 It's wonderful, Jeanette, to have our friends back. So that's, we missed you. It's so good to have these like-minded friends back. You are close friends and we look forward to very close cooperation. And that's so good, this feeling that with the big challenges of this world, the huge challenges we have and the biggest crisis is the climate crisis. We need to join forces because the challenge is so big. So let's focus on it. You're listening to the ECB podcast, bringing you insights into the world of economics and central banking. My name is Katie Ranger. Today's episode features a conversation between three special guests. President of the European Central Bank, Christine Lagarde, President of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen and US Secretary of the Treasury, Janet Yellen. They came together on the sidelines of a Eurogroup meeting in Brussels for a conversation about where we stand on gender equality in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic, the measures taken both here in Europe and in the US for a more inclusive recovery, and the importance of transatlantic relations going forward. President von der Leyen, the floor is yours. Thank you so much. And a very warm welcome to my guests here in Brussels in the Berlin Mall. It is a real pleasure to host you and this podcast. And indeed, we want to start this podcast by discussing the question of women empowerment, women economic empowerment. And when I think about that, I come to the conclusion it is basically the question of having a choice, being able to make choices in your life and thus being able to have different opportunities. And we all know the choices you can make in your life if you look at your personal life or your career are of course determined by manufacturers at the beginning of your life. For example, education and access to education is of utmost importance. If we look at education in Europe, for example, of course, there's always things to improve, but it's relatively high standard. What you would expect is that a good education translates into opportunities and choices in your personal and professional career and into the work you're doing. And here the numbers tell a different story. If I look at the European Union, more women study than men. For example, the 30 years old, 46 percent of women have a university degree, but only 35 percent of men. Now, you would expect that translates into professional opportunities, but it doesn't. If you then look at the employment numbers, you see that fewer women work than men. The employment rate of women is 66 percent. The employment rate of men is 78 percent. So you wonder what has happened. And here I can tell from my personal experience I studied medicine and there were many, many highly talented, brilliant women. Actually during my studies, more women than men studying medicine. And I was convinced, of course, that nowadays we would find them in leading positions as medical doctors, but this is not the case. If I look around, I ask myself, where are they? And if you look deeper into the numbers and the stories, then you see a lot has to do with the rush hour of life, the rush hour of life. I always call the time when you're young, you're starting your career, you're having as a couple your first child or your first children, everything comes at the same time. And it is critical that you have an opportunity during that time to master the challenge of the rush hour of life. And here we see that many, many women drop out of their job while men continue while being parents. And if I look at us three here being in politics, I think one of the main tasks is that we act very concretely to create a frame, to create an environment for women and men to be parents as well as having a professional career. Not to have the choice or not the choice for women that it's an either or thing, either children or career, but that you enable the possibility for women to have an as well as situation. And this is for me that we have to make sure there is parental payment at the beginning when you have a small child for fathers and mothers, so that both allocate time with the newborn, that you have excellent childcare, excellent schools, and a workplace that respects and enables parenting. Because if we don't do that in the rush hour of life, it trickles down later on and on and on. So you see that women do loads of unpaid work, which is a beautiful work with children elderly and at home, but it should be shared by both the fathers and the mothers, the sons and the daughters. Women then are being paid less. In Europe, it's 14% less than men per hour. Fewer women make it to the top. And later on, when you're retired, you see it in the retirement payments that are way lower for women than for men. I said fewer women make it to the top. That's my second point. When I speak about economic empowerment, us as leaders, we have the responsibility to encourage women and to approach the gender gap systematically if it comes to leading positions, women at the top. This is the reason why, for example, I was determined and we made it to have a gender-balanced college. It was not easy at the very beginning because member states sent men for the position of commissioners, and I insisted on having a proposal of a man and a woman, but we're there. We have a gender-balanced college and it makes a difference in the debates we have. So the old patterns of very male-dominated debates are not there anymore, and we have completely different debates in the college. For me, this is a major step forward in how you make politics. My last thought is fewer women make it to the top if we don't care. For example, for the rush hour of life, so encouraged to have the as well as children and career and systematically bring women to the top. If I look at G20, there is a chance that at the G20 summit in Rome, I will be the only woman in the group. And this has implication on women's lives, whether they are female leader and male leader or not. And with that, these initial thoughts, I