 Oh, man. This episode is controversial. We had Zubi on the podcast. He's a Oxford educated hip hop artist, social commentator, political commentator, very smart gentleman, very outspoken, very logical. It's hard to counter a lot of his arguments. Even if you disagree with him, he just, he's a smart person. Millions of followers because of his commentary. And today's episode is three hours long and we didn't leave anything untouched. Literally we talked about every single controversial topic you can think of. So we know you're going to enjoy this episode. Check it out. All right, Zubi, thanks for coming on the show, man. So I wanted to open with this. So you're, you're a young man, you're black hip hop artists for all intents and purposes. Your opinions are very different from what a lot of people would assume, right? People would think, oh, he's young, he's minority, he's in hip hop. He's going to have these opinions. And they're very counter from a lot of people would imagine you having. What motivates you? What made you have these opinions or why do you think the way you do? And how is it received? Yeah, it's a good question. I think it's a tricky one to answer because I think it's difficult for any of us to know exactly why we are the way we are and think the way we think. I guess it's a combination of both nature and nurture. I know for sure I have a pretty unique personality type. It's extreme in various dimensions. If you go off the sort of big five personality model, extraordinarily low in some things and incredibly high in other things. And I've always been that way. I also grew up in unique circumstances in various ways. So I'm one of, I'm one of five kids. My parents are originally from Nigeria. My family is Ebo. And I was born in the UK. There's a lot of people know I actually grew up in the Middle East. I lived in Saudi Arabia for 20 years from the age of one. I went to school there from kindergarten to fifth grade. I was in the American schooling system, which is why I don't even sound British. I've never had a British accent before. But I'm also the only person in my family with this accent, which is funny. When I was 11 years old, I went to boarding school in the UK. So from the age of 11, I was traveling internationally by myself back and forth between Saudi Arabia and the UK multiple times per year. I was in boarding school for seven years, went to two different schools, did really well in school, got into Oxford University, studied computer science there. That's also where I began my music career, graduated when I was 20. And then I did music full time for a year after graduating. And then I worked in corporate for about three years as a management consultant for one of the big companies. And then I, in November 2011, I took the big leap and went and pursued my music career full time. So for the past 11 plus years, I've been self employed. And I've just been on this adventure. It just started out with only doing music. Anyone who knew me prior to 2019 really would have just known me as a musician and as an artist. And then in the past four years, I've added all these additional strings to the bow. My podcast, Real Talk with Zubi, I've written and released two books now. I've been doing public speaking events around the world, just social media commentary, socio-political, cultural stuff. A lot of people know me for that now just for speaking out on all these various issues. And yeah, it's been quite a journey. So looping background to the original question, I think it's just this combination of my upbringing and experiences, my personality type, and then the way, just the way I view the world. I guess I've just always had a different angle of how I view certain things compared to how most people do. All right, everybody, this is a big episode. We had Zubi on the podcast, very controversial episode. So I'm going to do a huge giveaway. I'm going to give away the Maps Super Bundle. This bundle includes, I believe, four or five Maps programs. You can get them all for free, but you have to do this. Leave a comment below this video in the first 24 hours that we drop this episode. Subscribe to this channel. And then what we'll do is go through the comments, find the best one, and we'll notify you in the comment section if you won the Super Bundle for free. Also, we have three workout program bundles on sale this month. Each one is $300 or more off. Each one is up to nine months of planned workouts. If you want to learn more or you just want to sign up, click on the link at the top of the description below to sign up. All right, here comes the show. So you didn't feel one particular way and then have a moment that meant that made you a shift. No, you've always kind of questioned and kind of went counter or just look for things for yourself. I don't even know if it's counter because what's funny is some people consider me controversial or polarizing. And I think like 90% of the world agrees with most of my positions. Yeah, so talk about that because you know why? Because I think I agree with you, but it doesn't feel that way. It feels like it's 90 the other way, 10% with some of your views. Well, I think this is something interesting that's happened particularly in this age of social media, which is where you can make a very small minority look like either a majority or a very big minority. So you can have 3% of the population that holds a certain opinion. And with the power of the internet and even traditional media, that 3% can be made to look like 50 or 60%. So the truth is most people are sane and most people are relatively moderate when it comes to social, cultural, political views. Like there aren't that many people who are actually far right or actually far left or full on, you know, like those are rare positions, even with all the what people now call the woke stuff, right? Like what percentage of people are genuinely like hardcore died in the wool wokies? Like it's not a big percentage of person. Yeah, it's they exist for sure. And I have come across them in person, but it's not it's not huge swathes of the population. It's not even the sort of typical left leaning democratic or labor voter, you know, anything like that. But with social media and also with the chilling effect, what can happen is that most people stay quiet. I think this is one of the fundamental differences between me and most people is that I won't be quiet, right? I won't just acquiesce and go along to get along if I have something I want to say that is counter to that 3% or whatever I will say I will be the one who says no, a man cannot be a woman, a woman cannot be a man, women cannot have penises, men cannot get pregnant. Everyone in the world knows this to be true, right? Ten years ago, no one would have even felt the need to say this because it wasn't up for debate. But we're living in an age of denial of denial of reality coupled with cowardice. That's probably the best way to put it. So it's not even that most people cannot see through certain things, it's just that most people will not speak up, right? Everybody know, look at the last couple years, everyone knows that it makes no sense to for someone to wear a mask as you enter a restaurant and then to sit down and take it off, eat for two hours with no mask on, stand up, put it back on, walk around like, it's goofy, right? It makes no sense. It's a logical. Everyone is walking around the street or in a forest by yourself or driving around in a car by yourself with a map. Everyone, it makes no sense. It's silliness, right? But people are doing it and going along with it because as human beings, we're very social creatures, right? And so it makes sense that the greatest fear in the world next to death is fear of social disapproval. That's the greatest fear, right? The majority of adults are afraid of public speaking. They're not really afraid of public speaking because we all speak all the time. It's not that you're afraid to talk. It's that you're afraid of looking foolish in front of your peers. You're afraid of tripping up as you walk on stage. You're afraid of saying the wrong thing and looking silly, right? People say, oh, I want to start a YouTube channel. I want to write a book. I want to start a podcast. But you know, it's this and this. The only thing that holds them back is fear of social disapproval, right? They don't want to put up a video and oh, people leave negative comments or they downvoted or it doesn't get as many views as they want. And so they look silly. All of these things, all the things that people want to do that they don't, majority of the time, it's that fear of social disapproval that holds them back. And it's not even that that's something that is inherently bad. It exists for a reason, right? There are, you know, shame is not a, it's a neutral thing, right? There are certain things that you should feel shame about or you should be concerned about social disapproval. I think it evolutionarily exists because there's value to it as well. Yeah, there's absolutely value to it. But I think that a lot of these basic biological things that are wired in us, they can be triggered and set off by the wrong things. Do you see what I mean? So we have a natural, it's well studied, for example, that human beings, people, we are, we're more sensitive to negative and to threats than we are to positive, for example, right? So if this podcast goes out there and 1000 people leave a positive comment and five leave negative ones or harsh ones, those five stick out, you're not there focusing on the 1000 of wow, like people really like this. It's like, man, why did that guy say, why did that guy say that mean thing? You know, you get 2000 likes and 80 dislikes. What's up with those 80? Right? That's how we are. And I think that's because it makes sense to be, you know, we're ultimately built to survive. Right? We're built to survive. We're always trying to perceive threats and dangers and things like that. And now that we live in this very comfortable society, where let's be honest, like the real dangers of nature or of wildlife or day to day survival, famine, disease, all those type of things, they've mostly been taken care of, right? On a day to day basis, you're not overly concerned about just survival. How are we going to get our next meal? We don't need to go out and hunt and kill to eat. But I think that but we still have that same wiring. So I think that the things that set off those threat detectors become more minor and more minor, like the bar keeps on decreasing on what it is that people are so fearful of. Yeah, so I want to comment on that because just to back you up, first off, for most of human history, if you were ostracized, that meant you died. Yes. So it's a top fear because they're because it was a real risk for your life. And have you seen those studies where people and these are funny studies, but they're they're real. And there's the people doctor's office where they yeah, people walk into a doctor's office, everybody's actors, except for the person walking in, a bell will go off. Everybody will stand up and sit down. After about two or three times, the person who's not the actor just follows along where they'll be like an elevator and everybody's lined up in single file, facing the wrong way. And the person naturally gets behind everybody just does the same thing. So I think that proves what you're saying that it's extremely powerful. So along those lines, do you think that this minority of crazy voices is popular because of algorithms and clicks? Or do you think that there's something more nefarious? In other words, do you think that people are taking advantage of this fear mechanism that we have for being socially ostracized and are using it to keep everybody else silenced? So that this appears to be the the majority. And if that's the case, then why? And also how much of it do you think is artificially engineered? So I think this stuff, I mean, if you really want to go deep, it goes back many, many decades. There's been what's called the Long March through the institutions. So you know, if you really want to go to the origins of what again, like what people now call woke ism or cultural Marxism or, you know, these sort of, honestly, far far left ideas, which have now got a grasp of, of course, academia, but also in entertainment, some elements of big tech, other institutions. A lot of this has been intentionally planned for many decades since far many, many decades before I was born. You could go back to the to the Frankfurt School. So these are not new ideas. But what's happened in the past decade is they've gone more mainstream. And then so yes, it is intentional, because there are small elements out there who want to upend and overturn many elements of society and kind of flip the hierarchy from what they currently perceive it to be. And then there's a lot of people who would fall kind of into the useful idiot category, where it's not like, Oh, they're really deep on all of these theories. And they've really read up on, you know, Marxism and postmodernism and the origins of gender ideology and queer theory, all of these things that you could name certain people who are the architects of these ideas. And they've never even heard of them. But they're still, they're still espousing and mirroring the ideas that they got in college or whatever it is. So in this situation, they're sort of acting like useful idiots. So it's not a new these these ideas are not new. They've just penetrated and gone beyond the fringes of academia, very much in the past decade, which is why if you talk to most people, regardless of even even where they sit politically, a lot of people would say that around somewhere between 2011 and 2013, it's like we entered there was some kind of break and we entered some new weird reality where like, you know, prior to 2010, in 2010, some of the conversations that are now being had and have been had over the last few years, these were things that weren't up for debate. These aren't things that people were saying or questioning and so on. That's when it started getting weird. That's when it really started getting weird, right? I think that's when it tilted. I'd say 2012. Yeah, that's why I often say that in the past decade. That's when clown world my calendar was right. Essentially. Yeah. Now some moderates would say, so what? Leave him alone. Why is it such a big deal? Why do you think it is it is so important that we speak up or do you and or do you believe it's these are dangerous ideas? Yeah, exactly. It's if the ideas are destructive and dangerous and harmful to people on an individual and a societal level, which I would absolutely argue that these woke ideas are. I don't even like that word woke. I just there's not really a better term for it that people are going to easily understand that encapsulates all these different ideas, right? So this encapsulates the gender theory, which includes the modern notions of transgenderism. This includes what people would call critical race theory and ways of viewing, you know, race in society, right? Someone who believes this idea will look at a room like this and automatically they're making all sorts of judgments and aspersions based on all of our skin color, right? They already know racism is happening. They're just trying to work out how it's happening, right? Like no matter what you do right now, if you say that you're not racist, then that's that's evidence that you are racist, right? Yeah, you can't win if you like, okay, no matter what you do, like if you're white, right, if you say you're if you deny it, then that's evidence of your racism, right? That's your for your white fragility or whatever nonsense they call it. If I say that I don't typically experience racism, or that like, I don't see people that right there, they'll say that oh, I'm, you know, that's my internalized racism or now you can be a black white supremacist. So maybe I'm white supremacist, right? They have all these goofy ideas. Remember when Chappelle did that bit? And everybody thought that was so funny. Now like, yeah, everybody's like, no, you can act. Yeah, right. Yeah. Didn't it just a couple of weeks ago, they had the article with a Kanye and you know, talking about was it multiracial white supremacy or something? And you're just like, what on earth are these people talking about? So yeah, all those ideas, some of the more extreme notions of, you know, modern day, third or fourth wave feminism are encapsulated in those ideas. So, you know, it really is just cultural Marxism. It's instead of the bourgeoisie in the proletariat, you're splitting it along typically, race, sexuality and gender. That's why those are the three sort of categories that are always going with that way. But to me, all the above are destructive. That's why it's a problem. Because these are number one, it's false. Right. Number one, the ideas are not they're, they're just false. Yes. Okay. The idea that all white people are racist. That's false. Right. This is one of their tenets. It's literally a tenet. But I'm like, that is false. The idea of all black people are oppressed. It's complete bollocks. Right. My Britishness is slipping out. Right. But it's, it's, it's, it's false. It's false. And also it's, it's divisive and damaging. Right. If you're, if you're regardless of what skin color you are, or whether you're a man or you're a woman or you're straight or you're gay or whatever, if you're walking around either believing that you are just by dint of who you are, you're an oppressor. Right. And that you're somehow holding other people down and you need to somehow atone for sins you haven't committed or whatever. Like that's not healthy. That's not positive. If you're a black person or you're a woman or you're this or you're that and you're supposed to walk around all day believing that you're repressed and people are against you and you're actually kind of a second class citizen and all of these things and you know that it creates animosity between people. Right. You don't want to walk around all day hung up on your identity and people's immutable characteristics, all that stuff. It's, it's not accurate and it's not helpful. And I think you can, you can genuinely see the division that it causes. You can, you can see the division when you've got people again. Again, it's, it's weird because these are kind of, I call it neo, I call it neo racism because actually they're just slightly flipping ideas that people had a century plus. It's still collectivism. It's all collectivism. It is. It's, it's still going back to, oh no. Like these are the type of people who will tell you that it's racist to be colorblind. Right. That if you say something like, oh, you know what, I don't really see a race. Like I don't judge people that way or whatever they're like, oh, no, that's a problem. And it's like, what are you, this isn't, this is what the KKK were pushing. Right. That you, you have to split people into, you know, the whites and the non whites and treat people differently based on this. And you've got people who are pushing for segregated graduations and having different dorm rooms for different ethnicities. And so I'm just like, that is, that's psychotic. Strangely moved away from just basing it off of your character. Yeah. It's, it's, it's going full circle. It's like Pac-Man. You know, if you go all the way to the far right of the screen, you pop back up on the far left. If you go on the far left, you pop back up on the hall. It does feel like that. It does feel like that. You know, you know, um, uh, so I have a theory as to what may be driving all of this. Um, and really, if you, if you really want to look at evidence for this, if you look at the Soviet Union and how they effectively manipulated their people, a lot of what they did is they would say one thing and they would counter it and then they would say something else and constantly getting people to the point where they didn't know what was right or wrong and they waited for their leaders to tell them what to think. And I feel like if they destabilize us enough to, this is true, then tomorrow this is not true. This word means that. No, tomorrow now it means that. Eventually we are, we have no solid footing. We hate each other. We don't necessarily know why. We have no solid footing. Makes us very easily manipulated. What university, what university was that just came out with two days ago with field? You can't, they're gonna, field is racist. Oh, yeah. Did you see that? Oh, the word field? Yeah, the word field is being removed from my USC. Yeah, well, yeah, it was USC. Yeah, they're removing the word field. You can't say football field anymore. Football. Yeah, what do you meant to call it? Yeah, I don't even know what they're gonna call it. How far can we go with this redefining? Let me guess, this is because like field harkens back to plantation slavery or something. Yeah, cotton fields. Yeah, of course. Some are like that. I didn't even know that. I had that ass, I was like, what? I don't even understand. What's the problem with field? I don't know. But I do feel like if they do this and they do this well enough, we're just, we're very easily manipulated. And so it's like, let's get them all, do you agree? 