 Hello and welcome everyone to this third installment of our summer research webinar series. Thank you all very much for making the time to attend. Before we kick this off, we just want to also on behalf of CSR express our condolences to the Royal Family and express our thoughts with them today, particularly on this hard day of the period of national mourning. Like I mentioned, so this is the third installment of our summer research webinar series. Some of you who have already attended, we ran a similar series actually in spring. But this time, I'm very delighted and privileged to introduce you to Dr. Dina Khalifa, who is a senior research associate at the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership, CSL for short. Some of you might have already been with us for quite some time, but you probably, as you all know, CSL specializes in a range of things, while addressing sustainability challenges, particularly in evidence driven work, so building evidence bases to empower business finance and also policy leaders to take back real decisions, tools and frameworks back into their organizations. Dina herself is an experienced academic in the area of luxury branding and luxury marketing, with more than 12 years of teaching and research experience, both in the UK and Egypt. And she holds a PhD in luxury brand marketing, with a particular research focus on the social psychology and motivations that drive luxury consumption, which is particularly important in the world at the moment that is marked by social inequalities, by fear of poverty, by fuel poverty, and fear of what comes next, particularly reflecting what drives consumption and looking at the luxury industry is Dina's starting point here. In particular, she's interested in areas of identity threat, threats, luxury brand status and luxury value perceptions. Her fellowship, which is the work that she's doing at CSL today, is supported by a generous philanthropic donation from industry. And also she's in her work, she seeks to explore the opportunities and challenges of luxury brand activism, and its potential to drive social change. That's a quick introduction to Dina and to the series itself. So we're streaming this on several different platforms. Some of you may have attended, attending through GoTo, others have joined us through LinkedIn. Both have common functions, so just send any questions or comments that you have, and we will pick them up and address them at the end of the session. Without further ado, I'm going to hand over to Dina, and yeah, enjoy the presentation and Dina's wonderful work. Dina. Thank you, Dina, for the introduction. And it's a pleasure to meet everyone today, and I would like to talk to you about the topic of luxury and social inclusion, which may seem like an oxymoron. So I think it's very important to start with basic definitions and delineating what each concept entails. And then I'm going to present this idea of why the luxury needs, the sector needs to address social inclusion, and then what are the challenges and opportunities that are present. So I think it's very important to start by asking the question, what is luxury? This is a common question that we ask at the beginning of each academic paper and academic conferences, and the multitude of answers that we get each time is just fascinating, because there's always a personal element when defining luxury. Luxury, so what I've done is, in this picture, I tried to Google, ask Google, what luxury means to you. I would urge you to all of you do that, because I'm sure your search engine would be customized to your previous searches. And as you can see, the most common images would be luxury cars, luxury hotels, apartments, and yachts, which what corresponds to our modern day definition of luxury. However, luxury is as old as time. It goes back as old as humanity from the pyramids of Egypt, which were burial sites for kings and queens. And the size of the burial site or the pyramids was an indication of the status of the king. In modern day, luxury has taken various forms, and it now symbolizes, it manifests in modern day luxury brands. However, whether it's old or new, whether it was a palace or a luxury car or a luxury brand, luxury has always been about status and status stratification, which is distancing the haves from the have nots and accentuating social economic disparities. If we are to define luxury brands, still it's very hard to find an agreement among academics and practitioners of what actually constitutes a luxury brand. Even if I'm I to divide a list of the most, what is your favorite luxury brand, each person may perceive something as luxury that others may not perceive it this way. However, what academics have agreed on is there are several dimensions that can set luxury brands apart. Some of these dimensions are fine craftsmanship. Luxury products are of the highest quality. They are made from rare material by the best craftsmen people. They are usually very expensive products, not overpriced, but are expensive. They are excessive and extravagant. So luxury by definition is not something that is needed. It's not a necessity. They are rare and very exclusive, and they are ostentatious. In fact, luxury brands are considered our status symptoms. They are used by a lot of consumers worldwide to flaunt and to signal their status and their position. They are elitist and they are privileged for the happy few. As such, these elements of exclusivity are often portrayed in the marketing communication and branding efforts by luxury brands. For instance, there are many recent campaigns focused on this idea that when you own a luxury product, you belong to a very exclusive club. And some of these campaigns show that it does not reach for the wider audiences. You have to be very lucky. You have to be very privileged in order