, the electoral law and all of that, security was a priority. He did say at that particular point in time that with the damages that INEC has suffered across other parts of the country, that they are, as at that time, in a position to remedy the situation. But that they are hoping that the security forces will be able to do their path to ensure that further damages do not occur. Because it will get to a level where they might not be able to redeem the situation. I'm curious because now elections are not happening and it's going to be happening simultaneously across the country. If we're not even, I mean, we're not having elections yet and we're, we're unable to be sure that these guys can protect our facilities and sensitive materials. How we certain that they can give it to us on election day. No, no, they cannot. Let's not go, no, this is not about semantics. What does that mean if you say they cannot protect me? They cannot protect. I want them to be able to protect because that is their duty. But they cannot protect. I mean, the evidence is there. It's empirical. When they struck, you know, good state and not sure state, the feelers we got or the statement from the federal government was that they were going to deploy security to all INEC facilities across the nation to protect them. Or, without exception, after that we have a series of attacks on INEC facilities in Imose, Anambra State. You mentioned I think Aquabong and some other places after that. So they know that these are danger points. They know that these are targets and that they said they were going to be ready for any eventuality with regards to those targets. And yet they happened. So what has gone wrong? Is it that they told lies that they were going to deploy security to those places that did not deploy security? Or that the security that were deployed, that they were overwhelmed by superior firepower, we have not been told how many security personnel. Was there an engagement? There had to be an engagement. If you already had security people on ground and then you had not bad non-state actors coming in to cause problem within those facilities that are being guarded by the security forces, you would expect an exchange of gunfire or whatever it is. But there will be a confrontation. We have not been told that in each of these places there were I mean such confrontations took place. Or an attack was repelled. An attack was repelled and all that. So what exactly is going on? So sometimes you wonder whether there is much more to what is going on. Is it being orchestrated at other levels, at other quarters, by even state actors and non-state actors or state actors acting in synergy with certain non-state actors? We do not know, but the state has a duty. The Nigerian state has a duty. The president has a duty to ensure the protection, you know, adequate protection is given to INEF facilities nationwide. It is a sad reminder of where we are in the country today. Well, let me come to you before I go to our data lady. What Tachiki has said, I mean, and the anticipation that has built up for 2023, a lot of people have so much hope out there. Hence the number of people we see at INEF offices to get their PVCs. And what Tachiki has said is anything to go by that the police cannot protect these facilities. How are we certain that we can be protected on Election Day? And what does this say about the enthusiasts and the hurricane of wanting to go out in 2023? Excuse me. So the honest truth for me is that elections will hold on February 25th and they will hold successfully in a large percentage of areas across the country. This, what's happening now is not new. At least I've been old enough to have followed elections, you know, from the late 80s when I was still a small child, you know, up until now. But I would say professionally over the last 15, 15, 20 years, you see these things happen in the build-up to elections. We saw it happen in Anambra, you know, months before the election. And a lot of persons were saying, would elections be held? Today, Chukuman Soludu is the governor of Anambra State. Elections held, you know. The question would be how many people will turn up? But I can also say that the persons I've interacted with, persons, you know, in the course of doing our work across the country, a lot of Nigerians are getting ready for this election. Yes, these issues are happening. And like Kachi said, we can't take away politicians from being possibly responsible for these things. One of my favorite lines from, you know, Game of Thrones is that chaos is a ladder. Somebody somewhere is benefiting from the chaos. Somebody somewhere is benefiting from the insecurity we're seeing. Is it possible, or is it not possible that one political actor somewhere knows that this is my opponent's stronghold? So what's the best way? Because, let's not also forget, I make kudos to them. They've been able to reinvent themselves, you know, in such a way that the average Nigerian is beginning to trust that next year's elections will be free and fair to a large extent. The politicians are beginning to realize that, oh wait, the things we used to do before, you know where we, elections are held in polling units, but they go to coalition centers and rewrite results or they take away ballot boxes and de-enfranchise a lot of persons that maybe it might not work. So is it possible that it's some of these politicians who are instigating a lot of these? My question is, what are they afraid of? What are they afraid of? I mean you're saying it might be them, it's possible, so what could they be possibly afraid of? So the average Nigerian politician who has no other access to money gains a lot from being in office. That's why they move from PDP to APC, from APC to whatever party, just because they do not want to be out of government. For the politicians who have made politics a career, they can't stay out of government because of the amount of money they have seen a lot, have interacted with a lot of them at close range. Once they go out of office, six months, one year, the