 Good morning and a very warm welcome to the 32nd meeting of the Constitution, Europe, Excel, Affairs and Culture Committee in 2023. Our agenda item today is to take evidence on our past, our future, and the strategy for Scotland's historic environment, which was published in June this year. We're delighted to be joined by Brian Dixon, head of buildings and conservation at the National Trust for Scotland, Caroline Clark, director for Scotland of the National Lottery Heritage Fund, Ailsa MacFarlane, director of built environment forum Scotland, Lucy Cassett, chief executive of museums and galleries Scotland, Joslyn Cunliffe, acting chairman of architectural heritage at the Society of Scotland, Elaine Ellis, skills planning manager for Skills Development Scotland, and online we are joined by Caroline Warburton, destination development director, central and northeast Visit Scotland, who is joining us remotely. And a warm welcome to you all and a huge thank you for the written submissions for today's session, for those that have put them in. It is around table, it's intended to be slightly less formal, and hopefully everyone will have a chance to participate in the discussion. Caroline, if you indicate online the clerks, they'll let me know if you want to come in in any of the points. Our main focus is the views on the three-powert areas for the sector, the role of stakeholders in supporting the delivery and strategies aims, the monitoring progress and measuring success of the strategy, and any potential blockages, risk delivery or a concerns that you have going forward. If I could open with a question that has just said, whether you think that the priorities for the sector are set out in the strategy are the right ones going forward, and whether you consider that actions due to be undertaken will be able to deliver the priorities that are set out in the strategy. I'll maybe go around the room and if you want to say very briefly, because we will run out of time, we always do, a little bit about your organisation and then I'll come to Caroline first. Thank you very much, chair. The National Lottery Heritage Fund supports a broad and diverse range of heritage organisations across the whole of Scotland. Ranging from built heritage, natural heritage, intangible cultural heritage, we really expect that it's up to organisations applying to us to tell us about the heritage that they care about and we work with them to help them celebrate that. We fund from community grant levels to major capital projects across the country, so we've been very involved in built environment for the decades that the lottery has been in existence. The priorities laid out in this strategy we really very much welcome. I think that the way that they seek to empower communities to be engaging with their heritage in a meaningful way is something we are keen to see and to identify mechanisms and structures to support that. I think that the breadth of mission in this strategy means that we will need to think very carefully about how to monitor the impact it's having and how to make sure we can measure the change that it has over its life span. Lucy? I represent Museums Gallery Scotland and we're the national development body for the museums and galleries sector. We look after the 450 museums and galleries in Scotland or support them. One of the interesting things for us is that we developed the strategy for Scotland's museums and galleries in parallel with the development of the strategy. That came out in February, so it was slightly ahead, but very much working in that same context. We worked quite closely with us in sharing some of that experience in the consultation. One of the things that really struck me from looking through all of the responses was how much there was commonality between the strategies. I think that that is natural and also very positive. I think that it's really helpful in terms of how we deliver the strategies and also within the framework of the wider culture strategy that there are those synergies, but because we're all working in the same wider context, I think it's good to see that. I think that they are the right priorities. I would agree with Caroline that the centering of people in this strategy is really, really important and a sort of step beyond the previous strategy. Are the actions up to the challenge? I think this is one of the things that we're all grappling with. This has to provide a framework within which we can work. The context is changing quite rapidly, so there's more detail I think that would be useful to come out as we get into the delivery phase for the strategy. Broadly, I think that the right actions to try and deliver that and the deliverability will depend on a number of things in terms of the wider context and resource and so on, but we will number us to a part of the chief executives forum that supported the previous strategy, our place in time, and we were also involved in the development of that strategy, so I'm very much supportive of what's come out in that. Thank you for inviting the architectural heritage society of Scotland to be part of this stakeholder group. Apart from the national trust for Scotland that does receive funding for specific projects, I'm right in saying that we alone, amongst the stakeholders present, don't receive any funding from either the Scottish Government or Historic Environment Scotland. We have in the past received Historic Scotland grant, but we don't now. So, as it says at the beginning of the summary, the remit of the society is to encourage the protection of Scotland's built heritage. That goes beyond built heritage to talk about settings and place, but that's our focus. We're pragmatic, but we're very conscious that the heritage of Scotland is not a niche interest, it belongs to us all. We're