 Harold, you shouldn't be running from your lawyer, it's bad form, and you know what I want to talk about? In a minute Judge Powell's gonna call us down. He's gonna want to know if we're ready for trial. We are. We are not, and you know why not. Rule one, I get paid, or I don't work. Don't worry, I got your money. Exactly, you got it. I don't. It's coming. Talk to my boys. Listen Harold, I look on the list of people I trust. You're not on it. That's Matthew McConaughey from The Lincoln Lawyer, schooling his client on how the legal system really works. It's a topic that factors into this interview I have coming up with attorney and investigative journalist William Ramsey quite prominently, especially when it comes to the case. We're going to talk about one of them, the West Memphis Three, and how it generated this ridiculous meme about satanic panic, because as you'll hear, no matter what you feel about the legal proceeding surrounding Damien Eccles and these crimes, there really should be no doubt that this is an individual that was deeply, deeply involved in satanic occult practices. And I say that of course, because you've listened to the show with satanic being in quotes, because we can't pigeonhole all this evil and hang it on one guy. Here's a clip from the upcoming interview with William Ramsey. But he looks so innocent and harmless, but that's exactly the point I wanted to put on about the deception. He's caught in an outrageous lie there, right? Right, yeah. I mean, they caught him in a lie that he was writing like a secret script. I mean, the allegation is that he was obsessed with the occult, right? But they denied all that. But while he was in jail, what's he doing? He's writing this secret script that has Jason Baldwin's name and Alistair Crowley. And then he gets out. What's he do? He's writing books about magic with a K. In making all these very different interviews, he's quoting, he's talking about the Moonlight, he's talking about rituals, he's tweeting about it. I mean, it's just incredible that people can actually be be let on to think that that's not involved in this case. This skeptical where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host Alex Cares. And today, we welcome William Ramsey to skeptical. William is an attorney, researcher, author, filmmaker, and creator of William Ramsey investigates, which is really quite an amazing, impressive body of investigative journalism and interviews. I've listened to so many of them. I think I first came across William on the Operman Report. And he's done a ton on there. But it's just an incredible body of work. And it's really, really relevant to the stuff that I want to talk about. And that's why I reached out to William, and it was nice enough to kind of come on and talk about some of this stuff. It's such a great fit for some of the stuff I've been looking into. Hey, some of the books we should mention, I pulled them up, Abomination, Devil Warship and Deception in the West Memphis Three. You guys have heard me mention West Memphis Three. And sometimes I say it like inside baseball, and I know there's a lot of people that don't totally get that. I mean, they get it kind of on a placeholder meme level, but William's really going to walk us through that because he's done some amazing research on that. And then there's Children of the Beast, Alistair Crowley's Shadow over Humanity. Really interesting book. And also I should mention a Vimeo movie that you can get. We'll show that in just a minute. And then finally, Prophet of Evil, Alistair Crowley, 9-11, and the New World Order. So William, just pretty amazing stuff there. It's great to have you on. Thanks so much for joining me. Great. Thank you for having me. Glad to be here. So I think right off the bat, a lot of people are super intrigued, hooked into this attorney researcher writing books on Crowley and West Memphis Three. And that's your traditional kind of true crime stuff. I mean, that's not, that's not at all your thing. So tell us a little bit about how you came to do what you do, William Ramsey investigates. Well, I was always kind of a person who was willing to research things that were not covered by the corporate media. I went to law school in DC and worked there from 95 to 98 and saw some very remarkable things. I briefly worked on the, what they call the suicide events foster, which was really the murder offense foster. He was murdered and dumped in a park for Marcy Park. Okay, we can't just we can't just leave that hanging for people who don't know. Quick, quick sketch of that case what it's how significant it is what it's about and why it's not a suicide. Right. So he was a lifelong friend. Actually, I think he lived in the same town as Bill Clinton. He was a lawyer. He graduated. His name was Vince Foster graduated first in his class at Villanova, which is a challenging law school. So it's very significant accomplishment. And he worked in the White House. He was, I think the chief counsel or a council in the White House. And I mean, he was tight linked into those guys. He was especially Hillary, right? I mean, a lot of other things, maybe, but really, yeah, the Rose Law firm things going back to Arkansas. And there was all kinds of shenanigans and criminality that were happening in Arkansas. Arkansas. There's a massive drug laundering, running and laundering operation that was using men at Arkansas, which was a kind of a airport that was in the mill and or is a trans shipping point for not millions, but billions of dollars worth of cocaine, and all that money had to be washed. And, you know, there's you can get there's all kinds of investigations of people who talked about that aspect of how the Clintons came up in power. But he was Vince Foster was found in the Fort Marcy Park. It's called Fort Marcy because it's an old Civil War fort that was made out of arms, really large pieces of the Civil War soldiers, the Union soldiers cut down tall trees and made this fort there that protected the Potomac and Washington DC during the Civil War in 1860s. And it's still a remnant and it became kind of a became kind of a thoroughfare. And it was, I mean, it has kind of a sketchy background, but he was found there in a bur on a berm under unusual circumstances. He left for lunch. I can't remember the dates now. I believe it was 1994. Clinton came to the White House in 1992, and sort of two terms. But he was found there and it was immediately called a suicide. And it was super suspicious. Yeah, I was there. Yeah, we won't go into it too far. But I'd like to know you're involved. But wasn't it crazy? Like, you know, burn marks, you know, gun on the left side of the head, right? He was left handed. Right. The gun was in the hand, which is almost never happens in a suicide because your involuntary shock goes through your body. So it was looked like somebody who watched a Hollywood movie would stage something. And also the fact that he was lying down on a berm. So what he wouldn't have done to do that was to actually decide to walk all the way deep into this park, and then lie down with his back on a berm, and then perform the act, hold on to the gun, which nobody knew he owned, and then cover himself in rug fibers. And then the blood pattern would magically drift away. That was non gravitational. There's just so it was just off the charts. And there was all kinds of covered up. They were ripped up suicide notes that were found in his briefcase that were covered. I mean, it was really dark and very dirty. And so that was your interest. How did you get connected? And what did you do? Did you want to so investigations or anything? Well, yeah, well, I was a was an intern for the lawyer for Patrick Nolton, who was one of the chief witnesses. So Patrick Nolton. I mean, this goes back 25 years. Pat, it's unbelievable. But I the guy's name was John Clark. And he's still a lawyer in DC. And I just went to work for him. And what I did for him was compile this evidence file that was different than what was in the Star Report. And it was Kenneth star and the chief aid for Kenneth star was Brent Kavanaugh, right? He was now the Supreme Court Justice. So most of the Star Report was actually written by Kavanaugh. And if you ever read through the Star Report and read through the footnotes, which I suggest you do, you should read the footnotes before you actually read the main text. Kavanaugh didn't pull any punches. There were all kinds of stories about what what Bill Clinton was really up to. How many girlfriends he had and stuff like that. Anyway, so I worked for Clark. And I actually sat down with Nolton and they're still around. They're still giving interviews. And Nolton was the first witness at the park who saw something suspicious. The FBI tried to change his or manipulate his story. After Vince Foster died. It's not really that funny. But after Vince Foster died, there was a new FBI director the next day. So the FBI director got switched out. And yeah, so what Clark did is created something that was an it actually is pretty fascinating because he successfully had that addendum attached to the Star Report by the District Court of DC. It's a three person court. They actually just ruled on the Flynn case. They're familiar with that. That's three person court. The writ of mandamus was accepted by them. And they're supposed they were overturned in the lower court with this corrupt judge, in my opinion, by the name of Sullivan who handled the Flynn case and the atrocity he just shouldn't even be on the bench. But so that addendum, the Clark addendum or the Nolton addendum to the Star Report is available and was put on there by this three person judge. You know, there's all kinds of facts that that Star didn't seem to want to think. So the gripe against Kavanaugh, with the Clintons is personal and goes back to that it goes back to the mid 90s. A lot of people don't know that. So a lot of this kind of specious, you know, he laughed at me while he was sexually assaulting me. There's a there's a motivation for all of