would like to hand over the floor to you, Janet, and I'm curious to listen to you. Thank you so much, Ursuline. First of all, let me thank you for your invitation to be here today. It's really a pleasure and a pleasure to talk about this important topic. Women play an absolutely vital role in the economy, and I agree with you that the impairment of women is a matter of fairness to them and opportunity. It also makes an enormous difference to the functioning and prosperity of the economy as a whole. If you look at the United States, a large share of the gain in family income that we have seen during the post-war period is actually attributable to the entry of increasing numbers of women in the workforce. And the gaps started off huge in terms of pay and other issues and status of the labor force. The gaps have shrunk over time. They're smaller now, but they certainly haven't disappeared. And I absolutely agree with you that if you look at each level, you see that women begin to disappear. The further up you go, the chain in organizations, and they find it difficult to make it to the top levels. I know looking around the G20 and other groups that I've been in, there are more women in the back benches than there are at the main table. And I think in your remarks you've pointed to a number of important reasons why that's true. One of the most important, I think, is that there are so many professions where it's really almost impossible to achieve a reasonable work-life balance. I think we're in professions where we have to be at it 24-7. The imperative is to always be available to deal with anything that comes up at any time. And there are professions where it is very difficult not to be on 24-7. But I think that's something that disproportionately affects women. And as you were saying about medicine, it causes women to begin to be unable or unwilling to make the kinds of decisions that will get them to the very top leadership ranks. As leaders of important organizations, I think it's really imperative that we be attentive to it, to the organization of work, so that it's often not necessary. It's possible to organize work so that people can have a better work-life balance and succeed. But I think we have to be very attentive to it. I think it does make a big difference in how groups perform. You were discussing the commission and the fact that having more women there does change the conversation. In talking about this topic, I find myself very frequently quoting something that Christine has often said when we've been together. She often comments. I hope I'm not robbing you of a wonderful line that we might not have had a financial crisis if it had been Lehman sisters rather than Lehman brothers. That really epitomizes it to me. I think often women do bring to the table different sensibility, different perspective, different focus on what's important and interact differently. In general, I think research shows that groups that are diverse with respect to gender, with respect to race, ethnicity actually engage in better decision-making. Just in terms of the focus of our policies and what we're thinking about, we are all responsible for ensuring that good public policies are put into effect. Having the perspective of more groups and what matters to them and what affects their well-being in their lives, we need diversity around the table in order for that to be true. But we do, we still have a labor force in women in which women are disproportionately disadvantaged. They bear the brunt still of child and elder care responsibilities. Women are disproportionately represented in low-wage occupations in the care and service sectors. You talked about the importance of child care and supports paid leave and the like. Europe is much better at providing those supports for women in the labor force than the United States has been. Once upon a time, the United States had about the highest level of women's labor force participation and now we rank much lower than most European countries. I think it's because we haven't provided those supports for women in the workforce. I think maybe we'll turn to this later in our discussion, but that's a very important focus right now for President Biden in trying to change that situation and provide the supports that we need to promote women's success. Yes, it is a question of infrastructure, but it's also a question how a society allocates time and the respect for parents to have time for their children as well as having time for good work. This should be the most important headline in a society. And with that, Christine, can I hand over to you? Thank you so much, Ursula. And it's really a joy to be together with two grand remarkable ladies who are both friends. I want to go sort of sad news, good news. And the sad news is really almost endorsing everything that you said, Ursula, about women. So women in a nutshell work less. They work part-time more so. They earn less and they lead less. So that's bad news. As is bad news, the fact that the unpaid work, which is the work that we do at home, is significantly larger than that unpaid work done by men. So it's roughly 39 hours per week for women when it's 19 hours per week for men. And that's European numbers. So that's the sad news, in a way. The good news, I think, is that in most instances, in the advanced economies, and I say most instances because there are indications in some corners, in some particular tranches of societies that it's not so true anymore. But in the main, lifetime has increased significantly, continues to increase, and the working life of people tends to be longer. So you talked about the rush hours of life, which I couldn't agree more with. But we now have probably a longer span of time to play with. And I think that from a financial point of view, from a pension point of view, from a benefits point of view, I think this is a plus that we have to explore. The second good news, when I look at my children and their friends, I think they're much more concerned about the work-life balance, not