 Our next presenter was a front-runner for the Dutch Pirate Party, and she is now a privacy advisor for startpage.com. The talk is about the lessons of the past five years when she was fighting for digital rights as bits of freedom, which is the Dutch equivalent of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Please welcome Ansila van de Leest. Thank you. Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining my talk tonight. This shot is a very special occasion for me because it's kind of a five-year anniversary for me of my privacy activism. I started in 2012 when I joined this community and tried to fight for our common ground. I'd like to share with you my lessons of the past five years. They haven't always been pleasant, but I do try to keep it positive and share with you some knowledge that maybe you can use in your own life. I started in 2003 with my own internet company because I was quite a technology optimist. I saw all the possibilities that technological advancement and the internet had to offer, and being a young person and seeing all these opportunities, I didn't think twice and just jumped on it. It was a beautiful time, and it was really a time when the internet was still kind of new. It wasn't all around us. Internet was kind of somewhere, like you had to go there. You had to log into a computer and find your way around. There was no Google, there was no Facebook, there was no Twitter, so it was very decentralized, so you had all these nice little niche hubs that you could join, and the niches would never meet. It wasn't so simple as you would just type in a name in the computer and get all the information out of it. It was much more mysterious. You much more had to work to find your way around it, and that was something I really enjoyed. Then one day, after 10 years of working as a model through my own website, I got a really bad throat infection, really bad ammonia, and being self-employed, it was quite an inconvenience because it actually put me in bed for a couple of weeks on end where I couldn't talk, and having to make phone calls and stuff just wasn't an option. I literally had to just lay down and wait for it to be over. Naturally, I was very bored, and I started reading on a topic that had my interest for quite a while, which was privacy, and development in privacy, and namely digital rights. So I started reading and reading and reading, and after like two weeks of this reading, I kind of thought we're in this most incredible time when we have so much freedom, so much liberty, we have access to so much information. As a worldwide, we've never been in this situation before, where you don't have to be rich or privileged to have access to this much information, like literally anything you want to know is on the tips of your fingers. And I started to realize that, and it also became kind of apparent, that the powers that be are not always too happy with that development. And you could kind of see the cracking down of a free internet and the conversation starting of how good is all this freedom that we have. Namely the case of Chelsea Manning, I think we can all remember clearly, where she leaked her video through WikiLeaks, collateral murder, and she was deemed the criminal, because she had made information public that should belong to us, considering it's our tax money that pays for essentially war crimes. So I started realizing, like, what a unique time we were in, we are in, and that if we didn't fight for the right to keep access to this information and to have the freedom of reading whatever you want to read without being constantly monitored, this was the time to fight for it. And after that, my ammonia disappeared, but I couldn't really go back to just running my fun little company that it was truly enjoying and making good money with, but I really felt like, okay, I grew up with the liberty of the internet, and I'd really like the next generations to have that as well. So there was no turning back. Now, standing here, five years later, time flies when you're having fun. And it's been quite an uphill battle. We've had some gains and a couple of disappointments, of course, and I've tried a couple of different avenues of fighting for a similar goal, freedom of information and digital privacy. So I started in 2012 after I recovered from my ammonia. I joined the digital rights organization, Bits of Freedom. I'd been supporting the work for a while, and they'd asked me to host a T-shirt contest before, and I saw that they were really struggling to get in enough donations to continue their work, and they literally said that out loud, like, if we don't get enough donations, we can't continue our work. So I shot a message and I said, is there anything I can do to help? And I said, sure, you can retweet and stuff. I said, well, I've already done that. I've already donated. Is there anything more I can do? I feel like you're lacking a bit of communication with the people who should be supporting you. So can I help? And to my surprise, I said, all right, join us. So I did. In my mind, this was like a learning experience, and I was just trying to help out a cause that I felt strongly about. I signed for six months, and it was very clear from the start that I would go on and go back to my regular business after six months. However, does anybody know what significant thing happened in 2013? Snowden. Two weeks after I quit Bits of Freedom, I was in New Zealand and I got all these phone calls and messages online of people saying, there's this guy, he's in the news. You would really like him. You really like his message. I'd been talking about government surveillance for quite a while, and people would think that it was overblown and a bit of a conspiracy thing, but now Snowden came out and, lo and behold, there it was. So all of a sudden, I got a lot of messages from people saying, oh darn, you might have been right about that government surveillance thing. This is kind of worrying. So I was planning on going back to my regular job, but from this moment on, once again, no going back. The lessons that I learned from Bits of Freedom that I want to share with you is powers in the numbers because I really noticed that for every lobbyist Bits of Freedom sends to Brussels and talk to politicians, you're literally up against an army of Google lawyers who get paid royally