 and welcome to Cooper Union, what's happening with human rights around the world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii and Moana, New York. I'm your host, Joshua Cooper. And the title of today's episode is unique undertakings for rights in Ukraine, innovative individual initiatives and international law institutions. I'm so excited today to be having Maharita Tarasova from the project coordinator from the Ukrainian Helsinki Human Rights Union joining me today. Maharita, thank you for appearing and sharing information from what's happening on the ground. Thank you for inviting me. Today we're entering the 27 day of the Russian invasion, but the United Ukrainian resistance is defying all odds. Can you share with us some of your observations on the ground of what's happening today? Yeah, of course, unfortunately, Russia is doing what it normally does with conflict which it is involved. Like they can't see cities, like big cities like Kharkiv, Kiev and others. So actually they didn't see any single city except for here, Sonets and southern part of Ukraine. So what they try to do right now is actually terrorize the population. They shell heavily peaceful cities like Mariupol, Kharkiv and other cities. They try to organize some sort of occupation power on the occupied cities. But the thing is that people don't want to live in Russia. They resist. We have constant demonstration in here, Sonberdiansk in Mariupol cities. There are all cities on the southern part near Crimea that were occupied relatively quickly on like first week of the war. And they constantly protest. Unfortunately, Russian troops use violence and against them we have almost 400 people are reported to be arrested by Russian troops and they were also shooting yesterday. So they open fire on people and people don't stop. They keep protesting. They just hide, for example, if something like this starts but then come back, they prevent to, like when Russia tries to put Russian flag on our administration. So people just don't agree. They remove it and then place a Ukrainian flag. So, yes. And you probably heard about Mariupol. It's the most devastating situation right now there. So the city is encircled and Russia doesn't allow humanitarian convoys there. They don't allow people to evacuate. They don't allow anything. So people are running out of food, of water, of everything. So they don't have electricity. They don't have connection people. They're relatives. They don't know what's going on there. So they don't have connection with people. People are constantly on bomb shelters. They give birth there. They feed their children there. They die there. So people can't be even buried normally. I mean, people just, you know, like they buried on the, like in the city. I mean, like they just find a place where the person can be buried. And this, you know, like possibly funerals, let's say. So it's devastating. Russia is, you know, like they just trying to punish people so they don't, you know, like don't give up. They still resist. They can't see the city of course because we have our army that protect this city and nobody is going to, you know, like just give up. And like, I don't know to, you know, to agree with some, I don't know, some Russian conditions. So people resist and Russia is using the most, you know, like most devastating tools, the most devastating weapon to just to kill as much people as possible. So they shall, you know, just buildings, residential buildings, they say hospitals, they shell everything. You might probably seen the, this theater that was used actually people took shelter in this, in the basement of theater. And it was the writings on the ground. It says children in, in Russian. And it was bombed. Luckily people like were able to, I don't, we don't know the exact number of people to survive, but a lot of them survived because the basement was good enough and they hide there. So, yeah, the situation is, you know, it's like this, the most of the time, they try to advance. I mean, they wanted to, of course they, and they still want to have Kiev, they still want to have Harkiv and other big cities. But the, the situation is that, you know, Kiev and other cities like their large cities, I mean, we have like four million people live in Kiev. It's, it's, it's large city. I mean, we have a large country. It's the, the, the second largest in Europe. So, and we have also, you know, like fields, mountains and forests and swamps and everything. So it's not that easy, you know, it's not like to just enter the country and go. So it's, it's, it's not like that. And yet they try to, to see the cities, but of course they can't because we have very much experienced armed forces because it's been actually eight years. We, we are at war at Russia. So they underestimated, of course, our armed forces and our people who don't want to live in Russia at all. So yeah, and they, of course they, they just punish people for, for resisting. No, we, we thank you for your bravery on the ground. And can you share with us some of the activities that your NGO is doing during this war and how you plan on using that information and knowledge, hopefully during peace soon, if the negotiations are able to move forward. What do NGOs do and, and why is it so important in the middle of such a horrible conflict? Yeah, yeah, you know, like NGOs have been very much united since the occupation of Crimea, since the invasion of Donbass. So we like have this very much strong organization activists who work passionately and constantly on documentation. We document everything and every single case will be, you know, like will be documented, information will be collected. We have witnesses, we have photos, videos and everything. So we look forward to, to see Russia, you know, in, in, in every, like, you know, possible institutions. And organization, of course, have developed