so much time spent at work, time spent at home. But how do we, as a couple, how do we share the burden? How do we allocate the unpaid work? How do we look after a baby when the baby is born and for the few months and years to come? I think that's a new approach that they have, compared with what I've seen, for instance, parents or even in my generation, couple look at that sharing. So two good news. Longer working life, more time to play with. A new cultural attitude, I think, from a lot of millennials and young people. So how can we play with that? And I was trying to think of a few approaches, because you've covered the ground beautifully, and I can only endorse what you've said. I would say, first of all, quotas and targets. And by that, I mean, contrary to what I used to think when I was a young supposedly bright person who thought that she should only be recognized on that brightness and capacity to work, I think quotas are a necessity, because otherwise we will never climb the steps that are just too long, too high for women to climb. Quotas, yes. Targets. What do I mean by targets? When you have a job application that is out there, you generally get a whole bunch of men who think that they are super qualified to get the job. Very few women. So I think that as leaders, as HR resources, directors, as whoever is in the recruiting and in the promoting business, should actually target the talents, solicit them, encourage them and give them the confidence to apply, because that is what we need at the moment. We don't have enough of those women who have studied, as you said, Ursula, who are in the job, but who think, oh, maybe not for me. I haven't studied enough. I'm not good enough. Very few men think along those lines, and I think we should encourage the girls to be more confident. Second, we need to encourage in the early days, and accompany along the way, because of the rush hour. They are often months, sometimes years, during which a woman is going to be either away from the job market or on a part-time basis. And I think that for those periods of their life, when they contribute to society in a big way, at least from an economic point of view, that's what I see, they need to be compensated. And there has to be a makeup mechanism where whether it's promotion, whether it's salary raises, whether it is a cruel of pension rights, that has to be taken into account so that at the end of that period, when a woman would have chosen to do that and to stay away and to work part-time, she is not sanctioned as a result of that. I think a third one that will borrow, well, no, third one that has to do with the legal framework within which we operate. Quite often, women will work part-time, and in some places around the world, certainly, their rights are reduced because they are part-time. They have less leverage. They have less voices. That shouldn't be the case. Equally, it's often women who tend to do the gray work, to be on the gray market. I think that's a really big issue, which is a society issue, not a woman issue, but those that are the victims are generally the women. And then I will borrow from Madeleine Albright, whom we know well and like a lot. She finishes her first book, the one that she considers about these issues of women, and she says, there should be a special place in hell for women who do not support women. And I think that is still the case, that there are women who have had it hard, who have struggled, and who are not necessarily prepared to either share or support each other. And often, inside ourselves, we think a little bit dismissively about women, and we have to fight that little devil inside ourselves and reach out, give a hand, and help other women along the way. So it leads me to how the coronavirus, two years that we've gone through a year and a half, how has that improved the situation of women, or how has that worsened the situation of women? And if we look at the economic circumstances, we see that women have been at the front line of coronavirus fighting, and they've been generally employed in sectors that were particularly vulnerable to coronavirus and to recessions. And by that, I mean, many of the people we called the frontliners in Europe, who were providing cares, who were in hospitals, who were in special and intensive care unit, were women. 76% of them were women. And they were the most exposed to the virus at the time when we didn't have vaccination. Women were also overrepresented in essential jobs. If you look at cashers in supermarkets, in malls that had to stay open so that people could actually buy food, 82% of cashers at the cash desk were women. And 95% of workers who do the domestic work who do the house cleaning, 95% of them are women. So they were more exposed. They were in the vulnerable jobs. The service sector, which was the last one to recover, is also one that employs predominantly women. So they did not have the earlier benefit of the recovery as more men who were employed in the manufacturing sector, which picked up a lot earlier than services. They also took a bigger share of child care during lockdown. I mean, generally when the question was asked, okay, schools closed, after school services closed, who is going to look after the children? In most cases, it was the mother and not necessarily the father. So when we look at the extra and paid child care work that were required from parents, 173 hours were done by women and 59 additional hours were done by men. So I think it has clearly accentuated the differences that were there before, and we need to pay special attention to that. When we look at the unemployment numbers, we have the same issue. The first ones to lose their jobs were the women because either they were part-time or they were in low skills positions, or they were in the service sectors, particularly the tourism industry, where jobs went very fast. So that's all sort of pretty sad news. But I think we need to look at the good news as well, because of two reasons. One is the digital transformation that is