 Parks and Recreation Advantage Award, can you please start with a roll call? Erin Angel. Here. Scott Conrad. Here. Thomas Davis. Here. Paige Ruiz. Here. Sam Levy. Here. Nick Osmonello. Here. And the company has a lunch on the court as well. She's here to help. Okay. It's a good call. You want it? Yeah. Thank you, Paige. You want it? Yeah, I'm just taking a picture. You thought it was a U. Yeah, and got a gallery. Yeah, it's a lot of gallery. Yeah, it makes it feel a little... It's like gallery is over your shoulder. Yeah. So first up on the agenda is approval of the agenda. Before we just approve the agenda, just want to note for the new business section, there was an intent of discussing the intent of 20 kind of employment projects, but there were some more urgent updates and decisions that we need to make, and that's why the agenda got moved around the way it did. So with that caveat, does anyone have any amendments they'd like to make to the agenda? Okay, no discussions there. So if not, then all in favor of the... Is there a motion to approve the agenda? I don't know if to approve the agenda. And we do the second one, so... All in favor? And we have Sam, virtual... Yeah, cool. Okay, awesome. Okay, moving on to approval of previous month's minutes. So for the previous month, there was one minor that we want to make about the attendees, specifically that Jeff was not present. Outside... Ben was. Ben was. Outside of that, does anyone have any modifications to the previous month's minutes like a flag? Do we have that... Do we have anyone have that list of... Oh, let's have... Everyone was here last month. Everyone. I mean, everyone. Yeah, we think we can... We'll add that to the list. Okay. Yeah, David can help us. Yeah, that was my only note about the minutes is that it was... Okay, so... You mean in terms of substance or...? Well, in terms of each of the presentations. Anything specific that you'd like to call out? No, I don't. I just... Presentation slides. We can do that. No, we can. Yeah, good point. I just want to say thank you to all of you supervisors who made it about to happen, and gave them time to be there, and hopefully we're all about paid, and also we all fit past these things. Because that was my favorite meeting we've had so far. I think this part is important to know, just really knowing things clearly. It's all good. Yeah, I think there's definitely one on that. Okay, with that being said... Are there any...? Yup, Sam? I've got David in his hands here, I realize. Alright, I'm going to have the same comment as David. Unfortunately, I really can't hear anything you guys are saying. David, are you hearing it all? Yes, and say, whatever Nick is doing, I think how word he's projecting, I can hear Nick okay, but anyone else, he would page sitting close to right in that here. So Nick's above that. I will say I am intentionally speaking louder. I'm trying to... For me, it's working out a little bit for Sam, but... You know, I can hear Nick, but it's going to be hard to hear Jeff, for example, or anybody else. It is too hard to do it remotely. I'll just drop back. I feel like the room must be better equipped than what we're hearing right now. Or else no one's ever done a virtual meeting in the room. No, but we have... It's just my co-difficulties in this room constantly. Yeah, I can barely hear the... I wonder if it's coming through... It's coming through the camera now. So, yeah, so... So either the last thing that we've done before that sometimes works is actually going to cover that area. Yeah, like, get out of the room. That is... We're going to take a brief time out here. It's coming through the camera mic, and we need to try and get it off of that. So we're going to go out and come back in... And we can't do it this way? So I'm looking at the audio set in my room. Yeah, in this room, you can swap to a different mic. Look at the J-Lab. This is the wrong mic, isn't it? They're the ones that didn't work. They did work last time, though. We just tried it. Does it hear us? Can you hear us? Yeah, I'm not sure about that. Craig, can you hear us now? It's hard to hear you all before. Can you hear us now? Just unplug it and play it as it is. Okay, let's try that. Can you hear us? Yeah, much better. Thank you. Alright. I think there's something wrong. So, approval of previous month's minutes. Does anyone make a motion to approve the previous month's minutes as amended with the additional name changes for the attendees? We'd like to move that way to approve the minutes to include a link to the presentation. Otherwise... All in favor? Alright, so we have put it on that. Good call on page. Thank you for reminding me. Okay, moving on. Public invite to be heard. I think we do have public invite to be heard. So just share your name and your address and then I'll deliver it to you. Okay. Hi, my name is Sherring Lloyd, 1632 Sherman Way and Longmont Residence since 1987. I'm here to speak to the issue of the Fourth of July fireworks display. I'm strongly opposed to the option to have the fireworks set off at the city's property I'm modeling with viewing at the Dickens Nature area. After the Times Call article about moving a fireworks display from Fox Hill to this location, several people expressed concerns to City Council about the negative impacts on Dickens open space. Our open space master plan specifically says open space is for passive use only. 8 to 10,000 people is not passive use. In addition to comments at City Council, there were several negative comments published in the Times Call at the TC lines. The issue is not where the fireworks will be set off, but where the spectators will watch, as Dickens Nature area. That's protected open space. We invested over four million dollars in taxpayer money at Dickens including planting native plants, flower shrubs, trees and stalling irrigation. There has been huge irrigation problems there and all the vegetation has continued to struggle to be well established. It's compromised already. Most of the trees have died. As you know, our St. Frank's Creek is the focal point of this open space. This sensitive riparian area is essential habitat for a variety of birds, raptors, fish, amphibians, pollinators and other wildlife, which depend on this riparian area for water, shelter and food. 90% of all wildlife depend on riparian areas for survival at some point in their lives. Concentrating 8 to 10,000 people trampling the land with beef, dogs, parks, wagons, strollers, bikes, sparklers, trash and other food waste, ground fireworks like fountains and other loud explosive fireworks will cause tremendous damage for an already challenged area and being currently disrupted for wildlife. It's inevitable plastic and other pollutants will be formed in the creek. Our St. Frank riparian greenway is a jewel and she and the wildlife she supports deserve better. And as being safety is also an issue. There is certainly no connection to local neighborhoods or residential housing which will force the vast majority of speculators to use their cars to head to Dickens open space. There is very limited parking at Dickens and along Boston which means people will have to park at the two shopping centers along 119 and across 287. The Best Buy parking lot cannot accommodate 8 to 10,000 people. So many will park by Lowe's or cross 287 by McDonald's forcing people to cross 119 and 287. Both these streets are very busy, very wide and unsafe crossing especially after dark. This high traffic area normally has almost no pedestrian traffic so drivers will be caught on guard. Not everyone will use the traffic lights which will exacerbate pedestrian danger. The fireworks the fairgrounds worked until 2020 when Boulder County wouldn't allow it that year due to COVID. Fox Hill was tried with very real parking and viewing challenges. Again, the fairgrounds worked swell with multiple access and viewing spots including Rogers Grove, Happy Lobby Park and Lowe's Home Depot and Target Neighborhoods to the North and West and Sunset Golf Course. The dispersed viewing locations really both parking and traffic nightmares with hundreds of people not needing their cars at all. The fairgrounds makes the most sense. If the issue is that Boulder County is difficult to work with then perhaps it's time to do some relationship for building. After all, the fairgrounds fall well within Longmont property lines and we should be able to utilize this property for one event annually. Finally, moving this or additionally moving the symphony and picnic to Dickens nature areas is impractical and also not done without impacts to the land. If Thompson Park has become too small Roseville Park is a great location. It is way more accessible than Dickens for musicians hauling their instruments and for picnickers too. Similarly, the city has a well established template for events at Roseville with stages, power, etc. Plus, Roseville is close to businesses for sandwiches, ice cream coffee and adult beverages. I do like the city's plan to include drones this year for people to get a sense of that. Hopefully people will embrace the drones and we can move forward eventually replacing fireworks displays with drones, with drone shows sometime in the future. While I and most people really like fireworks there is no denying the harm caused to people, pets, and wildlife. By the way, the 2002 Open Space and Master Plan clearly identifies activities the community believes are acceptable and those that are not of open space, defining passive recreation. Fireworks was specifically identified as a five of the public comment that indicated it was not acceptable on open space. Please do not support this option to exploit our Dickens National Area of Protected Open Space. Instead, please make a recommendation for City Council to direct staff to pursue the fairgrounds for fireworks and Roseville Park for the Symphony, Concert, and Pages. Thank you. Thank you for that. Appreciate your input on that. We do have an agenda and we're ready to dive into the event. So we'll discuss it at that time. We're two agendas and it comes away, but we're almost there. Okay. That's it for probably going to be heard. Right? So we will move into this is the first update discussing the recreation increases in budgets. So Jeff, you're going to help us. Ben's going to help us with this one. Okay, we have this one on the last time. The sheet for your guys packet is in there. It shows what the fees are planning for. Right now, we're targeting May 15th. Trying to fit it in with the brochure and on time to be out and on time to plan for it. But before summer activities actually start recruiting something. This is due to a budget situation in recreation where currently there is not enough budget to get through the rest of the year. We need to get to a situation where we can appropriate some dollars and this will take us towards that. That being said, we have had some forward movement as far as response for our treasury about where we're at with the budget. Jeff, do you want to talk about that meeting a little bit? No. Okay. So, the where we're at with that right now is we do have some plans. One of the let me back up. So, I think one of the things that is really important for everybody to know is