that stuff that went down with Kavanaugh. So that was a long aside. But that was really how I kind of figured that there are stories, their narratives, and then there's the real story. And the politicization of reality is unfortunately, horrible situation to endure for all Americans because you're still going through it right now. And that was one of the things that happened in the whole Vince Foster fiasco along with so much other criminality. Anyway, John Clark had me take that addendum. I'm so dumb. I was so naive. I used to I walked around and hand delivered it to every member of Congress, both in the in the senator and House of Representative sites. So I was just handing this thing out saying, Hey, and I remember handing it to Arlen specter's office and all these other places. So I was handing it out. And that started a very interesting, interesting events of my life. But that was really how how I was willing to kind of addressing. So that was really the big start. I was always a researcher. I was always reading things. And I remember at the time, I was reading Michael Rivera, who does what really happened calm, who is probably for me, one of the more important alternative analysts or independent voices out there. But he had a website called Rancho run a mucka, which is for that's how far back I go and all that stuff. So that's really the start. So then, you know, I started researching parapolitics. Let me ask you this, because, you know, I've noticed that and I know this for myself. But there's this stripping away of the layers of the onion that I think a lot of us go through, you know, so you start, I can only imagine such a great story. I mean, you're an intern, you're so impressionable, like you say, you're laughing at yourself for being naive, you know, and we can all relate to starting a career and just doing what they say and kind of following the numbers 100%. What was it like, though, as you got I mean, the stuff you're doing right now is so so far out there. I imagine that yourself back then couldn't even imagine you getting to where you're at now with this stuff in terms of being far out there, I can relate to that my for myself, you know, I was always like, I would have laughed at this stuff 10 years ago. And now it's like so real. I think so I was, you know, I was like always listening to people talking about JFK. So that was probably my thing. And I always thought they were kind of kooky. And like, oh, this this thing. But now I think they were all right. And I didn't understand the kind of secret society element, the elite mechanisms of control through the media. So I had to learn really a lot of that stuff firsthand. And yeah, so I mean, I was super naive, I was I believed everything in my books, I followed the path of high school, college, you know, these are the state tiers of success. And, you know, I saw a whole different story. It's pretty amazing to because when I was in DC, I, I have very close friends who worked in these law firms. And I actually like the attorney for Jeffrey Epstein before he was murdered. Like, I used to go over to their law offices on Fridays for free beer. And I see all these guys read wine garden. So I saw I mean, I just saw a lot of stuff percent. I know people who worked at the Plato could cherish who was it was Lewinsky's attorney. So I used to go to Plato could cherish his office. I because all my friends, we were all interns, you know, so we were all just kind of in the same kind of tier of reality at that time. So anyway, that's why like I doubted Epstein died committed suicide too. But these things do happen. These things really do happen. And there's a lot and I never really kind of considered the occult, which, you know, is really something that I really started out with like nobody really wanted to talk about occult ideas influencing political events or the culture, at least at my time, you know, a lot of people would kind of dismiss you or, you know, your I've already been called a conspiracy theory theorist, but my books, I really tried to very rigorously cite them and try to maintain a higher academic standard. But Well, I think that's what comes through. And I think that's what kind of intrigues people is you have that kind of lawyer sensibility. And as you give more of the background, you can understand, you know, I think a lot of people don't even understand the different jobs that attorneys do. And, you know, just you're kind of giving us an insight into how you think. And I think some of that is from your legal training. Now, tell me more, though, about the occult thing, because you know, one of the things I wanted to I feel like is kind of hanging in the shadows here, because when I originally contacted you, I told you this project I'm working on, and it's why evil matters. And it's really this idea that it's kind of like the, you know, as I described in this show, you know, kind of alternative science or frontier science and frontier spirituality. And by that, I mean, you know, I think there's a lot of things that are happening in science that is pointing towards this larger, more expansive view of consciousness, easy one to point to is near death experience, you know, or reincarnation, either one solid science you can point to, I think, you know, 200 peer reviewed papers, at least in near death experience. And the work that's done been done in reincarnation, particularly at the University of Virginia is just stellar work that no one challenges that. And it's been my position, not really positioned just what I've observed over the last 10 years that I've done that is that has shifted the dialogue from, you know, we're going to talk about culture a lot, I think, because when you talk about West Memphis three, that's what I love about that case, it pops us right in the middle of this. And it starts splitting up some of these things like the the occulted satanic culture and how there's this wink and nod and do what they'll wilt and I can lie, cheat, steal, do whatever I have to, I can deceive you because that's part of it, man, you know, but then at the same time that we never talk about, is there is this twin part of it that just isn't exposed. And that is the atheistic, neurobiological robot and meaningless universe part of science. So you go to neuroscience, and it's still I mean, I repeat this every freaking show, but I can't help it. They don't believe that you have not only free will, they don't believe that you have experience, they don't believe that consciousness is real. And when I say that, they mean that consciousness is purely an illusion, it's a byproduct of the brain. And when you get stuck in that materialistic paradigm, and science is built on that psychology is built on that neuroscience, and you know all this, just repeating it, you can't even begin to process satanic ritual abuse. However, you're going to pull that apart. You would say, what I've heard religious scholars tell me on this show, it doesn't matter if it's true, it only matters what they believe. And I'm like, Well, no, you got that completely backwards. The first thing that matters is, is there this extended realm of consciousness? And are they somehow connecting with some benevolent force in that realm? You may not you may dismiss that. But at least you got to look at the evidence for that. And before you dismiss it and say, Well, that can't possibly be true. But the funny thing about our culture is we have this dual thing going on, we're both are operating where there's this, you know, Johnny Depp, Duncan Trussell Wink in a nod, you know, of course, it's all happening, you know, in this extended realm. And then you got this other side of Neil deGrasse Tyson, you know, of course consciousness is an illusion. And then here's the shadow part that I just got to get out there because I don't want it to be like hanging is you have the the religious part and the Christian part. And that I think when we do an interview like this, and I talked to you, and that's why I'd rather get it out up front. There's going to be a lot of people who are going to watch the movie, read the book, and they're going to be Oh, okay, I get it. This guy has a Christian agenda, and he's going to start preaching to me and telling me his narrowly defined understanding of how I need to relate to God, how I need to relate to that ultimate thing that's most important in everyone's life is their, their soul, you know, and what that soul means to them. So throwing a lot on the table there, but I'm impressed because I think you covered the kind of little the, you know, in a general sense, the groups that are influencing the culture. You've got the kind of occultist, you've got the materialist scientists, like Nick grass Tyson or Steven Pinker or Krause or some of these other guys or the Darwinists. And then, you know, you can put me right in that Christian camp. I'm comfortable with that. I don't really think that I'm I'm promoting a real specific kind of sectarian agenda within Christianity, but I definitely am a Christian 100%. Okay, so let's just touch on that for just a second. Before we go there, though, I did say, I want to I want to visit your Vimeo channel and show people some of the videos on there. And I want you to talk about that. And then we're going to talk about a couple of interviews I've done. One with opperman, who I think has a fantastic show, man. It's such a go to show. He's just got to get rid of those trashy commercials. The only way I can listen to it is with my little player, my hand, my thumb right there. Let's skip. Okay, now come on in. Give me something good. But I want to talk about opperman. And then I also want to talk about Russ Dizdar, you know, Russ. Sure. Yeah, we go back. So two guys, two guys I've interviewed. And I, because I want to get that Christian thing handled. And then I want to dive into Damien Eccles, because I think that'll get us right back to all these things we're going. I want you to tell people a little bit about some of the work that you've done on Vimeo, because