kind of things they used to do, the private jets they used to fly, the quote-unquote ladies they are used to taking out of the country, they can't afford those lifestyles anymore. That's why anything that will stop them from getting to that path, they will do it. If it means destroying INEC offices, so be it. I'm going to come to you, Adenike. You are a data person and I'm sure that you have also had conversations with INEC about these issues and the concerns that Nigerians have raised, especially the cases of fraud. There have been also politicians who have said that they're not certain if INEC's technology would really be able to take us where we want to go in 2023, but let's address those genuine concerns like the beavers, concerns like, oh, can somebody use my card if they're asking for my data from my PVC? Can it be used on election day without me being there in person? Have you had people raise such concerns? And of course, people have also said, how can we be certain that INEC is not also being bought over by these so-called politicians? Yeah, thank you very much. So some of the innovation that INEC has brought into or that has been introduced into elections in recent times and that INEC will deploy for the 2023 elections are actually really good in terms of the possibility of reducing elections fraud or reducing elections, most active, for instance, it is except there are other policies are played. Another person cannot use your PVC because this biometrics involves that your face, with your fingerprints and things like that. So all these being equal, it means that a random person cannot steal your PVC and go and use it to hope. Now, here is where I think that, again, I have always been on the side of INEC communicating more, communicating quicker and communicating louder. For instance, in all of the conversation around elections violence, the way it's supported in the news and some of the comments from INEC, the thing to do is attend to address the public. You know, the public should be aware, violence is not the answer. And I'm wondering why you address the public that is terrified as well. I think that the conversation to the both public cannot be, you know, don't engage in elections. Because most people are terrified. Most people are afraid that their votes are not going to count. Most people are wondering, okay, this technology that we have introduced, outside of civil society and media, it's meant to provide clear understanding of the nation around the technology and what it will mean for elections. I'm wondering how much more work INEC needs to put into communicating each trend, communicating the fact that they are on readiness. I'm wondering when we're going to see INEC outreach. And I understand that these are, you know, startups of government, you know, but I'm wondering where is the outrage again? Or maybe not again, right? We outrage around the violence that is just overtaking INEC across the country. You can't fight with the people. You've got to fight with the people who are supposed to be responsible for keeping those items safe. I think that these kind of communications are important for the people to know that INEC is up to the task. Right now, it just feels like we're all, you know, INEC is trying to cut its losses. It's saying the things that, you know, we're working against it, but we're not seeing the signs of it. INEC is saying that it's going to the technology, but people are still terrified that their votes are not going to count, that the human factor is going to come into play, you know, during elections where some, maybe some electoral office is right, or he is, you know, and then they're manipulating the system. And it is nice for me to come and say, hey, that's going to be a little difficult. It's nice for me to come on air, but how much more nicer would it be if it is the INEC chairman saying this thing consistently to the people? How much more nicer would it be if we can see these conversations of we're going to increase security? People are already terrified that votes are not going to count. Nigerians are already terrified with security issues even making it possible to vote. And now INEC, the custodian of everything that is supposed to facilitate these elections, appears to also be terrified about election violence. So where should the people turn to? Where should, you know, where should confidence come from? I think that INEC needs to do a better job. I don't want to say project false bravado. I'm saying that against the conversation with the people in a way that they can understand. They can, don't just say where the federal government has said they are going to deploy force here. Yeah, the federal government has said a lot of things. They have said, right, it's going to be cheap. It's not, I mean, anybody who has seen this much of the look can tell you that. So they said, oh, inflation will come down. Dollar will come down. It happened. So when you tell me, oh, the federal government has said they are going to do this, it doesn't exactly encourage confidence. It doesn't exactly make people feel confident in what the government is doing. And so I think that there needs to be more clarity. This is how we're doing it. I think there is a challenge. Get the people on your side. This is the challenge we are facing. We are talking to the police. We are talking to these people. This is the right country. I mean, Nigeria has a ratio of one policeman to 400 people. Already there's a challenge in that. So we're being more vocal about these conversations. I think I think that it's not a solution, but it's a step in the right direction. OK. I just wanted to comment because you see, when we started, Mr. Boyfong clearly stated that INEC cannot be doing the job of security agencies. And they stated that clearly. But again, I'm tossing the mic to you, Abul. They're saying that, oh, she's saying that you're not clear enough. You're not loud enough. So again, what is it that you need to do for us to be able to hear you clearly? And I also want to quickly toss this in. On