the financial policy that requires recreation to recover 80%. That excludes at risk programming free community events and capital over $5,000. Everything else that we spend has to be recovered at that 80%. So, in 24, we have a budgeted revenue of $4,125,000 and expenditures of this a little over $6 million. And so, for us to be able to get to a place where we're able to start spending our appropriating money, we have to bring in another almost $600,000 before we can get any advantage of that to help us with expending our expenditures. And part of the challenge of that is that costs have gone up so drastically over the last four years. In 2020 we compared to our budget today just for wages for recreation it's gone up over $927,000 with really no additional services to any of our community. And so, we have to get in a place where we're getting more people to participate in our programs and to be able to bring in more money to be able to pay bills at the end of the year. So, Ben is proposing the fee increases and I'll let you talk more about that. But cost recovery is really the driver of what sets what we can and can't do in recreation. One of the things that Ben referred to a meeting that I was at is that in general the city administration agreed for recreation to make two proposals yet this year. One is to increase our scholarship program from $100 per person to be able to go to $300 per person that's generally for everybody 17 and younger. And we would like to include that to include people with disabilities. And then the second item would be to review the cost recovery program which hasn't been looked at since 2008. Cost recovery at that time went from 70% to 80%. The city was really in economic downturn. And so recreation generally over the years I think Ben would agree with this. That as the economy tends to go down recreation has a bigger appeal within our community that people aren't as able to travel and are still looking for things to do. So we would look at trying to drop that back down to 70% or look at things that could possibly be excluded like access to the outflow pools. One of the things that we would look at so that as many of the kids and people in our community can access those pools during months for the scholarship program itself to get credit for the amount that we do which we're rebuilding that program now but for years that was around $70,000, $75,000 worth of programs. So we got some credit for doing that and there are a few other things in there that we want to look at. So we've got a package to bring this all together and put it into a place where we can pay the bills. We do expect the increase that's proposed that we're planning on for the rest of the year. A raw festival to be $200,000 and then for a full year. I don't think they can hear you as well as they can hear Jeff. I don't think we're going to move the microphone. I don't think it'll move. It's a short course. I'll try to project this right a little bit better. We're going to leave that time. Do you want to go into any detail on the budget? Well in general as far as the fees and you guys have had this it's a standard how we do a standard increase which is about 10% and then everything is equalized to make sense from the daily drop in so that we have so that the numbers work so that the passes relate to each other if you pay for a year it's a better deal. So there's a program that we kind of have in place to do that. That's how those came around and then we have a general directive to staff for programs to raise those 10% and there's some flexibility there because there are other factors that the program's brand new it's just getting started and we don't want to impact that if it's rolling and very successful that's where we certainly would. Sports in particular subject to market and in particular among that adult sports so you really have to you can't just up softball like $200 for example or folks who will just go somewhere else easily know that. So that's the basis of where these numbers come from so any questions? Let's start with the discussion and move into kind of next steps. Sam if you have an item that you would like to raise I'll start with you. If you do, if not then it's fine. Thank you for asking no questions to this. Anybody else? Paige? So I struggle with this I mean you know I'm a huge supporter of recreation and at the same time I feel like this is just a further pricing people out of recreation and I know that that is not what you want and you guys are working with the system you're given but you know when we were doing the ballot initiative I heard from a lot of people that they already came for the rec center I can't say the cost it is for a family to be a member of the rec center and I feel like that's what we want the recreation facilities for is to be accessible to families to be as accessible as possible to as many citizens as possible and at the same time I don't think the city is setting you guys up for success like government because the city council they're not necessarily upgrading facilities so that may cause you to lose people and you have problems with that ice rink so you couldn't maximize recovery with people going there during the season so I really feel like the city should be looking before they ask you to make another fee increase like months after the last fee increase they should be looking at changing that recovery rate and how they can better enable more citizens of Long Island to have access to the works and without having to keep raising fees Any gauge? I have two questions just in general How does the 80% cost recovery compare to It's higher I have ad hoc information the problem we're in when we do this in the past is that it's apples and oranges at times so what's covered, what's in there what is it but in general what I have found our cities are between 60 75% Lafayette for example is 75% but they're not held to that there's nothing they're actually held to so it's just a guideline for columns 70% models at 65% and again I want to emphasize that there are things in each one that would be different so an actual apples to apples is a challenge I certainly haven't heard of anybody who's adding 80% or above it that's when you do feel like at this point that's high and then how are non-resident rates established how does that represent rates established by council and will it represent 45% 25% 25% it has that compared to you'll see that and you'll not see it it's varies by city a lot of cities have residents rates some don't it varies so the general perception which we already know is out there because other times party taxes are through the roof so it must be a clash of a ton of money why why do we have the dissipation that some cities have gone up 20% in a few years and we still have a budget problem well I don't know that everybody would consider that we have a budget problem within recreation specifically that I think that the belief is that the budget was based on the policy and recreation is trying to find ways to work within that to think if changes are going to happen it wouldn't happen until the 25th budget is part of that issue if we don't raise rates we're going to have to look at other ways to reduce our costs and how to do some things that in my opinion is even worse than regular fees does a 10% increase in fees though already priced you out you're trying to both increase number of participants and increase fees that it goes against the supply and demand and so I think that's just aspirational and operational sort of thing so is there a forecast if you raise your prices 10% you will use 12% of people coming in our history here and this would be the shortest time that we raise so I don't have a record or something like that but that has never happened our usage has never gone down and current usage just the rec center is added above where we talked about that being 1021 I mean there are 3 reparations in terms of the rec center at the certain times of the day we go at 455 the cost of business has just gone way up anybody goes out to eat you didn't notice how much more fees cost and when you have a division that has a cost recovery requirement our costs have to our expenses go up so our revenue where we charge has to go up as well hey business city policy and city Jews to reduce your cost recovery do some are made from that cost recovery yes but that can only be done by city council and again if we reduce our cost recovery there is an expense that will go with that it isn't just that we lower our fees that somewhere in the general funds can be less money that can be used to fund other things that's recreation or other part kind of things because right now we put in 23 we generated roughly 4.2 million in revenue if we reduce the cost recovery that would go down which then would have an impact in other areas of the city and you know if they might be able to backfill but that's the there is a cost to lower I'm getting the feeling that the revenue has come up and that maybe we're all thinking that money should be there and it could come from other places and we'd like to see that if I'm not speaking for the board two months that's kind of what I'm gathering I know I'm priced out of I mean I like really think about it like okay can I do five things while I'm at the rec center because I'm not just going to go and swim you know because it's money you know what I mean so right it is a thing I'm also wondering if it's in the cost recovery that we have to accept for free events have we thought about making lots of things free community events like maybe yoga classes free community event just labor free community event you know I don't know just to get around it I think I don't know but I think the money is there I can't respond to that yeah I don't know and council or city manager may have other priorities but I I think we would be if we wanted to test a yoga in the park and do it for free I think we could do that but to purposely try to circumvent the policy I think there would be some feedback people would be a little frustrated I I I get that and those accounts that don't recover also have their own budget too so the future events budget is a specific budget so if we try to put something in there there's no money okay I okay that makes sense I get that but I look at the library can't when I worked at the library they can't they are literally not allowed to do cost recovery even if there's a family that says can I pay $5 for this like this is how they do they cannot do any cost recovery yet recreation which is also essential has to do 80% it seems really unbalanced budget to me that it would be like that I'm not saying I'm necessarily against raising the fees but I'm just bringing those things up and I think the last thing we should do is bring salaries down I like already our recreation stuff I mean even with the raises we know that a lifeguard has lives in their hands and that they deserve like a real wage because they're like doing actual life-saving work and things like that so we shouldn't reduce and we shouldn't reduce that staff I think that's the most important thing to me I'm glad you're referring to that because that was the point that I was going to raise you mentioned you mentioned the