you've taken the books that I showed, and you've done some really cool videos. And some of them have, you know, a lot of slideshow kind of stuff, but you have some great video in there. You have a really good voice for this stuff. You make it work. And you can listen, you can watch here if you're watching, but some of the stuff, you know, Johnny Depp and Eccles, and then you got stuff on the Process Church. So tell us a little bit about what's going on on Vimeo. And then I have another one that I watched last night, Children of the Beast, a video you did on Alistair Crowley. So tell folks a little bit about how these movies came to happen and, you know, how you feel about them. Well, they were kind of outgrowth for my books. So I've done, other than the Smiley Face Killers, which is about this, I think it's one of the most important true crime stories that hasn't really been told nationally, which is the abduction and disappearance of young men for the last 25 years, not only in the US, but all over the world. But the other ones, Children of the Beast was an outgrowth of my book. And I really just wanted to kind of make a more visual approach to that so that people could see that. Because a lot of the books, if you put too much in too many images in there, it distracts from the narrative. But if you kind of put it into a documentary format, I think people also can learn and see things visually much better, obviously, in the documentary. So Children of the Beast, Alistair, Prophet of Evil, Alistair Crowley, 9-11 in the New World Order, is another documentary. And then a Colt Hollywood volume two is out there. So I've got five full length documentaries. My Children of the Beast documentary is beyond full length. It's three and a half hours of things of events that people say aren't happening, which is men disappearing, found in water, a judge to accidental death over and over again, hundreds of times. But so that's how those really came about. And that's really so the like Children of the Beast was really an outgrowth of my research into Crowley, which was an outgrowth of my research into 9-11, which was just a general outgrowth of my interest in politics or occult politics, maybe. I like all those things. That's how that's how my interest in the smiley face killers came about is because I kept seeing this symbol in my research into Crowley. And then it led me to think, Okay, well, what are the smiley face killers? Is this an urban myth? And then I started studying it. And then I started seeing people or young men disappear and end up in water. The first one I studied was a guy by the name of Joey Lebutes out of Columbus, Ohio. And then I just was watching it. And my chief researcher, Jim Smith, has really been on the story. I think he's the best researcher out there on the subject. They're multiple ones. Gilbertson and Gannon from where the original kind of inquirers into the study. They wrote a book called Case Studies of Forensic Drowning. The interesting thing to me that I was totally unaware of is that you connect the smiley face killer thing that a lot of people have kind of heard about and don't know kind of what to do with it. And you've connected it to some of these same strange occult signaling, satanic signaling that's going on. And it is funny because ever since you mentioned it, I start seeing that smiley face in art and t-shirts in all the right slash wrong places. And I like how you're very careful. Again, you have this kind of investigator sensibility, just the facts, ma'am, in terms of you build your case slowly. You don't jump to a lot of conclusions. And even when we're going to talk about Crowley and talk about the West Memphis Three, you know, you're very careful to build your case, counselor. So let me just touch on the Christian thing, because here's, I think, the catch. And then I want to let it go. But there is this sense among a lot of people that if someone is Christian, that they are, they're so agenda-driven, and I'm guilty of accusing Christians of this too, because I think Christians do not accept their culpability in some of this stuff. And culpability in the sense that just how the average person processes this. And so really in this day with the Catholic Church outed as systematic sexual abuse from the highest level directed from the Pope, you're going to tell me that this folds right into, you know, Jesus on the cross, Son of God, screw you. And further, I mean, what Crowley is saying, and this is what, this is especially the reason I think we need to pull the Christian part about it, is that one way to read the Crowley narrative, the Crowley biography, and I think it's totally the wrong way, but it's the way they keep doing it is. He was rebelling against it just incredibly overbearing Christian father, who really was kind of a kooky, anyone would say, you know, it's taking the Christian thing way to this kooky extreme, no birthday parties, no presents, no Christmas, you know, all this cultish kind of stuff, and that of course, you know, then we can pack it back into the psychology, you know, oh, you know, and then we never have to deal with the real stuff that's going on. And I would maintain, and then I'm going to let you respond to it, maybe I'll play a couple of clips from Ed and Russ Dizdar, and then we'll move on, but I'd say the same kind of thing with the rest, what West Memphis 3, when you break that down, it's gonna, if people haven't heard your stuff before, it's going to be stunning because you stack the evidence and it's just overwhelming, but people are still going to process it as, oh man, satanic, panic, those damn Christians are at it again, they can't, you know, da, da, da. So in general, go ahead and respond. I think that's fair, I mean I'm glad, I'm glad that you brought up the Catholic Church because that's the exemplar that antagonists of what they believe Christianity, even in Crowley too, who's, he was part of the exclusive brethren by Darby, who many argue isn't even an authentic Christian, so he's definitely within this wide broad tent of what's defined as Christianity, but that's a very generalist kind of way to put it, I don't think Darby was, I mean he was a dispensationalist, there are all kinds of problems with his theology, I mean some people have written stuff and a lot, some of these Christians are very Christian leaders in different sects are very comfortable with the occult, supposedly like Darby, I need to research that more, but also Joseph Smith, the guy who started the Watchtower, the Jehovah's Witnesses, there's all kinds of problems, so it's you got, I think that you, and I think that this actually happens often is like you can look at the Gospel as a kind of caricature and then say you're just going to throw that agenda on people, I know what happens and that's fine, I don't even describe myself as a as a kind of sectarian Christian, I'm really just a Bible believing Christian, so I think that the real basis of any proper definition of that faith would be to see what's in the Gospels and what is in Paul's writings, and that should be the basis, not the Church, the Catholic Church is hyper corrupt, I mean the kind of things that have gone in there and the doctrines that are there, and even Crowley himself, it's interesting you bring Crowley up, he actually favored Catholicism, he actually said that the real enemy were the Protestants and the Jews, so he had this kind of tolerance for it and even some of his religion that he adopted, he took from Orthodox Christianity, so his whole Gnostic masses from Orthodox Church and he absorbed a lot of Christian teachings and twisted it, but yeah, you're right, so Darby himself, so I think that these critiques are common, they're fair, but I think that they can be addressed, and that's fine, you can look at me, you can look at me through whatever lens you want, but if you want to look at the facts that I've written about in those books, they're all fairly long, they're all footnoted, they're almost none of my subjective opinions, they're really just reference points, they're properly referenced in my opinion, and then you can take it as what you want to believe. See now, right there, we're cool. But we're getting into epistemology, right, like why do you believe what you believe? Exactly, and to that end, you know, I pulled up the the interview that I did with Ed and, you know, I just rattled his his his chain, but I'm glad I did, I mean, I don't mind pushing people in that way, but what Ed said that really kind of set me off and I pushed down, and then he got really pissed off, is he's like, why do you care what I believe? Why do you care what I believe? And it's like, you don't get it Ed, that is the whole thing, you're entering this realm, you're entering this battlefield, yes, I care what you believe, just like when I had Hugh Urban on, Dr. Hugh Urban from Ohio State University telling me about his book on Scientology and how it didn't matter that Crowley and Jack Parsons were performing a ritual in the desert to bring forth Antichrist through the Whore of Babylon, and he said, hey, it doesn't matter if there's any reality to it, it just matters, you know, what they believe. That is, if Christians don't understand that it matters what they believe, and they better be ready to defend what they believe, or as you do separate that and say, I would like to keep my personal beliefs, my relationship with God, out of this, and instead look at my hundred pages of footnotes, look at all my documents, look at all that, and just take that on its own merit, which is, you know, again I'm not, I don't care about Ed's, like I love his show and stuff, it's just that lust thing. I had Russ Dizzier on, fantastic, tremendous amount of information, because Russ got what I was saying, and right from the beginning he was like, no, Alex, you want me to approach this with just giving you the facts for satanic ritual abuse, and I'm going to tell you about the victims, I'm going to tell you about what we find when we go to these