to belong to the selected few who own luxury products. Even in luxury store experiences. So these are images from a movie. However, there was also an academic paper that showed that when luxury retail personnel, they do have certain codes of communication, the way they dress and the way they treat customers. They sort of the often judge people who do not see them as fitting the image of the luxury brand and they may even refuse them service at certain points. And there was a paper that showed this rejection at the retail store. If the sales personnel have treated you in a certain way or did not think of you as a worthy customer of their brand, rather than keeping the customers away and reducing the brand evaluation, they actually found that that makes consumer want to purchase the brand even more, which shows that luxury branding is counterintuitive to traditional marketing efforts because of this element of exclusivity. So why when people are rejected or why when they are not welcomed by luxury brand, they wanted even more. The global luxury market is very large and it's growing and it's reaching billions of dollars. However, this growth in the market is not driven by the 1% of the high net worth income individual, but rather it's actually driven by the growing aspirational consumers, the growing middle classes. So why do these middle classes are aspiring luxury so bad when it seems like it's rejecting them or it's not welcoming them, welcome these customers? There has been a lot of research trying to understand consumer motivations for luxury consumption. There have been various motives. This is one of the seminal frameworks to understand consumer motivation. And as we can see, there are various motivations depending on whether it's for you, it's luxury for the self or for others and whether price is a major factor in the reason why you're consuming luxury. I would look into the right hand side at the snob and biblin effect. These are more outward facing and these are very reliant on the price and the luxury being exclusive and expensive. So the snob appeal is people who want luxury to stay away from the masses. So exclusivity is one of the main drivers for these consumers of why they own and consume luxury. If it is to be owned by a lot of people, then it's no longer desired by these type of consumers. And also the biblin effect. So biblin defy the traditional economic theory is the more expensive the product is, the more desired it is by consumers for the reason of showing wealth ostentatious display of wealth, as we call it. On the left hand side, you can see there are bandwagon consumers who desire luxury brands for affiliation or to belong to others. However, even these consumers need its exclusivity because in their search for belonging and affiliation, the only one to belong to what we call in group, these exclusive group of people they consider a silration in, but they also want to set themselves apart from the masses and everyone who may consume luxury that does not fit the image. So as such, the different drivers for luxury consumer still relies on this idea of status, that separation between those who have and those who have not. As such, if luxury is to lose this exclusivity, it may jeopardize its basic core value proposition. Then why does luxury have to be inclusive? Why does it the need to address inclusivity when obviously exclusivity is such a major driver for its consumption? We are living in unprecedented times. We are living in areas and times of extreme inequalities as disparities between the haves and the have not are further increasing. We've seen climate change effects that have also unequal effects affecting those vulnerable communities much way worse than more affluent communities. We've seen the pandemic and how it also further accentuated socioeconomic disparities. And such luxury brands have become a potent victim to become a symbolic manifestation of those inequalities to flaunt your wealth and to consume conspicuously when other people are losing jobs and they can barely afford basic necessities that may appear too in this and it may actually puts the industry under increased scrutiny. We've seen the rise of populism and various social movement around the world from yellow vest in France and other social movements that have actually targeted I'm not saying that all the movement target luxury ban but some form of upstate have targeted luxury stores because of what they represent and that has resulted in this destruction and some aggressive behavior. In fact it has been this rising inequalities has been dubbed as the bigger threat for the luxury goods business and luxury consumers and time at times of uncertainty and unrest are actually scared to flaunt and are actually scared to consume publicly for the fear of being the subject of aggressive behavior. There has always been also been a shift in societal norms. Younger consumers, affluent consumers do not share the same values as previous generations did. They do not consume luxury brands for the same reason that previous generations did. Now they care about the values what the brand stands for. They want to pay their money for brands that are aligned with their own personal values and they want brands to play a more active role in society. All these reasons then make the luxury sector have to question the way it operates. It has to open to rethink its role in society and has to think of the challenges and the opportunities that these shifts also present for the sector. And such this focus on inclusivity has become a great opportunity to reconsider what is your purpose and what kind of value you can present not just to your immediate customers but also to a wide range of stakeholders. However this notion of inclusivity although it may present challenges to different sectors and a lot of