implication of we don't do this because actually now we're raising fees we have to make some cuts having thought about what those cuts might be at this stage in terms of staff programs really get a sense of what that really would look like I know it's a hard question to answer but well we've thought of some but they haven't been well received probably worse than this conversation here yeah I really feel like we're a bit of a chicken or the egg kind of thing and I heard the concern about raising fees but I don't see that we have really a choice at this point until we can get a proposal during the budget process to the city council to be able to revisit the cost recovery and are there things like outdoor swimming pools that could be excluded from that cost recovery whether youth programs maybe adults still have to and I'm spitballing here so none of this is adults might be in a better place to pay than what some of the kids are we've talked about do we open all the pools outdoors and that was one that was not received well but there are pools that view better than others and we have three outdoor pools not opening one and driving the used to the other two was something we talked about but we won't be moving forward with that so we have to look at other ways to do this revenues were very good last year they were almost $400,000 ahead of what was budgeted I do think that the administration is acknowledging that whether you're at 80% or 77% $400,000 is still a good number and maybe that's the direction we had is try to make sure we keep bringing in more money that's what's budgeted and work with them to still allow us to raise some additional funds just to give you an example of how difficult the wages are in 2019 at the rec center we had $788,000 budgeted in temple ages in 2024 we have $24,000 and actually spent over $900,000 last year because part of our challenge is that in the 2021 budget recreation was not bringing in money or much money because of COVID so our budget was cut by $1.1 million so as money was being added to temple ages you know let me back up a second the 1.1 was the equivalent of cutting 25% of our budget except in the areas of regular employees and the matching benefits so that means the rec center budget was cut for temple ages by the 25% so every time money was added over the years since then it was 25% short of what we really needed and so we're having to find ways to save money in other areas of the budget to be able to spend the money in the temple ages what do we need to it's out of balance yeah so we're going to be really out of this pitch so you need to it's got to be sorry this end of the table is solid where does this to the thanker was I feel like stuck between a right and a wrong place I'm sure you guys do too because I just I fundamentally believe that the city is just under investing in recreation and they're forcing you guys into an impossible position and negatively impacting the public by continuing to raise rates I mean it just raised at the beginning it was like six months ago February 1st February 1st February 1st yeah but I just fundamentally think the city should be investing more in recreation and prioritizing making it accessible to you know people with lower incomes having a slight in scale you know some way to address accessibility and this just feels like a band aid that's going to make the public frustrated you know because they've already said things are too expensive and now they're going to have a negative connotation of recreation and I don't know how to send a message to city council but this is not okay that we are the parks and recreation advisory board the city is under investing in recreation it's not okay so I don't want to negatively impact you guys because you guys are doing the best that you can but I also don't you know I don't think that this continue to increase the answer I believe last year we were talking about this exact issue with the whole missing new quarter in July about it is there no I'm sure we talked that off air and towards the end of it is there no recovery like claws or anything like that that you guys can get back and get yourself back into normal with that budgetary depth that you're still running there is a cost to that that the commitment was that once we started bringing in more revenues that we would be able to appropriate that money to be able to spend it the challenge is we have to get to the 80% recovery before we can take advantage of that and again at the end of last year we were 77, 78% their dollars so that $400,000 based on the 80% we had no benefit from bringing in that extra money basically what I think I hear tonight is that we need to move up our scholarship conversation sooner with council and at least get the information in front of council about cost recovery so as we go into the 25 budget they're aware of the challenges that we have I think that and then I like what Dave said every word of it was what I meant to say but she says better and really with emphasizing the whole idea of I know it's complicated but looking into sliding scale because the people that we need at the most and their kids just won't go swimming that day they didn't plan today because they're working both jobs today they're not planning today to get the scholarship for the summer and the people that get the scholarships are the people that are on it and they're the people that are connected and that have somebody helping them connect and things like that I see there's just more than two long months there's more and more people that are affluent coming to Longmont it's apparent because there's people in the restaurants and I'm like how can you I don't even understand how you can go to a restaurant on Tuesday so there's more people who are affluent and there's more people who are impoverished and there's more people that are just kind of struggling like not quite in the poverty line but probably in the Boulder County poverty line they don't even know how to access things like scholarships and things like that and no matter how much you advertise it it's still going to be a lot for the people that need it the most it's a lot for families to apply for a scholarship to get this free I don't know the answer but a sliding scale and I don't know the answer how you would do that and make it easy it's complicated but there's got to be an answer and somebody's probably doing it because all around the nation communities are like this right now you know just as a PowerPoint mention that there's a soft detail it's not a hard number but that some communities aren't held as strictly to their recovery percentages or is there a reason why the long one has to be as strict or is that just a city council it's a city it's at one point and for many years the city reparations did very very well just my experience being in lots of rec centers over the years I can tell you the run here it's as busy as you will find in the farm range it just is we were doing very well when I started and so it was never an issue we were always running between 85 and 95% up to as much as 95% and so when it's not an issue you don't worry about it there's flexibility within the budget here to be able to add things so this is a very new situation for us I guess other cities have faced it and face it in different ways and so just for the perception of this is a little bit more of a macro goal for the whole thing but is it a 5 year, 10 year type thing that we're still going to pursue another rec center or that's just kind of tabled until sorry I think it's certainly something we might approach again yeah I just didn't know we discussed that here in this group and in our groups when we talk about that you certainly don't have a timeline but absolutely I guess it wasn't so much as to set a timeline I was just more for the perception of the public asking for more money in this particular way you guys being forced to ask for more money in this way after the public kind of lambasted the idea of having a new rec center is there does anyone see that as a kind of a perception issue towards we have to raise money now for a facility that we can't even maintain well it's not for I can understand how far is perception yeah just it wasn't the hard idea the more point of view right now it's the division not the division it's entirely so we were down to number sorry $27,000 at the end of last year we gave you an example of a something $9 million budget we were down to that much and it's in the wrong accounts so I spent two months with finance trying to find money to put into the right little accounts to pay Visa cards just to pay our bills day to day we got there but we know this year will be really works we know that because last year there were things we still didn't have open at the beginning of last year everything is open in full speed right now and so we know that and there were raises for staff and we would we would give them money we would like to utilize for raises for temp staff it's really rough and we can't try to appreciate those folks because they keep us open and we're choosing society and it's great to pay books I think that's great but there's cost well 80% was arbitrarily plucked from the tree of thing 80% does not have to stay plucked it's my message to council it doesn't they made it they can change it they made that goal they can change it which is great because speaking of this is a great discussion I think I want to move into the action what are we going to do about this what's the next steps I would love to make some type of recommendation to the council tonight as a board on that of course there's some different ideas on what that might look like so I think maybe what we're going to do is just to do a roll not an actual vote just a strong pull on what we think the focus of the recommendation should be and then move from there how does that sound so let's just do it informally how many people here on the board would be interested in making motions related to the fee change itself as the focus of the recommendation to city council just for the record council does not have to approve the fee change we have that authority delegated to us for recreation I did not know that actually that changes a lot actually it's a unique thing but with how often we have to set fees there's no way we could be going to council all the time to be able to adjust on their set so that is designated to Ben and I I see, okay, so this we're going to just be seeing staff then okay so then the alternative then would be some recommendations related to the just cut check related to the recovery target and making some recommendations to city council to modify the recovery target as an action would be interested in pushing that forward just as a gut check I have a question for you so if you you have the authority to approve the fee increase but you don't have authority to not meet the financial target right, city council would have to somehow say like we are going to give you relief from this requirement and allow you to spend these funds that are sitting there that you can't spend them because you haven't reached the I believe that that I don't have the authority to appropriate funds until we hit the 80% I believe that to be true