 Hey everybody, David Johnston. I serve as the chairman for Faktum that involved in the space since 2012 and just Amazingly excited to see all the energy in the room. It really reminds me of those early days in 2013 Where we celebrate adoption and real usage of the ecosystem. So happy to be here. Hi. I'm Andrew Stone I'm the lead developer of Bitcoin Unlimited and I recently proposed the op group tokenization scheme. So You know, if you want an unbiased opinion on tokenization, I'll handle all those questions and other people can talk about other stuff Hi, my name is Emil Lindberg. I'm the CTO of Bitcoin.com. I've been in Bitcoin since 2013 and Well at Bitcoin.com we our goal is to make Bitcoin cash the most useful and usable and used currency out there so and we see that's Any anything that makes Bitcoin cash more use of used is good Hi, I'm Justin Bonds, founder of Cyber Capital. We're a cryptocurrency investment fund So we do a lot of research just just trying to understand cryptocurrency. I'm also a proud Early voting member of Bitcoin Unlimited. Some of you might know me as Thank you. Some of you might know me by my alias of Rita Supire. We're a few years ago I was in the trenches as well, you know fighting the good fight. So, yeah, thank you So I'm just gonna jump in right now and say all right What is the state of colored coins today your views gentlemen on Bitcoin cash non-existent? I'll speak to what I think it can be What really got me excited originally about the blockchain in general was permissionless innovation and I think re-embracing the idea of innovation without permission Is really what makes protocol useful because it allows people to invent to experiment to add value in different ways that we didn't even Think about or expect before And so I think this will be an interesting thing to explore this year as People sort of push the bounds of the op codes and the things that are being Reactivated so it'd be exciting to see where it goes I would say that we have the ability to turn on Colored coins or colored outputs very soon. The code is ready. There's a product. The product is already done We us need to agree on how to activate it I would be a bit controversial here and say I think colored coins work very well over Ethereum today And I would love to see the same thing happen on Bitcoin cash And actually the the idea that you presented earlier regarding Native colored coins. I actually think that that would be one of the best ways to go I'll also just put out there that I think the more utility that a blockchain has I would say the better, you know as long as we can handle it because if more utility comes more value comes more Security and then more utility against that's the virtuous cycle. We should be aiming for Quick question now and thank you gentlemen for that. I was talking with a Bram Cohen Currently a chia and he said, you know Today the only reason why? Ethereum has value is because of solidity allowing people to create tokens in Ethereum. You take away tokens, you know Ethereum has no value You've proposed on the Bitcoin limited side this new upgrade, you know upcode is that the solution? Is this new upcode going to make Bitcoin cash as easy to create digital assets as it is on Ethereum? I Would say that it's a lot easier, right? So You know, I have a tokenization solution not a smart contract solution and the reason why I came to that same conclusion, which is that Smart contracts are perhaps awesome in the future, but it's like a huge hammer to create tokens And so instead of doing something that complex I Opted for a very and also you saw the Ethereum bugs and things, right? So I opted for a much simpler solution that I think cat grabs the majority of today's use cases and of course What I'm hoping with the Bitcoin cash scripting language is that it grows in complexity and if we're doing native Tokens then as it grows in complexity your smart contract options will just naturally grow Got it Yeah, so I think Was the other week that was a news article that tens of thousands of Ethereum smart contracts are vulnerable and That is a very good reason to do a native color But to do a minimum viable token on Bitcoin cash because we get We we without a complexity we get the the functionality and that's what most people they has one functionality like if Amazon is to issue gift cards on a blockchain any blockchain they For for Amazon, for example, it will be what it would make more sense to do it a simple Token on Bitcoin cash instead of using a very complex solidly solidity Program on Ethereum. I think I'm very fairly automated You know standardized process exists now just just to create a token over Ethereum So if if we can create things like DAOs with with with more limited, you know, based on a more limited scripting language I would be all for that actually But I'm but I'm not sure if if that would be as efficient in terms of how something like Ethereum can do that today Actually, maybe that's a question for you Right so the DAO has a bunch of rules that are kind of like You know tally up all the owners votes to choose What to subsequently vote on right? I wasn't specifically referring to the DAO, but more the generalized concepts of DAOs Let's say yeah, so yeah, I Actually question the viability of that whole concept and the reason why is fundamentally often people Collect money because they want to use it, right? So let's say I want to create like a mortgage smart contract, right? So I code in my smart contract. Okay, so once a month, I'm gonna pay let's say I create a thousand tokens Once a month in the smart contract. I'm gonna pay out You know the interest to all the individuals now This sounds really nice when you're sitting up here, then you realize Where does the money come from that I use to pay out to those individuals if I had that money when I made a Smart