a campaigning organisation, but we're also an educational organisation. People are welcome to respond on our website to request for support in dealing, for example, with contentious planning applications. When we were looking at the strategy, one of the things that concerned us was that there wasn't enough emphasis on what we call the day job, which is looking after Scotland's historic buildings. You'll see in this submission that I've put a lot of focus on maintaining buildings. When I say I've put a lot, in fact, the submission was collaborative. It wasn't just me, it was the National Conservation Committee and others who input into the submission. We think that it's critical that buildings and the public realm are properly maintained, and we don't see that happening. It's great to be here today. Thanks for inviting me along. I'm very conscious that I'm probably here from a slightly different role than the other participants who represent Skills Development Scotland. We're not directly part of the historic environment sector where the other partners are, but we have a very strong role with the sector and we work in great collaboration with them. In terms of the development of the strategy, it was a very collaborative process. It was one that colleagues within Skills Development Scotland, including myself, were part of and took part in the consultations, but the consultations definitely went across not just to stakeholders directly from the sector, but also across the public sector. It was very well reached out across the Scottish landscape, and that was taken into consideration. In terms of the priorities, I think that there are two main priorities that really do connect into our space. One is definitely around the net zero goal and the challenge around how we retrofit and move our buildings to net zero is a challenge that we ourselves recognise and definitely connect across. When we developed the climate emergency skills action plan working in partnership with other agencies and government, one of the sectors that we put as a priority sector was the construction sector. It was construction and energy efficiency. At the time, we didn't use language of retrofit because it wasn't so commonly used at that time if you're developing it tomorrow. I'm sure that language will be right through it. We did capture that, and we're currently working on a Pathfinder project where we're looking at—we've done a deep dive into looking retrofit skills across Glasgow and across Shetland. The challenges around the historic environment are part of that. They're not the only thing within that landscape, but they do feed into it. Certainly, we have within the CSAP a heat decarbonisation subgroup that is part of that structure. Again, that may change as we move forward, but within that we have partners from the historic sector and we have historic environment Scotland colleagues within that group. We absolutely recognise those challenges. We also recognise the goals around developing an inclusive and diverse workforce that sits across our entire remit. We are just one partners in the skills agents' landscape. We play an important role, but we only work in set areas. However, in terms of historic environment Scotland, we work directly with historic environment Scotland and across the sector in the development of the historic investment skills action plan that was published back in 2019. That is now currently getting updated, so that is an on-going process. Historic environment Scotland is leading on it, but we are one of its partners in working with them on that. That will be published early next year, but there has been conversations on going to reflect the major changes in the world since 2019, but also to feed into the new strategy. We work in terms of apprenticeship funding. We fund around 14,000 apprenticeships that are currently live directly related to those sectors, directly related to the construction sectors, to tourism and to creative industries. We have many other apprentices and fields that will link across the sector. Not every construction apprentice will go into the work in historic environment Scotland or tourism, but they have a very important core skill that makes them ready to move into that sector. They are ready and able to go. We have done work around promotion of careers and we have done development work. We have currently got on-going development work that relates into apprenticeship frameworks. The strategy is—I am very conscious again that I am not directly within the sector, but what I can see within the strategy is that they are looking at how to use historic environment Scotland tools and how to make them become more active. For me, it feels a very active strategy where they are looking at how to use it for net zero and how to benefit communities, and I think that that can only be a good thing. That's great. Ailsa. Thank you, convener, and good morning to everybody. Built Environment for Scotland is the third sector into mid-jury for organisations working within the existing built environment. We draw on extensive expertise within our membership to inform, debate and advocate for strategic issues across the sector. During the formation of the strategy, we were the lead for sector-wide engagement. We worked exceptionally hard with the small team at Historic Environment Scotland to reach out across the breadth of the sector to gather views. I won't dwell on that because others present have mentioned it. Ultimately, the priorities that we saw come through were very much ones that reflected what we heard across the engagement piece, but more importantly, they reflect a step-change in thinking from the previous strategy, which was understandably quite inward-looking and very much cementing the historic environment due to circumstances at the