and maybe what we do is next month we come back with some proposals for cost recovery things that we could present to you and then based on your recommendations that's what we could take to council okay so not making recommendations this evening on the after recovery portion of it but I think it was the one thing I guess would like an informal vote on if I could is yes thumbs up or thumbs down on fee increase yeah we can also that can be formal actually we could still have informal and then make it formal I mean I like it formal first because people can change their minds based on conversation okay so informally not as an actual motion but would be in saver of the fee increases as proposed yeah yeah but it's like the only thing that can happen like to stay afloat so we have to just be paid sorry I think it's on the app as I saw Sam's hand it's worth noting because these guys have been put in that position it's kind of like when you talk to a doctor that your insurance gets to pick what yeah it's very similar yeah so that's kind of the so I kind of just want to wondering what would happen if we had passed a resolution that requested the same council to be in the new recreation services department and instead allow you to spend a couple I mean is that a possible thing though like we ask council to consider that is that I think it's worth it correctly whether that's due or not and if we were to do that would we be able to hold off the fee increases until that would be decided on by the next city council meeting question for you the timing is wrong the timing is wrong the brochure is in production and it has to be in there it goes out here in two or three weeks and literally tomorrow okay well we have options here where we can take this is there anyone that wants to make a motion for the fee increases regarding the fee increases to city staff council as defined in the packet there have to be rules no pressure no there's rules I would like to move to for the fee increase as recommended in the packet yeah I just want to know do you think that would weaken our case to push for the 80% relief they're like you're going to be fine because there's my opinion is I don't think it does I don't think it weakens it to be clear I've projected this out and the way we're set up now I don't know that we can do 80% again the way we're choosing to pay temporary staff I don't know that we can there would have to be another fee increase that this is we're going to be here we really don't see that as realistic to do another increase every year even with this one we don't quite get to 80% I don't think I still think we come up slightly short for a bright added to where there's no flexibility and part of I don't want this to come as a shot to city council or city administration because they've always been very supportive of recreation I think this is a timing thing where after so many years of it working after the reduction that it's catching up with us now and I think that city council they can be really criticized for this because I don't think they even know that this is an issue right now you were last one, councilor McCoy at the end when I rushed through a little bit of this he immediately said this is something we need to look at let's get this down to another level so his response last month on record I generalized the idea of support so I think that there is some understanding there I don't think even this hurts our case necessarily because it doesn't get us there for sure just one more thing just an idea perhaps we should just extend it because I think we've talked about this bringing options to the next meeting to what we would raise to city council for modifying 80% recovery whatever that might be we're reducing that to 75% what are the options that might come up with would it be helpful if we added that to the motion when will they be considering what would be time on record we'll present our budget requests in May for recreation for them to consider that deadline will be towards end of May for us to put in any options we would like to whatever we present to you the feedback you get move forward with what is presented to council with those options that you grant options to us that include a lower cost recovery you don't necessarily need a motion for that but but you can also of course if you want a motion for that there's no time but the hesitation I have is there was already a motion on the floor yeah yeah you're right please say you're right you're right Thomas yeah so again I would just like to approve the fees as presented in the packet we have a second I okay all those in favor all right we have five we got all those all those opposed yeah I apologize off my game today okay I think that wraps up for the discussion we can move on to the next agenda item next up is the proposed 4th of July event had taken part which would be a good one I'll start this off and we'll go from there so in January the city manager approached a number of city staff about the options for relocating the 4th of July out of Fox Hill to an area down by Dickens Park one of the main reasons for that request was to be able to have the fireworks shot from a piece of property that is owned by the city and that would be the fire training center just off of Martin and that way there is no issue with somebody coming into the fallout area the majority of it like what was an issue at the fairgrounds the fairgrounds had challenges where they would be shooting off the fireworks and people would be right there on top of them and totally unsafe to people that close so we as staff agreed to recreation staff agreed to come up with an event work with the Kiwanis to be able to move the event from Fox Hill the Kiwanis are still very interested in being part of the event they will fully fund the fireworks and then we are requesting $1000 to be able to do the event at Dickens Park the staff originally proposed to City Council that the event take place in the park just because of the time of year we were really criticized over the years about doing rhythm on the river in Roger's Grove and how hot it was already let alone doing it on Boston and how much heat could be instead of in the park we have known from the beginning of the park design is that it was really never intended to be a special event location the commitment that recreation parks had made internally was that it was going to be more of an open space passive recreation in not large events so council after the information was presented they asked us to come back to you all and talk to you about your thoughts about the event and what passive recreation meant to you as a board and how as it relates to open space so with that Danielle will talk a little bit about what passive recreation means to us based on the code and then Sam will talk about what our possible solution is to hopefully make it a win-win for everybody Danielle do you want to take it? yeah so like Jeff was saying for the City Council the definition of February 27 they want crowd to weigh in on does the proposed event that we're going to go through meet the definition of passive recreation so this is what we're going to guide you through now so one the proposal two understanding analyzing the two together so you can see in the coming slides there'll be slides that are talking about the proposal understanding slides that will help you understand the context and the slides where we talk about the proposed event as it pertains to the context that I'm going to lay out for you and then four is for you to discuss and decide so let's go through so up here in the corner you can see that this is the proposed event so when so first of all in terms of passive low impact recreation and what does it mean it's always project and site specific so it comes up for every county every municipality land manages parks and open spaces and so you have to look at each proposal differently so this we went through this process with the but rock management plan and this is something that David mentioned the city council but it was different we had different parameters we had a preserve that we were dealing with so that's why we want to look at each instance separately there are general definitions for passive recreation low impact recreation that you can find and we'll talk about that but then we're going to layer on the context so the proposed event or activity we want to look at all these pieces when we're thinking about passive low impact recreation the size and the magnitude of the event this one yeah do we want to so this is the event as it was proposed to council with the event in the park itself estimated attendance about 10,000 people Kiwanis they said they had about 4,500 people at Fox Hill so we're anticipating about double that attractions include food trucks beer garden, midway games stage with live music event infrastructure is the not so glamorous parts mobile toilets, trash dumpster that kind of stuff and then as far as duration it will be a 5 to 9 event once set up in strike happening same day it will be approximately 12 hours and then noise and light obviously with fireworks is pretty high also have ambient lighting and safety lighting and then so going through size and magnitude, duration and timing noise and light levels types of use is it consumptive or non-consumptive so non-consumptive would be like walking through a park a larger event like this is more than consumptive category because a lot of the things that Sam was just talking about there's lots of people the infrastructure and then types of impact I don't understand why this cut off so these are the types of things that we think about and we can come back to this if we need to are the impact types shorter long term are the temporary or permanent some of the things that could happen in a nature area wildlife disturbance, soil compaction we know a lot about the wildlife in Dickens Park nature area an increase in weed will definitely happen new social trails the riparian corridor is a concern so now understanding the context first to understand the context we're talking about a nature area our code defines nature area which we previously called district parks so you'll see it in both ways in the district park or nature area but in two different sections section 404 district parks are devoted to low impact recreational uses in section 13 nature area means a designation of public land providing access to an enjoyment of important natural historic and cultural resources and allow for limited low impact passive outdoor recreation uses that fit the unique natural characteristics of the particular area and then finally hours of use in nature areas the hours of public use shall be between one hour before sunrise and one hour after sunset and we just heard this is a 12 hour setup to strike so then continuing on with understanding the context we have various documents adopted plans and project work pertaining to this particular that speak to this particular nature area so Dickens Farm nature area is actually encumbered by a conservation easement that is held by Boulder County and along with that came a baseline report at the time that the easement was put in place we have system-wide plans that speak to what low impact