cooperation with international criminal court, with European Human Rights Court and other institution. So we have several, you know, tracks, our diplomats and also human rights organization work together to see Russia in different institution. And you probably know about the most recent decision of UN International Court of Justice that warned Russia to stop all this action, you know, like military operation and everything. So we collect everything. We also consult people, victims who, for example, lost their houses or the, like, have relatives who got missed. So we also have this part of work to help these people and it also helped us to collect information about the war crimes. And we also, like, launched the coalition of organization who now work together to, again, to document crime, war crimes cases and to cooperate with institution. The several mechanisms were, like, introduced to work on Ukraine and, you know, like on what's happening in Ukraine. It's, of course, it's international criminal court who that already agreed to, you know, like to work on case of in Ukraine, but also it's OSCE, Moscow, like so-called Moscow mechanism to also to collect the information about the human rights violation and also UN monitoring mission who is, again, has been working in Ukraine since 2014. So it's, you know, like, it's actually, a lot of work is being done right now. And of course, it's not like something we know, like we can, like, influence the flow of war and something, but we, of course, we keep all this information. We document everything and Russia will pay for what it's doing. No, thank you. And we know the most obvious crime is called aggression. That's invading another country and that's what Russia has done. One of the other aspects of the ICC you shared besides the crime of aggression, of course, are the war crimes. What are some of the most obvious cases regarding that attacking civilians and other aspects that you're building and what do you see that moving forward? We know it has been active and the International Criminal Court has taken action with the Libya case. They did it in three months and now with the world united as they are and people supporting this, they think they might be able to also be able to coordinate and be able to bring this information forward. I know the International Criminal Court has been successful. They investigated Uganda and the Congo, why the conflict was ongoing. They also investigated Libya in the middle of the rebellion. Do you think your information will be helpful to be able to assist the ICC in going forward, especially looking at war crimes with great breaches of international law committed during this armed conflict? Yes, yes, of course. I think it's, we should take every opportunity. You know, like we have unfortunately, Ukraine hasn't signed Rome Statute yet. I mean, even though we have war conflict, even though organization insists we have to sign it, some like, it's been like public discussion and a lot of myths about this. So unfortunately we're not, you know, like the full member of this institution, but ICC is investigating cases. And, you know, like it's since the occupation of Crimea, of course they've been working on Ukraine, but it was more, you know, like this conflict wasn't that, you know, like at that scale. It wasn't just like, and everything was like, you know, like just working flow on the investigations. And of course we were like expecting the decisions and everything, but everyone understood that it's, it's not going to be, you know, like tomorrow or in one year. But now I see that, you know, people actually and communities of lawyers, on judges, on human and defendants, I see that, you know, like the response must be immediate. So we can't, you know, like wait. And of course they investigate and Russia is, you know, like using the propaganda to say like, we are not like killing civilians. We don't, you know, ruin cities and everything, but everyone actually sees the truth. We have probably all the war crimes possible, except probably for genocide and, you know, the most severe cases. But again, we are not over yet. I mean, we still have war. So everything might, you know, happen, but like every violation you can imagine, like ruining city, killing civilians, attacking hospitals, attacking humanitarian convoys, attacking volunteers, take civilians hostages and, I don't know, shooting journalists, everything, you know, like we don't actually, we have the group of volunteer document cases and we have like... It does seem like it has froze. And we hope Harita is able to join us again as she's outlining the important case of what is being built up regarding the war crimes taking place today. We know that it's noisy task to build the case and it's considered extremely difficult. We know the ICC has convicted 10 more criminals in the past two decades, but we've also seen the world join together, like never before to say that war will not be tolerated. We see individuals taking action. So we do hope that the work that you're doing, Harita, gathering the information on the ground, providing that knowledge, but more importantly, building the case will be a valuable tool. And we're so glad you're able to join us. We know we all have the spirit that will not let anything stop us and I'll let you continue on what you were explaining. Yeah, sorry, I was disconnected. Yeah, I mean, like, we, you know, like we are volunteers who document these cases. They like have work every day. We have like every single day, we have cases to document. It's like the, you know, Russian troops kill civilians. It's the, you know, like the war tool for them. So they just try to undermine people resistant. They try to, you know, show that if you are against us, you will be either killed or sent to prison or something. So they, unfortunately, we, you know, like we go through this, but