100%, it's divide and conquer. Again, it's nothing new. Which, by the way, what I didn't understand and I just like literally heard someone to have this conversation is that that's actually human nature. Like that we come out with this desire to try and conquer. We actually have to fight against that not happening. So the people that have this idea of, oh, just, you know, oh, it's not a big deal, leave it alone. Like you don't realize that if you just leave it alone and we just go to what's natural to us. It's tyranny. It is to conquer. Yeah, it is. And it's tribalism. You know, something I think about a lot is just that human nature is just what it is. Right? So first of all, number one, history is still happening. Right? We have an idea of history is in the past. Like we're done with history. Like we're living in the history of the future right now. Okay. So history is not done. And modern people, I've said this before, we only have two advantages over our ancestors. That's it. Biologically, natural urges, all that stuff. We are the same. We're the same as our great-grandparents, our great-great-grandparents. That's why the seven deadly sins are just as applicable today as they were thousands of years ago. Yeah. The only two advantages we have are we, number one, we have better tech. We have better stuff. Right? We literally have better technology. These microphones, medical stuff, food stuff, all the tech that we have. We have better stuff. Number two is we have access to the past. We know what happened in the past. So there are even certain ideas. How do you know certain ideas are bad that we were just discussing? Because we've done that before. How do we know racial segregation is not good? Because it's been tried. How do we know slavery is a bad idea beyond like, you know, something in our... It's been tried for thousands of years. This is what it led to. How do we know it's bad to judge people and treat people differently based off immutable characteristics? Because most of human history, that's actually what was done. And it's still happening in some parts of the world. And it leads to misery. At the worst, it leads to ficking genocide. So let's not be so... In the words of C.S. Lewis, let's not have so much chronological snobbery and think that we're so far ahead of all these people and whatever. Like you can see how quickly people go back to tribalism. Remember just last year or the year before where it was more... It was more 2021 where it peaked when the whole vaccinated versus unvaccinated division, right? The way that the media just managed to split people into a binary tribes that no one had ever even thought of before. We've had vaccines our entire lives. That's the first time I've seen that something like that go and divide family and friends. It happened in my own family and friends. It happened in millions. And I would consider myself a very non-political type of person and many of my family and friends like that. And it divided us. It's crazy. Millions of people across the globe that happened. Millions of families and friendship groups disrupted by that, right? No one ever lost a friend over whether or not someone took a flu shot. Think of all the vaccines that are available. No one ever gave a crap. No one ever even knew whatever. It wasn't commonplace to even ask somebody, oh, did you take... Like, whatever. Who cares? That's your business. That's private. And the media very intentionally, very intentionally, and the politicians, they managed to just split people so that people's own sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, friends, they're now looking at each other askew or don't want to be near each other based off of this thing. Complete PSYOP. Complete PSYOP, right? But that shows the power of it. So one thing about human nature is we have a tendency to be tribal. And again, tribalism, just like we were talking about social disapproval, it's not something that's inherently bad, right? Of course, there's positives to tribalism. If you've got a family, right? There's a... You feel tribal about your family. I trust people I know more than people I don't. Absolutely, everybody does, right? Everybody does. Your nation, you typically are going to care about your country or even your city or your state more than... It doesn't mean you don't care about the rest, but we have all that in-group, out-group, in-group, out-group. If you're a member of a religion or a certain community or whatever, you're going to feel more affinity towards people within that to some degree. And that's fine. So I think the solution isn't that... I don't think you can't get rid of tribalism. It's there. But to me, the solution is you make the tent as big as possible, right? So instead of focusing on all the minutia of the things that people have different, which is infinite, it's like, all right, well, what do we all have in common? Let's go up a level. Let's go up a level, right? So when people are dividing along all these things, it could be race, it could be ethnicity, it could be gender, it could be religion, it could be politics, it could be whatever. If you go up a level or two, that's where you always find the commonality. So something that's interesting to me, one of the differences between the UK and US, for example, is, say, on the topic of race, I don't like talking about racial stuff, but I think this is interesting and important. So in the UK, you almost never hear the term white British, black British, Asian British. Doesn't it just sound weird? Doesn't it even sound weird if someone said, oh, Zuby's a black Brit? Or Zuby's like, it sounds weird. But in the States, black American, African American, Asian American, white American, like these are terms that you hear all the time. And as an outsider, that's something that strikes me. I'm like, that's weird. Why do they do that? And I guess I know some of the answer because there's historical reasons for it. But I'm kind of like, you're all American. Like why the prefixes? Why the obsession with the prefixes? If you just drop that and it's just like American, then automatically, even in terms of bonds, it bonds everyone. I'm like, well, you're all American. You're all country made. Like you're all from the same place. Like why are you going so granular to the point where, okay, now you've got all these other, you're creating new lines of fracturing, right? And now you've got, I don't know, now they'll, because that's what they do with all the intersectionality stuff. Well, again, I don't like the idea because it's like, oh, well, as a black, lesbian, female, vaccinated, expert, like whatever, you can't just be, just be who you are. You know why we need to- I think ideas are probably a good way. Like thoughts, behaviors, ideas, beliefs, probably a better way to put people together. Along those lines, America in the 19th century and early 20th century, I mean, to come here was really, you just showed up. If you just showed up, you were accepted. And we still are a country of immigrants, but boy, back then, were we a massive country of immigrants, most coming from Europe. And just to preface, a lot of people think that, oh, they're all white, okay. Italians, Germans, French, Irish, were, I mean, they were not, they didn't consider each themselves the same at all. I mean, Europe went to war, world war, twice over their differences. So they all came over here, super different. Italians, Germans, Irish, I mean, very, very different, but they had ideas that were the same. And the ideas were, we're all here for freedom and liberty. We all want opportunity. I know my family came here for that same reason. I'm the product of immigrants. So they all bonded over this idea of freedom and liberty. And they built businesses and worked with each other. And here's the word tolerated, actually tolerated each other pretty well. And they did pretty damn well as a result. We grew, all of a sudden it's become this divide instead of unite. It's very strange to me. It's weird how we've done that. And then back to the behavior commentary, it is true that we have natural behaviors, but what makes us human is our ability to consciously look at our behaviors and modify them. I mean, I work in the fitness space. I've worked in fitness for over two decades. Like our natural tendency is to overeat, not move, right? But we know better. And so in modern societies, those of us who are more conscious about it, move more and eat healthier. Because if we just listened to our behaviors, we would be sick and unhealthy. So I wanted to touch on that because people make the nature argument. And although there's some truth in there, there's lots of truth in the fact that we become enlightened, that we can look at things and modify them. And I think that's really important. Yeah, absolutely. And look, if you're an adult, even as a child, we constantly have to fight human nature, right? We have to fight human nature, and we have to fight our own individual natures, right? We all have our own set of personality traits with flaws. We have our proclivities, the things that were... Some people have quite addictive personalities, right? You know, if you have that, you're quite prone to becoming addicted to things. Some people are more prone to laziness, while some people are more conscientious. We all have these different things. And I think part of becoming a functional adult is, like you said, not just saying, oh, well, I have this natural urge, so I just indulge every natural urge. I mean, if you do that, you're going to be a terrible person, and you're certainly not going to be successful. So I think it's a matter of just recognizing, okay, this tendency exists, both within myself and within other people. Knowing that, how do I become conscious of it, and then what's the best way forward? For example, if you're someone who you know you're... I'd say I have a personality that's somewhat addictive. I think I have a tendency to form habits pretty quickly and get addicted to things, and I've used that very much to my success, to become addicted to things that are positive, right? So completely just their stuff, I won't even touch all of that stuff, right? But then, cool, I'm addicted to going to the gym and exercising. I've been doing that for two decades at this point. It's like as natural as brushing my teeth. I enjoy the work that I do. I enjoy, you can spin a lot of things into something positive, right? So I think that's the best way to do it, and it looks different for different people. But I think, look, fundamentally, you're not gonna... You can... How to put it? I don't think we can fundamentally change human nature. It's just what it is, but we can change how conscious we are of it, and how we approach things both individually and collectively in order to keep certain things in check. I want to ask you about fitness, because I know you're a big fitness guy. In fact, that's how somewhat along the lines of fitness, that's how you kind of got popular with your deadly record. Which was absolutely... That was brilliant, good times. It was brilliant. I never thought I would see these ideas, and again, using the term woke ideas, permeate my space, fitness. I never thought that, and yet it is. Nothing is safe. Nothing is safe. I've seen now articles saying that lifting weights is toxic masculinity. I just shared an article the other day. The roots are from white supremacy. The white supremacist roots of gyms. Of exercise, yeah. Of exercise, body acceptance movement, which is not real body acceptance. They've morphed it into something different. How do you feel about it? Because you've been working out for a long time. Yeah. Were you as surprised as I was? When I saw it come into my space, I was like, there's no way. No, because this stuff's been on my radar for longer than it's been on most peoples. And even before I started to publicly speak out on some of this stuff, I was talking about it privately with people for five, six years, as it was said, certainly from the early 2010s. And so I saw the trajectory that these ideas were going in, and I saw that they were going to, I don't know, say for example, even something goofy like the whole preferred pronouns thing or the made-up gender thing. I mean, I saw that happening in like 2013. Really? 2012, yeah. And I was like, this thing is going to become a thing. Even with the deadlift that I did. So I remember having conversations with people back in 2016, 2017, talking about this, saying that there's going to be a whole issue with males identifying as women and competing in female sports and crushing. I was saying this back in 2016, 2017. It doesn't sound that long ago. And a lot of people would look at me weird and be like, come on, dude, that's not going to happen. Yeah, that's too crazy. Yeah, it sounded goofy, even just like, I mean, it is goofy, but it sounded, no, come on, man. Like, people won't accept that. And I was like, dude, it's going to happen. Like, it's already happening in certain places and you're just not seeing it. It's not mainstreamed yet. And then, I mean, that deadlift video I did, that was four years ago. That was four years ago. And even when I did that in February 2019, it was on some people's radar, but not to the level that it is, say, now. Now people are more aware of the fact that this is happening and it's even happening like these, you've got dudes winning female beauty pageants and all of these other things that are happening. And so now it's sort of hit a mainstream consciousness. But I think that if you see such things early, it's quite easy to see where they're going. So I knew that these ideas, they're not going to just stay within academia or entertainment. It's going to get into every single thing. It's in the military. It's in the fitness world. It's in the science world. It's in everything. To use the term, Gad Sad would use. No, he calls them... Parasitic. Yeah, parasitic, right? Mind viruses. And that's how they spread. And I think they also spread because there is something... I think there's a lot of reasons. I think the fact that society is much more secular. Is a massive factor in how these things are able to spread. Because to some degree, they act as a substitute for traditional religion to a lot of people. Well, you worship something. So if you don't worship God, you're going to worship God. Yeah, I believe human beings are... One of the strongest conclusions I've come to in the past few years is truly that I believe human beings are inherently religious. I always lean to think that that is true. Now I'm like, I absolutely believe that to be true. And that religious urge can be supplanted by lots of different ideas and ideologies. And people can become religious and zealous over many different things, which is really what we're seeing. But I think that's a factor. I think also that it appeals to a lot of people's emotions and feelings. And people do want to have a sense of morality and right and wrong and in-group and out-group and have some type of idea of an enemy. And I also think that it appeals because... What was the last point I was going to make there? Slip my mind. No, explain what you mean by humans are inherently religious. Yeah. What I mean is that naturally... Okay, even if you just think of it sort of pragmatically. Human beings, every person, especially as you grow into an adulthood or as you are an adult, there are certain things that you are going to seek and want. These include purpose, meaning, a sense of morality, a sense of community, some guidance and ethics on what is right and what is wrong. We've already talked about the fact that there are tribalistic elements and so on. And for most people around the world, even still, most people, religion answers all of these things. Right? It provides meaning. It provides purpose. It tells you how you should live your life, what rules you should go by. Of course, it gives you a sense of community, whether you're Jewish or you're Hindu or you're Christian or you're Muslim. You've got your community there. You've got your guidelines. And it offers answers and explanations for many things in the world. So science is cool, but there's a lot of stuff that no matter how advanced science gets, you can't answer. Science is largely amoral. It's not immoral. It explains how things are. It's supposed to be amoral. Yeah, it's supposed to be. I'm talking about actual science, the science, which is now turning into a secular religion. Scientism. Yeah, scientism, right? And so I think that, look, whether someone believes in, if someone is a theist and believes in God, you're going to believe that the religious urge is just hardwired in human beings, because we are from God and created in his image. But even from a, I'm not an atheist, but even if you were a totally atheistic, secular person who just thinks it's just, we're just on this spinning rock flying around the sun and we've just evolved over all these years, the truth would be even then, in that case, we've evolved to be religious. Why are billions of people all around the world, you look throughout history, most people have always been religious. Most countries, most tribes, most groups have had different religious beliefs in a way. But so even if you took that hard line evolutionary perspective, you, it's still easy to conclude. Okay, well, there's clearly a proclivity towards religion, right? And maybe there were societies that rejected this in the past, but they're not, they're not around in this time. And maybe there's a reason for that. So I don't think you can really get away from that, from that urge. And something that is interesting is even with people who are more secular or consider themselves atheists and so on, they're still looking for all those aforementioned things. Maybe some people want to go and sit on a mountain and meditate, maybe they want to do psychedelics, maybe they want to, but they want to, maybe they won't use the term God, but they're trying to get closer to the universe or to the source or to whatever it is, right? That whatever social, yeah, like there's different ways, but it's so fascinating to me that you can't, it's interesting because so many people are rejecting tradition, traditional religion or trying to move this way, trying to move away from it. And you still see those. To just reframe it. Yeah, you still see those same religious urges and impulses. Like when I look at the hardcore Wokeys, I'm like, that is a secular religion. 