contract I wouldn't need to have the mortgage in the first place, right? So in order to defeat that smart contract all I have to do is not Pay into it on a monthly basis, right? So that smart contract doesn't actually enforce anything and so you're basically you might as well just Run a little script on your computer, you know off blockchain that just looks at all the Owners of the contract on a particular date and pays them the interest. I Think maybe a counter example to that is I'm rather fond of the idea of being able to create, you know You know more decentralized type companies, right? Where if a company makes profit then part of that profit would go to dividends would go to token holders and you know You combine that with Governance as well as a token holder You have some degree of governance like like a similar to our board of directors would work in legacy systems I really do see You know efficiencies there and It's it's easier and then there's this middleman and I see advantages there I mean as long as we can do it, you know, I'm more pragmatic like that if it works it works And that seems like something that's that's useful, you know in that sense. No quick question Now if you're him has a culture of you know, I know you get Ethereum has a culture of right code fast break it, you know, just go for it Is the Bitcoin cash culture about you know Writing new op codes fast like you know op group and then letting people break it Is that is that culture here also is the culture of trying to raise money and I see owing part of the Bitcoin cash Culture that once the opcode is in people are just gonna rush I mean, what's what's driving this this boat here? So the day after the Bitcoin cash fork I wrote a Document proposing op data to verify and about a month after that I proposed op group and the reason why is because I was looking for ways to drive and user adoption of Bitcoin cash because I felt like we created a lot of capacity but You know, we gave away the network effect of Bitcoin and so we needed to create compelling reasons even though payments is going to be You know the the most valuable thing in Bitcoin cash We need to create secondary uses to get people to install wallets And so basically at what op group does is it enhances Bitcoin from a payments network to an exchange network? And I think that's incredibly powerful David you know, you know been an investor and you know a lot of I mean You've been at the beginning of a lot of digital assets. We met at master coin You gave me my first job in crypto. Thank you. Thank you That was good. That was a good paying job But you know, you've seen the evolution from you know all the way back 2013 to today You know, what does Bitcoin cash need to do to become the most attractive substitute for digitizing and tokenization of real-world assets Well, I think Andrew's point on which is you can't just create a payment network You have to allow people to make use cases for that payment network. And so Absolutely bring digital assets. Yeah, why not okay people love kittens the internet the internet was built on kids Why not? That's not a bad thing That was only perceived as a bad thing because it filled up the available capacity of that network And then it was slow and fees went up and people complained But if you have the capacity if you build the space for these use cases Bring it on right all those use cases in and so I think that's a powerful thing Where we can be a community that embraces those use cases We don't have to fear people using the network that should never enter our lexicon Let's expand the capacity. The answer is when it gets full. Let's expand the capacity I don't think that's a problem. That's actually a feature like bring it on So when is it gonna happen guys? I mean, I'm ready to go. What is it gonna happen? Well, as I said earlier, we need to Come together as a community and decide on when to activate it and that has been some some contention It's been a very good debate. It's a fight. It's helped me Yeah, but it's been a very good debate an open debate on reddits that was not censored because if this was our Bitcoin and It would have been censored Like if you don't agree with the party line, you're done You're out you've kicked out and that is not the case in the beckon cash community We can have a very lively open debates and that's good. Okay, and another thing if we were to have Crypto kitties on on beckon cash, I would probably you can do it you don't there's a lot of functionality there in this in the smart contract on Ethereum that you cannot really do in with the scripting language in beckon cash So what you would so the easiest way of doing it would probably be to like you you buy a ten dollar per month DPS on digital ocean and you just fire up a Bitcoin J SPV wallets and you just have this wallet perform all the different crypto kitty things right and That will be very cheap to run it will be require very little resources and That's why we need we want native tokens Well, I think that's an important point because there's a world of things that you can do outside of the blockchain and run those programs and when it comes to Actual payment and transfer of value and moving around the token. That's where it's important that you have a connection To the ledger There's a world of programs that need to run and then what we can do is store persistently those outcomes From the program in the blockchain and really use that as the transfer and exchange mechanism that you're talking about Yeah, so as I was trying to say with smart contracts really if your smart contract is not a hundred percent trustless including Funding that contract Then you might as well run it off-chain right or you can run it off-chain because You're you're trusting that the contract gets fun. So you're not a fan of the VM. That's what you're saying. I think