 Alright, now I'll hand it over to the reverse engineering team. Thank you. Defcon 26! Thank you! My name is John Tarani and I am the producer and editor of the project that we are presenting, Reverse Engineering. I've been working in entertainment for the past 15 years with a specialty in unscripted content. We're going to tell you about a great project that we've been working on. A project about you. And we're going to tell you how you can get involved and help bring the project to completion. Because after all, it is about you. So right now, let me bring up the, well, let me introduce the producer and director of Reverse Engineering, Michael Lee Nuremberg. Thank you, John. Thank you, Defcon 26, for having us to give this presentation. Some of you this weekend thought I might be a narc, which is not the case. I'm on your side. My partners and I suspect we find a receptive audience here. And so thank you again for having us. I'm at times a writer, filmmaker, and probably most known as a commercial artist in movies and TV. I directed a documentary on Hustler magazine that came out four years ago because my dad was our director in the 70s and 80s. So if you're interested in watching, it's easy to find. The reason I'm speaking to you today is that four years ago, we set out to make a documentary about the history of computer hacking. And to get this right involves bringing it to you because this is what you do. John. Okay, I'd also like to introduce another producer. You might know him as Bill from Arnok, Dave Buckwald. Hey, thank you. What's cooking, Defcon? My true given name is Dave Buckwald, and I'm a hacker and I'm a filmmaker and a visual artist. And dog willing on the 13th, I'm going to be 23 years sober. This was movie magic. Water. Well, we've been working on this project. Mike, how long have we been working on this for fun? You should ask John four years. I started when I was gifted a copy of this book, Masters of Deception, led me to Bruce Sterling's hacker crackdown, Stephen Levy's hackers, John Mark off with the door mouth said Phil absolutely exploding a phone a number of others that were landmark books of the of the early years of this thing. So after doing the research, I found that there was no major documentary documentary, much less a major docu series on the subject. And so we found a wormhole in the culture and the lane was open. So after doing the research, we just started finding people and filming them. The first being John Perry Barlow, which in retrospect turned out to be quite precious. I've always been the tech like many I came of age in the 90s. And it's fascinating by the early web, but I really didn't get really into it to the beginning of consumer broadband in the early 2000s. At that point, hacking the infancy had just passed. Now, they're great documentaries about specific hacking moments. I've turned out to be incredible resources for what we're doing. But after doing the research, we realized that there hasn't been a single film that speaks about this thing, the beginning of this thing to the broader non hacker world. And there's a lot of people who don't understand it or afraid of it. And it impacts their lives every day. Now, one of the things that made me want to be a part of the project was the connection to New York City. Now, upon meeting the hackers that we were interviewing like Dave, most of them are New York based and I'm a lifelong New Yorker. So while I was reading Masters of Deception, yeah, while I was reading Masters of Deception, I was able to visualize a lot of the places that they were talking about. I knew about the Green Acres Mall and the radio shack there where the kids would go to buy their computer parts and their modems and stuff. So I was able to visualize a lot of the places because I had already been there. And upon meeting Dave and, you know, the other people that from MOD and Masters of Deception, Legion of Doom, I was able to really identify with them just because, you know, I felt that, you know, I was like them and I would have been friends with them in school. So, you know, bringing Dave on as a producer for me was a no-brainer. And it would have been hard to be friends with me in school because I wasn't at school that often. I was behind my computer most of the time. And I'm here because in 1983, 1984, I got an Apple 2E and a little bit later, a blazing Apple Cat, blazing fast Apple Cat modem. And very soon after that, I discovered text files and TAP magazine, BBS's later 2600 magazine. And I was the lead singer of a group called Legion of Doom until I was busted by the Secret Service in the summer of 87. And I got my first taste of working in the film industry as a hacking consultant on a movie Hackers, which is not a documentary. Many of you have probably seen this wonderful piece. In the 90s, I was working as a computer security consultant with my old hacking buddy fiber optic until the .com bubble burst. And I got sick of making money anyway, so I decided to become a film editor. And I've always observed that the more you know about any given subject, the more kind of media distortion there is and, you know, the public perception gets so skewed. And working on this film is kind of my way of giving back to the hacker community and really, you know, presenting, you know, not just for a new generation of Hackers, but for general audiences, a kind of true depiction of what went on and what brought us to where we are now and in an entertaining and non-didactic way. So along with my two partners from the Hustler movie, John, Tarani and Flynn and I, we met Dave, all tracking down members of the early 90s, late 80s group Legion of Doom and turned out he