affecting our societies might be a real upside for women if it's handled properly. And it can be slavery, but it can be liberation as well, and how we balance between the two is going to be critically important. At this point in time in Europe, we have a fork in the road of recovery, and we either go back to the sort of business as usual, things will be sorted out, markets will play it out, and we'll see how women end up. Or we have the other branch of the fork, and we decide that we have to also take that problem into account. And as under your leadership Ursula, there is so much investment dedicated throughout Europe to digital, because you required it. How can that be actually articulated with the necessity to focus on those that have been most exposed and were most vulnerable in the pandemic? And the floor is yours, because you are the one to deal with this. Thank you so much, Christine. First of all, yes, if we start with the effect the pandemic and the lockdowns had on patterns, you're absolutely right. We have to be very careful that there's not a backlash into the old patterns. And you've described the home office and the homeschooling combination, the enormous amount of hours women allocated to be the caregiver, to be there for their children, to be kind of a teacher at home, and how uneven it was and is distributed between men and women. These are old patterns. We know them. So there is a risk to slip back, to fall back into these old patterns. And therefore, it is of enormous importance that now in the recovery, we invest again, and more than ever in the opportunities for fathers and mothers to evenly distribute on both shoulders, caring for children and having a career. I always emphasize that, and this is a thought that is important to me, that over time, if we think about the society we want to live in, we want to live in a caring society, a society that cares for the young ones, but also a society that cares for the old ones. And this is only doable in a modern society. If we divide or if we distribute the burden or the wonderful opportunity, you may give it the accent you want to, of earning your income and caring for your loved ones. Because, and then we get men on board, it is not only about being fathers and, as you said, the millennials want to be fathers if the conditions are right. Rightly so. Every child also has a right to have a mother. Every child has a right to have a father. But if you think of the end of life, when it is about caring for the elderly, there are old people who have a son. And all of a sudden, if the infrastructure for a caring society is not there, this son is all of a sudden also confronted with an either or. I either have my job or I care for my old father or my old mother. And therefore, it is in our common interest to establish a society that enables good work. And I emphasize that this is important. We need it. So good schools, good daycare, caring facilities also for the elderly, good childcare. But that also allocates time and gives you spare time for your loved ones, be it your children or be it your old parents. Then you have care and career in a society that are highly valued. So now, let's look a bit more into the practical things. Us as politicians, what we have to do is make sure that the vision we have is implemented in concrete proposals. And now in the recovery phase, you know, perhaps that as in Europe, Janet, we have brought forward a huge recovery package. We call it Next Generation EU. In today's price is 800 billion euros for the next years to invest into our objectives. This is, of course, the European Green Deal. This is digitalization. But one of the objectives is also a gender equality. And with these plans that bring billions and billions to the member states, we set the requirement that they have really to put in these plans concrete proposals with milestones and targets. For example, for gender equality. I give you an example. We have by now received 23 plans. If you look at the childcare investment, it's 8 billion that will go in Europe to childcare. Germany will have 90,000 additional childcare places. Good for the parents. Or Portugal is attracting women in STEM education by offering financial support to students in STEM courses. So specifically for women, financial support, if you go into the science, the STEM, the technological education. Spain is supporting with these Next Generation EU money women entrepreneurs, also through skilling, but also through financial support. I very much like the French example, Christine, because they say if companies benefit from Next Generation EU funds, they will be required to publish an index on gender equality. So they have to show what are we doing on equal pay, distribution of promotions, salary increases, all the topics that we've been discussing here. And companies need to set internal targets for each of these indicators, which could lead to financial penalties if they do not meet them. So very concrete policies that support there isn't financial incentive, but you have to deliver on making sure that the gender equality in companies is improved. And this shows we have to think about the instruments that give young women the opportunities, the choices we were talking at the very beginning, that they can make the choices and thus have a broader opportunity to really develop all the capabilities they have and to live the life they want. Now, give me for the last minutes in this part, I want to look at the world outside, of course, the European Union too. And here, we know that the COVID pandemic is leading to the worst education crisis, I think, in modern history. If we look at the numbers, it's around 11 million girls that might be forced out of school. And we all know what that means if you drop out of school for your future. So here, we are all called upon to invest heavily with our external policies in better education for girls. There is this global partnership for education being set up. Here, the call is that we all together invest more. As a European