 Welcome back. It's still a breakfast and plus TV Africa quickly to a first conversation this morning the national president of the National Association of Resident Doctors Nigeria's Doctors resident doctors Union dr. Innocent or G has revealed that the night Nigeria has lost about 2,800 resident doctors over a period of two years now He said that the number does not include consultants and other doctors of course because we're looking at resident doctors But you're speaking at a press conference at the end of a three-day national executive council meeting of the N.A.R.D In the aqua boom say capital we own Saturday With a theme improved welfare of healthcare workers a panacea for brain drain I'm sure it tells us a bit of thesis of what his a statement was The president of the N.A.R.D Disclosed that from a study if the organization had conducted in September 2022 a total of 800 resident doctors had traveled out of the country from January to August of that year which implied that a 100 resident doctors leave Nigeria every single month January February March April May June July August eight months They had 800 doctors leaving now This is the latest statistic in the from the years long phenomenon of brain drain in Nigeria's health system We're here to talk about this again Dr. Tui, member Wando joins us as a public health expert his joining us via zoom in Lagos doctor member Wando Good morning to you and thank you very much for your time Good morning. Thank you for having me. All right doctor. Personally. I'm really tired of talking about this You know because we keep talking about brain drain They're leaving and I think more doctors are going to leave in the coming months If if if nothing drastic is done I do agree with me and what I thought so what the N.A.R.D Is same with their study being done from January to August 2022 Yeah, thank you. We've been at the crisis period for a long time We're actually going to a grind now. It is that we may go to a point where indeed We will not have medical people walking in our hospitals Because if you look at it, well, we have a Graduate decrease the number in the ability to produce doctors and those and ability to retain them. Okay Let me capture this since 1963 with Nigeria produce 93,000 doctors Out of that I see a thousand doctors. How many we have left 24,000 so you can imagine if you have ten four thousand doctors Now our capacity to produce also is compromised. How do I make compromise in the sense that? Because we have done is to produce about three thousand doctors Every blessed year now the number is falling strike push of the university's lack of interest in medical and then even consistent egress or To different countries And then I'm like Unlike you put it for six months 800 of 30 and during these six months Strikes strike strike. So we are getting to that point where we may have to end up without having Doctors working on system. It's a very pathetic situation Our government don't even give care. They don't give a damn about Your situation. They don't care. They don't make you don't give anything about this Well, I like you to respond to I mean the issue of brain drain. There's been a lot of thoughts Comments reactions and one of you a bio me right here in Lagos has You know mentioned he's he's put out his thoughts and he said that one of the things that needed to be done To address brain drain was that It's important to ensure that students admitted to study study held related courses where those bonding with desires So I like to ask you is bonding Desire I mean passion it will be the word it's passion enough you know for Or a criteria for solving The brain drain issue that we're faced with You can't be a solution of your of a severe problem like that on emotion I think it will be pretty wrong for you to wake up and say, you know Passion and emotion, you know, let me tell you if you want to solve the challenge of brain drain or even inadequate health workforce um in the nation It is not The solution does not reside in health system alone Because education Is part of it. You have to you know, be able to attract sufficient number of people to do science sufficient number of them to do To study medicine and then provide capacity to train those doctors. That is education um When they after being educated you have to find out how to um employ them and raise them appropriately That is municipal. You have to find the way to finance them. That is usually of finance So you have to get a kind of um complete link Are the health That will be able to go completely within those ministry and health system Those To find a professional place for them to learn and then at the same time you have to enumerate them You have to provide job for them So that is the concept of trying to solve the problem. You cannot just work and Are you don't are your university does not have the capacity to do that would you so for me it's not just um When we like short course, you know Like mayfire fighter So You have a sustainable health care system and push brain drain if you When like in a grind no money Uh, no fuel no lights Who want to stay in this concentration? A lot of push factors happening in our environment that we're not addressing. So but um What's the This You know a kind of A kind of critical thinking it requires to Look away from the common And then put us together For the health system For Um number of health workers. So yes, we're going for a grind. You won't see anybody nobody will come away Because you are doing so many years six seven years Then that's enough for years. Who's going to put the office on yes I was like I don't like to to study the course where the other day you will be paid. Look at what is happening Obviously that's not enough about 30 months Doctor's fees have not been paid Um, you know 10 months 85 months on those three months These are things that are concerning That you work, you'll not get salary So so is a lot of issue. It's a lot of issue Doc, uh, we we've talked about this many times, you know over the fear a few years Um, I mean, I know I know some doctors who Didn't even need to have a job to leave some left Um, these are very promising. I know I'm very promising You know medical doctor was a resident doctor and had moved on to the next level Um, I spoke to him some time who found that he had left, you know to canada Um, and he was just You know, he hadn't gotten a work permit or was