that We're still looking for an awesome use case for Smart contracts and I hope that one appears and revolutionizes the world But in the meanwhile we have you know every stock bond mortgage land title right that could be put on to the blockchain with tokens and in indication of you know like a English or a natural language document, you know saying how this token is enforced Yeah, I have to agree with Andrew here actually that for an application if you're able to do it on the blockchain I would argue that's better actually because doing things on chain gives you a much better trust model and For many applications. I think this is very important so And we have to also keep in mind You know as the Bitcoin cash community that when we're competing with systems that can do it on chain Then you know, maybe we should cross that road as well and you know give them a good fight Okay New idea a lot of news stuff is launching Outside of the Ethereum Bitcoin ecosystem That is attempting to work on what we call cross atomic Contract swaps. So if I have tokens in Ethereum, I can swap them for tokens in Cosmos or you know Something else in Bitcoin cash. Is there some interest in interacting with other chains? in these Swap type crazy locking stuff that we're here going on and what are your thoughts? so I actually think that's very interesting and I'm sort of previewing the talk that I'm going to give tomorrow but basically, you know in The color coin to Bitcoin cash. There's two main sort of possibilities one is to put the information in a Medichain in opera turn and the other one is a native token in using op group and the problem with an opera turn is that Anyone can sort of put any data they want in the opera turn, right? So it means that the miners don't validate the information you can just forge a whole bunch of fake Transactions and the client has to decide what's true or not the end result of that is that you need a You need a full node to discover this right so okay, so That is a big liability with that architecture and what's actually this now to come a full with your question Is it so it turns out from it basically means you can't run an SPV wallet, right? But let's say I had two separate SPV Capable blockchains and they were able in your wallet could easily move between their tokens using these Atomic cross-chain transactions. It's actually more efficient to run two separate blockchains Both doing you know one being say Bitcoin cast the other one being native tokens, right? So I would say that that architecture is actually From a from a wallet, you know from a technical standpoint of better architecture than using meta coins in opera turn Got it Another thing about putting metadata in the opera turn is that the node the client needs to vary It is basically client validation So the client the the receiver needs to decide if it's valid or not So in case of a hard fork you don't have proof of work that decides the victor so the The really interesting thing with proof of work is that when you have a disagreement You decide a victor by proof of work That's basically what happens when you have an orphan for example a victor is decided by proof of work. I mean personally I think we're gonna have both Solutions, you know, it's exciting to see this interoperability Which we've been talking about for a long time between the different chains becoming a reality And to your point I think it helps to have specialization in different chains And you have proof of work from each chain to validate that But I think there are use cases where it makes sense to have client interpretation So I think it depends on whether it's something at the protocol level something infrastructure a little or whether it's An application that's running on top of one of those protocols So I think interoperability is very interesting and actually has some very interesting consequences as well one of the consequences actually that the Network effect of money as we traditionally know it has actually been I would argue Significantly weakened because I think the way I see this playing out is if you go to a store And they only accept light coin and you have a pair coin just some randomly bad examples actually but That that you should just be able to seamlessly Transact and that that's not something you have to think about However, there is another very strong network effects Which which I think the strongest network effect is actually six security when it when it comes to these blockchains when really assessing their Usefulness their their utility so for that reason I think there can only be so many Dominant protocol layers and this is why I would also argue against specialization that if we can build a blockchain That can do all of these things Then this is a blockchain that has the highest network effect and therefore so the highest security and and I think that's that's something That's worth striving for you know if possible, of course We have to be pragmatic and we yet to see what all the technologists are gonna come up with here Leads me to another question talking about security. So, you know my wife and I have an agreement that she'll monitor my Ethereum wallet, you know as a safety precaution and I was just testing some spank chain tokens the other day, you know for science So because I have no real privacy on Ethereum every one of my token transactions are trackable Privacy is now being a big discussion, you know on Ethereum. It's a discussion in Zcash and others Where does Bitcoin cash stand with regards to tokens and privacy being able to enhance that given that? We don't even get that out of Bitcoin core. Well, I think this ties in with the previous subject If you're interpreting things at the application layer you can keep a lot of private data private and Simply publish audit trails and proofs to the main chain that don't expose