100% it's a cult. It's, if you look at the people who are really into the COVID stuff, right, what I call branch comedians, it's a, it's a religious, it's zealous. They're more religious than the average religious person in many ways, right? If you don't take their beloved vaccine, like they won't even sit in the same room with you, right? I'll sit in a room with someone who's like, un-baptized, no problem. Yeah. Right, but imagine if, you know, I'm like, no, that person's, you know, they're not baptized, they're not, we can't even hang, we can't even talk, whatever. And so they're taking it to, here's another thing I believe. I believe that zealotry is a personality trait. And you can kind of run different software on it. So when I see those type of people, I think these are the people who would have been, you know, a few hundred years ago, they'd be the ones, you know, calling people out to be witches and wanting to burn them at the stake or whatever, right? Because they have that overzealous personality trait. Agreed. It's not that, it's not that the zealotry comes from the ideology or the religion or whatever. I just think some people have that personality trait and it leans, it leans the more towards authoritarianism and they like to be holier than now and want to tell other people what to do. And absolutely, you get people who do that under the basis of religion. You have people who do that under the basis of politics. You've even got people, even with diet, right? You have people who... Are you kidding me? Like we know, you don't bring up religion, politics, or diet. I'm kidding you, because you know, it's funny. So because we make choices, you know, every decision you make as a choice, as a human, we're conscious of our choices. So I wore these shoes because they're better than another pair of shoes I have for today or whatever. I take a left because that's a better direction than, you know, taking a ultimately, you have a top value and that is what you end up worshiping. So that's so because we are hierarchical creatures, we make choices, we don't just act, you know, through instinct, we actually make choices. That means at the top as a top value, that's what you end up worshiping, whether you're conscious of it or not. And there's one thing that all totalitarian regimes and cultures, for all human history is one thing they all have in common. Either they get rid of God so that they can replace God or they become God and they say, I am your God. That's one thing you'll notice. So you look at like this is why they get rid of the church or they oppress people who believe in, you know, a religion or whatever. Because if you believe in that this God is your God, then you can't possibly worship, you know, the regime. Yes. So for this is one of the reasons I think that this is exploding. I agree with you. It's because we're so secular. And so we're left floating and wandering. And it's very easy to plug in something else, whether it's done on purpose or we just, you know, we interviewed Bishop Barron a while back and he said, historically he said, if you don't worship God, you tend to worship money, power, pleasure or honor, which can also be fame. And if you look around, it makes total sense. This is what we end up, just through our actions, what we end up worshiping. So it is very interesting. And this was predicted, you know, these communism was predicted and these types of ideas were predicted by people who weren't even, they weren't even religious. I'm trying to think of his name, popular, yeah, yeah. They would say, look, God dies, what's going to replace that? Nature. Yeah, really bad. Yeah. And it makes total sense. Again, and I'm not even making an argument for the existence of God right now. But if you just think about this very logically and pragmatically, you use the term hierarchy, right? So we'd all recognize that we have a hierarchy of values or morality or authority. So for someone who believes in God, the answer is, what's at the top of the hierarchy? God. God is above myself, above the government, above any other ideology, whatever, God is at the top. Just logically, if you remove God from the top of the hierarchy, there still has to be something at the top, right? You can't have a hierarchy with nothing at the top, just logically. There's got to be something. So what's now at the top? Oftentimes, it's the state, as you alluded to earlier, right? That's where statism comes in, just worship of the government and the government ideology. It could be politics. It could be nihilism. It could be hedonism. It could just be yourself, right? Okay, well, if there's no, you know, I'm at the top, right? I decide what morality is. I decide whatever. And that can also often just go to, all right, I'm just going to seek pleasure. If it makes me feel good, that's what I do. And that's hedonism. Or you could also just fall into, oh, you know what? Like, it's all, none of it matters. And that's more like nihilism. You could end up, we've already talked about statism. You could just, you could fit whatever else, celebrity worship, materialism, money worship. It could just be, okay, well, at the top is money or power, right? That's all that's at the top. So as long as, you know, it's in pursuit of power, it's in pursuit of money or whatever, ethics, morals, whatever, that doesn't even matter. And this is also where truth becomes subjective, right? So I think before, again, before about 2012, I don't think I ever heard anyone use the term, terms like his truth, her truth, your truth, my truth. No one used to speak like that. There was just that truth. No one used to speak like that. Just go back to 2008. No one used to say, oh, that's her truth. That's his truth. That's, that's new. That's new speak. And so even to me, that's, that's interesting because that's people then just putting, okay, now the truth is subjective. If I feel that it's true and I say that that's my truth, then not only is it true, but if you question it even or you challenge it or you say, wait, hang on, you don't get your own truth, then that's now perceived as an attack, right? That's not, that's not, that's not just you disagreeing with me. That's you denying my existence. I'm sure you guys have heard the phrase, right? Where people say, you're trying to erase my existence. You're denying my, I'm like, I'm not trying to deny it. Like if you're a human being, like I'm not, I don't, I've never denied the existence of I'm just saying that if, you know, if one of you right now were to say that, oh, you know, I'm now a woman, I'm like, and you know, and that's your truth, I'm like, I mean, you can, you can believe what you like, but you're not actually a woman. And me saying that isn't me trying to attack anyone or be vicious towards anyone. I'm just saying that that's objectively not true. It's still grounded in reality. You can believe that this table in front of us is a circle. You know, I'd support your right to believe that. You could say it's a yellow circle. I'm like, no, it's a brown rectangle or cuboid, but you know, where we're living in this time where if someone's like, no, actually it's not a yellow circle. You're being violent. Yeah. Yeah. You're being, I don't know, geometry phobic or does it all unravel? Does it all unravel? Yes. And are we going to see it soon? I said, that's what I feel. Let me give you some optimism. Okay. That's how soon we're going to get to the bottom of the three of us. I'm the most optimistic. Like this is the natural swing. Very pessimistic. It just swung harder than ever because of technology and stuff like that. It's coming back. Tell me, do you know why before, before I, before I answered, let me, let me explain why I also why I think that some of this is happening. I think a lot of it is happening because for the first time and in the first place in all of human history, we actually truly have equality under the law and genuine, generally speaking, true social tolerance for the first time ever, right? So if you go back to any, any previous decade, let alone century in this country, in any other country, you could very clearly point out laws, either laws on the books or social laws that were genuinely discriminatory or bigoted towards a certain group of people or groups of people, right? No one would deny that even in a country as great as the USA, I mean, it's only how long of black people even had the right to vote in this country. It's not even a century, right? People used to be enslaved, people were not allowed to vote, all sorts of things, right? And keep in mind that the US is like ahead of most countries in terms of resolving these things, right? Slavery was abolished here and, you know, before it was in most of the world. For thousands of years, human beings were enslaving each other and doing all sorts of awful stuff. So there was always a fight, right? There was always a fight of like, okay, we need to genuinely have equality under these laws. We need to genuinely tolerate people. You know what? It's wrong to beat someone up in the street because they're a different race or because they're homosexual or this or this, right? That was even happening in the fricking 90s, right? So we've made all this progress and finally actually reached a level where if I'm like, okay, tell me a law that is just outright discriminatory against like a group of people, right? You think you'd really struggle, right? The closest we got was when they started all the discriminating against the unvaccinated nonsense, which is one of the things that made alarm to me so much about it. I was like, what the heck? This is a huge step backwards. You know, people can't do it. Even when you've got these people marching for women's rights or whatever and someone asked them, okay, like what rights do you want that you don't have? Like they can't answer. I can tell you a couple actually. Okay. There's laws that in here, I don't know how they are in the UK, but here where, let's say you're Asian or white, you have to score higher. So there's a formative action laws that are actually discriminatory. Those are the only ones that I know of that are on the book. And isn't that interesting? Because that's an overcorrection for what they perceived to be the issue. So you think we're just spoiled and we just need something to... Well, I think it's two things. I think number one that people haven't noticed, right? I think with the constant push for progress and fairness and equality and all that, which is a good urge, I think people haven't sort of looked up and gone, wait, hang on, like we did it, right? Like actually, like, wait, we actually have like... Maybe we should calm down a little bit. Yeah, right? Like there's still that zealotry of I want to fight, I want to fight. And then following on from that, I think there are people who are just activist-minded, right? Yeah. Particularly on the left side of the aisle. And some of them, especially the older ones, like they have been fighting for all these decades, right? They were part of the civil rights fight. They were part of, you know, this, they were part of that. And so they still, they're looking for the next thing. I think Douglas Murray calls this the St. George and Retirement Syndrome, right? Looking for dragons to slay. You're still there with your sword, looking for the dragons. And, you know, you're swinging around and it's like, actually, you've already slayed them. That's the example I think we just saw with USC. And I think it's got to this point where like we are now actively looking for something. There's got to be something else racist. There's got to be something else that's oppressive. Find it, you know? Yeah. Oh, feel. There it is. Yeah, as I said before, you know, racism isn't, you know, dead, but it's absolutely on life support, right? And they keep jolting it, trying to, you know, bring it back to life, because there's so much juice and there's money in it. Juicy, what's his name? Smollet. He had to hire people to beat him up to say that. Literally committing hate crimes against themselves. The thing is, that's only one of many examples. Right, right, right. That's the crazy part, right? Because it's famous we know about it, right? Yeah. Right. It's like, like, it's actually crazy where literally you hear about a so-called hate crime and now I'm like, yeah, they probably did it to themselves, right? And that's happened. People say, oh, there was racist graffiti or there was a, they find the guy on CCTV. He's there like writing, you know, he's there doing it himself. Or there was that one with a, what's that, what's the NASCAR driver? Yeah. Oh yeah, with the new show. Roe Bubba. The new thing. Yep. I was going to say Bubba Smollet. I can't remember his, Bubba. Yeah, there was that whole thing. And you know, they had all that and it turned out it wasn't anything. So, you know, I think it's good that people have those urges to want to have the fairness and the equality and all that. But I think if you people kind of looked up and had that sense of gratitude and just go, okay, wait, hang on. Where were we in 1923? In a hundred years, one person's lifetime, you've gone from people being freaking lynched, KKK, and it's peak the KKK had, I think, four million members. Yeah. Four million. Right? Like, that's, isn't that nutty to think? There were people in Congress and in like, you know, in government who were openly KKK members. Can you even, like you can't even fathom that now. No. That sounds unreal to think that there's open KKK members in Congress and in the police force and so on. So, the strides have been incredible. And I think people get so stuck on the past that they can't go, okay, like that was FDOP. That was bad. But yo, look at how much progress has been made in such a quick time. Let's have some gratitude. Is that how you would counter the argument when people trick? Because they try and lean on like statistics still. Like you, like, like example, this would be like the gender pay gap, pay gap with women is they'll lean on like statistics to try and prove that it's still going on. It's still bad. I think they go in with a belief, then they use the statistic, don't break it down. And they don't want to look at the nuance. It justifies their, oh, this seat, it still exists because. Something that's important for people to understand is that disparity does not equal discrimination. Oh, so glad you said that. People will just look at a statistic and go, oh, there's a disparity. Therefore, some type of ismophobia is taking place. And I'm like, that's the most low resolution version of anything. There's our infinite reasons. What a great point for all sorts of disparities. Anybody who understands data and statistics knows that that's a terrible way to break down a number. You don't make a conclusion right out the gate. So you got to figure out where your controls are and what's going on. Otherwise, you've got nothing. Yeah. Well, that's how exactly how the gender pay gap unravels, right? As you start to unpack it and go, oh, well, you know, you also take in factor and that women are pregnant for nine months. And that would naturally mean go this way. Well, this is how it is. Naturally, women do different jobs. Right. It's not a new different thing. You know, it was interesting about that one. I had a conversation with them. When that was real, when they were pushing it politically, I had a conversation with a friend was like, see, this is what's going on. I said, I asked them, I said, what, why do companies outsource to other countries? Well, to save money because they could pay less for the same kind of labor. And I said, well, if women are getting paid less, why don't they just hire women? And there was the look on the cost effect. Oh, wait a minute. Doesn't make any sense. This is the thing. I think these ideas, they emotionally hijack people. And they don't think of it past like five seconds. Because if something like the gender pay, like the fact that that even persists still like that's been being debunked since the 90s. And people are still like, oh, women are earning 77 cents on the dollar or whatever. And I'm just like, bro, please, how are you, how are you still repeating this? I mean, the thing is also people don't often, some people don't apply just common sense. So I had someone who I remember getting in this conversation where there was this music festival happening in the UK. It was a hip hop festival. And there was this person on Twitter who, they had the lineup of all the performers on the bill. And he blanked out all of the male performers. And there were maybe like six or seven female performers out of, I don't know, 50 or 60 people performing on the thing. And he was like, ah, right. You know, this is evidence of sexism in the music industry. And I was like, bro, how many female rappers can you name? Right. He literally got to like three and was like, um, uh, whatever. And I'm like, how, I was like, hip hop is like at least 90% dudes. Right. Way more men are rappers than are female. Not because women are not allowed to be rappers. Women have been allowed to rap for many decades. But because men and women are different, right? You can look at areas where it's, it's 80, 90% female dominated nursing, obvious one, primary school teaching. Only fans, right? Because I feel like that's one of the best arguments to disrupt that argument. It's just like, well, then what's going on with the, why aren't the men getting paid equally on only fans? With the modeling, female models are paid a lot more than the models. So, um, and that why, because of supply supply and demand, right? But it's, these things are not, it's, it's funny because they're not hard to understand at all. And what's weird is because just living your life, even if you don't get into all the studies and the data and all this stuff, if you've lived for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, whatever, even just off your own experiences, you know that men and women are fundamentally different in a lot of ways. And one of the most obvious ones is we have different interests, right? I don't know how you can exist in the world and meet thousands and thousands of people and not work out, I mean, even within your own family, even if you, if you have kids, if you, whatever you recognize, okay, like males and females are, are just different. Yeah, sure. There's a lot of overlap and everyone has their own personality, but there's, there's fundamental differences and that leads to different choices. And different decisions. And I'm of the opinion that not only is this not a problem, it's good. Right? People get hung up on like the issue of like, oh, trying to get, we need gender balance in this. And we, I'm like, what's wrong with it being it? Why do we have to be the same? I'm cool with inequality. Inequality is good. That's going to get close. No, but, but genuinely in many things, what's not good, what's not good is unfair discrimination and mistreatment and denial of opportunities. Yes. That should not be able to do what you want. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that everyone's going to want to do the same thing. No. And God forbid, that would be awful. Right? We all, we all have siblings, right? Yep. Okay. And, you know, you've got children. Even within the same household. Yeah. What you do versus what your, what your siblings do, the decisions you, you end up in different fields. I can't even raise my kids the same. I have to, I have to parent each of my kids differently because they're different. And if I parented them all the same, I would fail. Yeah. It just doesn't work. I just heard a great comedian say that he was up on stage and he asked all the audience that they had kids, if they had babysitters, and how many of them had actually chose a man. Not because you're, you didn't choose a female to babysit your kids, not because you're sexist, because you're smart. Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, here's the deal. I guarantee you, if we pull up a video of someone doing something absolutely crazy, it's that risks their life, nine out of 10 times it's a guy. It's going to be a white guy too. It's good. You know, you know, it's true, all right? It's true. It's actually true. Yeah, every time you talk to that. I can't disagree with boys to shoot. I'll be reading certain things. I'll be like, that's a white guy. I was like, there's no black guy that's doing that. We won't even go camping. He went skydiving without a parachute. Looking for bigfoot. Yeah. Every time. That's a white dude. I mean, but they exist for a reason. One of the easiest examples of what the reason would be is, men are expendable. So we evolved to take stupid risks because a society cannot survive when 50% of its women are gone, but 50% of the men, 90% of the men can be gone and the society will survive. So we just evolved this way. But I think it's important to differentiate general differences, but then also there's individuals. So it doesn't mean that you can't be a man and be interested in the things that women generally are and vice versa. It just means that generally speaking, men tend to do these things and tend to like things and women tend to like these things. And if we're going to understand each other, one of the worst ways to understand each other is deny that. One of the most effective things I've learned to help me communicate with my wife, for example, was understanding some of those differences. I can't talk to my wife like she's a guy. She comes to me with a problem. She doesn't want me to solve it for her right away. Now, Adam comes to me with a problem. I know why he's coming to me. He's like, give me some ideas, bro. What do I need to do? She just wants me to listen to her. Generally speaking, I read this that women generally, they just want you to kind of hear them, whereas men just kind of want the answers. When I read that, I went and communicated that way and it was amazing. Had I been like one of these people that's like, no, we're all the same, that would have caused problems. And it's also funny because women don't like being treated like men. Yeah. Right? So for all this thing of like, here's another thing. I'm a fan of treating people fairly. I don't think treating people everybody equally even makes sense, right? Because no one actually does that, right? You don't treat your own family and children and friends the same way you treat strangers. That would be very weird, right? But I believe you can treat everyone fairly, right? But I think it's interesting because, yeah, people will say all that. But if you actually talk to a woman in the exact same way you talk to like a guy friend, like they don't like it. They don't like it. So there's always going to be a, I just think it's, I think we're problematizing a lot of things that just aren't problems, right? Sometimes even, sometimes I do spots on TV or certain interviews or whatever. And I come back up and I'm like, what problem are we actually trying to solve here? Right? Because you get lost in all these weeds and whatever. And I'm like, well, what's the actual, what's the problem? So say, for example, we were talking about like the gender thing or whatever. So someone will be, oh, you know, I don't know the stat. 20% of CEOs of the big companies or what? Only 20% of the CEOs are female, whatever. We need to, and people go into all these things. How can this be addressed? How can it be fixed? I'm like, so what's wrong with that? What's the problem? If 80% of CEOs are male and 20% are female, what is fundamentally the issue there? Right. Like, why is that bad? Why is that a problem? And people can't answer that because they just see the disparity in their life. I'm like, well, you know, 99% of construction workers are male, 99% of sanitation workers and lumberjacks and people under the sewers and all. It's all men doing all these crappy jobs that crab fishing, all these jobs that no one, like no one would want to do. And it would sound nutty to be like, oh, we need to get 50% female representation in these things. And no one ever says that. But then on these other types of things, it's like, oh, we need this, we need that. And I'm just like, what are you trying to solve? Do you think we've glamorized just how much money you make to the point where that now is how we look at value and we've undervalued things like raising your kids or being maternal or those types of things that we tend to, we used to say we're feminine. It's like, well, oh, you raise your kids, you're a good mom. You should be making a lot of money because that's way more valuable. I think that's crazy. Do you think there's a problem? I think that's a massive problem. And I think it's quite pathological, in fact. I think that it's so interesting how these conversations are framed. So for example, coming back to the gender pay gap thing. What about the gender time gap? What about how much actual free time you have? What about how much time? Most fathers wish they had more time with their children and with their family. So you could easily spin this thing on its head. So they're all, the men are making more, men are making more. You're measuring everything by money. But it's like, OK, well, time is more valuable than money. And if you disagree with that statement, consider if you'd swap places with an 80-year-old billionaire. Right? And you wouldn't, especially an 80-year-old billionaire with terminal cancer. Absolutely no, you would not. Because time is actually more valuable than money. Health is more valuable than money as well. So you could easily say, oh, if I were being ridiculous, I could come up with some whole thesis of how men are oppressed by society and by the matriarchy because they don't get to spend as much time with their families and children because they're just these beasts of burden who are just out there and working, and they're more expendable. They're dying and all these wars and whatever. You could easily spin it and come up with a frame that, oh, actually, it's men who are oppressed in society. But I just recognize it as, look, human beings in general, we all have our challenges. And life is going to throw challenges. There are challenges that are somewhat unique or totally unique to each sex. That does exist. But I didn't make it that way. It's just that biology is biology. None of us are ever going to have a period or get pregnant or give birth or breath speed. We are somewhat detached from that. We can do our best to empathize and try to understand what that must be like. But we're never going to get it, and we're never going to experience it. So those are some of the unique things that that's like, that's just the female, the beauty and the struggle. Right? Like, that's the superpower. Something that life comes from women. Like, that's amazing. Everyone on earth was birthed from a woman. Incredible. Mothers are amazing. That's incredible. Men also have our own unique challenges and burdens that women are never going to totally, totally get. Right? Some of the duties that we just have and some of the pressure on you to perform in your career and to make money and to be able to provide resources and protect them, all that stuff to the degree as a man. Like, that's a unique, that's unique to men. Right? Historically, whether it's hunting or it's fighting or it's whatever, that's pretty much male domain. Women don't really need to think about that or worry about it. Even, you know, I talked about this the other day on a podcast. I mean, a decent looking woman, even a not so decent looking one, live her entire life and never even need to approach. Like, ask someone on a date or approach someone they're attracted to. As a man, like, if you don't do anything, nothing, nothing happens. You have to initiate, you have to approach, you have to face rejection, you have to do all of that stuff. You can't just stand, I'm just going to go to a bar and sit there and look pretty. Right? It doesn't, it doesn't work. So there's just these differences and that's just, that's fine. These aren't things I'm trying to fix. I'm not here like being a busy butler. We need to fix this and we need to fix that and fix that. It's just like, no, that's just, that's just how it is. You just said something that you, we just talked before you got here about, be interested to hear your opinion on this. Like, if you see a problem with this potentially in the future, I think the stats on on tender sales, which you are like 80% of the men get 20% of the women in there. No, no, no. 20% of the men. Or excuse me. 20% of the men get 80% Sounds accurate. Yeah. And do you foresee that as a potential problem? I mean, this is also the argument of monogamy and why we evolved to not have these societies where everybody sleeps with everybody because eventually what wouldn't happen is a very small minority would get most all the women and then you have all these angry men who can't have sex and can't reproduce that end up with war and fighting against each other. So we're now actually doing that unintentionally through this new technology. Do you see where that could potentially lead? Yeah, it's funny because it's just cycles. As I said before, where human nature doesn't change, right? We just got the technology has now enabled. It's weird because it's in a way what you're describing that phenomenon is almost like a reversion back many centuries ago to where, you know, top dudes just had like had a harem and they had, you know, all these women, multiple wives, concubines, whatever. And then, you know, lower class men are just kind of there struggling or, you know, not getting or whatever. And we've just kind of come back full circle again in a slightly different, slightly different. It's wild when you think of it like that, actually. I mean, that we really are coming back to like the same way. So what does it lead to, I guess, is the question is like. Yeah, I think in the long term, I don't, it's not positive. It's not positive. I mean, it destabilizes society. It's not by accident that every country and culture decided that marriage and raising children within that, you know, monogamous structure is ideal. Right? I mean, you don't think in all the thousands and thousands of years, people haven't tried this in all sorts of different ways. Evolution of ideas. For me to say, yeah, people have tried all sorts of different things. And the one that's like, okay, the one that works and is stable and keeps society functioning and generally keeps people happy is, okay, one man, one woman, couple up, family, cool. That's the unit. That's the basis of society. And again, in our chronological snobbery, again, people are like, nah, I've got a better idea. We can do better. Yeah, like we can do this whole thing better. I love when people are like, we're so evolved because we do it this way. I was like, you're not evolved. They was tried a long time ago. Yeah. And do you know what's so interesting is that you can see how these things actually play out. So it's one thing to be theoretical with ideas and think, okay, well, we could try that or that might work or that might work. And if you actually, even with how people themselves would pull themselves, you actually find that the happy, people who are, let me not even use the word happy, people who are genuinely like joyful and content, for the most part, of course, there's always exceptions, right? But for the most part, they tend to follow a more traditional path, right? Even with all the challenges and struggles and whatever that- The data shows it. That come with it. Yeah, those people do tend to be long-term, they're happy, they're more stable, they're less likely to get lost in drugs or alcoholism and vices. Married people with children who are religious. And look at the data, they live longer, they're happier, they tend to be sick less, they tend to do better. And that's the person that were demonizing. You mentioned Psyops a few times. Was there a turning point for you where you were like, oh, shit, okay, this is what's going on? I mean, I could tell you there were two for me. The second one was what really made me go, okay, this is weird. The first one was watching transgender women fight women. When I saw that and I was like, okay, this is crazy. Everybody who's watching this has got to know that this is crazy. The second one was during the pandemic. We had, this was one newscast, it was the same newscast. They were literally hammering you in the newscast, like all of the newscasts were at the time, to stay indoors, stay six feet away, don't spread the virus, you can get everybody sick, switch over to the George Floyd protest. Tens of thousands of people packed together, yelling and spitting on each other, and they're like, oh, this is great. This is wonderful. And then they say this literally in the newscast, this is in no way contributing to the spread of the virus. Because they're all vaccinated. And I thought, no, this was before the vaccine even existed. I thought to myself, for sure, some Psyops shit is going on. Was there a turning point for you where you were like, oh, here we go. This is now I know for sure. Man, I mean, not really. I've been how I am for a really long time. He's been ice-winding for a long time. Yeah, like, I've been how I am for a really long time. There's certain, what happens is, things more tend to confirm what I already, so if I'm already, like, so, okay, take the whole, what I call this, pandemic. Going back to February 2020, from the very beginning, February March, I was like, this is weird, this is not adding up. This isn't, there were, I had lots of alarm bells, right? And then when they started the whole two weeks to slow the spread, you know, 15 days, I was like, there's no way on earth this is going to be two weeks if people give this in, people are going to be stuck for months, if not years. But a lot of stuff wasn't making sense to me right off the bat. And then as it progressed, all that happened was those suspicions were confirmed, right? So you get to the summer of 2020. They didn't just say that the BLM protests and riots didn't increase the spread. They claimed they reduced it. So they claim that the Trump rallies and the anti-lockdown rallies were super spreaders, but the BLM protests reduced the spread. Like that makes like the restaurant logic. That's right up there with the restaurant logic, like here you can get COVID, but not here. Yeah, so there was that. And then remember at the early stages, they say, you know, don't wear masks, like masks, you know, it's pointless, whatever. And then it flipped to, you know, if you don't wear a mask, you're a grandma killer, and this and that. And then like, there were so many things and they never explained them. It wasn't like, okay, this change in narrative is because of this reason. They just kept going. Right, they just kept going and they kept switching it up and switching it up. And you know, it's been a very weird time. But you know, I think one thing that's always, that's made me question authority more is actually going to boarding school from the age of 11. Because I typically, I generally enjoyed boarding school. One thing I really didn't like was rules that were rules just for the sake of it. Yeah. I have no problem with rules. I have no problem with legitimate authority. But rules should make sense and be explainable, right? If a rule exists just because it's the rule, then... It should be logical. Yeah, I have an issue with that. So let me give you an example. So in the first boarding school I went to, this one, I was 11, 12 years old. The first and last five minutes of every email had to be in silence. All right, you got a big dining hall, hundreds of boys in there all eating. First and last five minutes had to be in silence. Interesting. Why? Because that's the rule. Right? Because they said so. Because they said so. Not because, if they even give me a bad reason, right? Give me something that doesn't... Improves digestive process. Give me something that doesn't even make... But it was just like, that's the rule. And there were multiple things like that where it was just like, that's the rule. And if you don't follow it, you get punished. It's not logical. You get in trouble for it. It's just a power grab. Did you counter shit in boarding school? Or you always get in trouble? No, I was, I had one, two detentions in seven years. Okay. No, I was very, I was very non-problematic person. Put kid but questioned it inside. In your head though, you're like, this is bullshit. Yeah, just like, this doesn't make sense. And you know, and to my parents' credit, that's one thing, they did so many good things. But they never had rules that didn't make sense or have a reason, right? So I feel like when I grew up, I had very clear sort of lines and boundaries on certain things in terms of what's right and what's wrong. That was very clear. But outside of that, I'm glad my parents didn't just like, give us tons of random rules to follow without a reason for it. There's a human behavior reason for that. They'll do that. They do that in the military for certain things because it primes you to just listen. Yes. So they'll give you rules that make no sense, follow it anyway because you're more likely to follow everything else that they say. Yeah. And that's not maybe in the military. That's, I guess, if you're on a battlefield, you don't want people questioning orders. I understand that. But in day-to-day life, I would actually argue that's incredibly dangerous. Totally. Because if you look back at the worst things that have ever happened in history, they didn't happen because the majority of people are evil or wicked. Listen, you can make that same argument for that's not good for military. Because if the wrong person in power directs that military to go in a direction that is immoral or not good, that's so it could be just as dangerous in that situation. Yeah, authority, if an authority is corrupt and they have that level of compliance, then it's extraordinarily dangerous. That's Hitler. Yeah, look at the Nazis, look at communism, look at any sort of fascist or hyper-authoritarian. Like I said, that's just people just following orders. You see it with police, right? I was in Australia last year for, I went there for a month in September or October after you guys saw the craziness that they went through. And it was interesting talking to people there, especially in Melbourne in the state of Victoria where they had over 500 days of lockdowns. Police were out there on the street fighting people. I met people who'd been shot by rubber bullets by police. I met people who'd been arrested for protesting. Crazy. All this kind of crazy stuff. Because they went even further with it all. And I also met a police officer who'd actually resigned from her job because she was just like, I can't do this, right? What they're commanding me to do to the people I'm supposed to be protecting, she's just like, this is wrong. This is not right. This is not why I decided to be a police officer so I can go out and fight protesters who are just protesting to be allowed outside. But yeah, I think these are things we, you always have to be cautious and vigilant of. That authoritarian urge and that I'm just following orders type of thing. I think with authority, authority should always be able to question authority. I'd say that if you're on authority, whether you're running a company or whatever it is, even your parents, if you have a rule or something, you tell your kid not to do it, you tell your kid not to do, and they're like, why? I think there should be an answer for that, right? It shouldn't just be because I said so. Maybe if you're talking to a two-year-old and they can't, they're not gonna understand something, then that's one thing. But certainly, especially as people get older, you need to give people reasons for why things are like that. Well, I think two comments on that. One is I really think that the pandemic gave these people and when I say these people, I mean, people who just want to rule half power or corrupt, I think it gave them a wonderful test period to see how far they could go. Mm-hmm. How far can we push? How, until people say this is crazy, and if they do say it's crazy, how far can we push until people actually do something about it? And I think that they were even surprised how far, how they could say one thing and say another thing in the same day and nobody would say anything. Now, you're very versed in history, very smart, obviously highly intelligent, mostly grew up in the UK or you, you know, you lastly live there because now you move around quite a bit. Does something like the Second Amendment here in the US make sense now that you know all these things? That's the one thing that we have here in the US that's quite unique to the rest of the world, probably the most ridiculed. If you go to any European country or anywhere else, the one thing that they'll think is crazy is how Americans can own guns as freely as we do, you're from the UK. Does it seem as crazy to you now or does it make, does it make kind of sense? It never seemed crazy to me. I've been a 2A supporter since I was a teenager. No, I've always understood the 2A. And I think the 2A is more important than most Americans even realize because I don't think it's just important for America and Americans. I think it's important for the globe. I think the USA's Second Amendment is a check against global tyranny, not just America, not just tyranny within this country, but globally. And I don't think most Americans recognize that it's actually, that it's that deep. And I also think it's funny, just look at the past century in Europe, the idea that Europeans can't understand how a government could potentially become tyrannical. That's crazy. You think if there's somewhere in the world where they would understand that, it would be in Europe. I don't think it's by accident that the USA has never had a dictator come to power or anything even close to it. The 2A is a permanent check on that. I think that the fact that certain states, certain red states, your Texases, your Florida's, your Tennessee's, I don't know, didn't go as far with some of the C-19 nonsense, I think is in part due to the Second Amendment and such high levels of gun ownership. I think they realize we can't push people past a certain level, as you were alluding to earlier, whereas in many other parts of the world, it's like, well, what are they gonna do about it? We can just roll over on them. And I think that here's something that's tricky. I believe that because most people are decent and or at least strive to be, I think it's incredibly difficult for the vast majority of people to understand that a person or a group of people can be genuinely evil. It could be genuinely wrong. We always wanna make excuses for them. There's always that, they would never do that. Yeah, on different levels, whether this is governmental and state actors or this is even individuals, a serial killer. A normal person or someone who goes and wants to shoot up a school or a mall or something. We always wanna think, oh, there's either it's mental health or this thing where we're trying to find something that fits our normal, sane, non-psychopathic framework as to why someone would do something that heinous. And the answer, sometimes people do evil things. Sometimes the answer is that person is evil. That's why they did it. And that answer doesn't sit well with most people because you're like, no, no, there's gotta be some other thing. And there's gotta be some law we could pass. Yeah, but I'm like, yo, you gotta recognize even with some of the people in power, I'm like, yo, you're not dealing with, not saying everyone in power is some type of psychopath at all, but there are genuinely bad people in certain positions who genuinely do not give a crap about humanity. Like they do not care about you. It'd be interesting to actually see the statistics around people that seek powerful positions like that. Like they're true underlining motives. I wouldn't make the case that you're gonna get a higher rate of that type of sociopathic. There's a bias, they're guaranteed. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's been said before, anyone who wants to be, I don't know, president or prime minister or whatever, like the fact that you even desire that type of power should probably disqualify you from the position because most people don't actually want to have that type of power and authority over others. Somebody would lust for it especially. Yeah, I mean, why would you be for decades like that's what you really, really want? Like to me, that's weird. I wanted to ask you this because you've been working out for a long time, you lift weights, you're quite fit. What role do you think fitness has played in some of the ways that you think? And do you think that they're attacking fitness because of how it might affect the way somebody thinks or how maybe empowered that makes them feel? Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that something that's really been under attack in I'd say the modern West in recent years, especially in this past decade, are the notions of personal responsibility and accountability. I think those things have been really under attack and something interesting I've noticed is that most people who speak on those issues to encourage people to get out of the victim narrative and blaming other people and blaming systems and whatever and put the onus on the individual, those people tend to be attacked. So however you frame that message, it's something that certain elements want to reject or push away from. That shouldn't really be surprising. I think the reason why personal responsibility is considered controversial or why people reject it is fairly simple. It's kind of like removing someone's alibi. If you tell somebody, let's just talk about health, for example. Say you're talking about your body, your physique, whether you're at a healthy body weight or you're overweight or you're obese or whatever it is, people would rather that it's not their responsibility and that they're just the results of social forces, the advertising industry, the food industry, genetics, this, that. That's a lot more comfortable but disempowering than saying, you know what, it's up to me what my body looks like for the most part. No, we can't change our facial structures or whatever but my actual physique and my general health and well-being, that's up to me. I choose what I eat. No one else is feeding me. I choose whether I exercise or I don't or what I do in the gym or not. So I'm a big fan of responsibility and accountability, not just because that's what moves the needle but actually it's empowering. Once you get over your feelings and emotions and all that kind of stuff and it's just like actually that's really positive. That means that I can move. I'm the one steering my own ship. I'm not just a leaf that's blowing around in the wind wherever society and culture goes. I've got control of that. So one reason I love the gym and strength training and working out and have loved it for such a long time isn't just because of the physical benefits. Also, of course, there's cognitive and mental benefits but it's also because number one, it's all on you. It's not even like a team sport where you could play the best game of basketball ever, the best game of football, whatever, but if the other team is better than you lose. Every time you go in the gym, the weights weigh the same. 45 pound plate is a 45 pound plate. The bars weigh the same every time. There's no one, the weights don't care about your race, your gender, they don't give a crap. It's objective and if you get stronger, you get stronger and you're completely in control of it. So on one hand, that's kind of scary, but on the other, it's like, well, if you take that and you apply that same concept to your business life, your personal life, your relationships, your career, all of that stuff, then number one, you're going to be more successful, but I'd also say you're going to be happier and you're going to be more content. And you can also own, sure, you take your L's, but you also can take credit for your wins, your victories. You can be proud of yourself, hey, I built this thing. I created this. It wasn't just like, oh, I got lucky or whatever, something goes wrong, you own it and be like, yeah, cool, I made a mistake, I made an error. And you can pick which path you want. You can take the path of, all right, I'm never going to accept any type of responsibility or accountability. I'm just a victim. Everything else is the fault of the patriarchy and white supremacy and fat phobia and this and this. Come up with all the excuses and all the buzz terms you want and you can live that way. Or you can just be like, you know what? I'm an adult. I'm responsible for where I end up in life. We don't choose where we, we certainly don't choose where we start, right? Like the cards you get dealt, we don't know. We don't pick your parents. You don't pick what year you're born in. You don't pick- Your country. You don't pick your country. There's tons of stuff we don't have control over. I would argue though that in the mod, if you live in the modern day West, I would largely argue that with some, of course there's exceptions and caveats, but generally where you end up is up to you. You won the lottery if you were born in the West for the most part. If you compare yourself to the rest of the world. I agree. I would argue, I always make this argument that fitness is one of the most powerful, yet most unassuming vehicles for personal growth because you don't know you're necessarily on a vehicle for personal growth. You think I'm just going to get fit or I just want bigger arms, but then along the way you learn like self-acceptance. Like I don't know, you've been doing this for a long time, but I'm sure at one point you realized you're not going to look like your favorite athlete or bodybuilder, like I remember as a kid, I realized I'm not going to look like Arnold no matter what I do, but then I just accepted it and I just kept going anyway. Like that's a huge life lesson. So it's not just about being empowered to change things for yourself. It's also accepting what you can't change. And that was a huge lesson for me as a kid. So now in the real world, I can look at a situation and I can see I have some control over this or I don't and if I don't accept it. Otherwise we're going to be, life is going to suck. We can make this torturous or we can make this feel a lot better. So that's what I think about fitness. And I think it is funny how they're painting fitness now. For example, there were some articles talking about how gyms are fat phobic and terrible places. The most accepting places on earth for anybody who's overweight is the gym. You've been in gyms for a long time. You've been working out for a long time. Tell me it's not the most accepting place for your sexuality, race, weight, gender. Like you're in there lifting weights. You're working out next to someone who's working out lifting weights. They could be 80. They could be 12. They could be obese. They could be male, female, gay, whatever. You don't care. We're working out in the gym. Yeah. And everyone's trying to better themselves. I mean, that's actually the most amazing thing about a gym environment is everyone is literally in there because you are trying to better yourself. And any decent person is never going to knock or take shots at or insult someone who is genuinely striving to make themselves better. There's a huge difference between someone who weighs 600 pounds and is making every excuse under the book and blaming everyone but themselves on their thing and isn't eating trash and not even exercising or whatever versus someone who weighs that same amount and they're trying to get their diet in order and they've taken responsibility and they're putting in the effort to get better. Right? Those are completely on the surface. Those people may look similar, but they're completely different. And here's another thing about it's impossible. It's impossible to significantly, at least naturally, to improve your physique and fitness for the better without also improving your mindset. It's impossible. They're hand in hand. They're hand in hand. If someone has lost 100 pounds, it's not just their body that's changed. No, they grew as a person. Their mind has changed. And it has to because you can't lose 100 pounds unless for a significant amount of time, consistently, you apply certain principles, discipline, perseverance, overcoming obstacles, consistency. All of the things, all the social challenges, all the physical and mental challenges that you have to go through to lose that 100 pounds, that's a lot of body weight to lose, man. Some people have lost 200, 300 pounds. And you come out, you're the same person, but you're a different person. Same, if someone has gained, if a dude has gone from skinny to jacked, right, especially if they've done it naturally, you can't do that without becoming a better person. You have to. And all those ideas, all the lessons you learn from the gym, all those same things you apply, if you apply them to anything else, if you apply them to your relationships, if you apply them to your podcast, if you apply them to business, whatever, then it works. So it's such a great way of just teaching those principles that you can then take in other areas of your life and you just apply it in the same areas and you will get some degree, you'll get some degree of success. This is why I used to love training kids and I used to love training really old people, the really old people because they were so wise. So when I'd train them, I would ask them questions and I would just get all this great wisdom. And kids, because I would see in real time their growth and kids just, they're just primed to change and grow faster than adults. So I'd have, I'll never forget this, I had this one kid that I trained, he was 13, super insecure, almost in tears when his dad hired me because he went swimming with his friends, I didn't want to take off his shirt. So we started training together and through that process, he became this confident young man and they started dating this girl, became a trainer, eventually became a trainer and it totally changed his life. And it wasn't, and I didn't, it was like, I'm not coaching him on that stuff. All I did was, hey, last week you did two push ups. This week you just did three. Do you know what that means? And he'd look at me like, no, what does that mean? Like, you're not the same person. And just see the light bulb go off in his head. He's like, I am not the same person. Like look what I can do, I can put work and change. And then the self-acceptance part, this is why it's so important, this whole body acceptance thing is baloney, or at least the way it's been twisted. Yes. Real self-acceptance, like when you do this long enough, like you have to do a lot of acceptance. Like, you know, I work out, I do pretty well at it, but I got to accept that I get older. I'm not gonna be as strong as I was when I was 30. In 20 years from now, I'm not gonna be as strong as I am now. If I want to keep doing it, I better accept the fact that I'm getting older and I better modify what I'm doing and change it according to my lifestyle. So, to me, part, this is one of the reasons why I was so surprising that this strange parasitic mindset was trying to infiltrate the fitness space, because I remember thinking to myself, all this is gonna do is prevent people who don't understand from starting. But everybody who's been doing it, you can't touch us. You cannot go to somebody who's been working out for 20 years. It's an incubator for self-improvement and growth, so of course they're gonna take it. I think it goes back to what we said earlier, is just that I think we got to a point where the education system has influenced these kids at such a young age that they come out and they're looking for it. Even though they haven't even opened their eyes and realized, oh my god, we're in this amazing time, but they've been educated to look through that lens. Therefore, when they get out into the real world, they look at every situation from that bias of like, there's gotta be some sort of racism. There's gotta be some sort of sexism. There's gotta be something going on here. Let me find it. I call that problematizing, right? Problematizing, looking at everything through the lens of trying to find out what's the problem, what's the disparity, what's the discrimination, what's the, let's problematize everything. And that's where they get these really goofy articles from, right? So when you see these articles of like, the dangerous rise of far-right exercise or the white supremacist roots of bodybuilding or whatever, these goofy ideas, that's what it comes from. It's people problematizing, right? You're looking at a situation that's completely fine and you're trying to be like, okay, there's gotta be a problem here. So let me, even if I gotta scrape the barrel, let's find out what it is. You know what's funny about that? By the way, if you wanna know that this is just complete bullshit propaganda, these people who say the racist roots of this, the racist roots of that, why don't they ever point to the racist roots of the leftist parties in America? This is where the KKK literally was part of the Democrat Party. Or why don't they point to the racist roots of Planned Parenthood? The founder of Planned Parenthood was Eugenicist, who literally thought it would be great if we could wipe out minorities, because in her idea, they were not as good. And the reason why they don't, by the way, that doesn't mean that the Democrat Party today is racist. That doesn't mean today that Planned Parenthood is Eugenics, although some people still argue that. I would say they are, but. Some people, and we'll get to that. Some people still argue that. It just points that they will pick and choose how they can use propaganda, and it never gets reflected back. This is how you know they're full of crap. This is how you know they're not being genuine. That's also how you know they're both on the same team, too, though. That they both are just taking turns on who's the evil one on this side, and behind doors we're on the same side, and it's really about dividing and conquering. That's my opinion. Okay, so you said, this doesn't mean Planned Parenthood is still practicing Eugenics or whatever. You said, I'd argue that. What do you mean by that? Well, first of all, I would say that Eugenics is, wow, we're going here. Okay. So firstly, Eugenics is not gone anywhere. This is the reality of it. No sane person in 2023 would consider themselves a Eugenicist, and would have a natural adversion to that term being used. But the truth is that modern Western countries all have Eugenic policies, and that millions of people in our countries support Eugenics, even if they don't call it that. How do you mean explain? Give you some examples. Give you some examples, okay. Why is there no Down syndrome in Iceland or Denmark? How did they eliminate Down syndrome? No, that's true. How did they do it? No, they aborted. They aborted 100% of babies to Down syndrome. Okay. In the UK, the typical abortion limit is 24 weeks, which is extraordinarily late. There's no limit if there is any type of disability. That disability could be as light as a cleft palate, a cleft lip, right? So if it's determined a baby has a cleft lip in the 34th week, totally legal and fine to abort that child, completely, fully viable for 34 weeks, that child could live and survive. Cleft lip, hardly the most severe thing. Very solvable. Yeah, I mean, by definition, that's Eugenics, right? By definition, even if someone doesn't want to call it that, they might call it a woman's right to choose, or reproductive freedom, or reproductive justice. Relabeled. They'll relabel it, but that's Eugenics. That's literally what it is. I mean, yeah, and people might shy away from that word, but yeah, that's just the reality of it. And then if you're talking like Planned Parenthood, I mean, they still push their, obviously, majority of them, I believe, are still located primarily in minority communities. They're always pushing the propaganda. Of course, they do it under the frame of abortion being some type of freedom for quote unquote, women of color hate that term. And that, you know, oh, black women need access to abortion and all these, they try to flip it all on its head. But ultimately, I mean, that's the greatest killer of black people in the country by far. There's places where there's more black babies aborted than born in every given year, which is horrendous. I mean, I'd say even, I'd say even for someone who's position on abortion is in favor of the rights. I mean, that's an awful statistic. So you're pro-choice, but you're... No, I'm not. I'm pro-life. I'm out for full transparency. I'm very strongly pro-life. But I'm saying even for someone who would consider themselves pro-choice, I think most people would still consider more black babies being aborted than being born year on year in a location is not good. Like, that's a concern. Yeah, like, there's an upstream problem there, like what's going on. And then even if you look at the numbers, I mean, the... I'm not American, but I know that the black American population, you know, sort of should be higher than it is. But it's essentially been stemmed and cut as a result of these policies. And then things are being pushed. You know, there's a lot of propaganda when it comes to this particular issue, crazy amounts of profits. Might be one of the most propagandized issues in the world. And so I think that, yeah, over the decades, people have been pushed and pushed to see this through a certain lens, a simple lens of, you know, a woman's issue rather than a human issue, you know, not a life-and-death issue, but, you know, just something about, you know, freedom or liberty or medical choices or justice or anything like that. And it's not. And if you get to the nuts and bolts of it, then, you know, when you have that real discussion, then I find that people tend to shift more in the pro-life direction once they actually have the information and they really, really think about it beyond the buzzwords and the euphemisms. I think it's Andrew Schultz, he's a comedian. He does this bit, which is hilarious. He goes, you know, I definitely am pro-choice, but you're killing a baby. And so like everybody first they cheer and afterwards they're like, ah! And I think you can be objective. You could be pro-choice, but you can also say, well, yeah, we're definitely killing a human or the potential for a human. I do think that if we were to reach our pinnacle of peace and prosperity and, you know, our potential, we would value human life so much that even the potential for human life or if you want to consider that, the potential would be totally cherished. I'd say it's a human life with potential, not a potential human life. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. But I do think that it's very complicated in the sense that there's a strong market demand. And what would we do? Because I think the black market for that would be so terrible and dangerous, especially now, with the demand being so high. It's such a complicated issue. I think, you know, I'm kind of glad you brought that up because the truth is, I think the real adult conversation of this can kind of happen. It can happen on multiple levels, but I think that by the time you're talking about the issue of abortion, something has already gone wrong upstream. Right? Something's already gone very wrong upstream. Again, on an individual level and on a general level. Right? You're talking about market demand. Yeah. Right? So if there's a demand for how many abortions are in the USA every year, I think it's between 700,000 and a million per year. Right? What is going on upstream socially and culturally where that is the situation? Right? And it's the, again, it's increased secularization. It's promotion of promiscuity. It's certain social cultural ideas that have been pushed so hard over the decades. Because look, let's be real. We all know where babies come from. Right? We're not living in some dark ages where it's like, okay, we don't know. Oh, do women just sort of randomly get pregnant? It's like, look, we know. We know what happened. Yes. Right. Like there's something upstream that's happened. Logistics. Right? You know, we have access to, I believe there's over 40 different forms of birth control and contraception. There's not getting pregnant or not getting someone pregnant is not, it's not rocket science. Right? Like we know how these things work. We know how they can be prevented in ways without, you know, massive ethical issues and so on. Yet people are acting as if that's not the case. Again, it's the denial of responsibility and accountability. And I would say that the attitude, this modern approach towards abortion is kind of like the ultimate example of this outright denial of responsibility and accountability. It's just like, okay, well, even if it means killing the most innocent, you know, member of our species, let's, you know, let's just hide it under the rug. Right? Just hide it under the rug. This thing has happened. And it's just, just get rid of it. Let's just, you know, just hide it away and use this euphemism and people are going to kind of think it's kind of think it's okay. And I think that's, I think that's gross. I'll be real with you guys. There's no, I think this particular issue is the greatest blight on modern society. I would go that far. I think this is the great, just like, you know, for all those thousands of years where, you know, I imagine that during, even during the days of slavery, right? Even here in the USA, like the USA was still like, you know, one of the most progressive and, you know, so-called liberal countries and so on, right? People at that time would have thought, like, cool, like, we're advanced, we've got great technology, but you just have this blight, right? You've still got people who are enslaved and working in fields and being discreet. Like, it's this ugly underbelly that's there and it might seem on a surface level, like everything is, oh, things are cool, things are fine. But then there's this kind of thing going on underneath and people don't really want to touch it or approach it because it's kind of, it's not very popular. I feel like abortion is very much that issue. It's not something like you sort of see or are conscious of day to day or whatever or really think about, but it's kind of just, you know, as I said, a million a year just in this country, a million a year, right? It's wild to me and it's the, there's, regardless of where you stand, the inconsistencies on one side are very strange. Like, if we sent a probe to Mars and found cells that were alive, we would come back and say there's life. We found life on Mars, okay? If a pregnant woman gets hit by a drunk driver. Double homicide. It's a double homicide. So this, it's very strange. There's no consistency with that. And that's the part that really trips me out. And this is part of why I'm pro-life because it's a coherent position, right? So we know that, look, everything is either alive, dead or inanimate, right? We know that a human baby in a womb is a human baby in a womb, right? Women post up their scans, you know, 12 weeks. No one's ever attended a fetus shower. No one's ever asked a pregnant woman how her fetus or blastocyst or embryo is doing. By the way, that's clear, that's clear political, like they change words and stuff. They change the words, right? You know, people ask when is the baby due? If a pregnant woman is drinking alcohol, people are like, ooh, that's bad. Why is it bad? Because it's harming the baby, right? So there's, people tend to be weirdly, the pro-life position is very consistent, right? It's consistent, it's simple. It's not complicated, it's, this is an innocent human life and it's morally wrong to intentionally terminate an innocent human life, regardless of the age, regardless of the size, regardless of the location. That's the position. So-called pro-choice arguments, there's like 100 different ones, right? Some people will deny the humanity, some people will say, okay, well, eight weeks, some people says 12 weeks, this person says 15, this person says 20, this person says 24. This person says any type, like it's not coherent because you have to keep moving the goalposts and using euphemisms in order to get around either the human part or the killing part. Yeah, I think we know inherently that's why. We know, and nobody wants to say I'm killing a human, I think we know and that's why we do it or that's why we accept the verbiage that comes at us politically, like fetus, like it's a right, it's, you know, I think that's why, and I think if we wanted to really, because it's very important, you can't have this conversation without talking about the root of some of these, and I think two things would make a big difference. I think one is, and this doesn't make any sense, actually makes sense to me when you think they want to keep this a wedge issue, but one, there's no reason why birth control shouldn't be available over the counter. There's no reason. You could be over the counter, pharmacist. No, you got to go to get a prescription. Okay. Should be over the counter. So a girl could go get birth control, shouldn't be a problem. That's one. The second thing is, I think society has done such a media, popular media has done such an effective job at making, having kids look like a burden and this sucks and oh my God, all your life is over. You can't go out and party, you can't do what you want. Everything's ruined. It's crazy to me. I have kids. It's hard. It's expensive. I wouldn't trade them for anything. Good. It's the most meaningful, amazing, purposeful thing I've ever done in my entire life, but we're not sold that. We're told that if you're a man, oh, now you got kids, life's over. It's over. You can't go, oh, you're a, if you're a woman, you got kids, you're oppressed. These children are oppressing you. I feel like if we valued having children the right way, like it used to be a man's glory was how many kids he had. Men would go, how many children do you have? Oh, I got 15 kids. Wow. Congrats. I feel like that plays a big role too. And not even long. We're not talking, we're talking a few decades of science. This is the crazy part, right? We're not talking about these attitudes. It was really the 60s from what I understand that like stuff really started to change. It's when we divorced sex from pregnancy with birth control where this started to happen. Exactly. And this has fallouts, you know? And I think the fact that we're even having this conversation, that's a fallout of those last few decades. It's a fallout of hookup culture. It's a fallout of the decline of marriage. It's a fallout of these narratives that are being pushed both to men and to women in terms of what your life should look like and what things are virtues and what things are vices and so on. It's like, I call it the inversion agenda, right? Everything just being flipped on its head. Everything being flipped on its head. But yeah, it's a sad issue. And I do think in the future, I do think that future humans will look back on this and look back on some of the attitudes in the way that we look back at slavery. I will go that far. I think people will look back and they'll look at the numbers and they'll look at the blasé attitudes or even some of the outright promotion of it. And they will be, they'll be gobsmacked. They'll be thinking, how did people just, you know... I also think too that there's a lot of hang-up with two specific issues with it in terms of incest and rape. And then that becomes... The driving factor. The driving factor. Which is also dishonest, right? Because people only use that type of argument on this particular issue, right? So even those cases, typically you're talking under 0.5%. Not even half a percent for those edge cases. But it would be like trying to argue that... If you're accepting the moral weight of the termination of a human life, I mean, for example, if you tried to argue that we can all think of situations where homicide is morally justifiable, right? As defending yourself. Yeah, someone's holding a gun to you or like pointing a gun at someone else and someone shoots them first, right? That's a homicide. No one would say... But then you wouldn't use the fact that justifiable homicide exists to justify homicide in general, right? You wouldn't go, okay, well, there's this 1% situation where morally and ethically that's neutral or fair. So therefore homicide in general is okay, right? Yeah. But that's kind of what people are doing with this situation where you go to the most fringe, most edge case. And really it's an appeal to emotion because most people will be like, okay, like... Rape is terrible. Incest is terrible. Yeah, exactly. But then they're like, okay, so that's why the whole thing needs to be... And it's like, well, no, that doesn't... That doesn't morally nor logically follow that because you can think of an exception case where maybe something has a different moral weight or could be potentially justified at least legally and then say, okay, so therefore it's across the board. So to me, that's just a... It's a dishonest framing. It's a dishonest argument. And I think it would be... Like I said, the things that are frustrating about the argument are the lack of consistency and just honesty among certain people, but then also the ignoring of the upstream conversation. Because if you really want to talk about this honestly, we need to talk about like approach to... We need to talk about sex and sexuality and people's behavior and decision-making. We need to talk about marriage. We need to talk about children and families. Yeah, it's a much bigger, more grown-up conversation. Yes, you can get lost in the weeds of the legality and the moral and the ethical arguments downstream, but I'm like, if we could take this up a level, then... And I would think that regardless of someone's actual view on the issue, most sane people would agree that... Like say someone who considers themselves pro-choice both morally and legally, for example. I think a sane person like that who would still want to reduce the number, right? They'd still be like, maybe they think it's a necessary evil quote-unquote, but they... Everybody agrees that it makes sense to figure out how to reduce this. Everybody used to. This is how deep the inversions got in. You now have people who are actually pro-abortion. That's a real position now, right? So that's really dark, right? To me, that's even like a separate category. Even though it's not my position, I can understand the kind of begrudging position of someone like, okay, well... Necessary evil. Maybe necessary evil, maybe first 10, 12 weeks. That's not my position, but I can understand that better when someone is just full-on like, any reason, any limit, whatever, or people who even say that it's pro-social or it's good because it keeps the population down or because it keeps... All that kind of... I'm like, we were talking before about eugenics. Right, I'm kind of like, dude, that's a... Population troll. That's like a... To me, that's like a very disturbing position. I mean, I've even had conversations with people who... And this logically does follow, right? Who think that, you know, infanticide is morally okay. Because it's... You know, because one of the pro-life positions would be obviously, well, what's the difference between within the womb or outside, right? Like, if someone's arguing that abortion's okay, say up until the point of birth, you know, I'd be like, well, it's the same... What's the difference between inside and out? And some people would take that and go, okay, yeah, there is no difference. So therefore, I also think that for the first six months of a child's newborn's life or whatever, I mean, this is the Peter Singer argument. I don't know if you're familiar with Peter Singer. It was crazy. But his argument is that I think for the first one to two years... Evil. He thinks that infanticide should be legal. And it's kind of like a logical follow-up from that position. Ironically, he himself has made some people pro-life because they're like... That's crazy. They're kind of like, he's right. He's right. But where that leads to is freaking... It's like, okay, so maybe... It's a dark night. Maybe those other people... Maybe they're making more sense because I don't really want to be siding with this. This whole population control thing, it's existed for a while in different belief systems, eugenics. Now you see it with the climate change people. And you hear this a lot like, why would you have a kid in this crazy world and we have too many people? This is so crazy to me because the best tool that humans have ever had ever to solve our problems is innovation and ingenuity. And more people means we do better at that. And by the way, all the data and historical... This is a fact. The more people there are, the more things we figure out, the better off we tend to do. And we can also have... And a lot of countries are gonna have population collapse as a result of these strange beliefs. What the hell is going... Well, fact check me, but I mean, can't you fit the entire world population in the state of Texas? You can. That's just... Yeah, you can. It's crazy to me. It's a weird, crazy belief. It's like, why? Why are they doing this? Why are they telling us to not have kids to... That was too many people that it's... Yeah, people need to die. When the opposite, even just for our standard of living, prosperity, innovation, that's not true. The opposite is actually true. And the fact that there's countries right now, modern societies, that are probably gonna collapse because they can no longer... They don't have enough people to... Japan. Japan is one of them. Italy isn't where my family's from. They're kind of screwed right now. China screwed themselves with their one-child policy. Now they're having to figure out how to reverse that. Why are we being told this? Wow. Okay. This is where I'm just gonna be hypothetical because I don't understand everyone's motives. Number one, there is a depopulation agenda. It's been in place for decades at this point. So, you've been spoken about pretty openly, especially since the 70s. I think there are... My intelligent assumption and inkling is that there are firstly, there are true believers. So, there are people who genuinely believe these sort of Malthusian arguments of it's not about space. It's answering your question to them. It's about resources. Resources. Right? So, in the past, I think it goes back to Thomas Malthus a couple centuries ago where he believed that if the global population passes, I don't know, two billion or something like that, then there's gonna be mass starvation because at the moment we only have this amount of food and this amount of clean water and so on. So, if the population outstrips that, you know, that's gonna lead to all these problems. That's imagining we never innovate, we never prevent anything when it comes to all these problems. Yeah, so I think there are the true believers. There are the people who genuinely, genuinely, truly believe that overpopulation, quote unquote, is a massive issue. It's gonna cause all these problems, and so we need to act now to stem this. I think there's the true believers. And I think they're wrong, but I don't think there's any sort of wickedness or malice in that. And then there are the people who, looping back around to what we said earlier, you know, there are people who I believe are genuinely anti-human, right? They're anti-human. They do not like, you know, maybe they like some individual people, but they're not generally pro-human. They are, they're people who view human beings as this sort of- A cancer on earth. Yeah, you've heard that, a cancer, a parasite. People use that to refer to babies in the womb sometimes, a parasite. The humans are this sort of, by the way, a lot of people who do like mass bombings and mass shootings use the same type of language that human beings are these parasites and wicked creatures and, you know, the best thing for the nature and for the world and for other animals is to reduce, you know, reduce the number of these parasites in their terms. So I think those are the two sort of main lines of thinking. I think one of them is more, I think one of them is wrong, but more quote unquote benevolent in a way. And the other I do just think is like, you know, evil malicious and evil and anti-human. And I don't think that it's, sadly, I don't think that that type of thinking is as rare as I wish it was. When you really talk to some people, you can really see that they're not pro-human, right? They don't really, the type of people who even use terms like, I don't know, speachism, right? Kind of people who think that, okay, well, I've had arguments with people where they're like, well, what's so special about human beings? Right? Like, well, no, no, really, right? They're like, yeah, and I'm kind of like... How long do you want the list? Yeah, and maybe, maybe, maybe this is, again, maybe this is where complete godlessness sort of leads to. Because if you reach the final position that, you know, we are just advanced apes on this spinning planet, then, yeah, why would we have... Like, my argument about what makes human being so special if you go deep, ultimately, I'm going to have to come down to a religious argument, right? Which is that man is made in the image of God and we are uniquely set apart from all other animal species and plant species and so on. We are uniquely set apart and we have a soul and consciousness and so on. And we're made in God's image. Dogs, chickens, cats, monkeys, they're not made in God's image. This does not mean that they don't matter or they don't have value or we should just wipe them out. No, no, no, no. But human beings are uniquely distinct. But if you collapse all that and you don't believe any of it, then it's like, okay, well chimpanzees are equal to us. Dogs, cats, ants, mice, like they're all, they're all equal to us. And so I don't think there's even that much of an issue in wanting to, I don't know, protect or preserve animals or anything like that at all. But I think when you bring human beings down to the level of just being another animal, then that's, again, this is where you end up in this territory. This is where people start making, have you seen what's going on with euthanasia and Canada and some other countries? Now mental illness qualifies you. Yeah, right, but this is where it goes because what happens if a dog is very sick or a dog, you put it down, right? And people are like, well, why can't you do the same? If human beings are just another animal, then what would be the argument against that? And I think because I think people don't think about these things that deeply and realize, okay, well, you hear a lot of people talk about slippery slope fallacies and it's like the slippery slope is not typically a fallacy. It's just seeing second, third, and fourth order consequences of things that are going on. If you make, by the way, this is one of my biggest concerns. This is my biggest concern with the whole push of transgenderism on children. My biggest concern is not most people's concerns because most people are only thinking first and second order. My biggest concern is that if you are saying that a 12, 13, 14 year old child can consent to something so drastic as a social, let alone medical transition, right? If a 13 year old girl is consent to getting a double mastectomy and having whatever, rendering herself infertile, going on hormone treatments, whatever it is because she wants to be a quote unquote different gender, then you are eliminating the concept of children not being able to consent. This is the greatest