it also shows the world that, you know, like war is like that. It's not something, you know, like romantic. It's not something we can just ignore or it's happening and it affects everyone. So even, like, even if it's happened in Ukraine, I mean, it doesn't go to other countries. It doesn't mean they are not affected. I talked to human rights defender from other countries and they say, like, people are frightened because they say, like, we might be next. If Ukraine falls, we might be next. And even if it doesn't, I mean, nothing is going to stop Russia. I mean, unless they have weapons, they have people, it's a huge country. I mean, it's really huge country. And they have a lot of people. So, like, if we don't, like, you know, like response must be, you know, like very much clear and it must, it should be like that. It doesn't encourage other countries to invade. So we have other countries like China, like, you know, other large countries who might have some interest on others. So we might show them that if you use war to, you know, to protect your interest or to, I know, to share your authority or something, you will be punished and this punishment must be on different levels. So of course our, you know, like military management or our diplomats, they work on different levels to take Russia accountable. But we also as human rights defenders, you know, like it's difficult for now, like for us now to, you know, distinguish human rights from politics, from military, because it's all united and we see that without, you know, like strong like armed response, we can't ensure people like people's rights without diplomacy. We can't, you know, like we can't do anything with human rights because Russia doesn't respect human rights law, international law at all. But it doesn't mean that we also don't, you know, like we have to do the same. So we respect this, you know, like, respect this value. So we try to really, you know, show the difference between democracy and dictatorship and democracy must prevail. I mean, it doesn't mean that if you have a lot of, you know, like tanks and bullets and guns, you can, you know, like just say other countries what they have to do. So it's, we really rely on this, you know, international law and human rights values to show people that it's powerful tool to resist. But we also have to, you know, like use all the possible mechanism to take Russia accountable. No, it's great to see the non-governmental organizations and the people's movements uniting and coming together and using everything that's possible that exists under international law to see what is possible at the Human Rights Council, what is possible at the UN General Assembly if the Security Council is being blocked. And then as you were sharing and explaining even deeper what's possible with the International Criminal Court. And what you point out is also so important about individuals. So the actions of Augustinova, Abushoi, Ballet, Galerina saying that a line has been drawn and that we cannot remain indifferent. That's important. Just this morning, the Noya Gazeta editor, Dmitry Muratov said his award will be auctioned to raise funds for Ukrainian fleeing war. And they did also lay out the steps that must be taken. Muratov is so brave because he's one of the only journals still organizing. He said the five things that need to be done. And I was wanting to get your opinion on that. First, stopping the combat fire. Two, exchanging prisoners. Three, releasing the bodies of the dead and honoring their spirits. Four, providing humanitarian corridors and assistance. And finally, supporting the millions of refugees who have fled. Does that sound like steps that must be taken and that you're supporting as well right now? Yeah, of course. You know, like we support all the steps that can help people, civilians and people who are under the occupied territories to survive. But the main thing that Russia has to withdraw all the troops, including those troops that in Crimea and Donbass, because without it, we again justified the use of force. Because if we say like, okay, withdraw your troops to the positions that were on February 24th, we say like, it's okay to invade other countries unless you are losing. So like if you can do it successfully and quickly, we're okay with that. And unfortunately, it would happen when Crimea was occupied. So Russia like caught us in the middle of political crisis. We just had to revolution and our president fled the country and we just started build the democracy, let's say. And Russia used this situation to invade Crimea and they of course, they didn't meet resistance because we weren't prepared to win. And unfortunately, because it happened so quickly and without blood, the world was like, okay, like we don't want to escalate. You know, like it's what they kept saying us. And the first thing that, you know, when one country invades the other country, especially when we talk about the country with nuclear weapons. So if this country invades the country without any chances to protect itself, so the response must be immediate. And it must be huge sanctions. It must be isolation of the world because I don't know what would happen if, you know, like if the world had reacted back then, I mean, with huge sanctions, but everyone was, you know, like cautious and nobody wanted to escalate. And unfortunately, after eight years, it gave Russia, you know, like justification to try and to try again to occupy more territories. And unfortunately, it also happened to Georgia in 2008 and it happened to Moldova. And like almost all the neighboring countries, so they tried to, you know, like they tried to, like they wanted to see if people would react, if the world would react. And unfortunately, yes, we had like a lot of discussions about what should be done and less was actually done. And now we see the reaction, but it's