sites, and what we observe in terms of the, you know, inverted pentagram, the language, all this stuff, and let that kind of tell the story, and that's what I like. I mean we're all biased, we all have our own outlook, I mean I can't detach that from my books, my personality, and the way I believe about things, so I think people requiring total objectivity is unattainable, so people like always say, oh you're biased, well everybody's biased, age, race, education, gender, politics, so I think that that's fair, and really I think when you look at, like I listen to the left and right, I don't really mind, as long as they're really being honest, that's really what I want, they're being honest with the facts, and that's really what I tried to have is an integrity towards the reader or listener of my videos, like this is just what they thought, I don't do a lot of editorializing, I really, I mean unlike corporate media or CNN or MSNBC and all this trash that shouldn't exist, so I don't mind defending, I mean we can do a defensive Christianity, like what you think the true Christianity is or what is, I don't stand with some of these people, other people would call Christian, or what would be the foundations of that faith. Another show, that's, and I don't think it's our show, it's not the show that we need to do, because the show that we need to do is on your books, because you already totally get where I'm coming from, and you picked up the the trail immediately, because you're a good attorney, and you kind of saw through that, but what I think is interesting is the link, the path, and the Damian Eccles thing is just fascinating to me, and we're going to approach it and tear it apart, you know, so I've been on the trail of the Crowley thing, and I have friends who are in the magical community, if you will, and I have friends that are trying to make sense of that in a way that isn't crazy, that I don't think is evil, that I don't think is demonic, I'm not sure that really works at the end of the game, at the end of the day, in terms of my understanding of spirituality, but I respect that people have different ways of doing that, and I don't think that everyone who looks in that direction is, you know, damned or condemned, or even doing it for for evil purposes, so with that, you know, I just want to get to the facts, because I did this interview for my book with a guy I really like at Forum Borealis, and I did it without, and I started, you know, going into the Crowley test, what I call it, like all I've done is throw out Crowley, and when I get the Apologist for Crowley, I just start tearing him apart, I go, how does that make any sense to you? This is exactly what he said, how does this make any sense to you? He did this, he admitted to diddling little kids, I mean, he admitted to that, he acknowledged that he had children present during his sex magic. Encouraged it, right, encouraged it. So yeah, but there's all this Apologist stuff, and that's the test that immediately splits it, but I'm kind of jumping ahead, because I want to go back to, people don't really know, like I was telling you, Forum Borealis, he's in Europe, he's in Norway, and I'm rattling off West Memphis 3, and he's like, what's West Memphis 3? So if you can, just catch out the big picture of West Memphis 3, and I think the other thing that I'd love to have you talk about, and then I'm going to hit you with some more questions on the details, because they're fantastic, is what happened to West Memphis 3? Because you know that the general impression is, well, they just found them innocent, that they didn't do it. Right, right, so they're supposedly innocent, they were arrested for a crime they did not commit. These are the standard kind of PR axioms that you'll see in almost every article that is Pro West Memphis 3, which there really aren't any very, there's very few anti- West Memphis 3 out there, but the true crime story really started in May 5th of 1993, after three young boys went disappeared, they were eight years old, right in line with Crowley's teachings on human sacrifice in Magic and Theory of Practice, they were eight years old, they went, they disappeared, they were found the next day in a ditch in a little area called Robin Hood Hills, outside of West Memphis, West of Memphis, Tennessee across the Mississippi River, and they were two were found later after a medical examination to have been drowned, they were tied up in a very strange manner, ankle to wrist, one had bled out after his genitals had been removed, and so it was a particularly graphic and brutal crime, there was blood all over the place, was never admitted into court, but the luminal tests were taken, and so there was blood all over that area, and there was an outcry trying to figure out who did this, there was a suspect that was mentioned by a probation officer by the name of Jerry Dreimer, who said that this young man by the name of Damien Eccles, real name, given name was Michael Hutchison, was his born name, but he changed his name to his stepfather's last name and took on the name Damien, and so he was investigated, he was brought into the, according to the court, the records that are on the police records, he was brought into the police office, he was questioned, he failed a polygraph test, he said if I talked to my mom I'll tell you everything, if you let me talk to my mom so he wouldn't talk to his mom, then he clammed up, but the investigated investigation continued, they didn't have enough evidence to arrest any of them until they brought in another young man by the name of Jesse Miss Kelly on June 3rd of 1993, who then confessed and implicated Damien Eccles and Jason Baldwin, and all three were arrested, they were tried separately due to some evidence that was going to be put in a trial, and 24 jurors found them both guilty, Damien Eccles was over 18, he was given the capital punishment, and the other two pretty much got life sentences, and then there was the probably the key lever in creating doubt in the public's mind was the involvement of an HBO documentary, there was really a trilogy, the first one was titled Paradise Lost, which came out in 1996, and then there were two others that I think it was 2001 and maybe 2004, I can't remember the exact dates of when those came out, but there were three, they cast doubt upon the guilt, the first one kind of was somewhat objective, but the second one kind of blamed one of the stepfathers by the name of buyers, and then the third one pretty much implicated another man by the name of Terry Hobbs, created kind of a furor, it snowballed, other people got involved, celebrities got involved, money was raised, possibly they're saying a huge amount of money, 10 to 20 million dollars, probably the best appellate attorney out there got involved and put pressure on the state government through new laws that have been created about DNA testing and there was going to be a hearing in 2011, I think in December, to judge whether some of this DNA could be used, but in August 2011 an agreement was reached and the three pled guilty, so they already had all been found guilty, they pled guilty again to first-degree murder, they admitted on signed documents, you know, they're adults now, but through the best attorneys really available, that there was enough evidence to possibly convict them again, they went to court, they were put under 10 years of probation, they were let out while professing innocence on something called an alphabre plea, which is a supreme court case, based on a supreme court case called Alford v North Carolina and which allows you to profess your innocence publicly while pleading guilty, so they're basically guilty, they're still guilty and under probation until next year. I asked you to keep it vanilla and man, you really kept it vanilla, because let me let me kind of pull you into the real stuff, like anyone who goes and googles west Memphis three, I'm not exaggerating the first five, you know, first ten, second ten, third ten, satanic panic, satanic panic, satanic panic, that's the only thing you hear about this case, it doesn't have anything to do with the facts, it's all, and that's what's going to be so interesting as we dive into this, why did this become the kind of poster child for satanic panic, and why do we think that that's not accidental, it's just, it can't be, and all again, all the wrong people wind up lining up with this guy and flashing, you know, satanic signs and all the rest with this guy and statements, yeah, all kinds of stuff, I mean it's all over there, so why is it satanic panic if the guy's a member of the OTO while he's in jail, while he's also just recently admitted to be part of AA, which is specifically traced to Crowley, who wrote in his own writing on Vice that he was prosecuted for his love of the knowledge of Alistair Crowley specifically, and it just, Crowley's name pops up all over us, and that's really what piqued my interest in this whole case. Isn't it true, William, that we have evidence of him, like, performing a satanic ritual in a burning garage that he set on fire, I mean, and then go ahead on that one. Well that's true, I mean, that's in, that was an original case, they say that he was prosecuted for wearing black, but he was actually arrested before the events for kind of moonlighting, I think, in an abandoned trailer, and then there was testimony of all kinds of weird stuff he was doing, and there was all their statements in the corporate files, which I included in my book about them hanging out at Stonehenge, the involvement of, I mean, just crazy stuff, off the charts, off the charts, and you do do an amazing job in the film. Let me pause for a minute, let me see if I can pull that, pull that up. The best type of human sacrifice, correct? Yes, sir. But Alistair Crowley doesn't have any particular significance to you. So the prosecutor at trial had a photocopy of Alistair Crowley's magic and theory and practice on his desk. I know who he is, I've read a little bit about him, but