was also in Brooklyn like the rest of us and made sense to join the team being a film editor, so he understood what we were trying to do. And it turns out to be a damn good film producer, which is how we ended up here. That's what I told them. I primarily do picture editing and producing, and I've always stayed close to my roots in the hacker world. I've been the cover artist in residence for 2600 magazine, doing all the covers since about 2001 and designing their t-shirts. It's funny, I see so many people wearing t-shirts here that I designed, you know, behind my little computer, so that's always cool. And it's funny what kind of started as just like an impromptu interview in my boiler room has bloomed into this like Herculean task of trying to document hacker history. So I alluded to, we're going to show the 20 minute clip, so we alluded to this earlier, but there's very few documentaries about the original hacker generations. Currently there's a great many of them being made about contemporary hacking because it's much more sexy to film, but it's easier to do. The existing documentaries they are basic cable or homemade YouTube documentaries designed for other hackers, more or less. Some of them have been quite good. My personal favorites, Annalisa Savage's unauthorized access because he was the first and he captured these guys in the moment before the law closed in on them. There's also a manual Goldstein's freedom downtime which is about Kevin Mitnick and his case and Jason Scott's ambitious eight part documentary series on BBS boards. So we're doing something different so we can entertain like I mentioned earlier the non hacker community and pandering to the old school media sort of bullshit scare tactics by talking to people who are actually there. So John, you want to set up the scene? Sure. Right now we're going to show you guys a chunk of the movie. Now all three of us had our hands in making this and please remember it is a work in progress. Right. It's important to note that none of the music has been cleared because it's only tipped in. You clear that when you have the lawyers you do the last step because it costs so much money. The sound of the color isn't mixed yet for the same reason. And we feel this stage is only right that we share it with the hacker community so we can get your input to what we can what else we could do with it because it's big. It's gonna be three parts. I can't I have to watch it with you because I'm tethered to the thing I can't walk away. So we're just terrifying. Yeah, John. Yeah. Well, it's I mean no one's gonna walk out because it's it's edited really well whoever edited it. So let's show it to you now. He's all right. But after we're done here we're going to explain what the three parts are and we can't dim the lights because because it's the rule. Pretend that you're in a movie theater right now. The ambiance the chandeliers. We take these down. No, no, no, no, nothing. I don't know. All right. Enjoy. Today five hackers were indicted on federal wire fraud charges and NBC's Gary Matsumoto found their leader in an unlikely setting. That's fiber optic with a pH described by some as a computer genius by others as a computer anarchist. When you're a little kid growing up, you kind of feel like you don't really have any control over what's going on. As far as what was going on in the news around us in the 80s, the Soviet Union was still a very real thing. We were worried about nuclear war. Ronald Reagan and Gorbachev that are negotiating the stuff and you're hoping it turns out okay. But you really don't know from one day to the next if one day everybody's just going to blow up. This permeated culture was in movies. It was in music and it was some scary shit. Getting online and sort of becoming part of this computer underground was something that we felt that we had control over in a world that we had really no place in. York was nothing like how it is now. It was the crack epidemic of huge proportions, drugs in the street, violence everywhere. So you have to be constantly aware and that sort of hyper-awareness translated into breaking into computers and out of that came a new class of people, hackers. Young people that had new technology inside out had grew up with it and could see the networks that were evolving right before our eyes and could see where it was going and play with it, build around it, interrupt it. In some ways the kind of curiosity that could only be generated inside of like a busy place like New York City. At the very beginning it was about a shared interest in an illicit world of information and initially there were no barriers. This was a world that was free to import and subterranean and secret and accessible. At that particular time the internet existed but you know most people weren't really on it unless you were at university or worked for one of the various agencies you know in the scientific or military but it was a rise of like these online BBSs and these networks. BBS stands for Bulletin Board System and this was how people would communicate with other people that also had personal computers. Once a computer is equipped with a modem it can both send and receive messages to and from any other computer in the world that is also equipped with a similar sort of modem. The first time that I tell netted another machine halfway across the country I realized that I was connected to that computer way over there. It was a religious experience. A friend showed me this and he said yeah I'm calling up these Bulletin Board Systems and you can do all these things with them. You would call a phone number, put it into a cradle and then it would answer and you'd be able