anything About the private information that you're using at the application layer I think that's actually important for how we do privacy I do want to see on chain privacy move forward, but in the meantime while a lot of those things are being tested I think the shortcut immediately and what we see today is you can bring that to the application layer and just be publishing these proofs Well, hold on a minute Even if we publishing proofs, I still am signing transactions on chain people are still seeing my tokens Move on chain. They can still they may not know what the token is for But they can still see that the token transaction move between my wallet address and another wallet address Is there no way for me to up for skate or make private those transactions? Well, there is I mean you could simply use a mixer if you break the links I mean all mixers have shown to have some sort of failure, right? So it's a bit hit or miss especially now Some mixes work don't have a privacy. We'd have no privacy answer nothing in the pipeline to say hey Privacy and tokens on Bitcoin. I think they definitely ask solutions But I think privacy is actually one of the issues currently that is contentious even within Bitcoin cash And I think there's a this is one of these few issues and that arguments can be made to not have on chain privacy features and good arguments can also be made that We should have on chain privacy features. So this is actually a Sticky subject and it's going to be interesting to see how this evolves into the future I Have said I've mixed feelings about it because because I do see the advantages of having a completely transparent chain But that that would actually Counteract what I said earlier about specialization You know, maybe optional privacy for that reason would be would be a better way to go and there definitely are technological solutions The question is I do we want to implement these solutions? You know on the protocol ever in Bitcoin cash and I'd also say mixes do work if you have a good mixer and you know, right? It's it's always a tricky subject Andrews, so But this is the sort of thing if you use native tokens and we Fix privacy for Bitcoin cash, then we're going to fix it for the tokens automatically In the very long term, I think a new encryption format like BLS encryption is really interesting Yeah, but that's very long. Right. That's a very long term Couple years I did exchange some emails with one of the authors and he was super excited And he's using it in a you know He's using his own work in a proprietary blockchain. So BLS encryption is happening in block chain Yes, it's happening and aggregate signatures are hot definitely something to look at Okay, so, you know Coming back now to you know being ready for bringing tokens You know into the Bitcoin cash ecosystem just coming away from the tech and now talking maybe about the community you know, what other activities are going on in the community that people can become aware of Tokenization the tokenization roadmap for Bitcoin cash if they're not, you know, sort of focused on the engineering What signals can they look for? well currently I see that the community is very focused on adoption and utility making Bitcoin cash more usable and by bringing tokens to it that I see that's that's just along the That's what we're already doing like we're just adding adding tokens would all it would just increase the utility Okay, and adoption so since I'm traveling I spent the whole morning like hating my e-book system and Thinking about how you know, if you tokenize your ownership of an e-book then you could actually Transfer that ownership right and there's there's a bunch of Potential issues with this half-baked idea one is I just give everyone my private key right and then and then they can I'll use my book, but there's a solution to that and then I'll just stop there, which is Maybe the publisher forces a person to put down a deposit in you know Bitcoin cash like you know ten dollars on that same private key So then if I give that private key that can you know unlock the book To a stranger he can steal the deposit, right? So I think there might be some Solutions there and it would you know drive the blockchain Onto every e-reader and at the same time I think it would you know help our more of our philosophy of you know sort of And users rights which has been undermined by you know the book industry right fair use exists on Hardcovered books, but not on e-books, right? One thing I'd love to see come back is discounts for pain and Bitcoin cash I mean for e-commerce folks The payment in Bitcoin cash is a huge advantage because they have no risk of charge back or fraud Right, and so this saves some percentage of the revenue of major E-commerce retailers and so you know for a while There's a movement in the Bitcoin space before if he's got high to really offer discounts for payment I think that's a cool user Incentive that crosses all use cases Everybody wants to get paid to use a more efficient system of money And so I think that'll be interesting to see if that comes back and we're starting to see some of those people offer discounts On top of that in terms of offering discounts for Bitcoin cash It's also the user that pays the fee and not the merchant so actually Bitcoin flips that model around and What I would think a very positive way actually so I definitely grew a few there Especially when the fee is under a penny exactly especially then You know when we look at Up group as a new innovation, you know for essentially native tokenization And we still have the option of doing, you know, either bare multi-sig or up return Do you foresee that people are going to start using these different colored coin approaches in Bitcoin cash? Or folks will you know essentially up group is so attractive for native activity Most folks are just