passive recreation means why I keep saying low impact passive recreation is because those terms come out of the conservation easement and then we have some general definition in the open space master plan a bit of a definition in the parks recreation and trails master plan we also are golden to our wildlife management plans all these are adopted plans then we've got site specific plans Dickens has its own master plan there's the same greenway master plan because the greenway goes through this nature area and then there's the resource management and the project work that we've been doing at this particular nature area the Resilient St. Graeme project and so right now we've got all the native plantings are under warranty still so low impact passive recreation so this is coming out of the open space master plan so with low impact passive recreation the idea is minimal development preserving the wildlife and ecosystems minimizing environmental impact and emphasizing preservation minimal rules of engagement coordination or formal programming non-consumptive uses wildlife observation walking etc so in terms of and so now we've gone through understanding the context and then kind of analyzing the proposed event and the context we do have some commitments that we have to think about here we've talked about the parks and recreation and trails master plan and passive recreation but we have to acknowledge that City Council directed staff that with each open space the goal would be to have a conservation easement on it to protect the conservation values of that encumbered open space in perpetuity so we've got that direction and intent from Council and this does have a conservation easement on it and so then we've got the partnership and agreement with Boulder County who is the grantor of the conservation easement we are it is our job to uphold the conservation values that are laid out in the conservation easement and it's also our promise to the public and then number two open space sales and use tax so voters tax themselves to protect open spaces so it's our job to come to you and talk to you about you know the idea of passive recreation and protecting this nature area okay so now talk about the proposed site layouts do you kind of follow the logic so this is the option we just talked about the one that was presented to Council as for the attendee experience the best option and that's to focus sort of the footprint of the event on the manicure areas so down by the picnic shelter is where the stage would be on the pathways would be where the food trucks are this would be the ear garden and food truck area and then portable toilets here so that's kind of the more focus for from the event perspective centralized footprint grassy areas are cooler than on heartscape and we would provide shuttling only for attendees with mobility needs there's obviously a large impact in the nature area we would obviously be encouraging people to use the nature area after sunset and this was option two so this was City Manager kind of directed us to look at Boston Avenue as an alternative so that's just basically moving everything up to the street which is a fine footprint also the stage would be over on the east side of the street that was kind of lined up along the streets and then a ear garden kind of in this grassy area here and we would anticipate lots of foot traffic in this portable area and then the festival itself would start here with the closure and then this would be parking over on the west side could you show me with the stages? stages right there so people standing to look and it doesn't look like there's any place for anybody to watch people on stage well so the stage would be sort of pointed west so people would back up into the street to space the stage which is not ideal from up on one perspective here so we're looking directly into the sun but that's the best way to line it up so that they also have viewing of the fireworks the fire training is over in this area here and this red circle is the fireworks fall out of them so we don't have to control this so that people don't enter that kind of fireworks so the stage would be the natural end point of the festival okay I'm going to touch them in here then so usually the symphony was like early in the day and then we were talking about stage later in the day right before fireworks so the symphony would move to when they got sent up I think really clearly exist and going back to a little bit of history the symphony approached us this winter or they don't want to say December or before talking about the possibility of using Roosevelt rather than Compton Park our recommendation to them at that time was it's really going to be hot there's no shelter there's no shade as opposed to Compton Park with all the great trees so stay there well a week later find out that Compton Park can be worked on so the general plan is for them to go back to Roosevelt this year and this year only not considering this at all separately we're told tasked with coming up with this plan and our general thought and the general plan nothing to finalize yet because we have to get from A to B is to have the symphony do their concert during the day probably at Roosevelt Park this year if they do it this year and then play during the fireworks at the fireworks so if the Roosevelt Park thing had never come up this year they would just be doing their concert at Compton as they generally have and that would be fine I think that's where the confusion so what we are proposing and what they're currently planning on is two concerts during the day what are they doing they're applying under city they had we for a number of years have been trying to work for them playing in lawn mower during the fireworks trying to find the location that worked out so that's that makes sense to me we are we as a staff are very committed to the Compson event we feel like the folks that attend that event are really not the same people that are going to come to fireworks at 9.30 I have a question sorry I was trying to jump in yes okay it's a little hard to hear everything maybe this is already asked but on the Thompson and the sympathy question are we quite sure that the construction of Thompson will start before the fourth it seems like it's been extending out and might start after that it would be a shame to move them that actually not be starting construction until August for example we're on schedule so design documents we're going to award in May and we anticipate construction starting in June okay so everything points at it being closed in July okay thanks what did so sorry so just on the Boston footprint the footprint is more compact which works a little bit better for like way services and that kind of stuff easy shuttle access it will be have your shuttle just because from heart destruction which is going to be the majority of parking up to Boston is a little bit further along there's going to be lots of heart state which the event infrastructure will sit on and there should be minimal impact to the nature area from the event infrastructure obviously the comms are going to be heat it's going to be hot and from the attendee experience perspective in Boston Avenue when you're walking up from the parking lot at Carlos Junction so you really have to know where you're going so you need to activate a little bit along the trail so that people know where they're going more shuttling and the same use of the nature area so this is the compromise that we came up with that we feel like fits everyone's needs the best which is to have the festival on Martin Street along the bridge and fence off the areas to encourage people to stay out of the nature area after sunset so Martin Street has better views both from the parking lot and from the mountains you can look over the major area from there and activation along the street makes flow much better and it still has the stage to be up here facing south and once we fill in this way and along the bridge here along the east side we would do the food vendors the carnival games all of that stuff here would be the beer garden and folks would walk up this is Harvest Junction so they would walk up from the south and the festivities would be easily visible as they're walking up so they know exactly where they're going and this would help keep people out but we wouldn't have to shuttle anyone so we would just designate a close area of Harvest Junction as ADA accessible parking and it's the best compromise between attendee experience and protection of the major area the only con is obviously going to be the beef but it's going to be July so there's no point in thinking about that so we would like to hear your feedback about passive recreation means your feedback on the three locations and if you believe I guessed the third option it really becomes a normal win-win what I would just say is that public safety has really emphasized that they feel like this location is better than the fairgrounds and better than Fox Hill that they feel like there are less safety issues and I can't talk specifically about them but that's what they've indicated to us yes so for all three well they don't really share about where it goes it's just the location and they feel like it's easier than control traffic here than here at Fox Hill the you know that I'll tell you that the Qantas have made it very clear that they don't want to go back to the fairgrounds and that they wouldn't so my thought is that it's here or it goes back to Fox Hill again the city is the city council's decision maker but they really want your feedback on the passive part then by moving it and option three is that address those concerns can I just back up the second who directed Dickens on part as the area city manager he didn't necessarily say the part he believes that the part could be used for events he preferred or recommended for the Boston Boston Street access and we've kind of been as staff that do organize events we really feel that art service in July is not the best place to go but understanding that that we would be and this is just me talking I believe that I couldn't in a straight phase go before city council and tell them that having 10,000 people in an open space property is really how it was outlined to be I don't think that's appropriate David, sorry yeah I think I can maybe help the board there hold in the board Jeff perhaps definition of passive recreation and low impact I think Dan held it really a job of letting out those definitions we have throughout I think for me is really looking at which way the options is the most consistent for those definitions as we go forward so with respect and uphold those definitions of low impact and passive recreation so I know we have some other groups so there are definitions of passive recreation and I think again as staff we have some pretty clear guidelines for conservation easements for the bond language to develop the language that we have those definitions I think the the subjective part is is it consistent with this use that Daniel talked about high space locations so that's what this is kind of making I want to delve into that can you go back to your definitions all the songs that I have brought forward and I have