 So thank you Scott, I appreciate that. Our first presentation is titled Pedagogical Approaches to Neurodivergent Learners in STEM, presented by Sarah Sanders Gardner and Marissa Hackett of Bellevue College. Sarah is the designer and director of Bellevue's nationally recognized neurodiversity navigators program. And Marissa is the director of the Dislutter Resource Center. So I will turn it over to the two of you. Thank you. Thanks so much Eric. I am going to get right into the deck because we have a completely packed session for you. So let's do it. Why thank you for that Sarah. All right, I also want to turn on the chat so I can see it one second. I cannot see the chat. Oh there's a chat. Okay, thank you. All right, so yes this is what we are learning pedagogical approaches for neurodivergent learners. I am Sarah Sanders Gardner my pronouns are they them. Marissa. Hi I'm Marissa Hackett. She her I'm the director of the Disciple Resource Center and faculty in our disabled students navigating STEM program. Okay, here we go. We're going to talk about terminology. Is there a definition for neurodiversity. Yes, there is. And we're going to talk about models pedagogical approaches and give you some tools. So let's get going terminology around neurodiversity. So what we're going to talk about is the language that we use when we talk about disabled people and autistic people. There are two different main ways to refer. And used to be people thought that person first was the only way to go. But now we know, and the American Psychological Association told us in 2015 that both are good so let's look at this real quickly. Identity first is disabled autistic. I am disabled I am autistic and that describes me. It includes disability as part of the person and embraces that disability as one of the many intersections of identity that makes up the person. Many autistic and otherwise disabled people prefer identity first language, the blind community the deaf community or two large communities that embrace that there is also person first language. I had to say it's awkward syntax because I was an English major in college. It separates the disability from the person. And this is a reason why some people choose this language they don't want that disability to define them and they say, my disability doesn't define me it shows a desire to be distant from disability. I think that parents and professionals often prefer person first language, but so do many people with disabilities. The APA said as I said in 2015, ask the preference of the disabled person themselves. And when you're doing presentations, writing papers, etc. You should use both interchangeably. There's a couple of symbols here the one on the left is the rainbow neurodiversity infinity symbol which is meant to represent the many different types of people many different neuro types many different ways of being in the world that encompass our community. The first one is the probably more well known autism speaks puzzle piece I put a do not use sign around it, because many autistic people reject that puzzle piece and in fact research shows that there's a negative connotation between puzzle pieces and people. And so the community at large has asked people not to use that puzzle piece. So other things that we should avoid our euphemisms around disability language. So as you know euphemism is a mild or indirect expression that is substituted for something that people think is to blunt or harsh or embarrassing so people do this with the word disability quite a bit. So they say on the spectrum instead of on the autism spectrum so they can avoid that word autism. They say challenge or differently abled or people of all abilities, or special needs or disability with a capital a, or they make up words like disability and many many many other iterations. Again, disabled people get to say how they identify so the disabled person is using these terms that's fine no need to correct the person with the disability. However, non disabled people should steer clear of these words because they land on us as micro aggressions. Always defer to the preferences and language use of the person with the disability and how they identify disabled people own their identity and this is very important. If you are not a member of the community you do not get to put labels on that community. So, speaking of that let's talk about what is neurodiversity. This term was created by the autism community, and it is defined by the autism community and many other people have tried to define it but there is one definition that was created by the person who created the word. Her name is Judy Singer. She is an Australian anthropologist who was born in Hungary. I've put a link when you have the deck you can go to the links at this blog Judy describes exactly what she means by it, I can only give you a very very brief information right now. So it's came from the idea of biodiversity, and that's why I have this picture here that shows all these different creatures and plants. Biodiversity refers to every living thing plants bacteria animals humans and sometimes it's in a particular reason or biosystem but sometimes it just refers to all living creatures, the term neurodiversity comes from that term biodiversity, and is an expression that comes from intersectionality as well as one of the many variabilities that describe people. It's the virtually infinite neurocognitive variability within Earth's human population. So when you use the term neurodiverse, you are referring to all people. You are not referring to disabled people you're referring to all people. It's a very important part of the neurodiversity movement that everyone has a different way of