and are not ashamed to throw a lot of money into nice dinners and favors to politicians. And that is really like a very unfair battle because it's basically one lawyer for all of us against an army of lawyers for a corporate that doesn't even reside in Europe. Another challenge that we had was accessible language. When you're working with an NGO that has mostly lawyers, that language tends to be pretty high-brow, so it becomes really difficult to communicate with people who are less educated or simply not as smart and talk to them in a way that you can educate without talking down to them. This was really pretty difficult and I think it's something that we still haven't really resolved as a community. Another thing I ran into was ignorance of politicians. I hosted a workshop in Parliament on how the internet works. Literally, this was the name of the workshop, how the internet works, just the basics, because you got to start somewhere and it was just absolutely shocking how little politicians knew. Not only that, they're actually quite scared of the topic because they know they know nothing about it. So they're scared to join and instead of telling people getting told how things work. And I was quite shocked how little they knew and the level of knowledge within Parliament which later motivated me, of course, to do something about that, which I'll get to later. And funding, as I already mentioned, you're really dependent as an NGO of favors of people and getting in donations or do you spend money on communicating that you need donations or do you spend money on doing work and it's like a pretty fine balance. Then there's the issue of taking money from clubs like Open Society Foundation where you kind of have to wonder at a certain point in time when one institution funds all of the civil rights organizations, are you not posing a risk just by being dependent on one foundation? This is something that, in my opinion, is not talked about enough. Accomplices that we had were absolutely raising awareness. It's small steps and it's really difficult but every step in the right direction is a step in the right direction. Starting the conversation, like simply having a spokesperson be on TV when something happens and explaining what the deal is and explaining why civil rights and digital rights are important and also legal reference point. If you want to know what the ins and outs are of a certain case or like a new law that's being passed, it's really nice to have a platform that you can refer to that you know has really checked out their stuff really well. So, closing the chapter of bits of freedom and all the challenges that it posed, I wanted to continue my fight but in a different way. I felt like it needed definitely a little bit more asking, a little bit more activism. I was lucky enough to be asked for a couple of different political parties and after going through the their documents I settled for an unlikely choice namely the pirate party. I think this kind of stemmed from my experiences with bits of freedom where we always had to be very polite and nice and not very activist because you are talking to politicians and you do have to wear suits, etc. etc. And I felt like no, I feel very strongly about this and sometimes you want to take some risks as well. So and I also felt it really needed like a new political party because the establishment was not going to take this topic seriously. I could kind of already tell when talking to older politicians. So I joined local politics and our slogan kind of was politics needs nerds and this was actually quite a fun time because we were quite a small team and we were quite a small team and there was quite a lot of trust because we knew each other well and it was easy to visit each other and like go for meetings so at the time it was a lot of work, a lot of hard work but in hindsight it was actually quite a breeze compared to national politics. So the lessons from that is small team corporation will bring you much further quicker so when you're on a deadline it's really easier to have a small team of people that you can really trust and maybe you don't like every single one of them but at least you know their weaknesses and their strengths and you can delegate a little bit. On a local level in politics turns out voters are really up for an experiment they're not as afraid to lose to put everything on the line so even though the pirate party has less policy proposals on a local level you find that voters are more open to trying something new and trying a different thing so it was really easy to go and talk to them and convince them that maybe the pirate party was a really good choice and we also found that media was quite sympathetic with us they kind of thought we were kind of fun and gimmicky and new and they were reporting around the clock on politics so we were kind of a fun story to take along and especially the media that was trying to be hip and edgy gave us a lot of attention which was great so the accomplishments that we had was actually our first pirate got elected on the local level of Amsterdam West for the city council of Amsterdam we were actually short of 182 votes which is like nothing that's like one day of firing one radio interview one house party something like one extra volunteer maybe that was it so it was on one hand we were really happy that we really did accomplish the first elected pirate in Holland on the other hand short of 182 votes that really hurts I can tell you another accomplishment that we really did have was it was really easy to form bonds with other organization and groups that were fighting for similar causes so say the commons community that is fighting for commons ethics we have a good cooperation with them because it was really easy to get to know them embodying with voters simply going door by door being in certain places and firing and people seeing your face really helped to create trust so politics local level was a nice appetizer we accomplished a few things we had fun it was great and after that I actually left to Berlin for a little while because the info security community in the Netherlands is very small to say the least and I noticed that even some of my Dutch friends were moving to Berlin because they're simply more of a community feeling there and because it's a cheap city as opposed to the