Christmas Day, the issue of insecurity is not just about INEC offices. There are people who are also afraid of what's happening in the area. In Kaduna State, people were killed. While those people were being buried, another attack happened. In those areas, how is INEC supposed to tell them that everything's going to be all right and we're going to have elections? How does that work? OK, thank you. Maybe I should start by saying that on Christmas Day, INEC offices were open. And people collected permanent voters' cars in INEC offices. During this holiday period, our offices have been open apart from public holidays. And in some states, they actually open on public holidays to attend to members of the public who went to collect their permanent voters' cars. This is to show that INEC is ready. People who need to access our services are having the access even during holiday period. And we are sharing the information about what we are doing in this direction. So yes, the attacks have been happening. Yes, we've talked about those whose responsibility it is to send the attacks or respond when that happens. And I've also said that across the country that we've had more security forces in INEC offices than before. So like in the state where I preside as resident electoral commissioner, in the last two months or there about, we've had a lot of permanent security officials permanently based in our offices at the state office and at the local government offices at all times. So members of the public who are in those locations see that there is security in these places. And that is why you find that even while this is happening, a lot more people are going to INEC offices to collect their cars. Today I was in one of the INEC offices and I saw the number of people who turn up there to collect their cars. So INEC is showing in its conduct that we are ready and we are working towards conducting the election in 2023. And the members of the public have shown confidence in it and that's why they're coming to collect their cars. If they were so frightened about this whole thing, then you'll have a situation where people are not approaching INEC offices for fear of being attacked or that they are not sure that elections would be held. Okay. Well, we're still talking about violence-free elections come 2023 and all that needs to be done. We'll take a quick break when we come back. Can INEC, the media, civil society bring a solution to the problem? And what would that solution be? Is it something we can get today, tomorrow or maybe in 10 years? Stay with us, we'll be right back. It's still plus politics and we're discussing how we can achieve free-fair credible elections and of course without violence, even though violence has been a major issue in the election, electoral process in Nigeria. And still in the studio with me, I have Adenike Alaba, program director, data fighter, boyfinger, INEC president, electoral commissioner for AdoState or for Mike Bamano, a journalist with cool Wazubia info and Achike Choudi, who's a public affairs analyst. Achike, I'm going to come to you now with the issue of what can be done. We've talked about all the problems, not even enough of the problems, but then we need to seek out solutions. Yes, we have, like I said, astronomy, people are changing. Now there's been this argument that the middle class is always found wanting when it comes to the elections. A lot more of these people sit at home and tweet and don't show up for the election. We've also complained about the statistics. We have so many people who register for the elections, but then very few of them show up to the elections. How do we change that scenario? Is there going to be a change for the better? What we're seeing now, don't forget, we've talked about all the insecurity and all the problems that Nigeria is facing, including the fact that we have nothing close to good governance. Well, if you want to go by the classical or classical definition of a middle class, we don't have a middle class in Nigeria. That has disappeared, you know, over it, absolutely, completely. I'd say to you, we are looking at it from the perspective of people who are fairly educated. Like Miriam? Yes, you can also look at it from that perspective and say, okay, we are maybe one or two cars, you want to look at it from that perspective, because okay, from that perspective, but I think things are beginning to change with regards to that, because I think they have also realized the mistakes that they have been making, their reluctance to get involved in the political process. Under normal circumstances, it is not the very rich that drive people for political, to ensure political change or social change. It is the middle class, because they are the ones that are most affected, either positively or negatively. When things go wrong, the rich or the very rich or the super rich are there and nothing really affects them so much. So you find out that in order to protect that class, they are the ones that tend to influence people that are of the lower rank, to get them to move towards a particular course of political action for the good of everybody. If we look at it from that perspective, you realize that we are beginning to have a change of mindset. More and more people are engaging. A lot of people, educated people, people of the older generation, it's not just because people are saying now is the youth that are moving this or mobilizing, no, it's not. There are so many other Nigerians that are involved that are in their, maybe between 45, 50, 60s that are talking about what is going on in the country and that want to be involved in the political process. And I suspect that if the trend continues, we are going to see a lot more of them participate in the process itself. So it's not all doom and gloom in terms of their non-participation. I think it really is a thing of the past. People believe that this election in 2023 is going to be pivotal. And what's going to make this? What's going to be that cursor in the direction that we want it to go? No, I mean, the