brought them to be closer to my house which this would be however just looking at this I know in the impact of large public events like that including all the good jobs and the extra besides just people coming to watch the fireworks which is based on my experience working on distribution I don't think these kind of events are consistent with what is described as low impact passive recreation people particularly the first two I don't know that area well enough to comment on the third option and that may work but I think anything that causes that kind of impact to what is essentially a prairie ecosystem be in the middle of summer when it's going to be drought stressed you know, riparian systems that you're still trying to get to re-establish I think if you have a bunch of people wandering through there that's going to be a little bit much it's going to be stress to wildlife and frankly I really would be worried about the fireworks I mean the grasslands dry that seems really scary to me honestly so just for me this would not I mean in general this kind of event I don't think that nature area was intended for this kind of event because it's a nature area now whether that third option works or not it may I would probably look more deeper to say whether you guys think that so I don't know if you talked to Boulder County about whether they would agree that this that's the conditions of the incident we talked to Boulder County about the entire all the options so maybe the option or you said option if you really could keep all the impacts away I mean probably some stuff you know we would say not less sense in the nature area we would still want to fence out and do crown control such that we are abiding by the hours of use of the nature area well you can't get there from Martin right there from Boston does it fence from Martin otherwise you could probably I mean are you saying I think you can't get not directly not north of the bridge but well is there a path right before the there was like because I run it like there's a path from that bridge down to the trail on the creek like yeah so you can go there like and I mean at Boston or at Harvard or at Boston not just right just not good but maybe I've been on a social trail but I haven't noticed a social trail there's a ditch and there's a fence and there's a good bifurc fence that runs along that so I see two hands up I mean David at first then Sam was up next David did you want to say something just Dan since I spoke once already so I can understand that Sam? Thank you I think this question was just asked but I couldn't hear I'm sorry in this option 3 scenario you're suggesting that there would be no access from Martin to the greenway intentionally there'd be a fence there but you could still access the greenway from the west finish up get down there how would you keep people from spreading anywhere to watch the fireworks I mean people are going to be this is what I would do this is what I'm like I'm in a good place to watch the fireworks it's going to be from in or two and if I thought of that in 30 seconds somebody smarter than me there's hundreds of people that are going to be gone I guess my suggestion is there's a significant difference of use to have people you know walking through and sitting on the grass areas in Dickens Farm then having food trucks in a beer bar and located there so it's pretty different from option 1 which I like a second question is in these maps there's kind of this red area of the north end that's kind of I think the draw area for the fireworks is closed off and how it's drawn on here does that mean that you would not be allowed to walk to this part from basically whether it was up to 10 seconds in areas that would be closed yes only during the fireworks though only for that 20 minutes during the fireworks show okay it's just that short closure that's for that all of Boston there as well yes because I think one of my concerns is that I don't think there's enough parking at Harvest Junctions for how many people you want to have come to this and I think people would get there on a bike or by foot from the northeast is ideal it's just that short closure that I'm going to give to my concern on that that's great that's all I have for now thanks thanks Sam David are you still yielding or are you where is your hand yeah if I could maybe you had a job then did his job lay on the slide and talked about the analyzes I mean I think your other thing is it works like Sam however again just kind of reminder you know the preparation was put in the spot to put a bet in place with all these constraints and as we work through all kinds of iterations and staff spent a lot of time out there the mayor spent time on it rec staff, natural resources staff Jeff the 11th hour kind of came up with this proposal and I'm just going to say I think it does the most minimize it impacted for me like with Jeff to say it's going to have no impact on this nature area can't say that but I think they're tasked with bringing people to not either moving through the park or having activities in the park I think we've done a lot to try to do as much outside of it and give people a good ways to get to the event without having to move through the nature area very much so I can't maybe jump in with it I can't hear the conversation but it's what makes you people knew that this was a lot of staff working time and trying to find something to disrupt that balance that we're all tasked with thank you David age so I guess probably what I'm worried about is that this is setting a precedent to do this year every year and I mean I would be really concerned with the idea that this is going to be perceived as a venue for big public events of this sort can I respond to that? the mayor did say that she doesn't want this event this year to set a precedent that this is the 2024 event and that should look like something else to be thought of for future years and the city manager said that if this didn't happen every year it would be the only event that there would not be any other event to prove other than 4th of July just on that same piece we'll top it here I gave that was to discuss a lot I think staff is the way to look at one of the all attempts to bring them into the future but I think we can never speak to what councils and directors in the future are like I agree with that I think staff has been creative about providing new opportunities to go forward to so I have a question that I'd like to ask and it's kind of an obvious one that we kind of talked about at the bottom of what is the Kiwanis club's concern with the Boulder County Fairgrounds do we know? not for sure the challenge that has been indicated is that there's no way to control the fire where they're shot out and by doing it inside so that red line is quite a ways away from where they're actually shot off and again it's a fenced area owned by the city and no one but authorized people could get into that which is where the biggest risk is have you guys talked about the fire coming from there? this is their idea this originally several years ago so we don't fence an area off at Boulder County Fairgrounds I mean that's what they indicated the fire area service area is not that huge used event companies build events around the state's way I think we're creating I don't know it feels like we're creating $80,000 but we just put it where we want it Boulder County Fairgrounds it costs $50,000 but I don't think the city wants that either the traffic control is much greater than what they have indicated none of the fairgrounds parking is available because it's all in the fall off area so there's no waiting except by trail or by foot to get to Rogers Grove sorry they can't set off the fireworks in the arena like the arena is totally fenced you can't get in there you set them off from the arena the fairgrounds and it's dirt building right now and this is just me curing it said colonists talked about how our shows were on that weekend so they have utilization so that's one thing I have heard I don't know that specifically alright Paige I just wanted to go back so you guys specifically asked whether or not this kind of activity performs with our view of what is the low impact passive preparation that's what council was asking okay my answer is no and again can you mitigate is option 3 mitigating that on a short term but I think in general this kind of activity really does not does the creation of the event though create more people using the space it feels like we're creating more of a problem then if you just launch the fireworks from the fire center it includes down Martin Street people are still going to go where I think half of us already said is going to go between Walgreens and whatever and go into the park anyway and find a spot to just hang out creating an event near it is that everyone is going to disappear and try to find that to do it anyway this has been our directive to come up with an event around it that's been the 7th part is the person that's done a lot is the bridge that's why I don't know the bridge the bridge is amazing spot what did you just say it's what so we're literally if you're on the bridge you can see the wastewater treatment and you have this I'm going to put a big wall up but for someone who's done a bike event going by this route like 5 times people hate the foundry they hate the fire station and they hate like what are the other locations that has the visibility core more than this has if you go to Roosevelt Park there's all the trees around so you lose some of that when you go back to the fairgrounds the golf course was used in the past the trees are blocking some of that is what I've told us so you know is the airport more space high that has not been suggested and we do bullet events there so I mean action and yeah I mean I think it would be good to discuss on the board like there's sort of two questions like one is does the event meet the definition that we see of low impact passive recreation and then I feel like there's another question which is I think that is this an alternative that we can live it for one year they didn't really ask that they asked about the passive I don't know that they haven't seen this either councilman there only must be I just am thinking about precedent is a big thing oh we won't do it but we could have a whole new council could have a whole new mayor but now it's precedent and then also like let's say we wanted to have a 200% stargazing event there at midnight that would be shut down right away like so much more passive than this I don't know that we would shut that down okay well good to know because that's what we've done some things on that stance on that same type of party you know like yeah okay but we did though it was up above by the upper party so there's a lot of different directors that can go with this right I think that probably makes sense to open up as anyone has a motion they'd like to make and we can keep them there about which path we want to go down should we do the informal straw pool about like what do you think this has to do with like does this fit the definition of use like what do you guys think if you're being honest not like do you want the event or do you not this fit the