I've never read anything by him. Let me show you. Okay, I'll stop it there if I can, but I want to give people a little bit of a taste for the excellent movie that you put together. Tell us what's happening there with all that you really feel for that kid. I have to say, I know they prepped these these defendants, but he looks so innocent and harmless, but that's exactly the point I wanted to put on about the deception. He's caught with an outrageous lie there, right? Right, yeah. I mean they caught him in a lie that he was writing like a secret script. I mean the the allegation is that he was obsessed with the occult, right? But they denied all that, but while he was in jail, what's he doing? He's writing this secret script that has Jason Baldwin's name in Alistair Crowley, and then he gets out. What's he doing? He's writing books about magic with a K, and making all these very different interviews. He's quoting, he's talking about the moonlight, he's talking about rituals, he's tweeting about it. I mean it's just incredible that people can actually be led on to think that that's not involved in this case. So I want to touch on two things. I want to hit on the deception thing in a minute because I think if people aren't aware that that is part of the ethos, that is built into this system of beliefs, which is that I can lie to you. It's okay for me to lie to get my end. Deception is in the thread and the title of your book. Do you want to speak to that? Have you found that to be true? Absolutely. I think that they lie about all that stuff. They lie about their secret society associations, about who their friends are, about their signals. There's a real winking and odd, just like you mentioned, within these groups. So I think that not disclosing, you know, omission, what did Orwell say, admission is the greatest form of lie. So they admit to tell you all this stuff, that there's all kinds of weird associations. I mean there's some dark habits. I mean there's so much deception in this case that almost everything that's proffered by eckles and some things, just nothing is really that honest. He said that he was sick, that he was beaten in jail all the time, that his teeth were going to fall out, that they had to take the deal because he was going to die. Hey guys, I just wanted to jump in for one second with a couple additional points that I wish I would have asked William, but I didn't. So I'm going to try and get those in here and these come directly out of his book Abomination, Devil Worship and Deception in the West Memphis Three Murders. And it's really important for getting to the bottom of this question of whether Damien Eccles did these deeds, these horrible, evil deeds. I have to make the distinction because a lot of people don't get this. It doesn't speak to whether or not he should have been released, you know, whether there were some technical requirements in the legal system that weren't met or whether any of that stuff, that's separate from whether the guy did it. But the guy did it. I mean, the interview he has in the book, the police interviews they did, and these police interviews are tricky because police in these situations do some pretty, I don't know, to me kind of shady kind of thing. Like one of the things they do to people is they say, okay, who do you imagine would have done this crime? So they get him down this whole line. But listen to what he says. First, Damien confirmed that he liked to read books and one of his favorite writers was Church of Satan founder Anton LeVe and the Satanic Bible. Now that, again, you know, for the people who are apologists for Satanism, they're like, hey, you know, you should be able to read whatever you want. Sure, you should be able to read whatever you want, but they ask him specific questions about the murder and they say, you know, Damien, again, what would you, how would you imagine it going down? And he said, well, he figured that the killer knew the kids in the woods and even asked them to come out to the woods. He said that the boys were not big, not smart, and they could have been easy to control. He also felt that the killer would not have worried about screaming due to being in the woods in Close to the Expressway. And then he said some important factual details. Damien said that the bodies of all the boys had been mutilated and one had been mutilated a lot more than the others. This is a fact that was not known to anyone except those at the crime scene because the police never released this information. He also said that Steve Jones from the juvenile authority had told him about how the boys' testicles had been cut off and that someone had urinated in their mouths. Damien said that that could have been the reason why their bodies were placed in the water so that the urine could have been washed out. This is another critical piece of evidence because this information was never released. Steve Jones from the juvenile authority had no way of knowing that and couldn't have told that to Damien. Only someone at the crime scene could have known that. So again, I'll leave it off there because I hate all this nasty, gory, true crime stuff. But again, pack this back into the question of whether or not this is a case of satanic panic. Okay, back to the interview. You know, all kinds of crazy stuff that if you look at the totality it's just nonsense. It's really hard for people to believe that in real foot like literal Satanism that there's groups of networked people out there. And I think that that's really the hardest part of addressing the West Memphis Three. I think you're absolutely right about that. You know, one of the chapters I have in my book is an interview that I did with this woman named Annika Lucas. And she's really a lovely person and we connected. We both like yoga and she's a yoga teacher for incarcerated women in upstate New York and she's got this transformation that she's gone through in her life. And she would have to because at six years old she was sold by her mother to a satanic ritual occult abuse network in Belgium. Right, Belgium, right. Was she associated with the Dutro thing? Well, she's careful about who she names, but it's very clear that that is the group that had her because she mentions and that's fascinating too. Right, because talk about history repeating itself. You know, there was this big, you know, drain the swamp and this is this pedo ringing. You know, as I tell people, anyone has any doubts. You can still Google photos of kids in cages tied up, you know, just all the most horrible of the horrible things you can see and her account is that she was going to be killed. She had been raped like thousands of times. Six years old. Remember, six years old by her mother. And and but the interesting thing I always alert people to is that if you want to take a secular perspective on this, it doesn't work because what these people are doing and they will tell you what they're doing is they are trying to one connect with some benevolent force in this extended realm and they're trying to connect with that force for a reason to bring in a certain energy into this realm. And that's why they connect with Alistair Crowley. And so it's nothing unique about Alistair Crowley. It's just many people have chosen that at all costs, they're so attached to this world and what they can get out of this world that any entity in that extended realm that connects and offers that chance, they'll do it. And so please. Well, that's I'm glad you brought up that case because it was totally networked. It was covered up. There was all kinds of shenanigans that took place under the surface like the prosecutor got fired and there's an incredible German documentary that traces just the people that were murdered around the Dutro case that knew too much. It's like 25 people like I knew too much. I mean they're going to kill me ends up dead. Another person says I've got information on this gets run over by a car. It's incredible. It's like JFK, you know, all the people who knew about that who ended up dead. It's incredible. The Dutro case, if you don't think that that's networked evil, I'm sorry, you're just wrong because it went to the highest levels of that elite. And Dutro was known to leave Belgium. He was moving around Europe. So they don't even know the totality of what happened in the horror show. Like two of the kids died because he was in jail and couldn't feed him in the dungeon. And that's so that's a real problem like this. They can't. People cannot connect to spiritual evil. And I'm glad you brought that up because that's what these people are doing. That's what Crowley was doing. If you read his corpus and all the stuff, he's talking to entities. He's traveling through the astral plane. He's got a boss and the wizard and Alamantra working the Jarensis working Koran's on. You know, he's supposedly talking to all these people. How literal. I mean, it's hard to say I'm there, but that's what a lot of these things they're doing is summoning demons. And that's who's giving him information. That's what he's writing down. So I think that magic, that's really it. And the real argument is, is like, are these figments of your imagination? Or is there something outside of your personality that people are perceiving? Right. And I mean, I think in the mad, if you want to talk about the magical community, that's an argument. However, I don't know how Crowley could have written down or like a gray alien back in 1918 in New York after an Alamantra working. So that is such a stretch for the imagination. And you still see this kind of reference alien extraterrestrial. What if they're extra dimensional? So and they see when people do Yage or they do ayahuasca, there's always this green man they're talking to people at have these weird entity experiences. And that may be all the UFO phenomenon really is, is really people who are having extra, you know, extra dimensional events, not extraterrestrials. And we go, I could talk about that in Children of the Beast, ballet, talking