to talk to the computer and then you end up with a bunch of strings of characters and people's names and I just thought this was insane. I thought this was the greatest thing ever. It was very very slow. It would take days for messages to arrive sometimes. The kid whose parents had an extra phone line would leave his computer hooked up to the phone all the time so that you could call to that computer or someone who calls into some other computer far away and this computer called that one called that one. So it was a completely kind of ad hoc mesh of computers. You don't know where this is. You don't know how it's being done and at the time that's beyond belief. The first one I got on was called Q-Link which was the precursor to AOL and I got on there and I didn't fit in that anymore. I'm like yo who here likes Bismarck E and they were like yo nobody likes black music. I was like oh man it was like and I got like trolled by like a guy. His name was like NKOTV like new kids on the block and there's a whole bunch of posts about hacking and I'm like holy shit hacking breaking into computers sounds kind of cool. The computer underground in the 80s was the age of exploration and that's in stark contrast to whatever semblance of an underground exists today. It's not about exploration. It's about theft. It's about bank fraud. It's about monetary gain unfortunately. You're really into computers huh? Yeah. Dying into the school's computer. They change the password every couple of weeks but I know where they write it down. One of the biggest films I think had the huge impact on me that came out in the early 80s was Wargames. About a kid who's looking for a video game company. He's a hacker. A lot of the things they show in the movie are true to life as far as how he goes about looking for systems, scanning telephone exchanges for modems and so on. I can't tell you how many different hackers I've interviewed. He said I watched that film. I asked for a modem for Christmas. It was at that point that the word hackers which nobody really knew in society took on a new meaning. Hacker before had been someone at MIT AI who was a programmer and nobody ever saw them and hacker after Wargames was a kid you know with Acne who was about 15 who broke into computers. These bands of teenagers would begin exploring these things and they would do sometimes fun things, sometimes listen to things. All these bulletin board geeks were, they were a funny bunch. They were basically just punkers and if somebody took their skateboards and gave them modems it wouldn't make much difference. It was not unusual to find a system with a default login with no password even on some relatively important systems and you know is this wrong or right it doesn't really enter your mind. You're really doing it more out of curiosity. I was a phone freak and a hacker. It's like I love telephones so just a computer itself was too small. I liked networks and there was no computer network as large as the PSTN the public switch telephone network. The first modem I got was a family friend was like getting rid of an old thunderbolt modem. That was pretty much the beginning of like my road to sort of you know being a hacker into what I do now. There's this big machine how do you like you know get inside it and take it apart and play with it and then also how do you use it to create mischief. Eventually I was able to like finagle an apple cat out of my parents. The apple cat could generate sound effects so you could actually use it as a blue box and do all kinds of things with it that you could do with an ordinary modem. That one was life changing because it was a very programmable modem. You could produce any tone that you wanted including the control tones for in-band signalling on phone networks and basically take control become an operator and just do anything that you wanted. It's pretty magical when you're a kid and you suddenly realize hey I can control the phone system. Growing up in San Antonio, Texas there really weren't any other hackers there. The big scene in the early 80s was primarily centered around New York, New Jersey and so that's where I ended up gravitating and that's where I ended up meeting a bunch of like-minded people. There began to appear hacker groups which were loose affiliations of kids typically that never met each other. They didn't know each other's identity or any of that. They came up with an alias, a handle and that's how they affiliated on these BBSs. I picked Eric Bloodaxe because I read a really cool book about Vikings. Sounded cool. My first name's Eric and so Eric Bloodaxe went from bulletin board to bulletin board around the United States. Now you have this knowledge base that's forming of systems, how to use them and how to maintain access to them. It was those early BBSs that turned into what we referred to as the elite BBSs. 13 of us will form the most powerful and sinister group the world has ever seen. From now on we'll be known as the Legion of Doom. Legion of Doom was a super group of hackers who were let's say the very top of the game. I read about the Legion of Doom and I said like fuck if these guys can do that I can do that and I basically went out and became the head of the Legion of Doom. It was like a popularity contest. I had this kind of overview of the inner workings of AT&T better than maybe any one single employee. I would get off on being able to listen in on a phone call or prank pulling like you know you turn somebody's phone into a pay phone. Somebody picks up the phone, that was the phone to make a phone call and they get a recording telling them to deposit a quarter or taking a pay phone and turning it into a home