other industries are also asking the same question. How can we become inclusive? It becomes extremely challenging for the luxury sector due to its business model and how it focuses on exclusivity and it thrives on this unequal distribution of wealth. And as such the luxury sector has to play it very carefully and have to really consider how can I become more inclusive without diluting my own exclusivity and my core value luxury perceptions. So for the industry to become inclusive I think it's extremely important then to understand what is inclusion as a concept and what are the different ways for us to become inclusive. Inclusion is also a very wide and ambiguous concept. It involves multiple dimensions. However if we are to look at the core aspects of inclusion it is about access. Access to mainstream society there are different dimensions of access access to economic institutions and opportunities to education to health to political institution the opportunity of freedom of expression and also providing this access have to be perceived by the communities that is the target of this inclusion initiative. So from an identity perspective we measure inclusion by feeling the perception of included. How do I feel that I'm gaining resources? So beyond the outreach programs beyond how institutions and governments and parents try to foster inclusion we have to actually look at these communities and those at the receiving end of these initiatives and whether they do feel included or not. And this inclusion has to be regardless of your socioeconomic background regardless of your ethnicity gender body shape and ability and sexual orientation or religious belief. So there are multiple dimensions of inclusion often some of which are intersecting as well. So we cannot say that inclusion means just economic inclusion no there are different and various forms of inclusion. And how can the luxury sector foster this idea of inclusion with its various dimensions again while carefully balancing its value perception and its business model that thrives on exclusivity. So what we're presenting here is a framework it's not clear conceptual definition between external and internal it's just for simplification of the different ways and the different opportunities that are present for the sector. On one hand luxury has been focusing on increasing diversity and inclusion internally whether through internal EDI equity diversity and inclusion policies through changing its hiring system and HR policies to hire more diverse employees across different organizations also including diverse and more representative people in their C suites. Also looking within the supply chain and this issue has been of increasing importance to the luxury sector and I would say many luxury brands have achieved significant strides in advancing their recent inclusion within their supply chain focusing on living wages human rights and to be honest this has not been a history it has not been a major problem for luxury brands as opposed to fast fashion because luxury brand thrives on developing the skills of craftmen people because they are part of the core value proposition they are part of the story and of the exceptional quality that are inherent for luxury brands. However there is much left to be done they are also focusing on gender balance within their supply chain and all these kinds of issues. So in a way focus on internal operations has not been a major issue and there is a major progress what has not been I'm not going to say neglected but what has not achieved as much attention is what we call externals. Externals still entails focus on the way you operate however it's more consumer facing. So what we're presenting here is an idea of inclusive marketing. How can your marketing activities become inclusive towards the consumers and the communities you serve? So when we review the literature on inclusive marketing we find there are different ways that luxury brands can incorporate inclusion in their offering whether it's their products and services whether it's the places whether it's their voice external voice I'm going to elaborate on some of these ideas in the next slide. So when we talk about the inclusion in the market place the first way that started and we've already seen that in the past few years is representation. Representation whether in your marketing communication representation and again in your C-suite and the people who work for you basically showing me that someone who looks like me can be part of the luxury brand world. Seeing that we're changing the ideas of the kind of role models and ambassadors that luxury brands used to work with we're having a wider spectrum of people who could be part of that luxury appeal. However some have accused these initial attempts of representation as more shallow or tokenism that it's not actually addressing wider structure problems and much deeper inequality and such there has been a call for more active inclusion beyond representation and representation is important and there has been a multitude of research that showed how representation can actually enhance the well-being of the community of communities and diverse population but beyond representation what else can be done so there are calls for more inclusive design design in your product services built environment how to make changes to incorporate these design to appeal to wider range of consumers regardless of the skin color their ability their body shape and also inclusive spaces how to design environments that can make people feel included and create these intangible connections and experiences that are more inclusive. I'm going to show you some of the attempts that luxury brands have done and also discuss with you and I would love to hear your feedback at the end of what else and what's more can be done. Only