gonna go for the up the native option so I Got all excited about colored coins in 2012 right, but a wallet it took forever for a wallet to appear because of the complexities and you know a light While it never appeared so that's why when I designed up group my number one criteria was SPV wallet capable, so I do think that it will take over these other use cases because I felt like We would have had colored coins, you know Four years ago if it if they whereas SPV wallet capable Well, one thing that is very Good to keep in mind for the for native colored coins, which is the the op group Is that every wallet can support it? It's SPV compatible But as I said earlier in my in my talk is also every wallet has to support it there is mandatory they have to support it some way or the other because if a Wallet is not upgraded and it tries to spend the colored coins in an invalid way The wallet will keep signing a transaction that is not valid That will never be received by by the network and the wallet will not understand why the transaction gets rejected so because of this property every wallet will implement it and All the hardware wallets every single SPV wallet bread wallets like if you have an Token that is using opera turn for example You cannot receive that token on your bread wallets because it's an SPV wallet only the hosted wallets like Bitcoin and common co-pay would be able to support All the different opera turn tokens Awesome quick question for you I'm gonna jump in here because you know, I was inspired to think of another sort of barrier to adoption Which is essentially confirmation time. All right, you know, we have to wait 10 minutes for a block You know in a theorem there what 15 seconds? You know, so my question is, you know, do we still have a problem of speed that even if we got the token hotness? You know Bitcoin cash will still be competing against other chains that you know Allow people to essentially run and process transactions faster. Is that a concern? I? Would save It's not really 10 minutes since Bitcoin cash is so safe for serial confirmation. It is less than a second It's a few millis. Tom But one thing that is good to keep in mind for tokens that it for example if a an Ico is going to pay out dividend to shareholders, they're probably not gonna pay out dividend to Share to people that hold to unconfirmed tokens. They're only gonna pay out to confirmed Token so in the token case It would most likely be you will probably have to wait 10 minutes at least to to be a confirmed holder of this token One important thing to understand is Since anyone can throw Unvalidated data in opera turn You could double-spend that very easily in fact you couldn't even like miners couldn't even detect the double-spend because I'm just great I would create arbitrary transactions and I even I couldn't control which The first one that was that made it in the block right the you know closest to the coin base would be the one that Was considered valid even if there would be multiples in the block whereas with the Group you could rely on Zero cough just as much as you do today with Bitcoin cash I'm gonna predictably have another unpopular opinion here but but first of all I'll say Zero confirmation I think works very well and as Thomas actually also mentioned With a with a payment processor, it's very reliable and and There's wet and we're now thinking of ways to do this without payment processors more reliably Which I think is very interesting, but I but I do think that you know if I think we can have shorter block times And I think that would be a good thing because There's certain situations like you know I might receive a token and I might want to send that token and If I have to wait 10 minutes to be able to send that token again And that can be a lot longer as well because of variance that that could be up to an hour so so if you say have a Throwing a number out there at a two and a half minute block time right Crazy, right crazy. Yeah, right, right But in that case the actual max variance is significantly lower And I just would just be a better user experience and you know more useful and and I know to some people You know 10 minute confirmation times are somehow sacrosanct and the perfect number, but I Didn't see anything wrong with with reducing block times actually. I think that'd be a good thing I think that's beneficial also in the fact that you increase capacity Because if we're at 32 megabytes per block, yeah, and if you're doing blocks at a minute, right two minutes It's coming my It's today soon soon. It's gonna be more it's called imagine consensus But no, I really loved the way Gavin Andreessen did it back in the day He did a lot of testing and he would just assert. Hey This is what the data says and I think we're reasonably safe with X amount of time You know, I think 10 minutes originally was fairly conservative And I think there's a lot of room to improve that in the next version So Be you actually has you know studying that on our roadmap But to give like a little preview in even some of our earliest studies moving blocks through the GFC the firewall at China right out even to the US we were able to move those blocks in like Less than a second right and the way we did it was we created redundant paths through the GFC and right now I mean, you know If you're using X thinner compact blocks, you're barely pat you're not passing a megabyte You're passing one, you know internet packet, right? And that's much more likely to pass smoothly through the network then have a bunch of retries. So I'm not gonna suggest five second blocks, but actually you can move the blocks across the world much faster than So I have to say here that I think she lost my train of thought. Sorry about that. I'll pass it on I'm not gonna mention that it's perfect. They're perfectly safe to keep spending unconfirmed