phone. That was what would help you gain popularity. Did somebody hack you? You try to figure out a way how to hack them back. It was sort of a pranksterism. We broke into a ton of shit. I mean I broke into companies that you know you would just be like shocked at like the level of data that's stored. There's a very very strong ethos among hacker underground communities to keep quiet. If you're calling attention to yourself through these kind of audacious hacks and groups, guess who's going to come knocking? It was really hard to get in trouble unless you were just doing something really wrong or really misguided. That you were drawing unnecessary attention to yourself. People considered Legion of Doom to be sort of a pinnacle of the computer underground. That didn't just end at the edge of the computer bulletin boards. People within the regional bell operating companies knew who Legion of Doom was. People within the FBI and the Secret Service knew who the Legion of Doom was. People in you know corporate security for credit bureaus knew who Legion of Doom was. Law enforcement didn't really know how to deal with it I think at the time because it was so new. There were laws going back to the 30s from telecommunications like Wire Fraud, the Wire Fraud Act which could be considered most anything. There was in I think it was around 1986 the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act which was largely untested. It was certainly was never tested on anyone in the mid-80s. By the late 80s and early 90s it was the thing that they were using to prosecute a lot of us. But they were really just trying to make a lot of noise to show the public and the government that they were doing something about the problem. It's a threat to big business. It's some kind of threat to infrastructure and this is how to stop it by kicking indoors and seizing computers. You know they weren't that tech savvy the Secret Service in those days. It seemed more like they just wanted to shut it down and make everyone stop doing what they were doing. So they came to my house in a UPS truck and an assistant district attorney rang my doorbell and said he was from UPS and asked my dad to sign the clipboard. He says where's the package? And he goes bring in the package! The back of the van rolls up and you know guys with sledgehammers and there were guys with guns drawn come out of the back of this UPS van or taking computers and taking notebooks. They weren't trying to put anybody in jail. They were just basically trying to scare people into stopping. There was one guy I knew that said that when the FBI came to his parents house to arrest him they took all of these computers but left all these very important computer security books that had tons of information because they didn't actually know what they were. There was a kid I think he was in Indiana. He got arrested for some kind of calling card fraud. They saw he was all involved in computers and they said you're a computer hacker are you a legion of doom? He goes no but I know some people who are and that ultimately led to me being rated. I don't think you have to be that smart to know that if you get raided by a three letter agency and you never go to jail you must have sung like a bird. Our top story at five a massive offensive by the U.S. Secret Service against illegal computer hackers. Search warrants are going out here in Chicago and it does in other cities coast to coast in an effort to stop computer fraud that is costing companies and consumers millions of dollars. When law enforcement really started making its presence known busting into people's homes and and seizing their their computers this affected a growing number of people that I knew. There were certain individuals who kind of thumb their nose at the whole thing and kind of had a more daring attitude at a time when what modesty probably would have been better course of action. It was probably around that time that I had falling out with with a particular LOD member who by de facto found himself in charge of the group. Trying to put together one of the technical journals I had was trying to map out different packet switch networks to identify all the computers that existed on a particular network. I knew fiber optic had access to information about the internal setup of the x-25 network used by 9x which was the New York telephone company and I was like all right well can you give me a breakdown of what's on the 9x packet switch network so I can include in the directory and he said yeah yeah sure I'll get that to you. He says if I give you that you need to give me this other thing like well that's not mine to give so then later on Mark calls this other friend of ours guy named Bob he says hey Bob Chris told me to call you and get the login for this system he didn't have it handy and I need it now because I'm trying to work on this thing and he needs something from me so if you just give me the login to this this machine so Mark got the account ended up getting that account locked out so now we lost our access to that system so I found out about this later on and I called everybody else and we did a doom and I said we need to kick this guy out so he hooked up with a bunch of his friends in New York and started another group called Masters of Deception. LOD was falling apart people were getting we're getting busted by by the government now a group that we had once respected that I myself was affiliated with was going off on a strange path that we didn't really agree with. M.O.D. was supposed to be just a joke playing off of LOD a little big but evidently there wasn't enough room for both of us on the networks of the world and it erupted