recently also that luxury brand have started addressing this idea of changing the product offering to appeal to or even just suit a wider range of consumers from different ethnic backgrounds this idea of nude color has been predominantly focused on white shade of nudes not addressing other consumers from ethnic different ethnic backgrounds so in the past few years we've seen how cosmetics brands have started presenting different shades and also luxury products such as shoes and bags and even clothing have started presenting and widening the range of offers to appeal to different ethnicities but the inclusivity has received it's now gaining more prominence in marketing however I would say 10 years ago you would rarely see brand offering that beyond certain sizes and luxury brands are even way behind fast fashion brands they are starting to present more collection that is inclusive of different body sizes however not all brands have joined this still called to do for more action for appealing to consumers from different religious backgrounds there has been an attempt on the left hand side so that was from a luxury brand Dolce & Gabbana on the right hand side it was it's a Nike campaign although Nike is not a luxury brand traditionally some people may perceive it as luxury brand although it's it's not necessarily exclusive the reason I combine these two images is basically to show how you can do it right if you are to become inclusive then you have to do the proper research and understanding of the target market to not to be accused of being walk washing or trying to just like gain market share without addressing the needs so the marketing campaign on the for the that was like an inclusive abaya collection for Muslim consumers that was extremely overpriced and we've seen they are using models that do not represent the body shape nor the ethnicity of the Muslim community that they were targeting however Nike's campaign was hugely successful as they used models that come from this background they actually created the product that fits the need of this athlete and it was hugely successful while the abaya collection was not will receive because it lacked understanding of the consumer to the point here is to pinpoint if you are to become inclusive in your product design then you actually have to do your research and address the concerns and the needs of the target consumer rather than rushing to make something just to get into the head news while without understanding what consumers actually want and whether it is indeed received by them as inclusive or not so these are all examples of inclusive design in terms of inclusive spaces some luxury brands have started creating spaces to promote art for wider range of consumers beyond the luxury consumer so we have fondation in in in in Paris for multiple luxury brands that offer free exhibitions even in London many luxury brands have sponsored exhibition that are completely open for the public to show them that this luxury experience is not reserved for certain type of customers however it's beyond that it is wider and it's more open for the public all these ideas present opportunities for luxury brands to be inclusive in terms of products in terms of service however what we're asking for is even beyond that we're asking for more luxury brands have great power and visibility they are in terms of economic power and in terms of global awareness they have a voice that many other brands in their sector and other sector listen to and they have this influence on consumers imagination and it's such not to use that voice is to miss a great opportunity so we're asking here for brands to even consider a wider range of stakeholders beyond their immediate consumers how can they play a more active role in society so we're proposing this idea of brand activism so brand activism at its core entails your willingness to take a stand to carry to take an action on various socio-economic and political issues that face society so these issues will definitely affect your immediate consumer but it also affects a wider range of stakeholders that are not your immediate luxury consumers this idea of brand activism has started gaining prominence in various years where luxury brands are starting and whether through their CEOs or through their marketing communication channels social media channels are addressing and taking clear stands on various topics that affect the publics and communities these actions can come in the form of statements it can come in the form of donations it can even come of the form of changing their entire marketing communication to address this topic at a certain period of time and also through advocacy and coalition and even more destructive forms such as boycotting some examples for instance when certain brands have addressed this idea of sexual harassment and clearly made a statement on consent during their fashion show that's one form of activism recently we're starting to see more and more brands have used their platform and their voice to address issues of Black Lives Matter so that's a store front at Mark Jacobs store addressing the death of George Floyd during the protests of Black Lives Matter we've seen how many in the recent events of Ukrainian war Russia's war on Ukraine we've seen how many luxury brands have taken a stand they have closed their stores and stopped operations in Russia there are other forms of activism where some brands are presenting are working with the Black communities in presenting collections form wider representation and to appease to that market by creating a collection with historically Black colleges for instance so that's another form of activism What do consumers think then about activism? It is controversial it is a novel area of research and also in industry many brands have started taking activist