Union, we've said that we will increase by one third our funding, so 100 million per year over a period of seven years. We have a common goal in the global partnership for education. That is that we want 40 million more girls in schools by 2026 to make sure that they catch up and that they have a real opportunity. And this part, I think, is also for us very important. And with that, having talked a bit about the European examples, Janet, may I throw the ball to you? Thank you Ursula, sure. So I completely agree. We see exactly the same things in the United States that you've described in Europe, a COVID pandemic that has had a disproportionate impact, very harsh impact on women. Nearly 4.2 million jobs were lost by women, well more than half of the total jobs lost in the United States due to the pandemic. Of course, they were disproportionately represented in the sectors that were most impacted, the surface sector of the economy, and of course they took the brunt of caregiving responsibilities. And I would say that in the United States, it's disproportionately minority women, black and Hispanic, low-wage women who have been harmed. One in four child care jobs in the U.S. economy no longer exist. They were mainly held by low-wage women and women of color. We've been very worried about scarring of women and of workers generally as a consequence of the pandemic. And in our relief efforts, we have really focused on trying to direct aid to women to minorities in a whole variety of different ways. And you mentioned fork in the road. For us too, this is a fork in the road. We see, we have a group that has been always vulnerable, always suffering from inequities. And in the United States, this ties in also with a long history of structural racism, but disproportionate representation in parts of the economy that have very weak benefits, a weak social safety net. And then this is the group that is most impacted in such an unfair way by the pandemic. And we realize too, we need to build back better. And this is a turning point for us. And President Biden has made it a priority to want to take some of the things that have been done during the pandemic to address the needs of women, particularly low-wage women and minorities, and to make those supports permanent in our economy. An example of something we're very focused on, we put into effect and payments will actually start going out next week, a child tax credit. We are giving families with children $3,000 a year for every child, $3,600 for every child under the age of six. And our internal revenue service that Treasury is responsible for, we've tried to figure out a way to send these payments out monthly so that this is a reliable support for families. And of course, there are so many in the United States women headed single parent families with children. This serves to reduce the child poverty rate in the United States by 50%. And in the plans that President Biden has proposed now, the American Families Plan to Congress, we want to make this permanent. In addition, paid leave, which we put into effect temporarily during the pandemic, that's something else we're proposing to make permanent. Early childhood education, something that's tremendously important for opportunities for children, but also a critical support for women in the workforce. And again, that's something that we want to make permanent and are proposing to do so. So focusing on what do we do to make jobs in the care sector of the economy better jobs. Disproportionate number of women and especially minority women have jobs of taking care of other people, elders in our society. And these are low paid jobs and very insecure with very weak benefits. And so we're looking to improve those jobs on a long run basis well. So I completely agree. This is a turning point, seeing the terrible impact of the pandemic on groups in our society that we're already suffering. It really focuses us on the necessity of changing things, not just in the short run, but in the long run. But you mentioned in your comments the rest of the world developing countries. The pandemic has had just an enormous effect, as you mentioned, on schooling for women, on women's employment throughout the developing world. And I think what this has focused us on and is certainly focusing me on is the need for global cooperation, for transatlantic cooperation. That's one of the reasons I'm here in Brussels is to strengthen our bonds. I think it's critically important that we all work together. I don't think any country can deal with these problems that face all of us alone. And we really need to work jointly to address the needs of low income countries that are especially suffering during this pandemic. But then as a global community, a larger set of issues, obviously the pandemic itself is focusing us on the fact that health challenges are global. None of us can recover unless we cooperate, make sure that vaccines are available all over the world. We've spent time in Venice at the G20 discussing the importance of improving our coordination in distributing vaccines and treatments and PPE and other things to speed global recovery. But then there are broader issues as well. Climate change, of course, is one of the most important things that we face as a global community. So on behalf of President Biden, the United States, we really look forward to an opportunity to work with you transatlantically and on a multilateral basis to strengthen our cooperation to deal with a whole range of problems that no country can deal with individually and that are critical to the future of the planet and our prosperity. So I'm pleased to be here and have an opportunity to discuss these matters with you. Christine, I know you share my view on global cooperation. Let me invite your comments on that topic. Yes, thank you, Jeanette. I do share your views on cooperation and I spend years of my life trying to improve that cooperation and I'm just delighted to see that you are one of those agents that are clearly pushing those matters and bringing