big cities in Holland there's more room for experimentation and there's less pressure to make a lot of money so hence more room to be experimental and fight for important causes that might not make you money so Berlin I would come back to that in a little while because there were some important lessons in there that I'd like to share with you that are quite connected to the community that we're sitting here with today so 2016 I wasn't actually planning on being a frontrunner it kind of just happened that way I was asked to join the debates and I did and I thought it'd be valuable for our party to at least have debates between different options of being a frontrunner to my surprise my personal favorite as a frontrunner stepped down and actually basically asked the Pirates to vote for me I really wish he'd consulted with me before he did that so so so there I was I was now a frontrunner for the Pirate Party after being elected by our members beforehand I wasn't sure if we were going to make it but I kind of figured it's absolutely worth the fight we have to at least try and worst case scenario we've learned a lot which I can't lie, that's true so this was our campaign poster we had some other ones as well with the eye patches which caused a huge debate was this one too serious were the other ones too silly were we being too subversive or trying to fit in too much it was really hard to please everyone of course you never succeed so the lessons from that there were a couple of ones there were a lot but there's a couple of ones that I want to share with you today beforehand I'd explicitly said that we should really make a choice whether we even wanted to talk to mainstream media or just go full on with an online campaign unfortunately we did opt to kind of try to do both with a very limited amount of people a small team and we quickly learned that the mainstream media was kind of proactively ignoring us and even after the election there were actually like a couple of articles in newspapers that said hey, during the election campaigns we talked about all the political topics except for any digital developments digital society and technology they even admitted themselves sometimes there was a call that said there were not enough women in politics and then they would name the women but they would just name the second woman on the list of an establishment party so that was kind of weird because there were two three new political parties all three of which had a woman as a front runner and those were ignored so that was really kind of interesting development that was going on there in the end I really wished we would have gone to social media and I think there was a small window of opportunity for that because you can already tell that there is no going around facebook you can't go without facebook you can't go without twitter you have to be out there even on the platforms that you are actually fighting against because otherwise you're simply invisible however facebook is making it harder and harder to be visible to your audience even if they liked your page they're still trying to get you to pay to even be noticed so I think we're going from platforms that were pretty clear cut you have a profile, people like your page and they get updated with whatever you have to say to basically facebook through algorithms deciding what they allow their users to see and whatnot and in some cases actively pushing you to pay to even get your message out there so I don't know what that's going to be like in the next election cycle in four years because I really wonder if even online there won't be that much room for new parties that simply don't have so much money to throw to platforms you can imagine in the case of being the pirate party even paying facebook for a sponsored advertisement is of course a huge debate it's like a huge moral debate within our party excuse me thank you we eventually opted oh yeah we eventually opted for a couple of ads that we thought were really important but I can tell you it felt really really wrong to give money to facebook to fight them another challenge that we ran into with the pirate party was organization because you know pirates are nerds and hackery types and some of them can be quite anarchist and that's one of our strengths as well that we have a lot of stubborn fighting people who like to think for themselves that really is one of our strengths at the same time it becomes a challenge to get everyone together especially when it's a larger group of people let's say 2000 pirate members to all head in the same direction and also at a pace and with some timing that is complementary towards each other eventually we found a way to do that it's called a whole arctic system of organization which I think it really holds a lot of potential for organizing activist groups in the future however when we discovered that the system was even out there and a possibility it was a bit too late to truly implement it within our party so this is why it happened that a lot of our pirates were very kind of stale and not participating through the election campaign and then the last two weeks individual pirates had organized so many things basically that we didn't get attention for any of them because there was simply too much going on because I guess last minute everybody woke up and thought oh shit elections is going to be in like next month I better organize something so it was also going to leave people free to come up with their own initiatives at the same time you have to keep them accountable sometimes there are certain events that are being organized that don't fit necessarily with the other pirates and it causes a huge internal conflict because some pirates are simply more left-wing and others are more right-wing or more libertarian so that brings me to the polarization and the nuance of the message that you're trying to bring across when there's a lot of pressure on and so many people trying to communicate a message it's really hard to do that without being polarizing while keeping the nuance so for example in the last month there were a couple of pirates in the women's rights march which was also a little bit of an anti-Trump march that was hugely unpopular with the other half of the pirates who didn't feel at all who couldn't identify at all with the women's rights movement so that was