thinking there is not one way and one wrong way or one different way. Everyone is neurodiverse. The word neurodivergent was also coined from the autism community by a multiply neurodivergent person living in the United States, her name, their name is Cassian Asamasu. And this is to signify an individual whose brain functions in ways that divert significantly from dominant societal standards, very different words neurodiversity is a social movement neurodivergent refers to a person. And along with that term came the term neurotypical. So, these are the definitions. This is where you can learn more about them. As Cheryl mentioned, there are many things that fall under this neurodivergent umbrella I'm not going to go through them again because I got to get through my time here. So here's a quote from Judy Singer neurodiversity is a property of the human population of Earth. While neurodiversity itself is just an indisputable fact about the planet. So neurodiversity movement is something else again, it's built on the idea that just as conserving biodiversity is necessary for a sustainable flourishing planet. So respecting neurodiversity is necessary for a sustainable flourishing human society. So we need all people, not just some people. We're going to take it away. Thanks Sarah. I'm going to talk a little bit about the models of disability which came from disabled communities in the 1980s originally and have been used in disability studies programs for a long time to start out with the moral model and I'm going to start with the problem of disability. I'm not saying disability is problem. It's not disabilities rad. But there is like this idea in society that disability has a social problem associated with it. So the problem associated with disability when you're coming from the moral model of disability is this idea that there is a moral failing in your bloodline from your ancestors from your family line from your parent, somewhere in there. And this is typically considered an older model, but it actually does show up currently. So anytime someone is trying to pray away a disability, that is them enacting the moral model. So thinking around when people said that autism was caused by quote refrigerator mothers or the mother being too cold to the child that was the moral model. Thankfully that is pretty much kind of tapered out at this point. And then things like telling chronically oh people have you tried yoga is also the moral model where there's some sort of moral failing with the disabled person. And the medical model is our kind of typically most commonly used model in the current US society where the problem with the disability is centered on the individual person with the idea that the medical industrial complex or the medical system is what can fix the disability, and that that individual person needs to be fixed by medicine or some other medical medical thing. So our societal solution is to fix a person through the medical model so still focuses on this idea of fixing disability and doesn't focus on disability as a normal part of our human diversity. So the medical model also reinforces cultural constraints around what is a typical or right way of being in the world, the right way to move your body the right way to think the right way to be in general the right way to have feelings or emotions. So then this brings us to the social model, the social model focuses from not on the individual but on society and focuses the problem of societal, the societal problem of disability on how we can fix our built environment or culture are ways of teaching and learning to change the environment rather than change the individual person. So, in the social model, we would say instead of a deaf person can't go to the movies because they are deaf we would say provide closed captions so this is where we enter into accessibility accommodations and universal design to fix society rather than trying to fix the person. And I, we're going to play just a couple minutes of this video. We have the sound turned on for videos. I'm just going to look at the chat real quick, while Sarah is sharing the video because there's some cool things happening in the chat to neurotypical isn't a bad word but it makes neurotypical people feel uncomfortable to confront their privilege totally. And then Jade said, sort of the same way cis people get grumpy when we say cisgender in conversations about gender yep totally cisgender is not a bad word and either is neurotypical it just means fit into the norm that society wants you to fit into. So if you and I go to a building and there's no ramp. Typically people think the problem is that we use wheelchairs where social model of disability would say the problem is that the building is not accessible and it doesn't seem like a radical concept but it changes the fundamental way we think about disability and the work that we need to do to include people with disabilities. People often don't understand ability to be within this kind of context and access to adaptive devices and where we are located economically. When I have my access needs met I'm functionally not disabled but when places have stairs and everything is built for people that stand so I can't see anything and it's a really dark environment so I can't see anything because as you get older your vision changes. So now I need a lot of light to see things in an environment like that of course I'm disabled. I really like separating out impairment from disability so impairment as you know like physical or neurological manifestation like what's real I have a physical impairment and then disability is like what society creates as barriers because of the impairment. So like as you're saying