stance in the past few years but what do consumers think? We've done a small pre-test to ask consumers whether they think in the UK whether they think that luxury brands are inclusive and if they aren't what needs to be more done and we find that most consumers actually had negative attitude about inclusivity that they did not think what luxury brands do are enough surprisingly this protection was more prevalent among non-luxury consumer because luxury consumers sort of have what we call clean luxury policy they actually think luxury brands do much more than what actually happens so the negative attitudes are more prevalent among non-consumers so when we ask consumers then what needs to be done how do you think luxury brands should be more inclusive as you can see the first thing that came was script and pay work and workers write which is luxury brands are doing very well on this regard addressing climate change as we can see there is always an interconnection between climate and social because the impact of climate change has more negative impact on communities from nowhere social economic backgrounds we've seen how racial inequalities and gender inequalities also have scored high percentages as in important areas that luxury brands need to address followed by poverty and LGBT rights while public health and well-being came at the very end so all these present future opportunities for luxury brands and areas to address so what we can see is there's a big and opportune moment for luxury brands to use their voice to rethink and redefine their purpose and align their strategies for long-term value creation for the society and in order to do that luxury brands have to not look only internally of course it is needed however they also have to look into consumer-facing activities and also the wider role in society if they are to use their voice if they are to communicate and try to change to stimulate social change they are going to transform the way consumers behave they are going to change societal norms for the better and at the end I'd like to end it by saying that although the luxury sector is exclusive by product it can definitely be inclusive in its voice and its influence in society thank you thank you Dina that was an absolutely wonderful presentation and thank you for demystifying for us that luxury and social inequalities I don't necessarily have to be on opposing ends I think you've done a wonderful job of walking us through all of the opportunities that they lie for for luxury companies to use their voice to advocate for a more equal society essentially but so reflecting on this given that where luxury companies are the growth that they're really experiencing two questions I think that would be very interesting to explore but further is is there a certain risk for luxury brands if they become more vocal do you take a stance and also do you think there is a need for them to do so or can they carry on with business as usual thank you Jarrah and this is a very important point giving that luxury brands have been are inherently mysterious they focus they do not speak much and when they do speak the communications usually focus on building their brand image strengthening their brand association and enhancing their brand equity while they do not talk about other things however we live in unprecedented times now there's always a risk of speaking up so brand activism is inherently a controversial strategy however there's also a higher risk nowadays we're not speaking up because consumers demand the brands that they buy to address the challenges that we face so if the brand is to stay silent and to focus on launching its new collection while there is new war without addressing that at all it actually has a higher risk for the brand to appear tone-diff to lose its credibility and integrity among its consumers so while there is a risk of speaking up there is also a risk of not speaking up and as such my advice is for the brand to actually pick up authentically is to speak up only if they mean it if to speak up they actually have a clear stance but do not speak up just to follow the bandwagon and to as a PR campaign because consumers are very smart they are very aware of the brand history and their stances so do not walkwash consumers but I would say definitely there is there is nowadays there is a stronger need for brands to become transparent and to use their power and influence to accelerate behaviour change I think that you raise very important points particularly around authenticity and like the risk of inertia essentially that sometimes also you are overtaken by your competitors by other things that are happening in the industry I think those are just those are incredibly relevant points so would you say luxury brands can do that also in conversation with their consumers and how would you say they can start actually that conversation point with their consumers so it does not look like they are operating in a vacuum I think it is very important before to speak to their consumers is to actually do to mean it and that goes back to this point of the corporate purpose so if you just speak with your consumers without having this conversation internally then there is also a risk that you're just doing that as a PR stunt but I think it's very important to have to redefine rethink what is the purpose of my business and when I say that it does not mean that you have to redefine the purpose of your business to be completely about your external role absolutely not it's purpose of how we can be luxury how we can still be luxury and yet stay an active role in society and I think once you have you know your purpose you have determined your values then you can start exploring ways of how to communicate that with your consumers and if you have clear set of values that will be clear to