it to the fore of the agenda of the international community so that it's wonderful to have you in the position you're in, however difficult it is because it is tough. You write that no country is an island and if it wasn't coming home to some, certainly COVID has brought it loud and clear. And while this is the dark side of it, that those viruses just travel at the speed of light sometimes. But I like to think of also the beauty of cooperation, globalization, movement of people and capital as something that has produced in a record time vaccines that we are now economists and financial experts relying on to make sure that jobs are created again, that recoveries and the way that women's invulnerable position return to the job market, restore their independence financially and can achieve their goal and accomplish their talent because that story is a global story of cooperation. It starts with three French Nobel Prize who actually discovered ARN messenger back in 1965. A Hungarian immigrant works for 40 years on that in a US lab because she was immigrating in the US and then is picked up by two Turkish imminent doctors who have immigrated second generation to Germany and they develop their research with financial support from German authorities. But then they sort of move further to the clinical stage linking up with a US company. And this when you look at it, it's the movement of people is the movement of ideas. It's the movement of capital. And some might argue and say, why didn't we keep it here? Or why wasn't was it not there? Never mind. It's the cooperation of all this is this brainpower and this intelligence that has actually produced in less than a year something that we are relying upon in order to get out of this pandemic chaos that we've gone through. You mentioned climate change. I want to say a word on that. But before I get there, I want to also celebrate the accomplishment of the last few days because to have seen the G7 first, the OECD countries, most of them. And now the G20 endorsing this tax agreement that is going to completely change the tax landscape and will actually increase revenues for states around the world in order to do what they have to do in a much more stable and fair way. I think it's monumental. It sounds like a terribly complex and obscure field. No, it is not. It's actually deliberately telling the corporates around the world you are creating value and you have to pay your fair share of tax in places where you are delivering value and generating activity, not in some funny, scheming, optimized way because you only want to reduce tax because paying revenue is actually the right way to achieve some of the goals that societies have. So I want to celebrate that. That's cooperation. That's international. It is indeed. It is fantastic. And it's something we have to do together. No one country can do it on their own. Absolutely. It's a marvel of cooperation. And it's a win-win because at the end of the day, all member states that are participating in this will actually gain out of it and societies at large will gain out of it. The other area where I think we're seeing significant change which will benefit men and women is in the area of climate change. And I think that the better understanding, the action to actually try to reduce the impact of climate change that is taking place is also going to require international cooperation. Absolutely. And it's an imperative that we all have. Some are in the driving seats and certainly you too, Ursula and Jeanette, are in that driving seat because you're going to encourage the setting of standards, the regulatory environment, the encouragement that you can give in a very targeted and very specific way. I also think that central bankers have their job cut out as well. We announced very clearly last week as part of our strategy review that climate change will be a factor in our monetary policy framework and in our monetary policy operations. And we wanted to be specific. That's what we tried to do with our timeline, with our action plan, with our deliverables, and we are going to actually do that job. And it's a job that will require cooperation where the commission will have an impulse and we're hopefully at large, whether it is through the IFRS, which sets the accounting standards at minimum and beyond because we want maybe to do more than just that and it should be constructed in such a way. We will actually hold hands together in order to defeat this climate change that would operate as a terrible, terrible tragedy on all men and women if we were not to do anything. May I pick up where Christine left? First of all, it's wonderful, Janet, to have our friends back. So that's, we missed you. And of course, there are a lot of memories of the American friends and the close cooperation and friendship we have with our American partners. And it's so good to have these like-minded friends back. You are close friends and we look forward to very close cooperation. Right. And that's so good, this feeling that with the big challenges of this world, and that's all about the huge challenges we have. And the biggest crisis is the climate crisis. We need to join forces. And with friends, it's easier to join forces because the challenge is so big. So let's focus on it. And indeed here, Christine, you have an incredibly crucial role to play there and you do it. You deliver. That's great to see. So what the climate crisis is concerned or the fight against climate change, indeed, if we look at the different places of the world, we see that our planet is starting to be on fire. If we see the global warming and we see the effects on extreme weather situation longer and more intense, we know that this is the beginning and we really have to do something. The good part in that story is that we know through innovation, investment, new technology, clean technologies, we can make a big difference. And here, I think this is one of the cornerstones of a common transatlantic global agenda, to really make sure that we align our