transactions that you get up to I don't know the number was it 25 Yeah, something like that. So Like if you have a token that is an Amazon gift card, for example You can treat it as any kind of output when it comes to spending and for Amazon receiving their gift card as a token is Unconfirmed is is considered very safe So that doesn't really matter and they can receive a chain of unconfirmed and they will most likely all of them be mined in the same block So the block time isn't doesn't really matter like when we when we're talking tokens The only time where the block time actually matters is for for shareholders when they're paying out dividends That's the only time it actually matters. That's a great point actually because a lot of my unit tests You know, I don't want to wait So I just create big chains of unconfirmed token moves and then confirm them all in a block So I'm gonna have to disagree there a little bit. I've I've I've experienced a lot where Actually, I did this the other day, you know, I think we all do a lot of evangelizing here I I send some Bitcoin cash to a new user and this user wanted to send Bitcoin cash Straight away and I had to explain to him. No, you can't do that. You have to wait You know for confirmation and if that confirmation came faster would simply be a better user experience I'm gonna actually remembered what I was gonna say before so just touch on that I think the idea that if we reduce block times, it's not Equivalent to increasing the capacity. It doesn't have to be so if we're really at our theoretical limits We can still increase sorry decrease the block times and simply decrease the block size limits And we still have the same let's say 32 megabytes for example, and I think that's also perfectly legitimate You should probably tell them to install a better wallet that allows them to to spend on confirmed. I Know a pretty good wallets Fear enough All right Do we should we have audience would you like to ask some questions of our awesome panel? All right. Okay, so you're gonna forgive us because we're out of mics But I'm gonna grab one Do I got it? Oops, I'm drip. I'm drooping. Okay. Sorry Okay, here you go. I'm we're gonna come down to you. What's the difference between colored coins and The counterparty cash So native colored coins of the op group is a native colored output on layer one It doesn't use opera turn while kind of party cash would use the opera turn Data which requires a full node and cannot be run on a SVV note It's it's like a blockchain. That's running Inside arbitrary data inside the Bitcoin cash blockchain. So for example in order to you literally have to move Bitcoin cash into counter party cash, which they call xcp and then you can spend that to deal, you know to move tokens so guys Our business does online gaming And we have a lot of use cases obviously for colored coins, but one of our main concerns is Having having the owner of the colored coin have to pay for the transaction is A big problem. So is there any future thought given to how a An organization could actually pay for the transaction cost on behalf of their customer to move the colored coin He's asking about essentially delegated signing. So, you know, wouldn't like child pays for parent handle that So you're basically talking about sending a syrupy transaction Correct Because yeah with the current current specification for op group Syrupy syrupy transactions are not allowed But that's not specific to all group at all and Allowing that could potentially have some some side effects I have someone told me today that they wanted to have the ability to pay the mining fee with the token But that is not something that is in the current specification So the idea that we could pay the mining fee with the token I'm just gonna put it out there. That's we shouldn't do that because it actually messes with the value proposition actually and You know, you want to create demand for the protocol layer token, which gives us the security of the system actually so a Medium of exchange, sorry Exactly. Yeah, and you know, and we need that the security that that gives essentially so so in short It's not directly possible in the way that you're describing it I hate saying this actually but if you centralize and and and do the token transactions for your customers That might actually be one way to do it practically, but it's it's not as nice as it You you still need to use bacon cash as rocket fuel to descend the token and Even if even if you're spreading tokens So if you are in digitalizing tokens and telling everyone like hey, this is my amazing token They still need to use bacon cash, which makes them a bit con cash user So I think that's probably not a not necessarily a bad thing that they need to have bacon cash Asked fuel to to be able to use the token Question the question about the broken turbo So now some wallets like a lock the six confirmation to move to other wallet Is it a safe nest? I mean safety in this it's come from a matter of electrically the minor use so if that's the interval is shorter like say 30 seconds is Do we still have to wait one hour to get say same kind of securities? We'd actually don't really need to wait six confirmations anymore And we haven't we don't we don't actually that's just an old practice that's been some exchanges have Have kept up with but we don't need six confirmations anymore. We have we haven't needed it for years Just on all practice Well, I think there are some cases where you might want some more Confirmations, but that's only when you're dealing with a very high amount of value So if you look at what the block award is and then you look at the size of your transaction That might be a good way to kind of measure up, you know the ballpark of that But I was actually corrected before in that, you know, maybe just use a wallet that does allow you