consumers in various ways even if you do not speak to them directly so in a way purpose first values clear consistent actions and stands and then the external communication would come in and it will be an experiment experimentation periods because it will be different for different brands depending on their history their heritage their positioning and their image and what they stand for but what we're saying here is at least you should start having this conversation it may not be perfect at first again it may be different levels of communication depending on where you are but you have to start that is now is the right time absolutely I fully agree with that and I think also sort of starting that conversation about essentially stepping out of what does it mean for my business internally do I fulfill all of the EDI functions or like objectives that I've set myself but also kind of like stepping out outside of that comfort zone looking at what influence and like impact actually does my business have like on the wider realms of society and through that conversation establish that dialogue have I think one of the questions also that came through from the audience as well is well you've touched on it a couple of times that there is a certain amount of tension between the social inequalities piece and like what luxury business the core of luxury is what they thrive on as well as what essentially drives well pushes consumers to consume luxury goods so would you also kind of look at toward essentially look at the products themselves and like the accessibility of products because of course let's say if luxury companies would start a budget line just to make it financially more inclusive that might actually undermine all of the other values and objectives that company has kind of given you so like how would you bridge that gap how would you bridge that tension it's a very thank you John this is a very important question so I can I'm a firm believer believer that luxury can and should be inclusive however when we dissect what luxury is the product cannot and should not be inclusive in terms of socioeconomic as in socioeconomic inclusive as in what's what you mentioned this budget line that would be the end of luxury having said that there are usually the luxury strategy entails having a wide range of product lines so you have the more expensive lines you have mid-range and you have sort of some lines on the lower end and there has been a multitude of studies and research trying to look into how these like lower level lines or brand extensions or math teach lines affect the core value proposition and it usually have negative impact so when you're trying to look at the product to become more inclusive economically then that would be extremely harmful for the brand however another way to go around this is when we think of luxury it's not just the product luxury is an experience luxury is a value and aesthetic and symbolism and this could be extended to include people from different backgrounds and having and going back to this idea of inclusive spaces and then environment and our foundations and sharing the idea of luxury experiences I think that's the way to become more inclusive economically having people from wide different walks of life dream of this idea of luxury get to experience it and get one day to dream maybe I will work in luxury maybe I will be part of this luxury but stay away from the product because the product has to be exclusive if the product is no longer exclusive it will have a negative implication for the brand equity and the luxury value proposition and thank you that's a wonderful way of looking at it I believe and I think it very much explains where the product ends and the company starts and also vice versa I think we're having a wonderful stream of questions coming in so just a word in advance we may have to pick some of these up in a different format afterwards but I think one of the things you've also described is the values for the companies and having that aspirational making your mark on society working towards a more inclusive world and I think that is wonderful looking at the wider sustainability debate we're seeing more and more intersections between social and nature and climate however a lot of particular on the social side a lot of areas which includes a brand activism is voluntary binding into what a company chooses as their business strategy so kind of like how do you see that's sort of like from an industry wider industry perspective kind of like how can you see that the bar can be raised beyond voluntary commitments and making it dependent on business strategy more as an yeah a more inclusive but complex system from an industry perspective thank you Jen I would also say this applies to the aspect of environment while there is a lot of changes in regulation for environmental society some efforts are still pretty much voluntary by brands and for them trying to innovate and find solutions and become proactive and those brands are the winners of the future so I would say there might be changes in terms of regulation and there are already looking at inclusion within the supply chain living wages worker rights and all these are great advances but for brands to try to be more committed there they will never be a regulation for a brand to speak up or and take a stance on a socio-political issue but the brand's understanding how this would actually strengthen what the brand stands for strengthens its association with its current and aspiration and future consumers and make it a better brand it is a luxury its luxury is symbolic so you will become you will have stronger symbolic association when you do so then brands will want to do this more and more and again it's about being authentic and true to yourself rather than as an attempt to gain more market