not qualified to work in canadas. He was just, you know, assisting a doctor and working under him So, you know, it seems that the doctors who are really qualified here are prepared to go abroad to even do some so-called Millial things as far as their the qualifications are concerned I think he paints a picture of the situation now should Nigeria be placing a moratorium on Doctors who are trained with government subsidies Relocating to other countries after their training I think let's just debunk that in fact, um anybody that mentioned subsidy In training of doctors is being clever by health What is subsidy training of doctors involve one those teachers rights and classroom But also involve a lot of things you have to buy your books your equipments your feeding Accommodation don't soon are not subsidized by anybody and now when you're talking about the subsidy the same comments will provide that kind of services for lawyers for accountants for journalists in the universities, right? So what where the subsidy for doctors? But doc yeah The resident doctors themselves have gone on protests a number of times and because of of the lack of um funding for their Satutory training the training there's was to embark on You know the courses they're meant to embark on lack of government funding for rate and government to call them for a meeting And release money. Also these resident doctors are trained in public Um teaching hospitals free of charge So wait hold on hold on and government government pays the The the professors in these teaching hospitals government buys the facilities there. They don't pay for it And no doc is it those governments those professors are healing people They are doing job. They're working. You know, why would government you see the the the No, but are you saying the government doesn't doesn't contribute in any way to the training of doctors in nigeria? Is that what you're saying, sir? Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Let me clarify. You get it very clear now You know in 2017 um Government enacted the nigeria resident doctors training arts whereby government supposed to sponsor four Of the update courses just four of the update courses during the four years residency training program Government is not the government is not doing that. It became a an issue And then if it's a sponsor for of the of the update courses the update courses are so plenty Okay, the fact that government sponsored for does that make does that mean that government is is is subsidizing them If you want to subsidize let's assume that that you now said, okay each of resident doctor I'm going to give you five million that is there you talk you quantify the subsidy or everybody nigeria law school uh Everything You have some support from government. All the officials Police officers are getting support from government. I even subsidize even when they're still getting out of money You know Uh Okay, but doc we have a bit of a situation with your connection Yeah, doc can you hear me, please Okay Okay, we have a bit of a network interruption So maybe you can just make the last point you made before we move on to our next question I I said listen doctors are not getting subsidized politicians They are virtually running on our own taxes. See they get jumbo pay. Nobody's complaining about that All other professionals get training get the same training from lecturers and nobody's seeing that to be subsidized So why why singularly doctors? That's the question So let's let's leave that one doesn't believe that Anyway But the federal government has also uh made Pledge if you like to say your request asking doctors and you know nurses and every medical expert to You know back with them as you're putting out measures to ensure that everything is in place I mean, so at this point, would it be fair for for you to say that, you know, this doctor should um You know just consider because we're getting to a point. We're not going to have doctors. So is it fair for doctors now those who are still in Nigeria and who are having plans to move uh to You know, um be patriotic that would be the question the word Now, um We didn't start like this Let's be fair. Um I Okay You know, okay, look first performance the capacity to train I believe the science is constrained Okay Even getting job after training is challenged So in reality It was in that is about the government, you know, actually messed up all the states Okay So one way we're looking for is for government to return run and figure out what to what they need to do People who always stay with the country and hold on to their job when those conditions are I'm pretty right. Okay. Look at it. If you have option, we want to see any country where you cannot even get access your money Let's face it You want to say in the country where you can advance your profession You want to say where you don't have good men to do the work Provide all those things and satisfy this thing and if you want to subsidize raise good money I'm a participant many ways I am a medical doctor but that I studied medicine. So I Know So I know what I'm talking about exactly So I know what it means that in my own input And this is what we're saying that we should remove it. If you know that your health is linked to your wealth Then You know to resolve that you need to do something more drastic. You can't just the pepper your pepper I am black maybe that's what the way to do the work The good of health workforce is there. We're having, you know, Africa is having like, you know Steele discharging of the world And they're having about three percent of the All right, doc we We apologize. The network has been not too charitable, but I think your point has been made Wish we had more time with you But it it remains clear. I think then I already have said Exactly what needs to be done the welfare of doctors needs to be taken very seriously So that they remain in the country. I'll add to that also mercy The situation as far as the facilities and then the state of the public health facilities in Nigeria are concerned But we'll leave it at that right now because we have to take a break And where we tell we have a final conversation this morning We'll definitely look at the issue of electricity tariff the spinning crease and the fact that Nigerians have decried it. They described this as unfair and there's no justification for that increase. Please stay with us