eventually into something called a great hacker work where we start trying to hack each other which was a lot of fun but also caused a lot of trouble from then on out the deal was let's get Goggins let's get LOD. Great Hacker War was basically a disagreement between guys that I knew and one of the members of LOD who let's just say we thought was engaging in some questionable behavior as far as potentially turning in other hackers wasn't really considered a war until the media turned this into a gang war in cyberspace especially in the 80s gang violence was common so I mean just writing off hacker groups as just the online version of violent gangs made it easier for law enforcement or people to to visualize oh this is wrong this is bad. We are experiencing a crime wave in the computer area that is just astronomical we can't keep up nobody who's working in this field can keep up this is not victimless crime we are all victims well the media needs to have a villain and in something involving computers or technology very easy to label somebody who is smart and a bit mischievous as the villain because nobody's really going to understand what it is they're doing and they generate fear. The problem wasn't really ever identified it was just sort of a speech that was repeated over and over again by prosecutors and law enforcement that there is some kind of hacker menace it needs to be stopped by sending kids teenagers to jail. For you catch the man I hope he caught you seems about the same amount of people I think. I was better than I thought it would be. Yeah you know. Yeah so who wouldn't want to be a part of that. Okay so. Sure am I well again I'm glad that you some of you stayed and I'm interested enough to hear us out. We're doing the series in three parts because it's so big we can't compress into the old 90-minute documentary format so part one is about the origin story of computer hacking several concurrent trends were evolving to create the conditions that led to the personal computer. In the section we meet the first generation of phone freaks the corporations have created the personal computer and the first hackers emerged from MIT and Stanford the government developed the ARPANET. All these unique conditions are just right to develop the personal computer. John. Now for those of us who were born after 1990 Dave can you explain what phone freaking is. Yeah we talked about a little bit in the clip we showed the phone network was the you know largest vast wide-ranging network in the world and you know back then I try to tell this to my kids now you know phones didn't have cameras or apps or touch screens and you know my bell was a cheap mother but you can pick up your phone you can make a couple of tones and be connected to anyone anywhere in the world make somebody's a bell ring in somebody's house at three in the morning on the other side of the world and the hacker spirit was there and I knew there was a lot going on beneath the surface and the trick was finding out about it and there you know there wasn't Google and there weren't BBS's that you could log on to but there were technical journals and internal manuals and reverse engineering that the early groups of you know freaks learned to you know figure out this network from the inside out and you know part of the beauty of a lot of these early networks is security was an afterthought if it was there at all and it was kind of uncharted territory back then and I remember an old phone freak friend of mine told me and this is back when I was a little little kid that used to be able to call into they discovered you call into the White House and you get the switchboard operator and politely get them to get off the phone with you and you just sit there and you're on like an empty line there's no sound at all and then a minute later you hear a click and the next inbound call coming into the president is connected to you so as many of you know hacking meant something different at first and why this is very obvious to Def Con attendees it's not broadly known and I mentioned a great many books on the origins of computer phone hacking but there's a pranksterism that that wasn't yet malicious but aside from freaking there's a moment where big university computers are being installed in in universities as I mentioned earlier much with the hacking movement can be traced back to 1960s MIT in Stanford's AI lab this the grad students in electrical engineering became interested in these machines which had the time share the hack to test the boundaries which is where we get the term from they never would have predicted all the things you were doing now much like the title reverse engineering suggests we kind of have to work backwards as filmmakers so we're always asking who came before them and who came before them right the the lore of Steve Jobs and Steve Watson creating apples a story we all know but the culture that they emerged from is far undervalued and what is for our purposes but we're interested in exploring so part two is about the personal computer and the individual like the last section several concurrent trends emerge at the same time electrical engineering students we get jobs at places like Intel Xerox Park IBM he'll at Packard the homebrew computer club and the people's computer company start up and computer hobbies get together after hours to exchange information freakers to become interested there's a race to invent the personal computer this is well known bay areas rock culture psychedelic drug self-help gurus and hippie scenes emerge with the nascent Silicon Valley the third part of the series where you saw an excerpt from you know we were thinking of this