to McMurtry and all these other things. But well, I think here's where I want to go with that. And I don't know if we've maybe we've hammered on this enough or maybe not. I can't tell. But there's this there's this doublespeak going on, you know, the cultural part of it. And I'm struggling. I'd like you to talk more about the culture around satanism and occultism. And I don't want to use those words in the way that they're usually used, you know, I mean, I had Oxford Christian scholar, Richard Smolley, how God became God, super great guy scholar, religious scholar and remains a Christian. But he'll point out to you that historically satan, you know, isn't in the pre Torah writings and he kind of pops in after Zoroaster. And we have all these things of the reality we're co-creating reality. I talked to William I can't tell you how many near experience people I've talked to. But I talked to a guy just the other day. Fantastic guy. I have no doubt about his Christ consciousness experience because that's what happened to him. He died who's actually he went to kiss his girlfriend at the commuter train and the door closed on his coat. Oh, wow. Drag him under the train and he died and he saw Jesus and he had this incredible experience. I don't doubt that he had this incredible experience in this consciousness realm with Jesus. But then I asked him, I said, you know, David, a lot of people I've talked to that have multiple near death experiences. They sometimes say that the Christ figure kind of gives way to an even greater in a higher God, you know, there's hierarchy. And he goes, I can't deny that that isn't true because I got a sense that there's more for me and stuff like that. I'm not trying to I'm not trying to kind of preach tea on any of that stuff. I'm just trying that what that opens up to me is the possibility that we need to consider an unbelievably varied realm in this extended realm, which is even more complicated than our realm and that because we don't know what these guys are doing. Exactly. And I'm uncomfortable with just saying a demon, but they wanted a demon. I just don't think we know enough. We know it's evil. We know it's dark. And I'm just kind of rambling here. So save. Well, but I think it's interesting because you can even look out of the biblical context of the these like demonic entities are all through kind of the global mythos through all of these legends and stuff like that, that there's bad spirits. Almost every culture has some kind of reference to these kind of things that are outside of themselves, not ghosts or something, but some kind of evil presence. So it's a commonality, not just kind of in the Bible where the New Testament talks about Christ being tempted by Satan. There's actually references to you know, Satan right there at the end before in Jerusalem at the Last Supper with Judas, right? Satan enters into Judas and he goes and betrays Christ. So, but even there's even a reference to Satan in Isaiah, for example, which is the Old Testament. But yeah, before that, maybe not so much, but there's definitely even the Mosaic is fighting against. It's interesting because in the Bible, Paul mentions Moses contesting against the two magicians of the time in Pharaoh's court, Janus and Jambraus, but they're not mentioned in the Exodus or Mosaic narrative. So Paul seemed to have some reference to these two magicians and there are magicians in the Bible like Simon Magus and the witch at Endor. So this kind of magical tradition is a part of human civilization, a dark magic, maybe if you want to call it that. But you know, so something outside of yourself, like some demon, I think extra entity or something like that isn't that hard to believe. And then if you want to say like on people who've had experience miracles, near death experiences, you know, there's varieties of religious experience just like that book said. So I don't think it's outside of that. I mean, it happens whether it's within the Christian tradition or not. Right. So we're kind of pushing this box. So we're kind of an agreement that we're being kind of pushed in this box to either deny evil. And when I say evil, you know, let's try and work towards a definition. This kind of soul crushing extra dimensional help in order to destroy someone's soul, that's evil. We can kind of drive that one to the ground and say, okay, I don't know about drone striking, you know, a wedding party in Yemen, which I think is pretty bad. But who knows, it has some geopolitical aim or something like that. This we can more clearly say, yeah, that's, can't see any other way that that is an evil. So then what is the play in culture? Why do we have this divide? Why do we have like we talked about the very beginning, you know, the Neil deGrasse de Tyson, who we really think is probably just completely oblivious, you know, is just happy living in his materialistic world. And then you got the kind of Hollywood, you know, which you've just explored extensively is going like, man, we're way past you guys. We're using this we're using the force. Right. Oh, well, yeah, it's a good point. I mean, look at Johnny Depp. He supposedly uses these entities to inform himself on all of his roles. Like he's fully involved in these things. And like, what would be called evil? If you want to define, like people ask me, why do you like you're an admirer of Crowley or you seem to talk about him in laudatory terms. I don't call them the prophet of evil. He thought he was a prophet of the new Aeon. I believe is evil because all of his ideas are antithetical towards the treatment of society really in general. It's super selfish. You lie. Like you said, we can go over this theme of our conversation. You lie, you manipulate, the slave shall serve. You know, Crowley was kind of like a classist of the worst sword. But I think the definition of the issue of evil is like what people are willing to do to their fellow man to get worldly benefits, whether it's money, sex, fame, kind of the standard, the standard sins. And then you can kind of counter pose that at least teaching of Christianity, which is somewhat universal, is like Christ is a servant, right? So he's, and you turn the other cheek and you know, there's these teachings here where you're not supposed to propagate trauma or hurt on somebody else. That's kind of like what turning the other cheek is, you don't strike back. And so it kind of lessens you know, whatever, whatever harms are going out there. It doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't engender that kind of kind of malevolence towards people, you know, people hurting each other. So, you know, I can, I can definitely see Crow, and Crowley himself was in really, I mean, it's interesting too about how many of these occultists really are Christ and Christianators, whether it's Hubbard or Crowley or Hitler or some of these other people, how they really deliberately counterpoise themselves against the teaching of Christ. And I think there's a couple of interesting things and I don't know if we can kind of smooth this out and hit all the points, but there's, there's one is the you know, and this is in the Crowley thing and maybe you can pick up on it and elaborate on it, but the, the do-with-thou wilt ethos, which whatever you talk to a Crowley apologist, they jump on that, they go, you don't know what that means. You don't know what that really means. I go, his whole life is about that. I mean, look at his life, look at the deeds, you know, the fruit. But I guess related to that is, is kind of this Sabotee and Frankish kind of, we can't all be saints, so let's all be sinners and this kind of Crowley, I want to do the most horrible, but then they twist it into, again, this Christian thing of, because that will, in this twisted way, bring about the next coming of Christ. Right. Right. You want to speak to that at all? Well, I mean, I think that, you know, Crowley said he got, got power from transgression and I think that's a very common theme within occultists or Satanists or whatever, however you want to call them. So, and I think that the worst crimes I think are, you know, it's an inversion. So, definitely it's there and Crowley, and it's, it was funny like somebody asked Crowley, what if you have two people whose wills doing what they will? What if they conflict? What if they're head butt over it? And he didn't have an answer for that. So, you can just see is the wreckage of Crowley's life, the ruined lives, the wrecked lives, the suicides, you know, he would just, it was like an energy drain on almost all of his scarlet women, branding him on the chest, and then when he was done, they were done. They were not giving him this spiritual energy that he wanted and he just moved on. So, I don't think that his life, I mean, if the apologists think that he lived an exemplary life, I think that they're deluding themselves. There's a lot of delusion in the Crowley followers and there's a lot of simplification that a lot of these people don't really, the people who admire Crowley only saw him one side, which is his religion, but not his real personality and the way he behaved toward others, you know. So, I don't think that the truth, they, I think, I think if they look at the truth of really what he did, and that was really one of the things that why I was inspired to write a book about Crowley is because of all of the, you know, kind of expurgated elements of his life that people just left out. They just call him a great man, a liberator of humanity and all this other stuff, but he was down, I mean, he was an outright satan, as he admitted as much that Awas was Lucifer and, you know, the devil of the starry universe. So, he just, he just concealed it and camouflaged it much better than maybe kind of a, you know, person like LaVe. So, William, before we run out of time because I've kind of babbled on about a lot of my stuff, one of the important things about your work, especially with Crowley is you give the direct connections to present day culture, like Timothy Leary