 Welcome once again to the breakfast here on Plus TV Africa. The world was shocked yesterday with the death of anti-apathite hero. And of course, Agbishop of Cape Town is also the primate of the Anglican Church of South Africa. And at one time, the chairman of the Truth and Reconciliation Committee, Agbishop Desmond Impilo Tutu. Of course, the world leaders, including here in Nigeria and across the world, the president of Obama, also put out messages to his family and of course to commiserate with the South African government and the South African people after the death of this icon. It was called The Voice of Our Conscience. And that's what we're going to be talking about this morning with our international affairs expert, Pauli Jimé. But just before that, we have a quick biography of Agbishop Impilo Tutu, Desmond Impilo Tutu to share with you. And of course, also a quick interview that was done yesterday. We'll be back right after this. Reson Dertre for this commission is opening wounds, cleansing them so that they do not fester and saying we have dealt with our past as effectively as we could. We have not denied it. We have looked the beast in the eye. Agbishop Desmond Impilo Tutu, born in Kerkstop, Transvaal, on 7 October 1931 in South Africa, was a strong voice against apathy in South Africa. In the transition to democracy, Tutu was an influential figure promoting the concept of forgiveness and reconciliation. He was recognized as the moral conscience of South Africa as he frequently learned his voice to issues of justice and peace. After the passage of apathy, he banned the Education Act in 1953. Tutu resigned from teaching in protest at the diminished opportunities for Black South Africans. He continued to study concentrating on theology. In 1955, he married Nomalizo Lea Shenzane. They had four children together. And in 1961, he was ordained an Anglican priest. Tutu moved to England in 1962, where he studied at King's College, London, and gained a master's degree in theology. He also became a part-time curate in St. Albans and Golders Green. Five years after, he returned to South Africa and became increasingly involved in the anti-apathy movement. He was influenced among others by fellow Anglican bishop, Trevor Hardelster. Tutu's understanding of the Gospels and his Christian faith meant he felt compelled to take a stand and speak out against injustice. The Holy Spirit calmed the turmoil within. In 1976, there were increasing levels of protest by Black South Africans against apathy, especially in Soweto. In one of his speeches, Tutu said, far too often people think of themselves as just individuals separated from one another, whereas we are connected and what we do affects the whole world. When you do well, it spreads out. It is for the whole of humanity, according to him. In his position as a leading member of the clergy, Desmond Tutu used his influence to speak family and unequivocally against apathy, often comparing it to fiercest regimes. One of his favorite words in bringing people together was ubuntu, meaning I am because we are. People like all of us were shocked and I would like to express condolences to Mamalia and the children family. But I must say that, I mean, Archbishop Desmond Tutu has been a prophet amongst us. And he lived amongst us, stood for that truth, stood for justice here in South Africa and internationally. And he did it without fear, believing what he believed, that God is a God of justice. And I think in state of mourning, we should actually celebrate his life. And that's the color made here in South Africa. To say that, let's celebrate his life because he played an important role in our lives in getting rid of the apartheid system in South Africa and took risks. I mean, he used to stand in between bulldozers and victims of the apartheid system, which was forcefully removing them from their homes. He used to stand in between angry mobs who were angry about apartheid and wanted to kill people. He is the example of what God's justice is about. OK, well spoken of the late legend. So what are South Africans going to miss about him? Because when we hear him speak, he's not a selfish person. He's very, very selfless. So what are those things that South Africans will really miss about him? Well, you know, we will miss his love. We'll miss his laughter. You know, he was even at the worst moment. He would laugh, but we will miss also his solidarity with victims of society here in South Africa and internationally. I mean, he has taken on courses of justice internationally. But you know, fortunately, with modern technology, we can still listen to him. We can still listen to the receive the messages that he sent to us. And we can repeat what he has said. And nobody can say, I have forgotten and I don't know and from this morning that all these histories come up in a big way. And that, to me, will remain a permanent witness amongst us. So he's not gone. He's with us, like all of us were sure. Yes, of course, a quick conversation on the life and times of anti-apathite hero Desmond Impilo Tutu. This morning, we're speaking with our international affairs expert, Mr. Paul, Lady Meh. Morning to you. Thanks for joining us. And thank you for that truth. Same to you. And of course, good to see you this morning. It's not a very happy time, of course, across Africa and across the world also. It seems like the world has lost one of its loudest voices. And like I said earlier, he was popularly called the voice of our conscience. But quickly share your views on what exactly the death of Desmond Tutu means for, of course, South Africa and the rest of the world. So well, the best condolences to his immediate family South Africans, Africa, and then the world in general. Because here was a colossus of a man that touched