fact that people are tired, generally tired of what is going on in the country. We were tired in 2015. They are more tired today than 2015. Don't forget that in 2015, there was a bit of fresh air. Supposedly Nigerians felt that a political party had been in power for how many years? Over 12 years. And for 16 years, they have not been able to do much. There was not much traction at the economic level, fighting corruption, you know, insecurity and the rest. And then you have not had a group of people who came and said, look, we understand the situation, we can solve this problem. We know what it is. And there was angst, you know, with the failure of what Nigerians saw as the failure of the previous government from 1999 till 2015. And so that led to a movement in a particular direction that saw to the overthrow of that political party. And then this set came in. And so, you know, for Nigerians, it's been, if you look at the experience before then, and the experience from 2015 to date, about nearly eight years now, it's like they move from the pan right into the fire. And so Nigerians are now saying, okay, we give discipline a chance. We got the wrong end of the stick. We now gave the alternative a chance. We got the wrong end of the stick. And it is the reason why you now have, for the very first time, you know, for quite some time now in contemporary Nigerian political history, you now have a third party that has made some sufficient waves, you know, and occupied some space in the country, whether we like it or not. So it is an unprecedented situation that rather than the normal political parties, we have been used to the APC, the PDP, you don't have another. So that gives a little bit of hope to people that perhaps we might be able to do something. And you can see that the other parties are also worried, you know, because down there, they realize that they have also missed the mark somewhere. So it's not so, if you're serious, Nigerians have found themselves in this situation, but the degrees have always been different. Where we find, I mean, in 2015, you talked about, empirically, the bag of rice in 2015 was selling for how much? Today, a bag of rice is selling for around for something 36,000, you know, a liter of well was selling for how much? How much is this selling today? What is this foreign exchange? You know, what is the value of the Naira today with regards to the dollar and other international exchange instruments, monetary exchange instruments and all that. So everything has gone down here. And so you now have all of these things, you know, as part of the animals or the anger that is driving Nigerians today with regards to what is happening and the fact that they have to make a political choice. Okay. I'm gonna talk about the media here, which includes me. How well is the media done in changing the narrative because of course our job as the fourth status, not just to get accountability from leadership but also to point people in the right direction, whatever that direction might be. Now there is that mentality that no matter how much you tell people about who they should vote for and what they should do, there's always what's in it for me. That mentality that we have as Nigerians and if he runs across, you know, all strata, how has the media done? How well have we done in changing that mindset? Do you think we've done well? Have we even scratched the surface? Without trying to, you know, part myself and my colleagues in the back, I would say to a large extent with the kind of confinement we've found ourselves, you know, with some strict regulations, you know, seen and unseen, you know, that we have had to deal with. At least let me speak for the last seven and a half years or there about. You could argue that the media has done well. Can we do better? Absolutely, yes, we can actually do better. But let's also not forget that quite a number of media organizations also have their bias, you know, that there's the media ownership. Without mentioning names, I think most Nigerians are even beginning to realize that maybe this media is tilted towards this way, that media is tilted towards that way because of ownership or whatever reasons they give. But in all of the things we say, the average Nigerian understands one thing, that in seven and a half years, we become poorer. Petrol, you know, has gone from 86, 1, something, to 250, 270 Naira, for the middle class that doesn't really exist. You know, just a few years ago, you could fly a return ticket with 50,000. If you don't have a 150,000 now, I'm sorry, you can't make a trip. You know, all of these things if it has not touched you, it has touched me. It has touched, you know, the average man on the street. So they understood, a lot of people who probably didn't understand in 2015 understand now the power of their vote. Understand now that if you sit at home and you're playing football on the streets, on the Saturday when they're doing elections and say you did not vote, that you did not vote still means that you have voted because it means that a small percentage of people will end up deciding whoever will take charge of decisions for the next four years. If I speak for the middle position I work for, at least over the last couple of years. Consistently, we've made it you know, point of duty to educate. In fact, after every news bulletin on our station, you hear, go and get your PVC. Elections have consequences, you know, so that people would know. And I will tell you to a large extent that has also made a few persons decide that, you know what, I need to go and register. You know what, I need to go and collect my PVC. Are we going to get it perfect next year? Probably not, but I think we're going to get it better than four years ago, better than seven and a half years ago. And we hope that, you know, with INEX plan with security agencies, hopefully doing what they need to do and then us, the leader and civil society will get it better. Something that you can say before I go back to Oboe and Nike, there's something that you can say about, you