might be one that some people have known that for a while, but some people don't. Obviously the music industry, the Hollywood industry and this, you know, just admiration and this kind of blind devotion. And you can only imagine the feedback we're going to get from this show. I mean, because there's some real Crowley defenders and they're just out to stomp out, you know, anyone who says that. Well, connections to important cultural figures in time, Crowley. Well, I mean, you can just go back through so many influential people, whether it's Hubbard, whether it's Leary, whether it's Jimmy Page, Kenneth Anger, who's associated with the Manson family. I mean, he literally lived with Bobby Beuselay. And Bobby Beuselay was in Lose of Horizon. And it's one element of the whole corpus of works about Manson that you almost never hear about is that Beuselay who murdered him and was living with Anger and was in a movie with him who was also considered himself a warlock and was also associated with so many other cultural events and still alive. Still alive today, believe it or not. Anger has been friends with Jack Parsons and Marjorie Cameron all the way to today. And also, it's also an element of the elite because one of his great sponsors was J. Paul Getty, Jr., one of the richest men in the world who paid whenever Anger wanted to take flights. He just got a carp launch payment from the Getty family which tells you a lot about the elite. And Getty used to get in do all kinds of weird rituals and tombs and stuff. You really, if you really look past the curtain of these people, they're much darker than you can imagine. So, I think that that culture is very important and it's usually left out in these histories of these people. They probably, like I said, it's an expurgated herd that's selective history. So if we can go back to the very beginning of our talk where if you have a materialist, Darwinist, you know, person without a kind of a spiritual view, they just won't even look at these things as important markers upon character and how that character plays itself out in the real world. They just won't even accept it. Then if you have the occultists, they're deliberately keeping that out. So, you have a, there's a real history, historiographical problem because a lot of these people move into these not, into these characters and their understanding of what they're really doing because there's parties deliberately, whether because of their own inherent biases or intentionally because they're occultists, which is to hide something, keeping that out. So, and that's really when you see these characters how if you don't get all the facets of their character and like Hubbard, who was the source, I mean all the same kind of fake prophecy type stuff, how toxic and dangerous Hubbard really was in Scientology. If you don't see that part of his connection to Crowley, you could probably, you could literally have your soul raped by him and that whole organization. You know, kind of related to that. It took me a long time to come to this realization about the atheist materialist, you know, there's no meaning, you're a biological robot. The whole top of your brain is just a big deceiver of reality to perpetrate your genes. That's all it is. It's impossible for me to accept that that isn't conspiracy also, that that isn't orchestrated because what it just totally fits into the playbook, you know, and people don't realize that to do that, it doesn't require a completely orchestrated kind of thing. You just put the cheese in the maze where you want these little rats to run and they don't even know what they're doing, but they're doing the bidding of someone who says, hell, yes, I want people to think that life is meaningless and to just be materialists and consumers. That fits in perfectly. Well, let me, you know, let me just follow I'll do that because it's like, if you're an elitist, that's what you want. You're the people who are your slaves serving to believe. There's no meaning. Don't make any changes. There's no action on your behalf. I mean, if you look at Darwin and really unpack the origin of species, it really is a big racetrack and it has its own ideology outside of science. It's about the most favored favored races to and the struggle for survival. Right. That's the subtext of it. If you ever see Darwin, he's making the occult sign of silence. So this kind of occultism has been around forever, pre-Crowley. He just adapted and adopted and stalled it or lifted, but it puts Darwin in a completely different light about what his real objectives were and why the Royal Society wanted to promote those objectives, which is basically the king and queen of England. So I justified their whole empire. Right. Totally. And especially there at the top, the global empire. Sorry. No, no, no, that's tough. I'm sorry, but especially we did a bunch of shows on Wallace, you know, who is the contemporary of, if you go back in the history books, like 50 years, the co-discoverers of evolution were Darwin and Wallace, especially if you go back 75. And Wallace is kind of erased out because Wallace comes to the conclusion that there's a higher order of consciousness to this. There's no getting around it. And in fact, I've had some scholars on here, and I didn't make a very convincing case that Darwin plagiarized Wallace's writings in order to get his theory because he didn't have the data. Wallace was in the field collecting just widely the data. He stops on the Galapagos Islands, which is great, you know, but he gets this very narrow bit. Wallace is, you know, he's the working man kind of thing. He's out there having to struggle and collect all these things. I forget where he was, but you know, anyways, that's a story for another time because here's the other question I wanted to skip back and really, really dig into this one. What do you make of, you know, we see the Hollywood thing and we like, we get that, that Johnny Depp is in, you know, he just looks like a tragic figure to me. He just looks like somebody whose soul has been sucked out of him, you know, and so many people, I know that's going to sound kind of churchy to people, but I don't, don't you see that? I mean, don't you see that in some of these people, but other ones, you feel like maybe they're just being duped and that's where you really feel sorry. They're going to the parties and, you know, Abranovic is, you know, cutting up the cake and isn't this cool and they don't understand what's at play or do you think they do? Well, I mean, I could probably analogize it to my life. They had just a naive view of certain things, you know, I had a very naive view of American politics. I, you know, and there's a lot more going on under the surface than you could imagine and it's probably the same in Hollywood. People wanted to be famous or they wanted to be in the arts and they may not even know what it takes to get to the top and I think that Hollywood, for example, at least recently, I think you've got to be initiated to get to the top one way or another. You're either into pedophilia or occultism or just something dark. So, everybody knows something about somebody else, you know, and that's why, like a guy like Weinstein was raping people for decades. I love the most, the amount of people who come forward is probably just, you know, a tip of the iceberg for that guy. So, there's something really creepy going on in Hollywood and I think a lot of those guys, if you really read about some of these stories, it just, I mean, if you, have you ever read Crazy Days and Nights? It's a really good, it's a really good website, but they are leaking information from these guys that they're just monsters, man. A lot of these stars and celebrities and directors were child rapists. I mean, man. So, I think that that's how the system kind of, and a lot of people who survive, some people don't survive in Hollywood. They crack and they leave or they just are disillusioned, but the ones that have been there forever, Johnny Depp's a perfect example. If you look at this Corp case that he's having with Amber Herd's involvement, they have a recording of that guy just howling in pain. Like, there's something like about him that, yeah, it's wrong. I mean, you can, his association with Eccles and he was one of the chief financial backers to get Eccles out and along with Peter Jackson. So, do you know who Chris Knowles is? He writes a blog. Yeah, I know Chris Knowles. You know, I interviewed Chris a few weeks ago and I think he's like me. He has some friends who, you know, we like and respect but are kind of in this magic community and we keep going, what are you doing guys? But he said it so perfectly. He said, you know, if you think you're talking to this demon or this entity and they're going to do these fantastic things for you, what do you have to offer in return? And I thought, isn't that, doesn't that just ring true on a kind of personal level? How do you think you're going to make that deal work? You have nothing except your soul to give and that's what you will be asked to give at one point or another, you know? Very good point. Very good point. Hey, last, last point and then I'll wrap it up. I appreciate you. Push it right up to the 90 minutes. Russ Dizdar has a really interesting theory. It's going to sound completely wacky to a lot of people, but I got a lot of reason to believe that he's on the right thing and that a lot of times when we hear about this sexual abuse of children, pedophilia, that it's not even so much about sexual abuse, it's about traumatizing children in order to create this disassociative identity disorder because it is a direct link to making them more vulnerable to spiritual attack. And the crazy thing about that is that connects directly to stuff we've learned about MKUltra and that we were trying to weaponize that disassociative identities disorder aspect because we learned that it's almost like a technology. It's a secret code. And what do you think about that? Do you have any thoughts if you're on