if we're in a place where my access needs are getting met then my impairment isn't so significant but when it's not because society doesn't want to then that's a problem. So I think it's important to really think about disability and the context of what is disabling the environment. The last building I worked in it was really cool because it was universally designed so all the doors had push buttons or they were like magically open you know as you walk up or everything is like automatically at my height. And in that place I didn't need a lot of accommodations but then in an environment where it's not universally accessible where people with disabilities and parents and all types of folks weren't thought of in the design process that's when there's problems. I'm not saying like it's easy to live with an impairment it's not easy to live you know when you have like four kids it's not easy to live when it's like 20 degrees outside. You know for those of us in the Bay Area like 55 is freezing but you know I mean there are times when it's just not convenient to have a body but that's not what oppresses us. What oppresses us is living in a system which disregards us is violent for us you know essentially wants to subjugate our bodies or kill us. That's oppressive my body doesn't oppress me my body my body's fine. We can pause there. Okay, so that was Stacy Melbourne Park who was an amazing disability justice activist out of the Bay Area, who unfortunately passed away a couple of years ago. And then Patty burn who I'm going to talk about now. So potty burn along with other disabled queer and trans people of color, created the disability justice movement and model with these 10 principles of disability justice so. Since the models were created in the 80s and are still really important, it's also important to kind of fast forward up to where we are now and think about moving beyond the social model and into disability justice social model later really good ground work for disability justice. The 10 principles of disability justice are intersectionality leadership of those most impacted anti capitalist politic commitment to cross movement organizing recognizing fullness sustainability commitment to cross disability. Sorry, the solidarity interdependence collective access and collective liberation. I'm going to talk a little bit more about intersectionality but I encourage you all to check out the website that talks about the principles of disability justice more in depth. patty is an amazing activist and super important to learn from. So this is a quote from patty burn. The first a primary principle of disability justice is intersectionality. We know that each person has multiple community identifications and then each identity can be a site of privilege or oppression. The full terms of oppression shift depending upon the characteristics of any given institutional or interpersonal interaction, the very understanding of disability experience itself being shaped by race gender class gender expression historical moment relationship to colonization and more. So we're going to skip this video but if you have a chance to take a look at it, it's, it's great, but it's best in its entirety so we're going to move forward in our short amount of time. So, basically, like with intersectionality we want to be thinking about the role of power and privilege in any individual persons intersections of identities and especially in our own when we are working with neurodivergent and disabled folks. So the role of intersectionalities and lived realities determine access to resources, people who are perceived to be in privileged groups are rewarded for their group memberships while others are disenfranchised and subject to regulation and violence. And then that that role of intersectionality so someone may be perceived as having one specific identity because that's the most visible identity that they have. There are many additional identities that you are not perceiving or identifying just by looking at or first interaction with someone you can go the next slide so I think I'm talking about it. So just something to think about when we're thinking about like what we see when we're interacting with students and how to get to what else might be going on for that student what other oppressions they might be experiencing that we're not. We're not aware of in a first interaction or in our first perception of someone so thinking about the student holistically age, disability, religion, ethnicity, social class sexual orientation, Indigenous backgrounds, national origin gender there are other identities as well so just to be thinking about both how your identities play into what you're doing as well as what's going on for students when you're thinking about their identities. And then we have these three pictures here, a transgender student, a student of color with a graduation gown and they're colorful. I don't know what that's called scarf on and then a female presenting student and they're all very different and people may have certain thoughts about them when they see them and think they know them but they don't necessarily. We're going to move on to pedagogical approaches and we're going to look back at biodiversity, when a flower doesn't bloom you fix the environment in which it grows not the flower. This is a quote by Alexander then hey her. Don't know how to pronounce his last name apologies Alexander, but we want to think about that biodiversity approach. This is in regards to neurodiversity which is all the students in your classes, not only the neurodivergent ones. So let's take a look. The first thing I want to talk about is cultural expectations and I'm going to use Edward