know, the third force or the third party that has somewhat occupied space. It seemed to be that this is almost something that happened in 2015 when there was that bandwagon. Oh, this is the new baby. Let's, you know, follow in that direction. That bandwagonism, has it not been the death of us? So to a large extent, you know, see, the one thing I know for sure is that there's none of the traditional parties, the party in power and the main opposition party, who can beat their chest right now and say, come February 25th, we are going to win this election. None of the two. Including the new party. No, I'm talking about the two traditional parties. For the third force, the labor party, even they themselves can't even say for sure that we are going to win this election. And I love that because what used to happen, again, kudos to INEC. If there's one great thing that INEC has done, is to bring back some form of confidence in elections, what used to happen before is people go to polling units, vote. You will see that candidate A won. By the time the results get to the coalition centers, something else happens. You know, such that somebody that has 5,000 votes become 25,000. And you know, the politicians got so comfortable that they would tell you, don't worry. In fact, there was a particular incident, you know, I won't mention the state, but the sitting governor had all but, reportedly and allegedly, had all but lost the election. And that's one person you think can say, how? How did he do it? But the plan from the opposition at the time was, don't worry, let's win it first. Let INEC declare it, then they can go to court. You know, that used to be the norm. But at least from what we see that INEC did an equity or shown and a little bit of Edo and Anambra, we can see for sure now that people's votes will count. You can't just buy PVCs and expect that, you know, you're going to manipulate the system. It's not going to be a situation where is the total number of registered voters in each polling unit that will be used. It will not be a question of the number of accredited voters. So that's why I'm just waiting to see what, you know, politicians will do on February 23. But the good news, like I said is, whether it is the APC or the PDP or the Thought Force that is in LP, nobody can say for sure right now that I will win. Okay. Back to you, Nikke. Nikke, I just want to pick up from here, vote buying. It's one thing that INEC has had to deal with. It's one thing that Nigerians have had to deal with. How do we change that mindset? I know, you know, talking about getting more and more people involved, I spoke with a young man who came up with an app or a platform that is encouraging people to vote. He has 23 reasons why you should go out and vote. I think it's called Vote 23. And, you know, all you need to do is donate 100 Naira so somebody can be called. So it's like a call prompt and it tells you why you should go out and vote. And that's one thing. But again, just as I asked to former, how do we discourage vote buying? Because again, INEC is just, INEC has its job cut out for it. But then of course, that's why we have civil society and people like you. Where do you come in here? Continue, because civil society and the media has consistently tried, you know, especially when it comes to voter expansion. I think we have to continue to do voter expansion. I worry that a number of the political programs on TV cannot focus on politics rather than programmatic issues of elections, like, you know, foreign issues of education, of health. You know, sometimes it's one of the conversations between this party and that party and that conversation and the other one. I think we can't improve. You take the conversation in the direction of what matters. You consistent, and by you I mean us, are consistently speak about the things that matter, consistently encourage people. Because again, if all you see around you is co-co-co-co-co, you are unlikely to ask for banter when it's time to take a drink. And so if everything, all the conversations we're having, oh, this party, the intrigues of, you know, political parties and all the drama having political parties, and we're not having the conversations about the key issues of development, then even though we're telling people to vote, we're not telling them what to vote on, we're not telling them the things that should influence their decision. I think this is the next step that we need to do as civil society and the media to take focus on programmatic issues. Let the conversations focus around what do we want to see in education? What do we want to see in health? So when you're going to vote, don't, it's interesting how a lot of Nigerian politics, I mean, I know politics is a personal business really, but we need to find a way to make it about issues. And we have that responsibility because whether we like it or not, media, we're still shaping narratives. We're still talking about it. But you tell me about all of these issues. And at the end of the day, I'm saying, I'm hungry. What are you going to give me? I have beautiful ideas. I've heard everything. Yes, we want Nigeria to change, but I need money. Yeah. So honestly, I understand, I don't know where I was having this conversation and saying Nigerians are traumatized by the problems that they face. So it's not enough to simply, you don't tell your vote because of 2000 and Naira. You've got to say it, but not in, that there's some part of our communication around these things that has been a little condescending, a little, you guys don't know what you're doing. That's why you're doing it. You have to understand the trauma that people are coming from, the trauma of not being able to access health care, not being able to access COVID, not being able to eat and help them to see that you can understand that 2000 and Naira right this week now, but voting the right candidates who is focusing on these issues and these issues can make sure that you're not hungry, can make sure that you don't need to collect 2000 and Naira. Look, it's not going