not just where he came from, but across the world. And let me pick up from where the last speaker talked about that. Perhaps what we could do is to celebrate him. And the greatest tribute we can pay is to try to put into practice some of the legacies he left behind. And what are they? It is about justice. It's about peace. It's about non-violence. It is about humanity. Because that is what matters. And the fact that he lived a life at 90, I think he wouldn't be called a small boy. But he touched lives in many places, not just Africa. We have talked about Antioch, but also in places like Britain. When he visited, he talked about two nations there. But before Black Lives Matter, he mentioned that they had too many blacks in prison. And so he had that knack of speaking truth to power. When he went to Israel, he told them that the way they were treating the Palestinians was no good. And in the US recently, he talked about it. He told former president Trump that recognizing making Israel no Jerusalem, the capital of Israel was cutting the rich. And then what about our own continent? In Zimbabwe, even though he was a freedom fighter, he had scores to settle with President Bogabi when he became a dictator. Even Mandela that he supported, when Mandela was also president, he had issues with some of the policies that he had. And then back in Nigeria, he was sent from a military barrister for the release of people like NKO, who were in prison. And then they had also talked about Kesaro. We were, hence, after his execution, Mandela led the expulsion of Nigeria from the Commonwealth. So he was a man that didn't really, it was not, it was selfless. He was concerned about the downtrodden. He talked about, hence, it's called a moral compass. Even he also engaged in some self-deprecation. He talked to his church about the fixation about ordaining women, priests, or homosexuality. He said that there are more people, there are more issues of poverty that the church would deal with. Instead of getting into the issue of sexual orientation of people. So that is the man. And I think one pain that he would take with him, he learned that the commission that he had where he expressed so much emotion about the truth and reconciliation of that commission has never been implemented. The reason being that South Africans have a white minority opposite, the ANC opposite. And he also had some strong word for the ANC, telling them that the black empowerment that they were talking about, that black rich people now replace them, white South Africans in the control of the economy. So here we have a man who believed in justice, who actually coined South Africa, because of the poor, poor, the niche of inequalities, racial, and then the visions that are there. The hams were hard more, and the poor getting poorer. So, but I believe in Ubuntu. Yes, okay, but you are, I am because you are. Yeah. So I want to speak a little bit more about the anti-apathite struggle that he of course was one of those who championed it. You know, right after of course, apathite was kicked away. There still is some level of racial segregation in South Africa. And then of course the Truth and Reconciliation Committee that you mentioned also. Do you think that there are certain things that Desmond Tutu would also see as regrets, or failures with being able to achieve them to its fullest level if possible? I think he gave every endeavor his best. If anything, I wouldn't say it's failure, but uncompleted, unfinished business. I think that is what it is. Because he tried his best, he led a commission that brought out the brutality, you know, the horrific events that characterize the apartheid regime. But also not just atrocities committed by whites, but also by the blacks. Because he believed in non-violence. He said, you know, you can achieve a lot through negotiation, through talking. And the fact that at the end of the day, we are all human. And that God is no God of any particular group. Whether wife, whether Christians, he already said that Christians do not have the guarantee that they will go to heaven. So he was a people, pro-people. That is what it is and pro-humanity. And so he will see the fact that that report has not been and it remains a blight on those who are ruling South Africa today. You see some African countries copying that example, even though it has not been taken to its logical conclusion. But it tells a lot about the fact that after a conflict, after some horrendous atrocities, what you need to do is to bring reconciliation. You can never take that away. Whether you go ahead and do it, it's important to how much becomes another issue. But he has made his recommendation. He lived his life. And in fact, like the last speaker said, thank God for digital technology. We can still go back to what he said, some of those thoughts that he had. And that is the fact that he's still around with us. And how can we mourn him? How can we pay tribute to him? Is to draw from the legacy, the rich legacy that he has left the world. The legacy of peace, the legacy of humanity, the legacy of non-violence, the legacy of equality, the legacy of respect for human rights, the legacy of humility, no matter where you are. Because here was a man very humble, unassuming, and then down to earth. And so he lived his world. We had to celebrate him instead of mourning. And how do we do that by making sure that we emulate some of those principles and those ideals that he lived for? Okay. Even after post-appertide, you also want to agree with me that Desmond Tutu was very critical of the ANC. And especially when he knew that South Africa was misrepresented. And as high-profile as he was, there were times where even a police officer had to ask him to shut up because he was not advised Jesus during that