one thing another thing was we've often been accused of being a one-issue party digital rights and that was sometimes held against us as a negative as a matter of fact I think that with a new political party it's really smart to be a one-issue party and you can come much further with that as has been shown by the Dutch political party, the animal party the name says it all they're a political party and have actually been hugely successful in ten years time and now they're big enough that they can elaborate on their basic principles and that is really something I'd like to see for maybe not the pirate party but a digital rights party that it is a one-issue party at the last minute in our program some things were added about durability, sustainability and the environment forming and again that was a topic that was not at all supported by a huge number of pirates and caused a lot of internal conflict in hindsight it was added to the program but we didn't actually have the knowledge the deep-seated knowledge that we do have on digital rights issues like when we go into the realm of debate with other politicians we have no insecurity that we know exactly what we're talking about and they know very little that is not the case with environmental issues there's a couple of parties that are very well read on environmental issues and they're just much better at winning that debate so why would you even go into that contest another thing that happened which is a bit gruesome but I do want to share it with you because I think it touches upon a lot that's going on in our community when I was running for about two months as a front-runner something happened with the Berlin pirates where one of the elected pirates in Berlin killed himself and a colleague of his in a pretty gruesome way and obviously it was quite a shock to us not in the least because I just lived in Berlin for a while and I didn't know this person personally but I did know a lot of people that worked with him closely and I'd also been asked to join the Berlin pirates and I'm really happy I didn't say yes to that so this was quite a shock to us because we had known within the air party that there were some people who were having psychological issues and you kind of tend to hope that it just goes away and having a brutal murder of one of your teammates not only involving himself a suicide but on somebody else a completely innocent person was at least for me a pretty brutal wake-up call and I pushed pretty hard within the pirate party to have a counselor or at least somebody that you could go and talk to if there was something going on or if you suspected that somebody was not doing well the worst thing about this Berlin thing was that people had known that this person was carrying some mental issues with him for a long time and they asked him to leave but never had anybody really put his foot down and said listen you have a bit too much issues and it's dragging the rest of us down and it's actually becoming kind of dangerous so I really hope that I know there's a lot of people in our community struggling with depression, being bipolar etc etc and I really hope that we can have this conversation in a more serious matter talk to each other about what happens when you see that somebody is struggling and how to help them and also when you feel like maybe they're posing a danger to somebody else how do you handle this do you kick somebody in this case out of a political party or are you just happy with the volunteers you can get no matter how challenging they are to collaborate with alright last week a Dutch girl from the pirate party after a long battle with addiction drowned in the canal in Amsterdam and she was a very devoted volunteer for a party so this is an issue that's not going away and I think we should really not wait with this conversation alright that was a bit heavy-hearted sorry but I did have to throw that in we did a contest a couple of things we forced other political parties in our political campaign that they had to talk about digital rights or at least take a stand and a couple of parties jumped on that and I actually got a promise from one of the politicians from the other parties in 1966 that he was going to be the pirate in parliament so I'm keeping an eye on him and hoping that he lives up to his promise the party of animals all of a sudden started saying that they were the political party that was best for privacy rights and they were fighting hard for privacy rights as soon as they got elected they actually installed a law that said that in slaughterhouses there had to be cameras on employees always everywhere alright I'm all for animal rights and like all against animal abuse I find that absolutely abhorrent but there must be better ways to do that and we definitely raised awareness on these topics just to show that there were alternatives other parties out there that you could vote for that had new and fresh ideas so what now after five years I started in 2012 after five years of fighting the battle for freedom of information and digital rights I have some ideas on how to go forward and I'll share with you what I'm going to do with my life and hopefully inspire you to see what you can do in your life if you do find these topics important and you don't necessarily want to go down the exact same road that I've been going down so the solution is going forward when I first started there was a lot of talk about we should organize crypto parties and we should educate people I've really come to find that that is a battle that it cannot be won because simply programmers and consumers they do not speak the same language and there's not enough money going around in all these projects to add like good design or educating or like help desks etc etc so sure you can download PGP or like Thunderbird and implement encryption but then when you run into a problem and you're not a techie as a matter of fact maybe you don't even like technology it's just something that you just have to do to find your job, your kids and getting a mortgage and you don't know who to call or who to ask because none of your friends are using any of that either it becomes a real pain because you can't just go to your you don't always have the time to go to your local hacker space and say hey guys I have this little problem so I really find that easy to