T halls cultural iceberg as a model to start with. This is to help us understand that not everyone is communicating and behaving and understanding communication and behavior the same way. So, Edward T hall was a cultural anthropologist who specialized in nonverbal communication and he said when we think about culture we usually think about the surface culture, food, music, literature, language, but what really makes up a culture are these deep culture areas that a person has to live in the culture and learn through nonverbal observation. These are not didactically taught to people nor really can they be because they're all flexible within that culture and then in other cultures. So, things like communication styles and rules, facial expressions, I contact conversational patterns handling displaying emotions tone of voice notions of courtesy and manners concepts of self time and fairness attitudes towards work and authority approaches to religion decision making problem solving. So there are a lot of cultural conflicts in all of these areas certainly between cultures we all learned that back in Star Trek the original generation. But there are also potential for conflicts between people with nonverbal learning disabilities which includes all autistic people and many other people. So I applied this concept I was very excited because these are the areas where we get in trouble all the time, but so do lots of other people because people grow up differently people absorb these concepts differently and they have different ideas around them. So if you think about. Well, I guess I'm going to share an example first and then I'll talk about that. So here's an example from my life. In my own house on the neighborhood. We were allowed kids were allowed to jump on the sofa and swear. And another house a couple doors down you were not allowed to do that or you'd get in a lot of trouble. So, there are lots of different things where I would get in a lot of trouble. And so my parents decided I needed to learn some social skills so they got someone to start teaching me social skills. What do you think put it in the chat unmute yourself shout it out what do you think they taught me in social skills class about jumping on the sofa and swearing. Never do it, never jump on the sofa and swear exactly. So see this nice little person sitting on the sofa all nice and calm. What did the other kids think about me after that. I got some names stuck up goody two shoes teachers pet. Don't play with Sarah Sarah is going to tell us the right way to do things. Right, exactly. So I'm ever met an awkward autistic kid. They got awkward by themselves they got awkward by learning social skills. So, there is a better way. We need to understand that cultural rules are flexible. And what someone with a non verbal learning disability cannot do is see how these flex, we can't follow that. We don't see it. We don't notice it. We will never be able to see it. We need to learn is self advocacy. Someone needed to tell me oh Sarah you just don't know when it's okay to do it and when it isn't the other kids can see it you can't that's okay that's just how you are. Ask the other kids. Is this a house where we can jump on the sofa and swear, or will you tell me when the parents are coming so I don't get in trouble. That would have been fine. I could have had friends, but no. That is a danger of social skills classes these rules are flexible if you think about it. These rules are flexible in your friend groups they're flexible and family groups are flexible and work teams are flexible and corporations or institutions they're flexible and cities and states and countries are flexible everywhere. A typical person can flex with them. A person with neurodivergence often cannot. So, you have some tools as faculty as staff as people who interact with neurodivergent people. First of all, if someone is communicating or or behaving in a way that is different from your cultural expectations in any of these areas. Your first tool is most respectful interpretation or as my students say think the best of them. So think, why would a reasonable kind person be doing or saying this, rather than oh that's so rude. Then use a tool called manager stories. So, um, if you still are telling yourself a story about why the person is doing it. Ask a question. Are you angry with me it seems like maybe you're angry. Could you say what you're doing what what you said again I'm not sure I understood it. That, by the way, works really well if someone is purposely being mean to you to say could you repeat that. Repeat and reword your own statements. So say I'm not sure what I said came across clearly let me try to say it again. Also own your boundaries. If someone's standing too close to you for example you don't need to teach them about personal space simply say I need a little more space I'm going to move over here. You also don't need to teach them how to handle their emotions if you're triggered by someone ramping up or getting loud, you can simply say, I'm going to go get a drink of water I'll be back in a few minutes you don't need to add when you've come down. Right, you just need to take care of your own self, and then also teach self advocacy. So this is everything included in nonverbal communication, facial expressions body language, I gaze appearance, how we use our sense of humor. The important thing to note with these things is research has shown, not only do we not understand you, you don't understand us in these situations you may think we're angry when we're not. You may not understand our sense of humor you may not understand if a student is slumping down like this it may be because they have low body tone not