share so I would say the only way to keep committed is looking to how consumers are changing there is always a risk of becoming irrelevant so there is no legal requirements for you to speak up but if you stay silent for so many years maybe consumers are not going to relate to you anymore you're not going to be part of their values or the values they seek and how they we spend money now we say generation debt we spend with their values we spend money on the things that we believe in we no longer just spend to show off so that there are certain motivations for purchasing luxury that we inherited from previous generations but again each generation adds new set of values and all the marketing research studies and the new academic research show that those younger consumers have newer motivations have different interests and they demand this transparency so it is a benefit for the brand to do so rather than a legal requirement for them I think that was also wonderfully demonstrated in the graph that you showed us for a lot of the consumers climate change is one of the biggest concerns which of course derives from the recent debates that there have been not necessarily from that luxury luxury for example has a inherent image of not being green or climate friendly in a similar way which might be the connotation for the social inequality piece but actually that regardless the conversation is moving on and consumer expectations have shifted and I think that was wonderfully demonstrated so like in that side but I think it was like thinking about how to use their voice how to come across as authentic because in fact there's wonderful examples where for example Nike it succeeded whereas with others it's actually achieved the opposite underlining sort of the risk factor that comes with not being authentic of course the world of marketing is changing as well a lot of new channels and I think there is some sort of some tendency to particularly look at influencers and actually not have let's say the voice coming from your core company but also amplifying your voice through other actors going like how do you see that relationship between work between luxury companies working with influencers as almost a third voice and also luxury companies having almost a more corporate approach to the other image essentially I think it's a very important question and I would go back to the same point of what is your purpose and you have to be very careful of choosing the celebrity this influencer and the cause that really fits within your purpose rather than just going to any influencer that is really trending right now and trying to like have a campaign that is short term and you would have like more engagement more lights and and then after a couple of years we see nothing so in a way absolutely you can work with influencers if it will increase visibility it will put more light on into the cause not to your brand and not necessarily the influencer but into that cause that you're trying to address and that should be must be coupled and balanced with concrete actions so this voice and visibility are extremely important because if you're not quoting the queen you have to be seen to be believed but to be believed you also have to be consistent in your actions so whatever brings more visibility to the actions you're already making would be influential it's just a matter there's lots of studies about congruity and really carefully selecting your ambassadors into what fits your brand identity and all these elements you just have to be taken into consideration Yeah and that's a wonderful summary of kind of like how to address this I think another question I came through from the audience and they're slightly playing devil's advocate here because looking back at your presentation I think one may argue that a lot of a lot of the protests essentially that you've described a lot of the areas where consumers or have like spoken up against luxury companies aren't necessarily luxury consumers and you mentioned that there is a distinction between the consumer insights amongst luxury consumers and those who are not and that is quite hard also to get non-consumers to the point where they would like to consume or even and also thinking back on the accessibility piece there is still a certain element of economic inequality and you just can't make the product successful so kind of looking at that and I appreciate that luxury companies don't operate in a vacuum but where are the benefits for companies so why should a luxury company still reach out to the non-consumers and consider their opinions and insight and how to drive the conversation rather than the ones who are already the consumers Thank you Jana, this is a very important question I'll speak from an answer from two perspectives one perspective that if you are looking into your future growth and looking into your commercial profit is actually luxury strategy has always been about building dreams you are marketing for the wider masses to create the desirability and dream factor and then one day some of them may be actual consumers but you're never just marketing for your immediate consumers so this is just part of the traditional luxury marketing strategy historically we have to build those dreams and create that global awareness however the other part of the debate which actually pertains to my presentation and this is a question not just for luxury brands for a wider sector why should we care for a wider community and this debate has led to this I'm sure you've heard about this idea of stakeholder marketing it has people who are supporting the idea and of course some people are fighting this idea of how are you creating value for a wider range of stakeholders how we should think of our reconsider the value proposition and reconsider the recipient of this value