council visit to Lama. And so what would you consider Desmond Tutu's legacy on the impact on growing movement across holding government accountable? What would you consider as his legacy or I mean the impact of his legacy on growing movement across the entire world, especially in Africa, in holding governments accountable? Well, difficult, but one thing was his boldness, his courage. You know, you talked about being tear gas, being arrested, being assaulted or insulted, but he never give up. We must not give up. We have to come out, you know, how many people can they kill? He was not afraid to die, he said. And that is the issue. That this idea of people, you know, tickling out of hiding behind their fingers when horrendous things are happening, when our leaders are behaving as if they do not owe anybody any responsibility or accountability. It must stop, but how do we stop it? It has to follow Tutu's example. Coming on the street, he wasn't afraid to lead a protest, you know, against anti-people policies. And there are so many of them everywhere in Africa in the world today. And so the ones who do well to copy him to emulate him, don't be afraid, come out. You can never die twice, you know. And what you do lives after you. It is not about you, it's about how you touch people, about what you, the impression you left, the legacies you left. And that is what we are talking about. That it's not about the number of houses he owned, the acquisitions. He had the opportunity to do all that, but he was a street fellow. He was a man who, you know, everybody could, you know, relate to it. He was a man that spoke truth to power and was not afraid. I think that is the greatest thing. The courage to tell our leaders when they are wrong, not to be Hallelujah people or, you know, everybody preach, even when we know people are suffering, people are dying. But yet, people, the ones that are buried in their heads, those who you speak are dying. What are they afraid of? Let them emulate Desmond Tutu, the arch, and call him. Talking about emulating Desmond Tutu, let's bring it down here to Nigeria, you know, and get your views on persons that may be, you know, doing pretty much the same. Do you think that we still have persons who have taken, you know, from the life of Desmond Tutu and been able to stand in the face of opposition and speak truth to power and also been able to stand and promote unity at all times? If you remember, you know, something you mentioned also, you know, the fact that he didn't think that, you know, criticizing the sexual orientation of the next person was the most important thing in Africa. His daughter got married to a woman, if you also are aware of that, and he didn't have any challenges with it, even as an Anglican, you know, archbishop. So in Nigeria, do you think that we have that quality of leadership, you know, political, traditional and religious leadership? Are there people that you can point to that are, you know, pretty much doing the same thing? Well, you have this knack for bringing the ball to the center, you know, the penalty area. Very soon now you'll be scoring the penalty. Well, the point is that you're asking me to ruffle some feathers, but there is nothing like the truth. You can't hide away from it. The people like the Ghanifawa image, they have now become an endangered species in our country, which is unfortunate. And because things are happening, that ordinarily stood up, let people come out and then leave them some, you remember, they ran some cooties, you know, the Beko and others, remember Fela, remember, you know, Roxie and me, Williams and all of them. Nigerians had never been short of all those kind of people, but what has happened is that I think we have gotten used to, politics has spoiled so many things. Politics has damaged a lot of things and then the commercialization of politics. Value systems have now gone. People, parents are now showing their children that they can steal government money and then put them somewhere. And then the child, the children, what do they do? They now go and take from there and then you are no longer, what are you passing? What moral lessons are you teaching those people? So I will tell you that perhaps those kind of people, they are in suspended animation. I hope that at one point they will rise again because without them, without the conscience of society, like the Ghani family means of this world, the society will rot. It will become a place of, you know, the stronger. You know, when you are strong, that is when you have the might. The society for the might. Would you give any kudos to the likes of, would you give any kudos to the likes of Bishop Matthew Cooker? Well, yes, I think in Cooker, but the point again, my brother, is that when you now come up to criticize, they label you an enemy and they come after you. I think that is the fear that people now have, that they are no longer coming out. But I should raise that fear because life is about what's to have left behind. It's not about your positions or what, you know, the work you have. It is about how many people have you touched. By speaking up, by condemning things that are wrong, you are telling people who are in power to change. But if you don't have those people who will provide your alternative views, what you are seeing is that there will be those who think that their business as usual, they can continue to oppress and suppress and treat everybody, trample on people's rights and think that they can get away with it. But that is not sustainable. I'm hoping that some people will also emulator the Cookers, the Ghanifah, you mean, the Bear Claws, the Ransom, Qumada Fuliwai was a great fighter and so on as we have them. They are there, but let them, we must not allow them to die. We must not allow