you know the war games and post war games generation and I mean who thought at the time that this film would come out that would kind of motivate you know a whole generation of teens and pre-teens to get into computers and go outfit their computers with modems right and part three we concentrate on the kids grew up with the modem and how that changed the worlds you saw in the clip personal computers make their way into the market and popular culture modems open up the early web and creating a population explosion teen hacker cultures emerge government closed in law and arrest result and the internet goes mainstream so Dave yeah can you tell us a story from when you were a little boy sure when I was a teenager exploring other people's computer networks it was a simpler time I remember my dad used to regale me with stories about he was a kid they would go to the movies with 12 cents and they'd be able to take a trolley to the movies and have something to eat and go back home again and he also used to tell me like 1200 bought is the fastest you're ever going to get data to travel over a twisted copper pair and it was simpler times and times change and you know but back in the 80s you would find you know systems that were wide open with default passwords or no passwords at all with documented source code and compilers on board and and you know we would back door these systems so even if we were discovered you know by that point you know it was you know the point was moot one of my favorite things we used to do is make it that if you would type P Floyd at the login prompt you'd be dropped down to a root shell and you know these things got backed up and you know passed on to the you know the upgrades of the the systems as they went on and you know you know one of the things that's important to really keep in mind is you know a sense of history and how you know you know things like plastic whistles and punch cards will you know give way to you know teens depositing of source code on open source you know github repositories and landing these cush jobs at Google and Amazon by the time their peach fuzz is turning it to a neck beard and how each you know iteration of of hackers gives into the next generation until you know we wind up here today at DEFCON 26 right we're almost done before we open the Florida questions I'd like to make some few points that we recognize it's an international story and because it's a medium with time space limitations we have to limit it to American hacking from the late 50s to the early 90s before it becomes mainstream so it's pretty well covered by other people after a certain time frame and we haven't quite defined where to land it the what was happening in the early 90s with Kevin Mitnick story seems like a good place as any but we're interested in maybe figuring out what really is the end of the first generation of it and it's a nonlinear story so maybe you can help us figure out where the line is so thanks for your time and thanks for staying yeah I mean just you know we need help and you know insight is important which is why we wanted to kind of bring this out to the hacker community now you know what we're still what we're still in the process of of taping interviews you know we need help finding the kind of buried stories that you know shape the shape the world that have been forgotten and also finally you know the old timers before they become buried people and kind of find you know the anonymous people who wouldn't give an interview ten years ago and you know the unsung heroes and even like the you know telco security dudes and prosecutors and and feds that were around in that time period who helped kind of shape the perception and shape the community so before we take questions I just want to thank everyone for coming we've got stickers on the table outside everybody grab a sticker on your way out most importantly I need to I need to clarify this presentation okay although we are still looking for investment partners we are looking for investment partners this presentation was not about that okay that's not what this presentation was for that's what the bar is for okay so we're gonna be here all weekend please come find us so we'll also be at snack it's Maximus and snack we saw this the snack is Maximus so we're gonna we're gonna hit that too so at one of the party either karaoke this karaoke tonight we'll be at that we will now open the floor to questions oh great there's no questions you sir glasses well really anybody we want to we want to put this into plain language that anybody can understand Mike and I are lay people we are not right is that the word yeah yeah we're we don't we don't we went to a couple of other talks to see what they're like and the whole time we're like Dave what the fuck are they talking about what is it what is about oh okay there was a guy there was a kid in here before I just thought he was like wrestling with his pen he kept like going like this with his pen and I had no way I just I didn't know what I had no idea what his thing was about so so it's we're gonna try to put it into plain language that anybody can understand because it's fascinating yeah from a cultural standpoint it's aside from the tech aspect of it it's as a cultural phenomenon changed the way we live our lives anybody else you sir also glasses and beard well we were talking about this earlier basically we've done about 19 or 20 some odd interviews but we've got about a hundred interviews we want to do we've got a lot of people who who've come out and said they they want to be interviewed and so there's other people are seeking out and there's other people that are have approached us so it's