proposition as including society at large so whether you're working in banking and financial institution whether you're working in luxury branding or whether you're working in FTG this idea of why you should play more active role and consider people who are not immediate consumers so it's not just for your commercial profit there are lots of debates for again commercial profit but it also I'm not going to say morality but because we live in one society and if this society teases to exist because of these challenges you're going to lose as well you're not going to be relevant to your industry your brand or your industry might not be relevant so we've seen how governments in many parts of the world have failed to address many challenges and that's why corporations are taking that role they have the financial means they have the resources they step up at times of crisis you've seen during covid many brands have immediately were able to change their factories to produce the products that were needed during and mask and other medical things way faster than government just because they have the facilities and the money so in a way if they did not do that the society at large might fail so there are commercial benefits but they're also the future viability of your business and your existence and your relevance depend on you playing a part of that role when we're facing challenges I think that was absolutely wonderful absolutely that is that was a wonderful answer Dina because I really agree and I think it is one can call it either cynicism or morality but it is by creating more equal societies at the end of the day you also create more economic power to them actually who might be able to afford more luxury products so it is it is quite it is an interesting viewpoint I fully understand and appreciate there is the two components to it where one is like from a purely business more short to medium term perspective but also the long term perspective because we do I know within CSL particularly within the sustainability space we like to refer to the word ecosystems but within wider society we all operate within an ecosystem and there are certain dynamics that you can't hold back from from like civil unrest like it is like you said looking at you current conflicts for example within Ukraine even if that was a market of yours if there is civil unrest it's very hard to operate in those markets we are almost at the end however I've got one last question for you Dina which is because you've just mentioned also there is a certain speed with which the conversation is moving but also with which the companies are moving with corporations have overtaken some of the governments in some areas but I think also looking at a lot of the luxury a lot of luxury companies they tend to be going to use the phrase steeped in history a lot of them do have a long-standing history and of course they're what they do has evolved over a long period of time and I think one may argue that they've been inherently slow to change just because they are so steeped in history there are so many reputational risks of course there are opportunities but what would you say your final words of also towards the luxury industry how can they accelerate the conversation and why is there a need to accelerate the transition to a more equal society this is a great question to end with I think how first of all it goes back to the same point over and over again you start to look internally within your brand to redefine your purpose or your risk being irrelevant we've seen some luxury brands that had this were a heritage brand they had historical roots and then they became completely irrelevant until they modernized what they are and what they stand for while staying true to your roots so in a way this conversation has to go to the purpose the values the people you work in what's your culture stands for you have to get everyone who works for you internally to believe in these new values and to see the need for change otherwise it's not going to work out so if you're just focusing on consumers and externally this is not going to work out it is slow because the industry relies its biggest asset its equity and luxury value proposition so if they are to lose that the risk being out of business but what we're showing here and a lot of research findings are showing that by actually addressing this wider role you are you're becoming a better brand in your own right so we do not see it as too conflicting we're just there are inherent paradoxes there are challenges but in a way if you do it right if you do it authentically then it's a great opportunity for you to thrive as a brand and to remain relevant consumers are changing societies are changing if you're not changing you may not be relevant so that's what I'm going to end up with and that was a wonderful point to end with and thank you so much for taking the time to walking us through our work it's been a real privilege working with you also over these last couple of years and I know you've got you've got still some time ahead of you like at CSR so very much looking forward where the next steps of this work are going to take you also thank you for everyone who's been listening to this debate for all the questions we haven't been able to address we will try to address them so in a written format and follow up on those so this session has been recorded so we will circulate a link to the recording as well and will be available through LinkedIn as well and I'm going to end with that we have one last installment in the series left next week and next week Caroline Lee is going to walk us through supermarkets and how they can help build resilience and well-being in local communities and all that's to say is like thank you very much Dina and thank you for everyone who's been listening thank you John