definition of use for this area I don't know so if you think it does thumbs up if you think it doesn't fit not that you're saying you don't want this out of this thing then let's see a procedure not about option three just in general just forward do we think that this constitutes as passive use I think that's a fair point straw pool and informal so that you think we're out of this let's see thumbs up Stan where are you at I don't believe it fits the definition of passive use I think that's thumbs down okay that was now this would you ever like approve or what would be approved as a ULPP in this area for anybody else's event no because it was traditionally based on the design of it was not intended to be an event location okay so well now just the fact that it's seen through on the first glance and it's by definition not an event space it's a weird concept for me to try to wrestle around that by definition it's not an event space I saw page first hand first I just wanted to respond to that when a park or a nature area is planned and then there's a master plan there's a whole public process around how you know what that space is can be used for in this case it's a nature area so it's not a park there's not an amphitheater in there and there's a conservation easement over it so those are the things that are kind of guiding sort of the attitude to that and Jim maybe wants to add to what I'm saying the master plan for this nature area does call for the turf there to be used for small to medium sized events that focus more on the nature aspects of this nature area so education is probably that kind of thing so I've been informed that there is a VA public crisis event application for an event for teaching the community about the watershed so the education stations within the turf area with their S&A 200 people over like a two hour period that would be a very consistent that would be consistent I think I would like to move that we respond to City Council that after discussion we do not believe that an event of this size in nature conforms with the definition of a passive recreation for a conservation nature area point of order again so my only thing is the road isn't part of the park we're staying away from it I understand but the motion's not about that we're not talking about whether we like the event or not the question that we were asked was does this kind of event more with that definition the end part is not is there a second for that second okay all in favor of that motion sorry could you could you restate it for me briefly yes page where page she really I moved that we respond to City Council but after discussion we do not feel that an event of this size and characteristics conforms with the definition of low-impacted passive recreation for a conservation nature area thanks just keeping it narrow to the question to ask that space okay thanks thank you and then we had Aaron seconded and then okay so all in favor of that motion raise hands nobody oppose the motion passes do we now before we move on to the agenda do we want to make a motion or do we want to assess making recommendations about option 3 do we want to raise that and acknowledging that comment on that I think it would be good it sounds like people are generally somewhat open to the idea of option 3 at first I think there is a lot of potential there and with the chance to workshop that further to try to encourage access and use of impervious surfaces receding and all kinds of things that can be done with it I guess my question would be is it worth making a motion in support of something like that that we do think could be compatible with the nature area and then is there a chance to bring that back next month and talk further about whether it was there this guys start moving like next week and getting started we're going back to Council on the 26th I guess I mean the challenge is we have to have time to fund this event July is just around the corner right but we have to have time to provide feedback I mean if we can't provide feedback and say well we would love to help you and provide some alternatives but it's like well it's too late so Sam given that we don't have we won't have the opportunity to discuss it in future months and pages would you still do you still want to proceed with making a motion or not I mean I'm sure staff will summarize that to the Council when we discuss it I don't think we need to make a motion if the most people are only about it is in the state of my perspective that it does seem like we can thread the needle of having an event here and there's lots you can do to encourage I guess to discourage uses of the greenway area and Dickens that are not desired well encouraging attendance I'd like to think that we can host an event like this in the city in all the spaces that we have there's more to talk about with I guess the fairground lots of questions but if this is the answer that you needed before I think we should try for it and see if we can get it done so related to this site and this just I mean just came up the discussion with park folks has been about some fencing out there we hadn't really discussed it specifically Jim do you want to talk about what we still if this event went off in this way and Martin what we still might look at fencing off within that area within the nature yeah I think you can see the greenway softened yeah sure yeah that's off let's see then have to be so extensive can it not just be fun does it have to be good charts and music and carnival games we had been charged to do that part of the event and I believe that part of the goal would be to provide other entertainment opportunities where it might lessen some of the own yes whether that will work or not that makes sense that makes more sense to me then people are going to people just want to set off fireworks seriously they're cool and fun to set off fireworks it would be kind of nice if people got a spot to go set off their own fountain in ruby candle that would be nice because every 12 year old boy who is 72 and still 12 year old boy still wants to do that so our show can hear so we would be expecting people here to probably use the greenway trail to come through here so looking at the most likely areas that people will start into Dickens Farm with the people out there I would ask too then David is more concerned about people going through a major area of hours to watch the fireworks is there a possibility to get rangers or a PD to help close off the trail in a few ways to redirect people out of a major area if that's an option or not you're on view you're on view I can't speak for PD but I know Harold must make this work so he can direct that for the rangers of our area we have a plan for the to be there to assist as needed so I think Jim if you can look at the areas that we want people out of remembering that the greenway trails themselves are more likely hours for movement through so people trying to get from point A to point B greenway trails are more likely hours those grassy areas where you have concerns with the wildlife so I think working with your group and rangers we need to try to figure out how best to do that yeah I think with ranger help and some strategic fencing that would be all loaded with it pretty well before the trail is in the major area I have to say that's not going to happen but compared to the three options that have been discussed as a path to the open spin path the west side of the major area too so you go west of that and now that it's mown no I'm sorry east I'm sorry I was the other west I'm sorry going that way you see that area that rocky area right there that whole thing that's going to be a viewing area no I'm talking about this area I'm talking about I can stand look so past the cottonwood trees this is going to be chock full of people and they're going to come from the dispensary over there and they're going to like the dispensary and with the name of that couldn't take out that it's here they're going to be here this right here it is now mown down to nothing and it won't grow off that much this year that's just going to be a big viewing area of people unless this is cut off that's wild turkey habitat and clover habitat so I don't know so I just want to ask one more time does anyone want to make a motion on the option that line does staff feel that we should I think it would be good to have some type of and if you say the fourth option might be don't do it here that's exactly where I was going so if not I was going to make a motion that we recommend a city council neither that we don't use the dicking farms or Martin street area at all for this event do I have a second? sorry okay alright all in favor we have an open discussion okay okay there sorry Nick can you repeat what just happened I made a motion Sam to recommend that the city council that we do not use the dicking farm area or Martin street areas at all for this event and there was a second? a very good second after the presentation there's still a discussion still discussion 4th of July Scrooge and this is also this is our recommendation city council city council I just don't see what's going to change next year we're going to see how why we're doing something we're going to be like oh we're just going to do it for this year because something's going to change we're going to have some new area someplace in our city that has this great fireworks venue I think that if it works here it will be back oh it's going to be back forever any other I mean I'm just wondering I mean if we were if we were one year from opening up the sugar mill that would be different but we're not starting a discussion Sam did you want to open the discussion for this motion that's on the floor no I'm good to go okay alright so all in favor of the motion recommended city council second area farm or Martin to at all for this event saved 1, 2, 3 all those opposed 2 I'm almost dating I just don't think I know enough about like yeah I think it's I think we have a traffic problem I mean we're like split I don't know if that actually that's okay we don't have a majority I mean but you guys know how reserved we are about all of it I guess that's important but for you guys to sorry not to bring it for you folks to know is how reserved we are about this idea but the motion does not pass David I'm sorry I move quick over here I was looking back to Sam's question about if they wanted a staff I mean I hope they wanted you guys to vote I heard Jess say yes we did during these motions not pass I do think it's important for staff to take back how important it was for this group not to have impacts so that's why I was kind of hoping for if you were not trying to get back to Sam's question if there was a way to get through that needle council would be very clear that the least amount of impact was trying to get to and that was again prior to something that just happened and I just wanted to make sure I was trying to get back to Sam's question yeah I think having input from this group is important and I think whatever that outcome is I think we can share that with the council yeah I mean that's what I was trying to get to and I couldn't think of a way of just saying you know if they could I just don't think they