danger of the push for transgenderism on children. It's not just women's sports or changing rooms or this or that. You are obliterating a hard line that we have always had in society about consent. Why can't a child get a tattoo? Why can't children smoke? Why can't they drink? Why can't they get a car loan? Yeah, right. There's a lot of things we recognize, fundamentally, legally, ethically, morally, there's a distinction between adults. Can't they accept somebody old? Yeah, there's a distinction. Well, this is the problem, right? To me, it's a gateway to pedophilia. It's absolutely a gateway to it. And to some people, that's like, oh, well, that's a fallacy or what. And I'm like, no, it's not, because what would be the argument if you are saying that... And by the way, okay, why do we say that children can't consent to these things? Because the human brain and physical and emotional maturity is not developed enough at a young age in order to... We know that, I mean, brain fully finishes developing around 25, right? And one of the things with young people is they don't understand long-term, they struggle to understand long-term consequences, right? You have to get a lot older until you recognize, okay. We've all been there. Yeah, if I do. Exactly, right, teenagers, pre-teens, impulsive, you're not thinking long-term, which is why you have certain safeguards and things on that. So if you're saying, okay, at 12-year-olds, old or 13 or whatever, you're old enough to make a permanent... Think about this, you're actually, in many of these cases, you'd be rendering the person infertile for life. So you're saying that a 13-year-old is making a decision at 13 about if they ever want to naturally have children. If they want these permanent changes, like you wouldn't let them get a tattoo, right? Because you recognize that's... You don't understand the... You might think, okay, it's cool having this little logo or design on my arm. But cut off your boobs. But it's nutty. It's nutty. I just remembered, I was going to come back to you about something you'd be optimistic about. Now that we've gone right down, we've gone real deep. I didn't know we were going to go this deep on spot games. But... He's like, they're going to talk to me about bench presses. Talking about nutrition and how much protein. I think we've passed peak woke. I think we've passed the peak. I agree. And I don't think we've passed the peak of the stupidity and foolishness, but I think we've passed the peak of the tolerance for it explicitly and implicitly. More and more people on all levels are starting to see some of these problems and more importantly, speak out on them. Talking about these issues in 2017, 2018, 2019, like it was pretty lonely, right? It was kind of like, oh gosh, like why is no one else talking about this? Am I the crazy one? Whatever. You know, just like now, it's okay to sort of question the efficacy and safety of the C19 jabs. And it's okay to question the... Doing that two years ago... Yeah, there you go, right? Like it was, you know, you could do it, but it was like the tide, you passed a certain peak and the tide begins to turn and the Overton window opens. And perhaps this was due to the lockdowns because I think a lot of parents saw what their kids were learning with remote learning and certain things. You had the whole BLM fall out which woke a lot of people up to... Man, I remember. Dude, in 2020, when I spoke out against BLM, people wanted to freaking crucify me, man. Of all that, I've put out over 130,000 tweets. The one that caused... The only one that ever caused real problems for me in my personal life was my criticism of BLM. Now you saw early on when you saw them... Remember when we didn't post the Black Square? People's heads exploded. We refused to do that. So you saw that early on where you looked at it and you said, because I saw this, I saw this, I said, oh, these are opportunists. They're totally taking advantage of a situation. They're going to capitalize on it. And because all these... There's no real leader. And because all these corporations want to capitalize on this movement as well, they're going to virtue signal and they're going to promote this organization. And so I agree with the sentiment. I don't agree with the organization. And now we know. We look back. We look at the tax records. Yeah, well, this is what's interesting because I mean, I worked out this organization was a scam maybe back in 2017 or so because BLM's not new. I mean, like, it didn't just start in 2020. It started, I believe, in 2015, 2016, whenever I think after the Michael Brown shooting. So I had done... Like, I knew it was run... I've known for five years. I've known for five years that it's run by Marxist. What's right away is a run openly. Yeah, it's run by Marxist. They've got like all these agendas that have nothing to do with Black people. They're trying to overthrow capitalism and dismantle the nuclear family and all the things. Even the tagline versus what they promote, it's like, well, you know, the movement is really Black Lives Matter if killed by a white police officer in dubious circumstances during an election year. Right? Like, that's really the full... And it gets media. Yeah, like, that's really the full thing, right? The top 20 killers of Black people in America or worldwide, the police are not one of them. Okay, it's not even in the top 20. So if you had a movement called Black Lives Matter and you genuinely meant what it said on the tin, then let's talk about... Let's talk about heart disease. Let's talk about strokes. Let's talk about accidents. Let's talk about suicides. Let's talk about homicides, primarily, who are... Which are committed by other Black people on Black people. Let's talk about all the things. Let's take the top 10 things that kill Black people and let's make a movement around trying to... You're getting no money. ...reduce those things, right? Yeah, exactly. You're ideological. And also, if your issue is police brutality and police killings, the police in the USA every single year kill more White people than they do Black people. Most people can't even name one, right? Yes, proportionate as a percentage of the population. It's disproportionately Black people and so on. But it's like, look, this thing is just a scam. It's a hijacking. And if you really wanted to talk about... Whether you want to talk about the police brutality or police violence issue or you wanted to talk about Black lives actually mattering and things that are killing Black people, and top of the line, actually abortion, then these would be very different conversations. And you wouldn't want to racialize the police brutality and police killing issue because the majority of people being killed by police in the USA, even in these unarmed situations and scenarios where it shouldn't be happened, are not Black people. So why are you limiting to that? Obviously, they're doing it for political reasons and to jack up people's emotions. But yeah, anyway, I worked this all out many years ago. So when I saw this reincarnation come up again in 2020, I was like, this thing's a scam. And people were like, oh my gosh, how dare you? Yeah, what kind of comments are you getting? Man, I don't even want to get into it too much because it was actually, it got too close to home. It got way too close to home. I've been vindicated now, obviously, because with all the tax filings and all the stuff that fell out, people now know, again. Some don't though. You don't say it's crazy how much that doesn't hit the mainstream. You have to kind of dig for that a little bit. Yeah, not everyone. But literally, summer 2020, when I came out and said that BLM is a scam, like people weren't really not with me, man. Now I can say it like two years later, you can say it and it's like, okay, you're now kind of quote unquote allowed to say that. One of the things I get a lot of flak from is just being early. I get a lot of flak. I was early on like the C19 stuff. I was early on the BLM stuff. Like sometimes I'll just say something that's on the trans stuff. I just kind of say things early and you receive a ton of flak for that and get called all sorts of names or whatever. And then one year, two years, three years down the line. You get vindicated. Yeah, you get vindicated and no one kind of recognizes that. I recognize that about you. I see you always one of the first people to speak out. A bit of a maverick. When it's very unpopular, say what you're going to say. At the very least, question. You do a good job of just questioning that. I appreciate, even if I were to disagree with you, by the way, I appreciate anybody who has the courage to do that. Because I mean, your business is built now around media. And we now know just how much control and power they have and how they can shut people off and kick them out. I'm sure you've got shadow band many times. Yeah, my account was throttled until Elon took over from probably 2019 until Elon took over. I wasn't shadow band, but my account was throttled, meaning that they just like remove followers. Yeah, they limit my follower growth. But I'll be honest, man, to me, it's not the thing I, the compliment I get most often wherever I am is actually people thanking me for my courage or bravery. And while it's sort of flattering in one way, I don't even consider myself like stupendously brave or courageous, because I just think the bar for that has fallen a lot, right? I'm like, bro, you speak the truth. You're so courageous. Yeah, I'm like, man, I'm just, I'm just talking about truth. Yeah, I'm trying to like, I'm just talking. Like I'm not, you know, being shipped off overseas to, you know, go fight, you know, have bullets flying at me or bombs or whatever. Like I'm just saying what I think on podcasts and on Twitter and on stage. And again, I don't think that anything I'm saying is, you know, whether people agree or disagree with various elements of it, you know, I don't think anything I'm saying is sort of that out there or, you know, some sort of crazy position or anything like that. But yeah, to me, it's an ethical and it's a moral duty. It's not, to me, it's like a compulsion. It's not something that I have to sort of motivate myself to do. It's like, I can't not, if I have a belief or a position on something, and I've really thought it through and I'm seeing, you know, like if I see the train of society and culture sort of speeding up ahead and I know that there's a knot in the railway line or there's something that's going to derail the train or it's heading towards a cliff, just like I'd feel compelled to say something, right? Not just keep quiet because while other people can't see the knot in the line. So let me just watch this accident happen in slow motion. I'm like, I feel a compulsion to get, hey, this is where we're heading. And if we're not careful, it was like with all the, all the, all the Rona stuff, right? With the lockdowns and the mandates and this and I was saying in 2020, early 2020 to mid 2020, what was going to happen, right? I was calling it saying like, look, if you accept this, this is going to eventually lead to people, you know, I saw the Vax mandate before the Vax was even. You recall the conspiracy theorists. I was talking about quote unquote, vaccine passports before the vaccine was even rolled out, right? And people are like, no, that's not going to happen, whatever. And I'm like, dude, if you, this is a compliance ladder that you're on. If you, if you accept each of these steps, then you're eventually going to be in a position as a nation, as a society, where this thing is being mandated and now you're not in a position to fight back. And that's exactly how it played out. And, um, yeah, I could just, I could just see it coming. Do you know what's really scary is, could you imagine if it actually worked better? If what worked better? The vaccine. Imagine if actually the statistics that have rolled out for the last year actually were, were more favorable. It would justify it. Like that to me is what's really scary. I'll tell you what. It's like, we're almost lucky that all the stuff came out later, that look, it still spreads. Look, if you're at this age, it really doesn't. It's like, this is a shitty vaccine. It's all intense. I mean, could you imagine, do you know, you know what? A lot of people have said that, or imagine if the virus was a lot worse, right? People say that it would have been better. You think so? Yes. Okay. Tell me how. Because you wouldn't, there wouldn't have needed. So some people are like, well, what if the virus had like a 10% kill rate instead of 0.2 or whatever it is, right? You wouldn't need any coercion. No, everybody would just, yeah. You wouldn't, you wouldn't need any coercion. If there were genuinely, genuinely, okay. Imagine if there was like, I don't know, airborne Ebola, right? Imagine if there was just something floating around outside. And if you get it, even as a young, healthy man, that's a good point. Like there's a 20, 30% It's easy to localize it. Yeah. There's no mandates. There's no coercion. There's no playing people off of each other and dividing. There's no propaganda to pump up the PR and the advertising of the virus or anything like that. It's just like, look, this is the reality of it. People are naturally self-preserving and people will. It's a good point. People will act accordingly. The reason why they even were able to do so many of these shenanigans is that it kind of hit the sweet spot of being like, not like, not, not complete, not a complete nothing burger. Right. Right. Not like, okay, it's literally just a cold. It wasn't that, but also not so date. Like it was kind of, it hit this sweet spot. It was close enough that you wanted to people connected to somebody that really affected. Yeah, exactly. Right. So they could step in and do all of the coercion because people were not, you know, some people were like, oh my gosh, I'm freaking out. I'm double masking. I'm doing this. I'm doing that. Other people are like, whatever. Right. Let's just go about our lives. And this created this clash. Super division. And so, yeah, where they are then able to, once people are divided, you can always step in as an authority. And people have a fundamental misunderstanding of liberty on that content in that scenario because people like, well, it's, yes, you're free, but you're not free to give it to someone else. No, no, that's not how freedom works. You are free to take the risks you want to take and meet with who you want to meet with. And if you want a business, you're free to put a sign on your door that says, if you're unvaccinated, you can't come in here. And if you're vaccinated, you can. That's freedom. Not, you're not free to give it to someone else. Yeah, no, no, no. You can stay home. You can meet with people. You take the risks you want. That's liberty. And by the way, when you compare the states, and this is one of the two things I think kept America freer than most of the Western world during that period of time, even though I think we still went too far, one was, I think, our Second Amendment always makes people go, huh? The second one is our state system because we have states that can say, no, the federal government can't necessarily impose across the country. And but what that did is we have wonderful comparisons. You can see how free states acted versus not so free states. And what's funny is that when the infection rates got high, people in states that were more free, they still kind of acted the way that people would normally act. They stayed home more. They didn't meet with people as much. So it was a lot better. But I do think this is important to say, and I'd love your opinion on this, it seems to me that one of the litmus tests or one of the ways you could see what's going on in the world is whenever there's something very powerful, a movement, it's a prime vehicle to be hijacked. Like racism, it really existed. And there were movements towards working against, taking laws down that were clearly discriminatory, then it started to get hijacked. Feminism, there were real laws against women and women couldn't have, they couldn't take. Old wounds are just exploding. Yeah, and they just kind of hijacked it. The LGBT community, right? You had real issues where if you were gay, you could get thrown in jail and that kind of stuff. And but it started to get hijacked and it gets hijacked by these groups that grab onto this movement and then say, and a lot of them are Marxists and Marxist theory doesn't just have to be economic. They got their asses kicked economically so they don't even focus on that anymore. Now they like to focus on the other stuff. They tend to get hijacked. Do you think, for example, the latest one, the big one, right, is the LGBT movement and in particular this kind of transgender movement, do you think they're gone too far? Do you think they've been hijacked? Yes. Here's a bar for you. Every social movement without a clearly defined finish line, ultimately ends up becoming what it's set out to fight against. How do you mean? They all, so if there's not a clear end line, clear goal, where it's like, okay, after we achieve this, we can, we're done, we can chill out our activism, right? They go and progress to the point, it was like that Pac-Man analogy. I'm just gonna steal this and say, I'm gonna close the Pac-Man theory. Where they come out on the other side, where they become the bigots, they become the intolerant, they become the hateful ones, they become the ones dividing people, they become the ones obsessed with the labels and whatever. I don't give a crap if someone's gay. I don't care, I don't care, whatever, but they beat you over the head with it and they start actively discriminating against other people and applying these names and labels to other people, where they claim that was, so look at modern day what they call quote unquote anti-racism. They've come full circle background to, you should judge people by their skin color, you should treat people differently and talk to people differently based on their skin color. We should have different rules and laws and policies based on someone's skin color, whether it's affirmative action, or I've seen live events where they charge white people more for the tickets, right? I've seen live music events, person of color ticket, $30, white person ticket, $50. What? What, right? Preparations are there. Yeah, it's bonkers, right? Look at the excesses of feminism, okay? As we know, when someone gets way too deep on this modern day feminism stuff, what happens? They end up hating men. They end up becoming sexist. It becomes a female supremacy movement. It's no longer about gender equality and fairness and equal opportunities. Now it's smashed the patriarchy. Now it's men are toxic. Now it's boys are defective girls. Now it's, why do we even need men, whatever? Like it gets to this level where you set out apparently to fight against hate or discrimination or inequality or unfairness or whatever, and you go so far that now the boots on the other foot and you're the person who's kind of got the sort of sort of social power. I've seen it firsthand. I've seen it firsthand with my son. And it spins around, yeah. He, you know, going to school got bullied for not being gay. For what? Not being gay. That wild, you know, I remember when I came to work and he told us I, what is happening? There's whole school classes where the entire class identifies as a community. It just blew my mind. Yeah. Yeah. It just went completely full circle. Yeah. It's, if a movement has, oh no. Oh, you should see what you can do. I believe it, but that's so nice. It's just happened one. Two years ago, was it a year or two ago? He came to work and he told us a story and he's like, yeah, there's like six of these kids and they're running around with a rainbow flag and then they're picking on kids. They actually had to ban the flag for a while and they're picking on the stray kids. Bull move by the principal. I mean, look, it's interesting. I mean, I had an interesting experience in November. I got protested for the first time. So I spoke at a university in Florida, funnily enough on freedom of speech, and about 40 protesters a show or so showed up. And you know, they had their chance, they had their flags, their signs. I'd never been personally protested before and it was quite surreal. Yeah. But it was interesting because again, it was a great example of them being what they think, they are what they think they're fighting against. They think they're fighting against intolerance and bigotry and I'm like, you're the ones trying to shut