policies, share experience and knowledge, move towards the simple fact that we know CO2 is destroying our climate. We cannot admit it anymore at the pace we did it. So let's put a price on CO2. That's the principle number one. The fascinating good news is while we know that the fossil fuel growth has absolutely reached its limit, there's another growth strategy you can use and that is moving towards a circular economy, an economy that gives more back to the planet than it takes from it. So there are ways to move forward, to modernize, to move towards a clean economy, a circular economy. And here, we know it is so important that we bring this innovation forward. Often at the beginning, breakthrough technologies are more costly at the beginning. So the market feasibility for these breakthrough technologies, that will be something where we have a duty to support and to find the mechanism for that on our way to climate neutrality. And my last point on that is that it is important we all set ourselves now very ambitious goals. That's good. We want other countries to join, but now is also the time to roll out the roadmap and the clear targets and milestones and goals we have on how we're going to reach those goals, those climate targets. I think this is one of the tasks also, if we look forward to Glasgow, that we have to tackle that. We go now from target setting to implementing the right policies because time is really of the essence. A second dimension where I'm very much looking forward for a very close cooperation with our American friends, dear Janet, is the whole topic of new technologies. And here, we know that there are fascinating new technologies mainly also in the digital field. The big question is who's controlling the technologies or are the technologies controlling us? And how do we shape them? Is it the market that decides what happens with your data? Is it the governments who decide what happens to your data? Or do we have a rulebook that makes sure that there's a human-centric approach that you decide as an individual what happens with your data? And here, I'm very, very glad that we have now the Trade and Technology Council between the United States and the European Union. There is an enormous responsibility, but a wonderful task ahead of us exactly to work in these fields. Well, this has been a truly fascinating conversation and an absolute joy to listen to. Thank you so much. As usual, before we wrap up, there is something I like to ask all our guests here on the podcast. If you had one hot tip regarding today's topics for our listeners, what would that be? President Lagarde, perhaps you'd like to start? You know, I would like to make two recommendations, actually, because I think books and films can be inspiring. So I would recommend a book that was written actually by a very close friend of mine who is a super smart lady. She's a dam, actually, and she's head of the London School of Economics. She just wrote a book called What We Owe Each Other, A New Social Contract. And I don't want her book to be not visible, not well read, not well shared because I think she has fantastic suggestions and she's a very, very intelligent and caring lady. Second is David Attenborough. Sir David, to me, was always fantastic to watch. But I think lately he has morphed into a real advocate, almost an activist, and he's dedicating the last years of his life to us understanding that we have to protect our planet. And his latest documentary called Breaking Boundaries is just mind-boggling. Final tips. When you're really tired, when you have so much to do, when it's exhausting and you have 20 minutes to spare while grabbing a sandwich super quickly because you don't have time to eat, watch Grace and Frankie. It's hilarious. Secretary Yellen, what would your hot tip be? Well, I'll give a must read. I think the most important research that I've seen on the history of women in the labor market and how it's evolved, how women's role has evolved. And what continues to hold women back is by Claudia Golden, who's a professor in the Economics Department at Harvard. And she wrote a very important book that has influenced me called The Gender Gap. But in just a few weeks, she is about to publish a new book. And I've had the pleasure of seeing an advanced copy and I want to recommend it. It's called Career and Family. And I think it's a must read. President von der Leyen, what would you tell our listeners? Yes, I don't have a must read or must watch, but I want to share two experiences with our listeners. The first one is a very recent one. Ten weeks ago, I was hugging my very first grandchild for the very first time. It's a girl, my granddaughter. And this is one of the moments that puts everything into perspective. And that reminds you of what is really important in life. And these are two things that stay with me. The fact that we're always young enough to believe in the world and we're always old enough to make a difference. And if we link that, for example, to our conversation and the European Green Deal 2030, where we have specific goals, this little girl will be nine years old. And 2050, when Europe wants to be climate neutral, I'm going to be older than 90 years if I'm still alive. My granddaughter will just be 29. So she's just starting the rush hour of life and it will make a difference how we act today, how she's going to be able to live there. And then a second tip for all young women. Never allow anybody to give you a bad conscience. Never ever. You are the best mother for your child and you are the best employee or the best leader for your company. Keep that in mind. Thank you so very much. Well, that brings us to the end of this episode. Check out the show notes for further reading on the topics we've discussed here today. You've been listening to the ECB podcast with Katie Ranger. If you like what you've heard, please subscribe and leave us a review. We'd also love to hear from you, so do share your feedback and ideas with us via social media. Until next time, thanks for listening.