time. However, the priorities that we see reflect a sector that is outward-looking. The priorities and actions demonstrate how the sector delivers across a wide range of areas. Its purpose is not just what the sector can deliver against, but it is very much demonstrating the place of the sector as working across directorates, across Government portfolios and not necessarily considered within a silo. That is one of the key aspects. The actions reflect the breadth of work that exists within the historic environment. I appreciate that there are a number, including myself, of those who work within the built environment present today, but the strategy has a much broader reach than that. I think that that balance or something that everybody involved was quite keen to get across. It is fair to say that there is ambition within the priorities and the actions, so not everything. Everybody was keen to avoid easy wins. That should not just be about a strategy that reflects what we already do. It is very much about how to push further with the sector and how to ensure that it is recognised wider than the sector itself. Thank you for inviting the national trust for Scotland to come and give representation today. We are Scotland's largest conservation charity, so we manage around about 130 sites right across Scotland. We have a big built portfolio in there, so we look after and manage around about 1,200 built things. We are really quite engaged in the maintenance activity that Jocelyn was mentioning. On the development of the strategy, we have just recently launched our own 10-year strategy, nature, beauty and heritage for everyone, which looks ahead to the national trust for Scotland's 100th anniversary in 2031. The timing of our creation of that strategy and us feeding into the developing strategy was really good. We see a lot of great alignment within both strategies. From that perspective, it is a very positive thing. It has been a very collaborative process to achieve that. Within our submission, we have highlighted the number of challenges. Some of that relates to our activity in the previous strategy, the OPIT strategy, when it was created in 2014. I think that that succeeded very well in bringing the sector together and produced a number of really useful outputs from that. Activity on those outputs has been affected. Covid had quite a big impact where a number of those working groups were making inroads into certain areas within the sector. I think that one of the main things that it did not quite achieve was that the strategy was viewed as being relevant for a lot more people rather than just the sector. I do not think that OPIT managed to become mainstreamed. I think that that is where we are welcoming the change in the language of the new strategy. From a perspective from caring for our built environment, it is important that we have managed to make a narrative shift where caring for the built environment helps us to achieve net zero. It has been a really useful thing for our sector strategy to try to articulate that. There are still a great number of challenges. When I look upon our own estate and the challenges that we face, we believe that a well-maintained building is a positive attribute that gives civic pride, but just achieving that is very challenging. Both from a financial resource perspective—I know that our own estate is very stretched from that side—but also from a skills perspective as well. The work that Elaine was mentioning is absolutely vital in order to achieve the strategy. I think that, from an NTS perspective, if we had the finances to deliver large-scale capital works across Scotland, I do not think that we would have the skills that are available within Scotland in order to deliver that. We tend to be a contracting organisation, so we do not have a large volume of direct labour. The traditional skills out there to achieve good quality maintenance and repair, let alone robust retrofit. It is a very shallow pool at the minute. If there is ambition to deliver the strategy, I think that there needs to be a considerable focus on that. That is great. We will go online to Caroline. Thank you very much. Good morning, everybody. Thank you for the invitation to join the panel today, and thank you for accommodating me last minute to go online as well. It is much appreciated. I am representing Visit Scotland. Visit Scotland is the national tourism organisation. We are very much focused on ensuring the sustainable development and growth of the visitor economy. That is ensuring that tourism plays its part in building the well-being economy, as outlined in the national strategy for economic transformation. This also aligns very clearly with the Scotland Outlook 2030, which is the national tourism strategy. The three priorities in the historic environment strategy align very strongly with both of these strategies, and also with the work that we as an organisation are doing. We are hugely supportive of the strategy of the priorities and also the outcomes, which I suspect we might come on and talk about later. It is perhaps an obvious statement, but the historic environment is a key part of the tourism industry, and we recognise that. Some figures for you in 2019 and some research that we undertook showed that almost two-thirds of international visitors saw history and culture as a key driver for their visit to Scotland. We recognise the importance of the historic environment in all its forms right the way across the country, and it is that interplay between tourism, the visitor economy, communities, our built and natural heritage that is what makes Scotland special. However, I think we also recognise that the built environment, the historic environment, is not just for tourists, it is not just for visitors, it has to be relevant to communities