to spend Unconfirmed outputs Because it's it's not part of this restriction is not part of the protocol layer, but specific wallet implementations Question here. Yeah. Hi, so in this native UTXO model does that is that a mean that The colored coins are represented by Satoshi's is that what that is or is it not? so in the original Version of this I had one Satoshi for one colored coin and there was a direct representation But I did get a surprising amount of pushback for that. So I actually Added so as ML showed you it's you give the asset tag and then you give a quantity Okay, and it and the minor balances that quantity So you just need to make sure that in terms of Satoshi's you have at least one in the output Otherwise, you know, it's a zero-valued output So one Satoshi can actually correspond to many units. Yeah, there's no relationship anymore between the number of Satoshi in the output and the Number of tokens. Excellent. Thank you And I think that's probably the right way to go because then it's a lot more flexible and the way you're encoding the data versus the One-to-one. So glad to see that That's good And I'm glad to get that validation. The one thing that concerns me a little bit is everyone's thinking of these tokens as representing You know something whereas I originally call this op group to because I thought there might be reasons to group Bitcoin cash, right? And so I gave away that feature In order to have this because now you can move your Satoshi's in and out of that the group outputs So hopefully no one will find a compelling use for it as a group of Bitcoin cash Satoshi's And so in the in the color coins talk you talk about two different possible implementations There was a one about using op group and the other one was about changing the transaction format, right? So can you can you talk more about what's the what are the benefits of using op group instead of changing the transaction format with With a hard fork especially the would there be Benefits programmatically for the day if we get there to the day we have smart contracts So for your first question The changing the whole transaction format is something that people Have been proposed and keep proposing once in a while, but it's an enormous change it will take years to go through with that and Even and it's something that the thing is like I don't think we are we really want to Change the whole transaction format only to act to get tokens We probably want to make sure that we get a lot of new functionality with that But there's there's other other problems because it will be a very long process. It will be a lot of different opinions on how to do it the right way and By using op group The op group is simply the most pragmatical approach and the most reasonable approach. I think Andrew has some Andrew can probably tell more about why you should not add new features when you completely change the architecture So I will sit in a second But I do want to make a stronger statement, which is that? semantically it's exactly the same and Ironically if you just you just added an asset tag below the value and you look at the serialized format of that Transaction versus op group the data lies out in in the serialized form and exactly the same Right, so it's just the humans who decided. Oh, I'm gonna take this piece of data and you know Assign it a special, but you know variable name Right, so that's a huge amount of work just to you know And I agree that's good to have nice clean code and everything But it's a tremendous like we're talking you know potentially as Emil was saying years of work just to like Make people have like a slightly warmer and fuzzier feeling about you know their code, right? And also yeah, so in terms of you know developing This sort of thing in my experience I always like Kind of like the software version of Intel's tick-tock approach and that is you should refactor and make no semantic changes whatsoever And that way you can basically compare your two implementations Against each other run all the same unit tests and then once everything's cleaned up That's so that's your tick and then your talk is you add new features, right? So after op group Is deployed there's absolutely no reason why and other things that maybe are a little awkward There's no reason why someday we wouldn't clean that all up in a completely new transaction format So I'm just gonna put this out here I Would not be against Changing the transaction format just to get native tokens because I think that's that'd be great I'm curious if there's any ways to speed up that process And we can you know schedule it in a hard fork in six months or something along those mines Technically op group is soft fork, so we can do it at any time once miners start, you know signaling for it Technically it is a soft fork, but it's probably easier if we activate it at the same time as the hard fork Since it will break every wallet Okay, so so what happens is op group is a is a different script, right? And so what what's gonna happen is your wallet is going to receive this strange? Output and it's not gonna know what it is, so it's just gonna forget it's gonna drop it, right? So the effect is if you send a colored coin to a wallet that doesn't support op group It it won't even see it So I think that's actually the best thing it would the worst thing is if you accidentally spend that output Right and you know remove the tokenization even which is possible in some of the older colored coin approaches so in this case, you know it seems to disappear and You know you might have some fear and angst about that or you know an excitement But then you upgrade your wallet or switch it to a different wallet and suddenly You know that wallet understands the output and appears right so that would be if you made no changes at all Dear wallet, that's what happens. I don't