to be easy. It's not going to be quick either, which is why we need to do a lot and do it more consistently. I want to quickly, you know, address that I think that I might cannot focus on the fact that people are collecting their businesses because since 2003, what has turned out has been on a consistent decline. To an all time low of 34.75 million in 2019. And that has been increased PDP collection in 2019. So I think that yes, people may collect their businesses for that kind of indication that they will vote. And again, it ties in into the conversation of if we want people to vote differently, if you're not just enough to say go out and vote, you've got to give them a reason to vote differently, put something different in front of them, have different conversations, right? Let's really state this narrative. Let's start this journey. Look, I know that the change we're looking for and the turnaround we're looking for, it's not going to happen in the next four years. It's the beginning. Every election cycle presents a beginning. So it has to be consistent. It can't and that's another thing. Our conversations around important issues around development can't be around election cycles alone. It's a conversation that we have to keep up. I mean, I just go to rehab and sometimes they have to go and go and go and go again. So I understand, we have to communicate from a position of empathy, from a position of understanding that sometimes that 2,000-ira that we're thinking, we won't even buy my data, it's probably both between someone and salvation. So if someone is facing salvation and you're trying to solve that question, 2,000-ira is not the answer to your problem. How would you communicate it? If you know what anger feels like, if you know what deprivation feels like, how would you communicate it? And I think this kind of thought, this kind of deliberateness, in shaping narratives and focusing conversations, not on what's happening between the political parties and who is first carpeting and not, they're interesting, they give us the creeps. But we need to focus conversation on, this is where we need education to be, this is where we need healthcare to be. And don't just talk in, you know, a society where people cannot relate with it. What does it mean for my five-year-old who can only attend public school? What does the next election mean for me as a safety trader who has a small four in front of my house? It's in both sense that we have to communicate. GDPP girls are all well and good when we're having good conversations here. A lot of people don't understand GDPP, they don't understand some of the metrics that we talk about. And I can say that because I'm constantly facing data and answering the question of how do we communicate in a way people understand is critical. And so we can't just say go and book. We also can't just say book because we want education to be better. We want the budget education to be able to keep the same. It makes no sense to mama and you. It makes no sense to Bola, it makes no sense to Bema. Who doesn't understand? We didn't know that there was a declaration that says that there should be 15% of dedicated to education in a country budget. So how would I communicate to Bola in a way that she understands that, oh, this really concerns me. How do I communicate to pregnant women who have no access to maternal and child healthcare in family healthcare centers? So let them know that this thing you're about to make in two months is going to affect whether or not your next child is going to be born in your house or whether or not you're going to have to take a three hour tab right to accept healthcare or whether or not you're going to have to carry your own work up to the PhD to GPRA. So I think that communicating in terms of what people can understand, what people can identify with. And that's why it's critical that we work collaboratively. National collaboration is sub-national. I'm speaking here, but somebody in Okene, for instance, may not be connected to this program right now. So how do I empower the registration in Okene? How do I empower the registration in Okene? If they could do it, you could say, for instance. So that the same communication and lessons are going on, yeah. All right. Finally, back to you, Obafanga. I feel like I like has a big, big, big, big job to do. And the last time I spoke with Mr. Okoye, I asked that question because you see, I understand that political parties also have a job when it comes to voter education, being that these are the people who are asking for votes. But we never really see that happen. And Achike mentioned something about, you know, political parties being responsible and party financing and all of these things. But we don't see political parties engaging in voter education. And what we see is jamborees and campaigns and parties and musicians performing as opposed to telling people what to do. So even sometimes, people don't even know what political party to vote for at the end of the day. How much voter education is out there, aside from, you know, just having a voter education wing in INEK? Well, voter education involves a bill of stakeholders. What your station is doing is also voter education. The civil society groups do, it's also voter education. And of course, what INEK does, you've posed the question. I've actually asked political parties when I have meetings with them, how many of them, how many political parties have a voter education department or a voter education person? And then when I asked the question, they told me they had such a department or they had such a function. Which goes to the question, who stands to benefit from voters coming out to vote in my election? It is the political parties and the candidates. So we also need to see them do more. Like you say, it's not just about having rallies where literally said about issues is just to be present in the faces of people that this political party is here. They've had this rally. So you see posters and billboards and members wearing insignias political parties. But