use tools that protect privacy for consumers with basically the click of a button that is up to us to develop we cannot ask users to simply put hours and hours of time into learning something that is probably not up their street and they may never truly understand information accessibility I really run into this with bits of freedom where people would call us just simply for information and for the longest time on Twitter like I felt like a live help desk like I would get so many questions I could literally I should have put up a Patreon account and just ask money for it but I didn't but I you can really tell like once people start to think about the topic of privacy and they want to do something about it they have so many questions so that is the thing taking care of each other making sure that we are doing well and also making sure that we have good guidelines on how to handle things that come on our path I'm going to say something that might be unpopular but I'm going to do it anyway I'm pretty not so pleased with the way Shah has handled the Jacob Applebaum story I find it a little bit too easy to spread rumors without any actual factual evidence and ban somebody completely from a community I find that when these accusations take place of sexual misconduct it's a very serious conversation that needs to take place but it shouldn't be one-sided you shouldn't be able to point a finger at somebody and say I don't like the way this person is behaving and then have them completely excluded from a community that they have contributed a lot to I don't think this is the right way to move forward because tomorrow it can be any one of us so I'd really like to ask the Shah commission to re-examine and re-evaluate their decisions in that part of community building trust so right now I'm a privacy advisor for StartPage.com which as I said I think is one of the solutions having super easy tools for consumers and I was totally surprised that StartPage has been around for 10 years and it's a really great alternative for just typing a search in Google it doesn't give you Google search results but it doesn't send all of your data to Google it's really as simple as just going to the web page just like you would do with Google and I'm so surprised that many people don't even know this exists so I'm going to work hard to change that for the next few years and I think there's definitely something like gateway tools like signal StartPage like very easy to use tools that make people feel like oh there are things I can do relatively easy to protect my digital information and it doesn't cost me any extra time or anything also I feel like the more products are out there they're easy to use and protect privacy that are privacy by design the bigger the chances that other companies will start doing the same and there will be some healthy competition on this topic building stronger communities I'm an advisor for I'm almost done I'm a privacy advisor for the Beehive Tech Campus in Arnhem which is on the other side of the Netherlands and this is a former panopticon prison which we are in the running for as basically a huge hacker community we really there's all these things in the circle here are those windows are all prison cells and they can be remodeled to be actually you're laughing at the irony of this aren't you yeah being in a panopticon prison and fighting for freedom that's basically our goal so all these former prison cells can be remodeled to have rooms to rent and in this way you can actually invite people from all over the world to collaborate for a couple of months on say privacy projects and have it be fairly low cost and build up a strong sense of community that doesn't only have the technical know-how but also carries over the ethics behind all of it if you'd like to know more about look up behive 42 and I'm working on my own information platform called OPEQ for OPEC because I feel like there's really necessity for having a central place where there's a lot of information around privacy and also offers a couple of solutions is just really get the conversation going and for people who have questions it's an easy place for them to go to I've been tweeting about this topic for many years but now of course all that information I mean it's out there but it's not archived so I'm hoping to work on a little bit more of an archive for the next five years offering fun solutions so there's actually some clothes and stuff that are for sale now I think I saw somebody here I think there you go with like a I don't know if that's like an RFID jacket I've seen them around where you can basically put your phone or your cards in your jacket and it offers an RFID protective layer so not to have your data stolen there's also like paparazzi scarves where you put on a scarf and it's decorated in a way that if there's a flash on it you can't see your face so people like creative people artists and designers are coming up with like some pretty innovative ways to fight things like facial recognition cameras so I really think that we should show that sometimes it can be fun to think about practical things that might appear boring at first sight and I'm really hoping to educate people about the fact that privacy is a lifestyle privacy is not like a button that you can click on and off it's like a thousand small decisions that you make every day when you go to the store and they ask you can I take your postal code do you say yes or do you say no when you take your children to school and they say oh we took a lot of fun pictures today and we put them on Facebook what do you say when you go to the doctor and they say are you okay with putting information in the electronic patient file are you going to say no or what do you do when you get a whole list of questions that are all very nuanced maybe it's like many questions a day that you need to have an answer to or at least should have thought about before so my talk started with be smart, safe and happy and I really like that we go into a future where we we keep human rights values within a technological realm and we don't see the separation between technology technology and and human rights I also think that we're going increasingly into a world where everything is connected on the internet with the internet of things your files being stored digitally where the divide between real