think it's that bad if you make a really small change to your wallet You could say you could put up a little red box that says I just received a weird output You know so and I don't understand it, so I'm gonna ignore it And I think then even the end user wouldn't freak out Can you do one question here? Similar question on the speed of the transition and stuff I used coin prism quite a bit in the past few years and it's just coming this closing down on March 31st Is there any way you could implement colored coin in like a week? Just just so just to save the people who might have been using coin prism for whatever they were using Specifically Luca the L ykk project. I was kind of looking at I thought it was interesting It's it's been running on testnet for so can you make it live in a week? So bring everybody over and be the saving grace. I think we would you would we would all need to you know Talk to the miners and and the rest of the community and put a lot of excitement and pressure on them. I Can't personally if you guys all just you know pig pile on certain people Maybe leads me to ask a question So for coin prism and all the old colored coin protocols that were on Bitcoin before the Bitcoin cash fork Are they usable right now because they're on the Bitcoin cash version? I mean Possibly right? Is there any software that supports the fork and the coin prism? I mean they're theoretically there and everything you'd need you'd need that. Yeah, okay, so Which gives another like good argument which gives us another good argument Why we should it should be native because there is a lot of Tedders on The big on cash blockchain, but you can't use them because there's no there's no node software that can can make you spend them so Like all these different layer two Protocols they need very specific node software to support them Actually, I actually agree with the point that you're making but I find the idea of running a full node to store your tethers Somewhat contradictory in in some ways, you know, you want to trustlessly hold your trusted tokens So so actually you made a good point before in principle I think if someone developed it you you could just restart coin prism on Bitcoin cash But someone would actually have to you know build it which I imagine wouldn't be too much work You just re-implement what was built before I'd also like to add and and also in principle we could hard fork in a week To do these changes, but that's that's probably not a good idea to do things that quickly Well, it's it's a soft work. It's not a hard fork. So yes, the miners could activate it in a week but I think Wallet developers will be very sad if we do and a lot of people will be very sad So we shouldn't do that It's only really in more emergency situations that that we would have such a short timeline Since we're on the subject. I would like to just put out there. I Basically think that for all changes we should do hard forks. I have More political ideas around why it should be that way but in principle I think it's better that in order to accept a change to the network that if you're just being passive You shouldn't just go along with it. I think I think in terms of you know freedom and you know our choice I think hard forks are better because then people need to consciously agree to that change And I think that's that's a much better way to go about things. So I think for Bitcoin cash We're not scared of hard forks. We might as well Do all our changes through hard forks because it supports the principles of Bitcoin cash and the vision of Satoshi Okay Thanks to your audience. We're gonna my last send-off. I love doing send-offs each of you We got a group of people here who are excited about tokens and colored coins One what's your prediction for colored coins and on on Bitcoin cash in the next three months? Not long to just next three months. And lastly, what can we do in the audience to participate and get involved? I Wouldn't want to deploy it when it's not ready, you know but you guys can help by putting pressure on You know the the greater community and I don't mean negative pressure just add excitement run Bitcoin unlimited nodes mine with Bitcoin unlimited And that will you know put the rest of the community on notice to say this is actually a really important feature I personally think that it's a The most important feature right now in terms of driving adoption and so I would encourage everyone to do that in the next few months and you know, there is a possibility with that kind of excitement that We might you know and and if there's like it turns out that's that some company is ready to go and ready to really put Tokens on then we might be able to move the schedule up because like I said the software is there I would say Download either a full node that connects to the Bitcoin limited test net or an SPV node that connects to the test net and start building applications that uses tokens That's start building star start building the projects the software that uses the tokens do it on test nets show people what you can do I would say you don't you don't have to be a developer to really have a lot of influence and I think you'd be surprised You know if everyone in this room got on to read it tomorrow and Crusaded for this change you would see it within a month. I think So, you know if you really want to see a change, you know in the protocol speak up You know and and and put your weight on the scales to make that change happen. It's it's not up to the developers It's it's up to the consensus and we're all a part of that consensus. So, you know get involved You're here Run a node build a business make your voice heard and it's wonderfully in a community where all of those options are open to us So that's great Thank You David. Thank You Andrew. Thank You Emile and thank you Justin thank you audience That was it