people need to know what does one political party offer that the other political party is not offering. What is one candidate offering that the other one is not offering? On the part of INEK when it comes to voter education, the voter education here within public, people know when the election is going to be held. What they need to do to participate in the election that is register to vote, collect the voter's cards and know how to vote on election day, the time for the election, the time to come out to be accredited and to vote and how they will be accredited. And also we also tell people about how people become winners in an election. And I think this is one very important voter education component that I would also call on the media and civil society to focus on. A lot of people out there just think that the near fact that they see this crowd of people at rallies of political parties, it means that that political party is popular enough and it would necessarily win the election. No, it doesn't work that way. You don't need to know what qualifies someone to be elected president, for instance, or state governor or members of the parliament at any level. So people know that it's not just enough. You can actually have rhetoric of books cast in an election and not be declared winner because it might have the spread of the votes. This is part of the voter education that I need to try to put out. And I also think that the media would really help if they also focus on this. Because people are just talking about come out vote for candidates A or candidates B and they are not telling people how that candidate could become the president of government elect or member of the parliament at any level. And I guess that's why we're having this conversation and we can't stop having these kinds of conversations. But just to follow up on what she said, because we're out of time, my guys are telling us we have to go. Where's the NOA? I mean, we have a government agency that's put together to, whose most their job is not just voter education, but educating the populist orientation. And some of the things that the INEC rec has said would also fall under the purview of the NOA. So gentlemen, before we go, what's the NOA? I think I don't know what I said, we had a similar organization that was much more effective under the Vangida administration. Because that was a military occupation. But you know, was it not MAMSA? I think it was called MAMSA. Well, that was MAMSA at the time. Yeah. But it's what NOA is supposed to, exactly, morphed into the, I mean, it's not, it's a question everybody's asking everywhere. From Lagos to Kaduna to Abuja. People are asking, where is the NOA? What are they doing? What are they supposed to do? They will tell you that they don't get it enough. Yeah, they have to tell you that there is no funding. But the issue is that people go to work every day and they have a responsibility. Can I say this? You know, because obviously people are not putting on their thinking caps. They are not thinking. Because I mean, if you look at the importance of the elections, for instance, INEC is being supported, not just by the federal, by the Nigerian government. Internationally, there are so many activities that INEC has that is being supported by international donor agencies. Because they know the importance of that. Same thing with civil society organization. NOA is a fundamental, you know, organization that is an organization that has a fundamental role in this election, in an election, you know, period. So you believe that if some people, they were thinking that they would have looked for a way to access some of these funds that some other organizations within the country are assessing. And is there? And should they wait till now? Because again, organization has to be like, if they were thinking that a lot of agencies collecting federal government subventions yearly and practically doing nothing, you know. So people are not thinking. You know, the usual excuse is, oh, there's little or no money from the federal government. But like Atruke said, you can also get these, some of these funding elsewhere. But people are not thinking, that's just sad. Maybe I should take a plackant to the headway. I want to say very quickly that, is it too late to ask Inet to collaborate with NOA? NOA is the 774th local government of this country. Is it too late to ask that there is some active collaboration, especially when it comes to voter education, with the NOA? I don't know if Inet... I don't know if Inet needs to ask them. It's their job. It's their job. Isn't it their job? It's their job. I don't have to ask them. That collaboration is actually on, I can assure you it's actually on. And then in each of them, and you said they're in all the local government areas, they also liaise with the electoral officers. They're not doing it in the most areas. In fact, I saw something said by one of the local government persons for NOA on Facebook. I drew her attention to some errors on it and she had to correct them and put them on. So we actually collaborate. Maybe I just have to mention this, that just like the other persons spoke, they may not have enough funding for all of this, but they are also trying in their ways. At a state level, I can actually confirm that they are doing some work that collaborates with us in what we are doing. All right. Well, I want to say this has been a very interesting conversation. Thank you so much. I'd like to thank the program director, Data Fight, or Boy Fanger, who is the Inet president, electoral commissioner for Adobe State. Well, for my partner, he's the head of news for Kool, who will be our aim for his broadcast journalist. And Achi Keture, who's a public affairs analyst. Thank you so much, lady and gentlemen, for being part of this conversation. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Make sure to stop here. Thank you so much. And that's the show tonight on Plus Politics. We'll be back tomorrow. Don't forget, go get your PB6, your passport to a new Nigeria. Have a good evening.