because they're not interested. This also includes unspoken implied or hidden meaning within spoken communication so we need to read between the lines not saying what you mean because you want to be kind. Brene Brown says clear is kind unclear is unkind. You might want to change all of your communication if you don't want to but if someone isn't understanding what you're saying, add some more direct communication to it. This varies between cultures and within cultures, but up to 85% of our communication can be nonverbal. And here we are back to Marisa. I'm going to briefly talk about universal design but I think we've got a presentation coming up that's going to go much more in depth so generally universal design is the idea that we want to set things up for everybody and mind in mind. So, when we're talking about physical space that's ramps etc. But when we're talking about learning space you go to the next slide. Can you describe the picture for a second. Oh yeah the picture that we have up is a brick building with a ramped walkway heading up to it with some folks walking and one person pushing a wield suitcase another person person pushing a wield barrel of sorts. There's a space where anyone could propel up depending on what mode they're using. Okay, so when we're talking about universal design for learning. The general premise is that we want to be engaging students in multiple ways, presenting information in multiple ways including visual written and pictures and auditory. Multiple ways of expression or assessment for everything. And we've got a wheel that says engage express and present information as the three main areas that you want to focus on providing multiple options for. Okay, and now another tool that you can use is tilt transparency and learning and teaching and I am super excited about this as a brand new faculty because I have struggled with how do I make assignments really clear for students. And this is a really great way to do that there are some great examples you can easily look them up. But the general premise is providing transparent information to students on the purpose task and criteria and an assignment or activity. And there are transparent assignment templates online. So what does a well done assignment look like with a specific grading rubric so that the students know how to get full points if they want that and they can also choose to not get full points if they want to hit a seat so. That is really helpful and it looks like Natalie has a comment on it too and people are putting links in the chat. Excellent. Okay, and then another great tool to use is both structure. So making sure that you're providing structure so that students understand what's going to happen when it's going to happen, what the expectations for them are. It supports students in the understanding of why it's important to work through assignments regularly so the understanding of how things build on each other. Why you're doing one assignment before another, the amount of time and energy that they're putting into that the amount of time and energy you're putting into it and then the classmates time and energy so everything is just very clearly laid out. And then it's also important to provide flexibility so allowing for late work without penalty so providing guidelines for one thing should be turned in to be scaffolded and built on upon each other, but allowing exceptions for that because there are always situations that students are going to run into their neurodivergent students where they may need more time to work on something something may come up. Life wise there may be something in another class it's more urgent to do and believing students when they have some sort of situation where they need flexibility right so instead of assuming everyone's giving a dog ate my homework reason understanding that students have a certain amount of things going on in their lives and we don't always know what those things are so believing what they're telling us. And I just want to add a little bit to this page. And that is that many faculty have moved away from traditional grading structures and move to giving one point for every assignment, or just a complete for the assignment. And also allowing students to choose their grade at the beginning of the quarter which indicates how many of the assignments from each category they're going to complete or to what level they're going to complete them. So these are all different ways to allow that flexibility as well. And other practices so making sure that you're using the students name and pronoun and checking to make sure you're using the students name that they actually go by not just going by a roster that might be outdated says lots of ways to do this checking a zoom name if you're on zoom asking students to tell you if they have a preferred name. So at the beginning of the quarter, asking students their pronouns. Super important and the image that we have up is a various different students with different pronouns on their rainbow colored shirts just great. Some students have some, some of the figures have lighter skin some have darker skin there's someone with a head rapper or turban. Someone with an afro. So just an example that any different student could use a pronoun that you may not be expecting it does not matter what the student looks like to you or how you're perceiving them, you have to ask someone to know what it is. And then with students one on one so that one on one connection to make sure that you're building a strong relationship with them at the beginning. And then monitoring students progress and intervening when students are not completing things, not showing up for class, etc. Many