life and online is no longer there and I really hope that we find better ways to deal with using fun platforms and sharing economy without being a victim to the surveillance capitalism platforms I really think we need some strong European alternatives and I'm really happy with the new GDPR regulations in Europe that are taking place now and I hope it will bring some really strong financial incentives to come up with better solutions be smart being humble is usually the smart way to go because very often when we as a community try to educate people who are not as technically savvy they feel they already feel stupid for having to ask and for realizing that they don't know and they don't know that much about this topic so being really humble is absolutely key with this topic and you know trying to offer to help where you can and another tough lesson for me the past five years has been that I now really truly believe in focusing on the positive because everything you focus on grows bigger the more negativity you bring in your life the bigger it gets and I think it was Mother Teresa who once said that she was invited to anti-war protest and she declined and she said you know what if you name your protest a pro-peace protest I will join pro-peace march and I've slowly come to realize that there's some real truth in that like if you tell people Facebook is bad where are the alternatives what else are they going to do if they want to keep in touch with family overseas so I hope we can really focus our energy on positive alternatives until they get so big that we just don't need all that stupid survey shit anymore and be happy because hey you only live once or maybe not we'll find out eventually but you're here and it's important to have fun otherwise we're not going to last and be okay with yourself that you're doing what you can and trying to make the right choices and helping where you can and you're not going to save everybody or maybe not going to accomplish all the goals that you have in mind but it's really really hard to be able to look at yourself in a mirror it's really important to look at yourself in a mirror and be able to say I really did my best to fight for something that I believe in so thank you very much yeah well you can ask me questions now or find me on Twitter if you're shy but I don't bite any questions from the audience or suggestions for Antela? I think they're all tweeting now we're like hi it's Erika from New York so having worked in the not quite mainstream media for the past 10 years I can't imagine what a horror show it must have been having to deal with them for something that your career depended on so I wanted to ask you what can legitimate journalists do who are less and less in the mainstream media but still here what can we do to help with digital rights activism globally? yeah from my point of view fighting for a really important cause being in the prior party and being completely ignored by the mainstream media it makes you pissed really I kind of had a hunch before I started the whole project worse than I it was so blatant so rude I mean it was just insane I had to work next to those people for years on the other hand I don't want to bitch too much about it because I do realize that a lot of genuine well meaning journalists are really trying hard and are on insane deadlines smaller and smaller pay free lands, no job security etc etc so I realize that journalists are also really having a hard time I think we have an opportunity right now where if you are genuinely doing a great job your work will be seen there are some platforms some technological platforms in development which I think you know all about so I think technology is part of the solution and right now we live in very interesting times where you can't actually set up your own donation platform and literally ask people to donate for your article if they find it valuable and that is of course an opportunity that journalism has never had before and I think in the end it will probably kill large titles and I hope more power to small journalists who are really sticking their neck out to bring a good story ask for money anyone else we have a winner hi I'm Kace you touched upon a problem I would summarize as herding cats I think it's a big thing in hacker community also in open source lots of competing projects trying to do the same thing I think with Pirate Pata you have a unique challenge there and you told a little bit about it but maybe you can tell a bit more do you have any tips on how to do that yeah so I did briefly touch upon it unfortunately I can't really elaborate right now but there's a very interesting system called Holark Holarchy Holacracy Holacracy and I actually went to a course to learn how to set this up and I think the basis of Holark Holarchy is that you make people accountable not for the person it's really really important to see the person separate from the function that they're doing so that when you when they're doing something wrong or something goes right you can talk to them in their function instead of talking to them as like your hankie and I don't like you personally that's not the case is your hankie and you are on press on the press phone and you're really doing a shitty job of course you should pose it more politically correct than I'm doing right now which might explain why I didn't make it as a politician but it's really that's really I think the key and also you know as a community you need to be strong and you need to really just have the balls to tell somebody but you're just not doing a good job and usually the worst part is usually these people who are occupying a space that they're really bad at are really good at other things so they're not only are they occupying a space doing something they suck at they're not doing the thing they're great at so it's a complete waste of their talent and their resource cool yeah I'm implementing all that courtesy of my company I think it's great for organizing existing groups yeah exactly well hopefully you can do some talks on that and like because I think we really as a community within a prior party but also just activist groups we really need it thanks I think it would be great to have a talk about that anyone else in the audience have a question or suggestion for Anzilla can I have a warm welcome applause then please