can have just the fireworks and you know really protect the major area you know maybe that is a workable option but something at this scale is just alright so we are this was a great conversation I'm glad we were able to get through some of it but then we do need to move on if not we can do an enjoyment but we do have one more new business topic on the agenda was discussing the board retreats and of course we're all tired and probably brain dead by this point but I know this has been moving from last month's agenda to this month's agenda so I hate to just keep you down on the road without any type of discussion on this maybe opening up just a little bit so I think for the board retreat there's a couple of decisions we need to make for this starting with you know would this replace would the board retreat replace a standing meeting or be an additional meeting would be one part and the second part would be what would we like to dive into and so maybe if we'll use tonight just to discuss options or brains in just a little bit and how many of you will just cap this at any time or 10 minutes because we're already late as it is then we can come back and make decisions if we consider on it but I'll be able to come to that so if that's okay with everybody can just open the discussion or you know first of all should this board retreat replace an existing standing meeting or be a standalone discussion when we did prior year or and I should say what would be some ideas that we'd like to consider for that board retreat does anybody have any thoughts on this so last year just as a reference we did it on a Saturday night did you replace some of the meeting with any of these yeah yeah it kind of gets late first any of the thoughts on that so if we were to do one we'd feel roughly that it would be its own standalone similar to how we did last year okay it's possible it could be if I were on a cork you didn't tell a hound how so I mean I don't know some way to like create the meet cup and we didn't you know Scott that's a great oh yeah I'm not who I was attached field trip retreat was two similar things but I loved field trip ones to put things in more like human contents it's good to see things in the role but sometimes the scale is a little off compared to where the scale is so if I'm playing like correctly we're saying that we're good as nice but actually we're going to do anything to do we're going to focus on the field trip and the allocation well I think earlier we had said being able to visit projects that completed or something like that would be for projects that are coming up this year are good to keep in mind it could be a hybrid so okay thank you any other thoughts on that so in terms of topics then to forward this work for you we've got into any thoughts or degree on what we want to discuss I would drill out besides the projects that are coming up that I think the CIP process is always something that's interesting to do even though it's to be off so I thought it was not for another few months just to gear up some future to be timing and education to know what to do about CIP and getting involved okay any other thoughts on topics yeah I would like us to take a deep dive in inclusion right this can gets kicked down the road it's frustrating that it just keeps going down the road you have to set aside things the time to do things if you really want to say oh we want to be inclusive we don't know why we have certain people of certain folks of certain identities that don't feel welcome in our spaces or don't feel like they can use I'm sorry I'm talking loud not because I'm being passionate because I want to like be loud to you but if we want to include we want to be truly inclusive we need to set aside time for it we set aside a ton of time to hear about like what's going on at what park and all that stuff we haven't set aside time for that so I did send out an email that was I didn't realize that it was illegal to send out thanks send out sorry but there is like there is eco inclusive is excellent and one of the workshops is called collaborative community engagement which would be a really excellent use of our time I haven't had I've had several parker's trainings before but that would be an excellent use of our time is learning how we can engage folks that don't look or have identities like us either or and I would like to thank you Erin for sharing that so I think we have CIP D-Dive, CIP Cross D-Dive D-E-N-I but I would add one which would be going into a master plan really into that document and just hearing it apart really dissecting it would be something that would be something we haven't done as a group before and that would be something that I would be interested in as well so we have three topics there just one more quick quick round I guess we lost him is there any others on that less that we should add is there okay so Jeff if it's okay what I think we should do is send out a poll to the group offline for potential Saturday or Sundays dates or for the board retreat we can discuss at least a lot on dates if we can do it as you can join and then of those three topics we can discuss perhaps in the next month's meeting which of those we want to go with and I actually heard for a little trip being the other yeah you're right or we could do I was trying to think about that how are we going to talk about it how are we going to do about our following apart recreations but we could I mean I think any of those we could combine it you can do all this stuff outdoors you can do all this stuff in a pavilion you know yes okay do you want us to include in the poll priorities about what the four or five items to date and topic okay okay great let's keep moving because we're already over time here anyone have any yeah we actually do do we it's kind of an informal thing that the board has always done that's what I've noticed but it's not in the bylaws last month motion to extend the meeting we're probably gonna close out I don't want to speak too soon okay okay all in favor Sam will take that as a no I'm sorry yeah yeah yeah it's not in the bylaws though okay alright does anyone have this item in the packet if you want to raise you have 15 minutes I have I don't think wait I don't want to go stop yes so I have a question so can I please back to your comment about Thompson Boston New Bridge and Gallo both were over when the budget came up well it was over budget but you know we're re-award we have to wait 90 days to set it out to bid again so what we're doing and you have to alter the scope so that it's not unfair for others that have already done it so that is going to go up in April and there are some strategies it will allow us to we're gonna do some alternates within that bid so we can then control like the what is included okay that's good this is a 2-1 answer then so are we then concerned with like then putting out other projects to see Thompson part of it is it much bigger and so there's just a lot of things to do with that project with the other projects that we're doing they include the box those are all on schedule two of which one is under construction one is getting ready to start construction and the box is following and so looking ahead we're also looking at alternate delivery for some of our other projects like the Roosevelt Park doing a design build delivery model so then we can control and also do the nature of the project so that kind of helps with that some of the approaches where they can help us put together establish what the specific scope might be and then work within our budget that we've established we're looking at all these different options thank you thank you I have a quick one how was the public meeting the public meeting there were six people and there was what it was a cold night it was a cold night it was a cold night as usual you know the Muscle lighting represents the model so you can show the light you can kind of expect and give examples of different types of lights where these systems are installed they had some questions about the programming and the hours it wasn't a whole lot that came out of it as far as this lighting hill no one there really came to touch it up we did have Josh just oversee that project there to answer any questions I saw the notifications in my son's afternoon's letter it's a color that's where we have the meeting that's where we have the meeting just recently they had updates in the afternoon's letter that's good and the contractor there are trailers for both in the dirt feet parking lot of the park so there was a bigger presence there because they're seeing job failures in density and activity and it was a bad snow nobody's super attached to this I think sledding might be over for the year that's what I mean but you might have just used this I'm hoping so that's your shovel alright any other items in the packet last call okay items from staff nothing I have one quick Kensington restroom will be completed next Thursday so it will open with all the parks when further re-energized but this is just time for me to go to the bathroom I was waiting until next Wednesday not a lot of water are there any items from the board Scott? I have one for David about the transportation mobility plan there really wasn't anything that really touched back on greenways and tying in greenways it was really kind of concerning that the mobility plan is really engineering focused on streets despite the fact that the cover image is of the greenway at Holger and I thought the intent was to include the greenways as part of our transportation infrastructure at some point but even as it closed in terms of the public to be heard in parts there really wasn't a lot to be said I'm not sure what I'm going to do I stood up there just because we weren't even invited to that meeting so I stood up because I figured that would be a piece we want to talk about and then I do think that being Jody Marsh's Philippine Walts Gene Command and mine and Jeff's looking at greenways really has more than just recreation transportation ways to get people to clean spaces so I think we're going to need to push that but I'll just say I would agree with you that that's the reason I stood up there that night and we will continue to keep pushing that because it is the piece okay thank you it's reinforcing the consultant basically said that's not an aeroscope to talk about and I was like I think I've written the project on because we're still siloed using talking about greenways and where the sidewalk touches the greenway we might as well just pull out a 10 year old plan that we've already have and just go with that because it has a failure but they have other plans because we didn't tie the two systems together and I can just say I think this project to make that connection Danielle and her team will be closer to Greenwald Steph and her group will be closer to engineering I think we're trying to make sure the silos are at least okay thank you alright any other items from the board okay with that we'll entertain a motion to adjourn we have a second a second quick second all those in favor I guess I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I thought it was not like communication or something we're just going to step in out here