campuses have a place to send an early alert or report if a student is having a specific struggle so that doesn't have to be all you as faculty in supporting but the monitoring progress is really important because no one else is going to know what's going on with the student. Without that. Without that and then I see that Sarah put in the chat that you don't need to do around Robin for pronouns where students are saying it out loud so you can ask the question in a more privately like have students turn it in on a four class survey or a first class in class assignment or something in your online learning system where they can indicate privately what they want used that can call out students who are trans and may not be out or comfortable sharing and it can be uncomfortable for some students to do that round Robin in class situation. Okay, now we're going to the tools, we have a few more minutes to go. So we're going to talk about language and stress. And you have we've all been in this situation where we have had a page to read that is just a page a wall of text. And we've then also been in a situation where we have a page to read that has white space and pictures and bullet points. I know which one I would rather read. So the first one is now has a new word in the dictionary right TLDR too long didn't read. So we're going to talk about how to support your students all your students in being able to access the language and your assignments and your emails and everything that you do this is also for website use. It's plain language, it's does not mean to use a certain level of vocabulary it's written to your audience so whoever your audience is if they're college students you should be using college level language, but it is a communication. That's wording structure and design are so clear that the intended users can readily find what they need understand it and use it, rather than hiding what we mean within all the flowery words like people usually do. So, here's an example. Before, and this is a typical thing that we see in emails especially written in the third person the student applicant should be sure to be on time submit an official copy of his or her transcript never say that the word they is very appropriate now. This is a recommendation from professors a statement of financial need a short biographical statement to our grants office by April 15. This is like a math problem to me right I have to circle everything I have to do check them off in the little sentences. Afterwards, this is plain language to apply written right to the person, here's what you need to do the deadline is right up front. Here's your checklist, I would probably even put little checkboxes right, and then where to send it. I don't put more but I ran out of space on my page. So, plain language, much more accessible to all people. And then also, and you can learn a lot more about that at the link that I put underneath the flowers on that page also on our last page. Also, be sure to use your colleges learning management system I believe the UW also uses canvas, which is what we use. Putting your materials into weekly modules is very helpful for students they can see what they have to do each week. If you don't have CD labs already activated ask your college ask your e learning department about CD labs it makes it helps you organize, but it also makes everything accessible to students as well. And so, if you want to put how you're using canvas in the chat to support other people who are here. That would be super helpful I think. So that other people can see, I put everything in the weekly thing I open up the week, two weeks ahead of time so students have a whole week to look through it some students like to organize themselves ahead of time and maybe even work ahead of time when they have are on a good streak right. So, it kind of just depends on how that person manages their disability. Okay, so then the last thing we want to talk about. Yeah, thank you Jade. Yes, I wish we had that at our college. The last thing we want to talk about is make sure that you are taking care of your own self, and also using community care, not just self care. So we want to look at you putting on your mask first and so it might be a beautiful mask like this. So, think about burnout and demoralization they are two different things, and then making sure that you're taking breaks we work a lot. And so you want to make sure. Oh, that's great, Diane. You should contact us about that. I'm going to put on my oxygen mask first. This is a picture of the early days when we used to wear cloth masks. But really, it can be, you know, that that phrase used to refer to putting on your own oxygen mask first right in the airplane. But we cannot support our students we cannot support our friends we cannot support anybody if we're not first taking care of our own selves and our friends, our whole community, reaching out for support, not just like, as Marissa mentioned doing yoga, etc, you can't deep breathe your way out of a pandemic you cannot stretch your way out of terrible class sizes. You can't individual behavior your way out of structural problems right this it takes a community. It takes being in support of others and really relying on other people and supporting them so that whole interdependence piece that we've talked about. And these are our discussion questions so you're going to go to discussion groups in about seven minutes but I'm going to stop sharing now I'm going to share the there's our resources page. Let's discuss what would you like to start doing based on what you've learned today, what would you like to stop doing that maybe is getting in the way of accessibility for neurodivergent