me down, funnily enough, a black man. Not even to play that card, but there's this irony in it with all these white kids there protesting me and trying to get me on levels like, oh, you know, some of them are holding BLM signs. I'm like, this is cute. You know what I mean? You're like, do you guys not see me? Right out of the South Park. Yeah, you're like, are you guys not sort of seeing what you're doing? Anytime something has a lot of power, then it's primed to be taken over by people seeking power, in particular politicians. If a movement is over, I mean, you don't have the power behind it. If something is solved, if a problem is solved, we no longer have that issue that we can hang over people to get them to vote for me. So it becomes politically powerful to have and talk about lots of these issues. It's an effective tool. When you find an effective tool, this is true for all human history. I can use fire as an example. Fire, very, very transformative, powerful tool. I can build with it. I can build societies with it. I can burn you. I can take you down. Nuclear energy, man. We could provide energy for the whole world. We could actually solve our climate issues with nuclear energy. We could also make nuclear bombs and kill each other. So I think that's what happens. Anytime you see a big movement, always look for the people. So I tell my kids, anytime you see a huge movement, look for the people who are ready to grab that movement and use it for nefarious reasons, because they're there and they're waiting. They're waiting for something. Yeah. I think it's really important to always check power, both within ourselves as individuals and also on a societal level. Because, as they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely. And just as we were talking about different personality types, some people do absolutely have a tendency towards authoritarianism and power tripping. And you can see this with certain parents. You can see it with certain bosses. All these human traits are put on a normal, they're all on a normal distribution curve, right? So there's always going to be a 5% who are on that end and a 5% on that end. And some people, you give them some power however little and immediately they're tripping off it and they're trying to control everyone. Oh, I'm amateur. Yeah, exactly. It could be the most minor hall monitor, right? Like it could be the most minor thing. And that's something that we always have to be aware of and in ourselves as well. I constantly, I do my best to consciously check myself on multiple things all the time, right? As my star grows and I become more popular and more influential and whatever, especially, I always have to, you know, I'm aware of my own personality type and things that I might have a tendency towards or a leaning. And day after day, multiple times a day, you have to kind of re-ground yourself and apply perspective and apply gratitude and, you know, stay attached to the world and know what to, you know, it's a constant battle to navigate. But I think that one thing, I'm a big fan of one thing that hopefully I've been able to do on this podcast and with all the other work that I'm doing is to just, you know, raise human consciousness somewhat, raise the level of critical thinking, raise the level of self-empowerment and people taking accountability and responsibility and doing my best to lead by example, both for people younger and older than me. And I think if everyone just did that and focused more on that internal, rather than external, locus of control, then I think that's how we truly change the world. And it doesn't mean that, you know, we're all going to end up agreeing with each other on everything. We're all going to be on the same team at rate. But at least at a minimum, things will be civil and people can get on with each other. And people will at least understand each other, right? You can at least be like, okay, you know what? Okay, we agree on these things or we disagree on these, but the disagreement is not because you're evil or because you're hateful or because you're discreet. It's just that, you know, we have a slightly different angle on disagreeing. And here's another thing that's interesting. And this is why these type of conversations are so important because I think oftentimes people just see the final conclusions and they miss all the epistemology of people's arguments. And what I mean by that is say you take any of these issues that people talk about, right? And one person reaches this position, one person reaches that position. If you only know the end point and you don't know how they reach there, then people tend to assume, again, because of the tribalism or just lazy thinking, people often ascribe the worst possible motives why someone may have reached a certain conclusion. Whereas the reality is they, if there's a 10-step process in reaching that conclusion, they could agree on the first eight and then, okay, on the ninth one, that's where they deviate. It's rarely the case that someone holds a position because they're just hateful or because they want the world to be a worse place or because whatever it is, even on something that is, we literally talked about the greatest landmine issue of abortion, right? Regardless of someone's view on it, the easiest and laziest framing is to just claim malice and evil on the other side, right? If you're pro-life, it's very easy, but I would say lazy, to just make the claim that anyone who thinks abortion should be legal or is permissible up to a certain stage or whatever, that they're just evil, they hate babies, they're supporting murder, right? That's the lazy one. Lazy one on the flip side, if someone considers themselves pro-choice and they come across someone as pro-life, oh, you hate women, you're pro-forced birth, you're this, you're that, right? You're sexist, you're trying to implement the handmade's tale, whatever it is, and I can see why people are tempted by that because it's easy to score points and it doesn't take much thinking and it's lazy, but the truth is on this and every other issue is it's way more nuanced and it's interesting to know, okay, why, how have you reached this final answer? You know in school when they say, show your work, right? Even in math, right? Don't just write down the answer is three, right? We want to see how did you get there, right? And maybe there was a, okay, wait, that's not consistent. This is why I think, this is when I start to think positive because of the internet and the infinite amount of bandwidth, we can now have two-hour conversations about topics, whereas before, when I was growing up, it was impossible. The bandwidth was so short, it was like 30 seconds. If you're lucky, 30 minutes, but that was rare, it was a 30-minute discussion. Now we can have podcasts, we could talk things out, people can listen and go, oh, that kind of makes sense or let me question that a little bit. Do you have any mentors, by the way? Do you have any people that you, maybe either consciously or people you know or you don't know, but are there anybody that you look to and you, that influences your way of thinking or you like to kind of look and see their kind of work? I would always say my top mentors and role models, of course, are my parents. And I hope my future children can say the same. In terms of popular figures, I'm a fan of anyone who seeks and speaks the truth and who's willing to have these discussions and conversations. That's why I'm a fan of Jordan Peterson. I like Joe Rogan, I love all the stuff that The Daily Wire is doing. That whole, anyone who's sort of out there and having these, what you guys are doing, anyone who's out here having these conversations and is willing to do it and willing to listen and try to understand the human condition, then I find that inspiring. And I'm trying to do the same thing because I've traveled to so many different countries, I've lived in different places, met so many different types of people. And one thing that's always important to remember in all these conversations and day-to-day life is that most people all around the world want fairly similar things in the grand scheme. And also that people are, human beings are both good and bad. We have virtues, we have vices, we're flawed, but we're also, I often say, we're the best and worst thing on the planet. And we're also the most complicated, especially when you combine millions or billions of us together. Like, what the heck, it's crazy that any of it works. And I genuinely just have a love for humanity. Like I'm very pro-human. It's funny because a lot of people would call me conservative, but I'm very, in some ways, I'm actually very progressive in the sense of my overall view of the fact that I think we can be and we can do better and we can move forward. I don't think the way we move forward is by breaking the entire system and trying to rebuild it from nothing, but by maintaining the things that we know work and carefully tweaking the things that don't and by actually empowering the individual and empowering families and empowering small communities. It's not this top-down, all right, we just need to change that thing in the government and the federal government and make some top-down mandate that's going to fix that. I was like, no, that's not going to, that's going to just lead to tyranny. Have you, have you wanted to quit? Is this, has this? No, if that, no. Have you, so do you, I know you have a pretty optimistic attitude about things and so. Even with all that heat you got, you weren't like, oh, you know. Let's be real, man. I get 100 times more love than I get heat. Okay, good. Like, I get so much freaking love in every city. You're smart enough to attach yourself to that. Every country I get so, especially over the last few years, it's been just love, love, love everywhere. So I'm not going to let a very tiny percentage of people, even though that tiny percent might be thousands of comments and messages or whatever. Is there any aspect though of the, you know, how much your life has probably changed in just the last five years or so that you don't like? I mean, is there parts of it that maybe you didn't see and then you're like, ah, you know, I'm not a big fan of that or I don't like that or I wish I had less of that in my life now. I don't even think that way, man. That's cool. Honestly, I don't think that way. To me, it's a blessing. And my goal, the reason I even wanted to become a musician to begin with in terms of profession is because I wanted to have a positive, inspirational and motivational impact on millions of people. And I realized I wasn't going to do that in the corporate world. Tell me a little bit more of that because I actually don't know that's part of your story of like, you know, was the, was getting out on social, like, was that really motivated by initially, like the trying to get your rap career going and then it just kind of unfolded the way it did? Like, did you have this vision of, I'm going to say these controversial things? No, no, no, no. No. And it's, what's interesting is this shows you how the world has shifted because when I started my music career, I released my first album in 2006. And I put out nine albums and EPs. And it wasn't until the mid to late 2010s, like when I first started, I mean, I was considered like, I don't know, people who knew my music, I was kind of like a British Will Smith kind of, you know, like super uncontroversial. Like I don't even cuss. Right. Like a rapper who doesn't even cuss, doesn't promote any degeneracy. I don't even drink alcohol. Like, you know, I was almost like, he's boring. Right. Like there's not like, that's, that was considered boring. And that was just like whatever. And then the world, it's like the world has tilted so far off its axis and becomes so debased in various ways that someone like myself, to some, is now considered controversial. Even though, right? It's actually really funny when you think about that. You were like this square ass rapper. Yeah, no, it's kind of like, oh my gosh, like, whoa, he's bringing the heat. Yeah, yeah, it's weird. When you started rapping now, did you, did you like, it was part of the reason of being, you know, quote unquote, more square rapper was because maybe you, did you see like how a lot of rap was glorifying, killing and drugs? I mean, dude, I wouldn't even use the term square. I'd just say real. Yeah. You know, I'm just, I'm just real and I'm honest about who I am. Yeah. But you took the approach of not really swearing, you don't drink, you don't promote those things. That's reality because I don't swear in real life. Okay. All right. I'm not swearing in this conversation. I don't swear in real life. So if I went in the studio and I suddenly started cussing up a storm, that would be like, that's fake. Right? Yeah. I've never sold drugs or done drugs. Which you see, okay. You do kind of see that a lot in rap though, right? There's a lot of fakeness going on in rap. There's a lot of fakeness. People pretending to be drug dealers and acting like they're moving weight. Yeah. It's like you've never. It's goofy. Like, I mean, I'm not going to do that. Yeah. Like, number one, it's not real. And number two, it's not pro-social. All right. Well, if I can reach hundreds of thousands or millions of people with a message, especially young people, why would I want to push something that's destructive on them? Especially if I know that it's not real and it's not my own reality or anything like that. So my approach from the very beginning was just like, look, I'm going to be totally real about who I am. Like, I used to, you know, I've got songs where I mentioned that I studied in Oxford University. Right? I'm not there trying to pretend, oh, I came from, I came from the streets and I always had to sell crack to survive. Well, my dad's a faken medical doctor. Like, everyone knows that. Right? Like, I'm from an intact family. My parents have been married almost 50 years. Like, I'm blessed. I'm privileged in many ways. Right? And I will state that and I'm not insecure about it or whatever. It's not a bad thing. So for me, that was always simple and I've simply just taken that and expanded it into more areas. So now, maybe people know me now more from podcasting or Twitter or YouTube or some of the live events and stuff that I do. But it's still the same message. It's been all the way through. If you go back and listen, go back and listen to my album, Commercial Underground, from 2006. I made that when I was in my teens. It's the same messaging. I'm saying the same stuff. Some of it was actually quite prescient, in fact. On the very first song on my very first album, I have a lyric where I say, my style is unbelievable. I did my research and my ideas are inconceivable like men giving birth. Wow, did you really? I said that in 2006. I said that in 2006. I knew what you were trying to be talking about, but we're still pro-lifting, right? You were ahead of your time. 16 years later, you're seeing the op-eds. Can men give birth? I'm like, oh, wow. Like I said that because it was such a far-fetched. People are going to pull up that song and be like, see, he's always been. Yeah, but it shows how much things have shifted. Yeah, it shows how much things have shifted. Look, man, I do my best to do my best and just encourage other people. Encourage other people to do the same. We live in an amazing time where there's so much opportunity and there's so much to be optimistic about and there's so much positive, but also on the flip side, there's a lot of stuff to be pessimistic about and there's a lot of stuff that's concerning and demoralizing and all of that. And through that, even through all the nonsense going on with COVID and whatever, if I can be a light to some people or I can just say something that helps them reframe things in a better way or I've helped tons of people to get in the gym and improve their workouts or pursue what they want to do entrepreneurially, whatever it is. I often don't even know, just like you guys won't, you'll never know exactly how much impact you're having on people, right? All these episodes you've done over the years, there's just something you can flippantly just say in a podcast and you know what, there's one kid who hears that and it's like, yeah, it makes it just click for them and then it puts them on a different trajectory and path and I'm like, and that ripples outwards. We've been impacted like that. So we talk about, we do live events every once in a while, we don't do them that often, but we absolutely love it because it grounds us every time because you get an opportunity to- You get to see the faces. You get to see that and I tell you what, I talk about giving fuel for what you do, like you see that one person who, God, I've never even met that person and look how much that message impacted their lives. It's incredible. Yeah, you know what I appreciate about you is that you don't take any of all of this for granted, which I think is rare these days. You made the comment earlier about how there's billions of people and miraculously it all works. People don't really understand the gravity of that. It is not in our nature to respect somebody's individual liberties or rights. It's not in our nature to not oppress somebody weaker than you or smaller than you. It's not in our nature to have laws that protect people that way or to view people that, you know, as- Although we're different, that we all should be treated the same. That's so against our nature and it's crazy that we're here and I think people have taken it so far for granted that they're going in the opposite direction. I don't think a lot of people realize- You use the term useful idiots. By the way, that's an old term. Useful idiots were the people that helped these revolutions happen in some of these countries where tyrannical regimes took over and then they're the first people to be thrown in the gulags afterwards. I don't think a lot of people realize what they're asking for. I think they take for granted where we're at. I mean, I admittedly was that way. I felt like for- Until I actually thought of it like that, like, wow, it's not in our human nature to do these things. Therefore, having the attitude, like I probably had just say a decade ago of like, you know, as long as you're not bugging me or getting encroaching in my life, I don't care whatever you guys can all argue about it. But when you start to realize the downstream effects of not saying anything and that it is in our human nature to try and oppress and control people, that if you do not speak up, the natural thing that will take its course- You have to constantly stop it because that's the direction that it's always, you know, that's always going. Here's a tell-tale. This is a tell for me. When somebody or an ideology or people that represent an ideology refuse to debate and discuss things, those are the people that are wrong. Those are the people that you should not listen to and not follow because if somebody has good ideas, then they will stand the test of debate, discussion, and the test of time. And if people are not willing to talk and discuss, and especially if they are trying to silence other people from talking, just from talking, that's the enemy. And their ideology is the evil one or the wrong one. So that's the tell. Good ideas don't require censorship. That ideas always do. Totally. Well, bro, this has been great. Thank you guys. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I really enjoyed the condo. This has been a lot of fun. We went so much deeper than I was anticipating, but I'm glad that we did. Oh, we knew we wanted to see. That's our superpower, bro. That was something. I think that- People look at us like, oh, they're meeting. When we found you way back when, I think you, and you said it, I mean, I think I just, it's hard to actually find people that genuinely want to be lights into this world. Right. They can articulate it well. Yeah. So I think we've liked your work for a really long time. I'm just glad we finally made it happen. So glad to hear that. Appreciate it. Appreciate you coming on, man. Thanks guys. Appreciate you. Thank you. Today, we're going to teach you everything you need to know to build a strong, well-developed chest. When I think of weak points and areas that I struggled with developing for a really long time, chest was up there with the- Yeah, it was for me. It was for me, for sure. I got more caught up in the weight I could lift versus how I was developing my body. I think it's one of the most challenging muscles to develop for most people because the form and technique