probably quite late because people are dying right now. We can't, you know, like we can't stop it right now, but it must be, you know, like the response must be immediate. And of course, the human rights defenders and all the people who want to support the first demand must be the Russian must withdraw the troops and start paying reparations because they caused a huge damage for Ukraine. Of course, they caused huge damage for itself. I mean, they are now suffering the most severe consequences but also we will suffer as well. The damages, the people like lost and the cities ruined and everything. So it must be, you know, like I believe without it, we wouldn't have peace. I mean, if Russia just, I don't know, come back and think about what was done and what should be done like in other ways. So they will return some days. So they actually did it. I mean, after Crimea, after Georgia, after all this. So yes, of course, all the steps that people take right now matter. I mean, all the support, all demonstration, all around the globe. I mean, every letter, everything. So every humanitarian like hosting refugees, everything matters but the first demand must be Russia must withdraw troops and never try again. No, thank you so much for explaining as well. For many people, they just saw the conflict beginning 27 days ago but it's something I was there in 2016 as well. And we knew that the invasion in Crimea also was a lesson. And we could see now that maybe the world has learned better to respond immediately and that the actions on the ground by the people, the bravery and the beauty inspire everyone else. But then also illustrates the importance of an order that's based in the rule of law. And also that makes sure that every life is sacred and important so that no one can sit aside and watch and that spirit of never again in the UN charter that created that document then mobilizes people. I know we only have a couple of minutes left but I also agree that Marina, the television station channel one employee was very brave as well. That editor appeared behind the nightly news anchor saying, no more in English, sharing that the world is lying to you. It's also getting out as you said that so many Russian soldiers are also dying. But I think what you really brought up tonight and sharing with the brave of what you're doing on a daily basis is documenting what's happening but saying that every action that everyone takes is important. Either if it's helping refugees fleeing, if it's donating funds, if it's making sure that the human rights record is established so that we can actually hold people accountable later. And you did allude to it. Why it's so important what we're doing is that for other big powers considering using war as a tool, we're trying to say that war is obsolete and that should not be the way forward, that there's new ways forward that we're all demanding and coordinating going forward today. Yes, yes, absolutely. I mean, you know, like when we talk about the countries, especially those large ones and with a lot of evidence, it's extremely important that we have these tools to prevent these conflicts because we are very much aware that like smaller countries don't have enough troops and don't have enough resources. And you know, like Ukraine has given up a nuclear weapon to in exchange of security guarantees. So it was our choice to be the country without nuclear weapon and do not threaten other countries, you know, like with nuclear weapon, but now it might also encourage the countries who have a nuclear weapon to, you know, like to think twice before giving up. So we shouldn't show this, you know, like this example. So we should show that if country small enough, even if it's poor enough, if it's not militarized enough, it still can be protected. So I think it's very important that we react to these attempts and not only when it happens, you know, like these full-scale invasion, but also if countries just try to, you know, like to protect on other countries, territories and everything. Yeah, if there's bullying of anyone, then no one is safe in the world. And that's why we need this rule of law and also to make sure that these standards exist. We also know today is World Water Day and we know that's been one of the tactics that they've been surrounding cities, turning off the electricity, turning off the water and turning off the heat. What should be done and how can we help people there? Is that the heat pumps being sent? Would that be helpful in our final moments of the show? Yeah, I think we should send the water supplies. I mean, as much as possible. And I believe there will be chance we could deliver it because now, you know, like one of the tactics of Russia is to attack humanitarian convoys, to cut people from every supplement, food, water and everything. But I believe when we have this opportunity to provide them our volunteers and the sorties will do everything they can. So it's important to have it stored, to have it available and when people ever create, they of course need everything. And unfortunately, water is also something, you know, like it's difficult to imagine in 2022, but yes, people in the center of Europe can be, you know, like and we also have one child died in marupul from dehydration. So yes, it's something that's happening. It's very important to send humanitarian aid to donate to humanitarian needs. And we will of course try to deliver everything as possible. Thank you so much for joining us and pointing out and showing to us by your actions that every drop counts, every action matters. And that together we can create a world where international standards support and guarantee the right of self-determination and peace for all. Thank you, Maharita, for joining us today. And we wish you well in all the work you continue doing. Thank you. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.