my side? I think he's right. I think he's right. I think that that's true. I mean, I think that that's in a very dark way. A lot of the stuff that happens in the Catholic Church is to keep people in the Catholic Church so they get traumatized, right? They become helpless. They become less active, so to speak, or authoritative. So I think that that's definitely I mean, believable, right? I think that that's what they're doing. They're deliberately traumatizing the kids as well. Yeah, for sure. And you can see that in some of these cases, McMartin and stuff, the kids are deliberately being traumatized or the finder's case. I mean, they're all using these same techniques and these strange occultists are running the whole show. If you look at the finder's case, man, terrifying. Well, you can get into deliberate traumatization in 9-11. I mean, incredible. It's traumatizing if you think the government did it or it's traumatizing if you think that some guy in a cave in Afghanistan did it. So when you get into weaponized traumatization, then you're at this, that just the thought that someone has figured out that they can get a leg up by doing that is really scary, especially in this extended realm. Yeah. Very scary. And you know, the traumatization starts and then the suggestion follows, right? So you traumatize and then the suggestion and then... You've opened up the door. And then they have it. Yeah. And then you're absolutely right. Then you have this kind of approach this technique that they know, right? It's a known skill. It becomes a skill. And they developed that. I mean, this book, you should have O'Neill, Tom O'Neill is a guest, the book chaos about Manson. He uncovered information that these guys, these Jolly and West and Greenberg were in communication with each other talking about creating hypnotized people and traumatizing them all the way back in the 50s and 60s. And they had to lie about these techniques and say it's not possible because that was the cover on the truth that they could literally hypnotize people through traumatization and stuff like that. If you look at Sirhan Sirhan like I've talked to authors about that, he disappeared for two weeks. They don't even know where he was. They think he was in some kind of... California was really crazy in the 60s. Holy smokes. Anyway, that's off talking. But it kind of is this technique you're talking about. Somebody, some of these wizards and materialists like Jolly and West who had his son kill him and his wife in a freaking assisted suicide which is super dark knew that stuff. Okay. I was going to try and wrap it up but you've kind of opened something up. Oh, I want you to... I want you to close... I want you to close that door because it brings it around full circle. You're talking about it and I love that you just kind of... just the facts, ma'am. But connect that. What does that mean on a political level? You know, when you talk about local politics or national politics or geopolitically, you know, I mean, what does that mean? We are part of that, right? We live here and we are part... How do you process that? It's terrifying. Well, it's terrifying. Like this book, The Shock Doctrine, they think that these political leaders all the way back to the overthrow of Allende, duly elected guy in Chile, of Pinochet, that they have learned this technique of how to terrify a populace where you don't even have to use force because the psychological traumatization is so strong that people will be terrified to do anything. And so I think that that is a horrible conclusion, just the implication of that and the conclusion of that happening in other countries and possibly even here, if you read Mind War by Valelli and what's that? I can't remember. Michael Aquino. There's a guy. Don't be surprised that these guys are using it on you. I mean, that's what's really scary is these techniques. They know it. William, I've avoided in all my shows, even talking about COVID, never brought it up. But the trauma part is just unavoidable when you start putting together these cases and you're talking about Chile, you know, and let's get everyone in the in the soccer stadium and turn on the lights and keep them there for, you know, two days and then let's just take two of them out and shoot them. That's all we have to do is just kill two of them and bring back the bodies and now everyone can go home. That's it. Excellent point. You know, yeah, they only killed in that whole overthrow, they only killed 3000 people considering it was a huge country. It's not, I mean, compared, it's a tragedy, but to pacify the entire country, it's not that many people dead. So William, it's been just awesome having you on, especially this end part. I hope people can get an appreciation for just, gosh, the depth of now and I almost feel like maybe we didn't, I pulled you around in too many wrong places, but I couldn't help it because you just know so much and I wanted to pick and poke at so many different things. Tell folks how they can stay on top of this work, where they can find you are going and keep up with your shows and keep up with your books and maybe what's on the horizon coming up. Well, I've been doing documentaries recently, so my documentaries can be found on Vimeo under William Ramsey. I have five documentaries there. And then I kind of do a podcast, William Ramsey Investigates, which you can get on iTunes or Spreaker or anything like that. I have a lot of old research into the West Memphis Three on my YouTube channel, which I'm trying to kind of just morph away from or use less, but there's old videos there if you want to see my research going back with all these other characters at William Ramsey Investigates. And you know, I have three books that I wrote about these different subjects which you can find on Amazon or my website is William Ramsey Investigates.com if you want signed copies. And William Ramsey Investigates, I just want to tell people again, it's up-to-date stuff. You know, we've just been kind of in this one little lane, but you're talking to all sorts of different interesting people and really digging in in that kind of attorney style, get to the facts kind of thing. So like, who are some of the guests that you've had on recently that you were really excited to interview and who are some of the people you have coming up? Well, just like I talked to you, I talked to Tom O'Neill about his book Chaos, I highly recommend that book. I talked to a really good book about the if you want to talk about a huge Psyop, it's the people's, no, it's the Symbionnes Liberation Army. The book is Revolution's End by Schreiber. Highly recommend that book because it was just one tiny little piece of this operation chaos where a fake leftist organization, in my opinion, and I think their author's opinion as well, was created to subvert the left. And it was the Symbionnes Liberation Army and this guy, Sinkay. And I would highly recommend that book because it'll twist your ideas about how some of these- I'd highly recommend that interview you did. Yeah. That was a great- Oh, really good. Now, Brad Schreiber is his name. Highly recommend, good great writer. And then I also, Lisa Peace about RFK and Sir Anne Surhan about political assassination. So, you know, I'm really definitely interested in parapolitics. So, and I think that those books all back up their premises and their positions. I think that Sir Anne Surhan was a Patsy and it had real- something was going on with him. He was a subject of something really creepy. So, those are just some examples. I'm trying- you know, not everybody says yes to my interviews, but I think I've been very fortunate to get really good authors. I do read the books, so I definitely try to be an informed interviewer and not try to get anything away. Just focus on the context in the book and make people make their argument or why they have this position. And I think that, you know, I've had people from it's, you know, I try, I'm not, I'm done with like political parties. So, I don't really have a partisan axe to grind. And I think that benefits talking to people. So, I think in that regard, I'm pleased with some of the interviews I've done recently for sure. Well, fantastic. It's been absolutely great having you on and I hope people do check out William Ramsey Investigate. So, thanks again. Well, it's great to talk with you, man. It's really good to be with somebody as well informed as you. So, it's been a delight for me. Thanks again to William Ramsey for joining me today on Skeptico. He is quite impressive in terms of his knowledge of this topic and his ability to dive deep with all the legal stuff. So, it was really great having him on. The one question I tee up from this interview is where do you come down on Damien Eccles in the West Memphis 3 with regard, particularly to satanic panic? Is he the poster boy he's made out to be for satanic panic? Or was there enough satanic stuff going on in and around his life? You know, it didn't bring up the thing with his mother. But, you know, his mother gave birth to him when she was like 15 years old. And it's just such a dysfunctional. You have to, you cannot go through this and not feel sorry for this kid, Damien Eccles, even though, you know, he did what he did. But, you know, his mother, his mother is into all this stuff and gets him into all this satanic stuff. You know, and that's never really, that's all kind of washed away and obscured in this kind of ocean of oh, it's all satanic panic, witch hunt craziness, which it's not in my opinion. But what's your opinion? This is supposed to be a question. So let me tee it up as a question. What do you think? Satanic panic? Yes or no. I realize it's gonna be kind of hard to answer that one since I came down pretty strong on it. But it's kind of a hot button issue for me. Dude, let me know what you think. Stay with me for all these future shows coming up. I got a bunch of them. I don't know how I'm gonna get them all out. But they're coming. Until next time, take care. Bye for now.