students and all students. And what are you already doing that's working well and then what aha moments will inform your teaching going forward. So I'm going to stop share. We've got some great things in the discussion here. Every task has a note about seeking support and the word finding support at the bottom of the page that's fantastic. Yeah I love that. In canvas I have tasks that are not assignments yes like readings I add those to the task to do list as well yes that's a really great thing to do. Yes. Three lessons a week typical time. Yes, letting students know how long it will take to complete something is a really helpful thing. How long a video is how long it might take to read something that you've assigned a range of estimates etc. What else did I want to say around that. Yes using tilt along with these things is super helpful. Making sure your assignments are showing up on the canvas calendar is also really helpful. Talking to your students at the beginning about how to use canvas. See what else we have here. And then also making sure that you're putting links in all your assignments to other material that they need to do that assignment. So not just saying go find the blah blah blah. You can do it so they can do it. Thank you Kayla for putting that in there. I appreciate that. Look at you with your little check marks and everything. That is so awesome. Thanks to Tammy for that one. Hey, this is Tammy I would kudos you for restating what's in chat because if some of us need to get up and walk around. So we're on audio but we're not being able to keep up with chat it's nice when people restate what's being said so thank you. Anything with a due date comes up on the to do list and you can add to the to do list anything that doesn't already have a due date yeah that's why the to do list is really important to put a reading as a as a student to do. I found that telling students how long things take often causes anxiety. Okay, Brandon. That's an interesting point. Yes, it would take more time to complete things with dyslexia Marissa and I had this conversation because I said we should put how long it takes to read this and she's like no it might take someone twice as long. So, maybe thinking about putting that range and then saying your mileage may vary, or please take into account processing speeds or different things. One thing I will say Brandon is I try not to assign things that are going to take longer than 15 minutes. So, hopefully that's not causing anxiety hopefully that's relieving anxiety I'm not going to ever assign something that takes an hour. Yes redundancy of links is very important to tell you yes, all the time just link every darn thing. I use canvas at Oregon Coast Community College sort material by weekly modules related discussion forums reading assignment due day yep, and I use text headers to say like what category the things are in. When I use canvas my announcements were all interlinked so from email they get the to do list. Oh, can you do that. Absolutely it's an internal link in that in that hyper description block. If you go to links, you can select internal link or external link and then you'll get a list on the side. And then you can just say yes I want this, and now I want this to go here I want this to go here I want this to go here, my students never clicked around. No, I was just like you will get. No, this is organized well but one of you will feel like your loss so just select it all from your email. Oh my gosh, that's so great. Would you like me to grab like a, a, a instruction alright I'll be right back. Thank you so much jade yay you've helped many people because we'll take this back to our college to not to assume how long things take students are creating unreasonable expectations. Right. Don't tell us the training will take x hours and then wonder why it took three times as long yet true. I agree Natalia regarding nonverbal cues is it important to describe what you were questioning. Instead of you seem really upset say when you I think. For clarification I teach math. I assume it will take my students probably three times as long as me to complete election, the lesson probably five to six times long to complete homework. Yeah, so for some of these longer assignments I would not put up how long I think it's going to take someone. I'm talking about if I put if I'm putting up like a 10 minute reading assignment. Thank you so much jade that is fantastic. I'm going to put up a 10 minute reading assignment, or a 15 minute video I'm going to tell them how long those things are. But if I've got a whole, you know, long thing they've got a read a chapter in a book I'm not going to tell them how long I think it's going to take them to read that chapter. I'm not going to tell them how long I think it's going to take them to do their math assignments. I may talk to them about starting to estimate their own speed so they can plan their time. I'm teaching a freshman course or later in the, in the year but as a suggestion, I walk students through creating their own task lists for the week estimate time they think it will take yeah exactly. I'm with some cues for me then assigned task blocks. I provide blank weekly templates yeah we do that in our program quizzes exams open book with no time limit yeah that's great. Yes. Yeah for sure. Andy and Jan. When you're talking about a student who is looking like they are having a hard time in your class describing what you saw for sure. We are done with our time so we're going to let you go to your discussion groups and thank you so much for having us. Right, thank you so much Sarah and Marissa appreciate all of that. I think, you know, we could do a whole day on this topic.