just people are starting to find out about what we're doing it's difficult with the whole multi-generational layer to it and like finding people that were active in this stuff in the in the mid 60s you know puts them in there you know some of them in their 80s now oh yeah we got to get the dead people you know it's like we got it actually we're gonna dig up dead people to you so over there hell yeah we are yep yep yes yes do you know him we can get it I know so yeah I don't think that's how hard we got but yes yes you know you in the center you saw your hand go up oh reverse engineering this one reverse engineering boom boom who else who anybody else got a question anybody guys suggestion what didn't you like what was not good about it oh what you didn't we like criticism oh you also glasses back to you hell yeah this but I mean the thing which is difficult about playing such a small each of the parts that we talked about is gonna be you know if we're doing it is is feature length it's gonna be running approximately an hour to an hour and a half and go in you know kind of drill down with that detail on but that's errors and the different things and what we showed is not to be construed as a picture of what there was it's just like it's a scene from a section not a the entire section per se we which is why we want to do in three parts because it's a massive story I mean it's not as simple as like like we were talking about the old documentary format which was 90 minutes like the hustler move that him and I did when that came out we were only able to get a major distributor because it was 90 minutes because it was the the package and that was like four years ago now it's changed like everything is everything series now yeah I mean better streaming services and you know what's a series looking you know talking you know HBO and Netflix and things along those lines it allows for like longer form documentary series to allow you to to cover the big picture you stretch out so that was a compliment any more compliments yeah thank you thank you oh you sir in the blue shirt the clip is we're still making it yeah this that we want to talk to you talk I know about you the the sample scene that we showed is on our website and there's also a short sales reel it's like a you know two-minute sizzle is the end will take term we'll take I hate but uh there's a short the sizzle reel and as well as the sample scene so up find us at the bar well you know him already that's our man wait oh yeah that's Steve that was good what up Steve thank you so I so how do we reconcile what the the sort of modern well no it turned out somewhat dystopian right it started out with all this utopian promise especially you look at the stuff from the 60s at the dawn of the you know we're like the psychedelic Bay Area and it all kind of comes together under this utopian shell it did change everything it may not be the way we that the computer culture had wanted to be I think some of the utopia is a kind of a carrot on a stick it's like always as new technologies emerge it's always like oh but you know you know networking is going to save us and the internet of things is going to save us and and it's it's always something to strive for and some of it it's still quite utopian some of it you know it's not all terrible some of it's terrible you know no election hacking but I saw we got we got three yeah all right you first we'd love to it's just hard enough money for the original part you know but yeah we'd love to I mean I'd love to do I'd love to do 12 parts you know we're super ambitious yeah there's no sure there's no shortage of sauce of source material that I mean part of the thing kind of in the filmmaking standpoint is like we want to have as much first first hand and first party account as we possibly can you know first person interviews and with the time frame that's going on we're on the the the far end of the curve now and we need to do like we have John Perry Barlow and we sat down with him for four and a half hours that's not possible today and it's a shame because it would be nice to go back to him after we talk to other people and say well you know some of these other people said this and you know what what else can you say about this to be in a different part and it's not possible anymore so you know it's especially when you're documenting the past it's that has to be given priority because it's fleeting unfortunately one more point on this is the last documentary I made with him that the the one on hustler magazine there's five people in it who are dead you know which is which you know that the clock is always running one of them went to the electric chair well lethal injection but anyway guy from Moe were you were you have were you at Mohawk on yeah yeah did you win I think we're giving the time signal oh oh sorry one minute oh Mohawk your last question what do I think at the time it was it was pretty funny I mean it was it was right after this Esquire article about hackers had come out and the Michelle Pfeiffer on the cover of the issue and and I mean it was Rafael who wrote the screenplay came to a lot of the 2600 meetings and knew a lot of kind of local New York people and tried to bring them in either personality wise or handle wise and then the whole thing got hollywooded and and then with a layer of British directing of American events on top it was fun I mean I enjoyed it you know I like filmmaking so I enjoy it on that level but I mean it's it's it's storytelling and it's it's fictional I expected you all to dress like that can we can we take any more are we okay we take one more are we good okay all right thank you so much on 26 thank you