them to become extinct. We must not allow them to become history. Let us revive. Let us come alive with the vibrant Nigerian that we know. Nigerians that cannot keep quiet. Nigerians that can stand up to military dictatorship. What has happened to us? Things are happening today that if they happen before, when people will be on the streets to fight, they are not there to fight war, but for human rights, for the protection of the common people. The common people are suffering. They don't have people who are speaking out for them. How long can this continue? I hope and I pray that we rediscover ourselves. Just before we let you go in no time, let's also look at one of the things that Desmond Tutu was great about. I mean, the fact that he, I'm sure you've mentioned it in the course of this discourse, the fact that he played a major role in unifying ethnic groups in South Africa, and that's why he's popularly associated with that, you know, Tim Rainbow Nation. Although he later confessed that he didn't actually lack out, he didn't like the way things actually panned out eventually. But my concern is for us back in Nigeria, major concern is the fact that multiple ethnic groups, what are the dangers of that? And how can we manage? That was one of the conversations we had this morning with my colleague when we saw that yesterday, some Christians, I mean, some Muslims actually went to celebrate with Christians. So how can we manage all of this, you know, multi-ethnic groups in one country? How do we manage that? Because it's a major problem for us here in Nigeria. You heard about the term unity in diversity. And that is what the good Lord that brought every Nigerian where we are now. We remember we didn't have any choice about where the family we came from or the country we came from. So it is left for us, God has given us that free will to be able to manage it. You know, I should, we should see our diversity as an opportunity. You know, to get together is an advantage. It shouldn't be, what is it called, disadvantage. Because if God wanted us to come from any other place, He would have done so. Let us make the best that we can. If He gave you oranges, try to bring oranges. God gave you whatever it is, try to utilize it. It is about how you manage what God has given you and to be able to make the best out of it. We shouldn't be complaining about the fact that we have so many ethnic groups. And who are we? Did we create ourselves? And what right do we have to question other people? Why they're existing? Why don't we consider that Ubuntu? That I am because you are. Without you, I am nothing. But with you, I am everything. I am complete, complete mentality. Let us complete each other. It's like a marriage. A husband and a wife. The wife is incomplete. The husband is incomplete. But when they come together, they become one flesh. That is what the holy book tells us. Let us think about that, not under divide. Let us not concentrate on things that divide us. Religion or ethnicity or whatever. Let us use those to become humanity. Humanity is one. There is one God. No matter your denomination. I haven't seen any religions that talk about different God. It's the same God. So why can't we agree? But also it is about human freedom, which will not be surprised about it. But let us manage it. Let us be able to make, you see that as an opportunity to contribute. The contributions we make is about unity. It's about harmony. It's about living together. It's about coexistence. And utilizing the strength that each and every one of us has. Don't concentrate on the witnesses. Don't look at the fact that we are incomplete because we are as human beings. Otherwise, the saints are not, you don't have living saints anymore. The saints are somewhere in heaven. We are human beings. We have our witnesses and shortcomings and imperfections. But that should not stop us from working together. As you saw those who are living in Nigeria, together we can do more. Each person can bring out the best in themselves. But when we are working inside us, when we begin to do things individually, it does not take us very far. Let us unite as a nation, as a country, and as a world. Absolutely. We have a tribute from the South African president, Cyril Ramaphosa, that we're going to share just before we say quick goodbyes. So just quickly enjoy this. In this season of cheer and goodwill, at a time when many people are celebrated with family and friends, we've lost one of the most illustrious, courageous, and beloved amongst us. Archbishop Desmond Tutu was one of our nation's finest patriots. He was a man of unwavering courage. Of principled conviction. And whose life was spent in the service of others. He in many ways embodied the essence of our humanity. Knowing he had been ill for some time now does very little to lessen the blow that has been dealt to South Africa this very sad day. And that's it from the South African president, Cyril Ramaphosa, is not the only one. World leaders have, of course, shared similar messages on the death of Archbishop Desmond in Pilu Tutu. Thank you very much, Mr. Paul Ijime. Always interesting speaking with you and hearing your perspective on these topics. We look forward to seeing you again. Thank you for having me. And God bless you all. All right. Our next conversation is here in Nigeria, a couple of days ago. The federal government, of course, made an announcement that in the spirit of Christmas there was going to be free train rides across the country. But that didn't seem to go as planned. And that's what we're talking about next with the President General National Union of Rail Transport Workers, innocent at Gigi, who's gonna be sharing with us why it seems like tickets were still sold at even higher prices over the weekend. We'll be back.