as well. We are looking forward to playing our part where we can within the tourism industry, both as an organisation ourselves versus Scotland, but also in helping to engage the tourism industry in the development and delivery of the strategy. In terms of the actions themselves, I understand that the delivery plan is still being worked up, so again, we will be involved in that and happy to play our part. We already partner with many of the organisations in the sector, and we are looking forward to partnering with more as the development and implementation of the strategy goes forwards. Thank you very much. I want to move to questions that the committee can invite. Welcome to everybody. I would like to focus on the specific issue of closures of sites and restricted access, which I think will be well known to everyone here. I think that every MSP around this table will have experience of a closed site within their constituency or region. To be fair to HHS, I think that there has been improvement. According to their website, there are still, however, 22 sites that are fully closed and more with restricted access, and that has a negative impact on the local economy and on tourism. Could I ask for the panel's general view on the status quo, particularly how do we get more sites open? Secondly, there is talk of what is called managed decline of various sites, and I welcome views on that and more widely about the effects of climate change and the transition to net zero, which is a key plank of the new strategy. Views on that are most welcome. Perhaps Brian Sings is on my right. You might start. I am very sympathetic to the position that HHS finds themselves in. I think that the resources required to both inspect and undertake regular maintenance to any largest state is substantial. I think that all organisations struggle to fund those activities. Generally speaking, HHS is quite different to our own. I often say that an easy way to think about that is that ours have roofs and theirs don't. That is a great asset to have a roof, I have to say, because what that means is that, in order to maintain the structure, it is a lot easier to do, although it still is very challenging. I think that one of the things that we experience with regard to subtly changing climates is the fact that our maintenance programmes have to be more and more robust and more and more active, which involves more and more cost. Often it is very difficult to argue for maintenance when it is not really a sexy thing to talk about. People like to talk about capital projects and what they achieve, but in order to achieve good, robust maintenance, it is not really a topic that tends to feature at the top of an agenda—probably the bottom of an agenda. I think that, in line with looking after the Bill of State, I would reiterate the issues on craft skills. As you may know, in Scotland now, there is one college that delivers storm masonry apprenticeships. I often say that Scotland is a nation built of stone, and I do not think that having one college to produce apprentices is a very sustainable view or a position to go ahead. In summary, I am sympathetic. I think that there are great challenges for everybody to look after the Bill of State. I am slightly thankful that we do not have a great deal of ruthless ruins across our place. I do not know if anyone else wants to come in on that. The Architecture Heritage Society of Scotland, the AHSS, has written a number of letters on this topic. I would like, on behalf of the AHSS, to ask the committee to explore matters of risk with Historic Environment Scotland. When AHSS was established, I think that I am right in saying that the act of Parliament transferred responsibility of properties in care from the Scottish Government to AHSS. I think that the problems that AHSS has been facing with properties in care go back much, much further than 2014-2015. There has been a build-up of repairs going way back in time. Part of the closure is the point at which the bar was set. It is risk averse. I am not saying that it is right or wrong to be risk averse, but it is how you judge where you set the bar. I think that if the Scottish Government had liability for the risk, the view might be different, because it is a bit like a Covid inquiry. The damage that has been done to the economy by the closure of sites might have a sort of balancing act. Some places where there has been stonefall, stonefall into a moat where people are not going is not a high risk, whereas stonefall into a gatehouse where people are going is a high risk. There is a lot of talk about the climate emergency. Yes, we know that rainfall is a lot heavier, that the storms are much more intense, that there are temperature changes. I remain a bit unconvinced that the temperature changes in Scotland have been so dramatic that that is a big problem, but I do think that the rainfall is. I think that old-pointing building methods have impact. Anything that the committee can do to persuade there to be greater investment in the high-level inspections that are being taken place. Elsa and I were at a meeting of the BEFs Historic Environment Working Group when we heard from Craig Men's, the director of operations at AGS, about their programme to reopen. They are working through it methodically, but I think that not quickly enough. It is all very helpful. Does anyone else have a question? Caroline, do you want to come in? Yes, I just want to add that I have, like Brian, sympathy with the challenges facing Historic Environment Scotland. As Jocelyn says, risk is something to be considered on a publicly accessible site. Safety has to come first. The bigger picture to think about in terms of this strategy is that here we have an organisation resourced and expert enough to identify where those risk areas are, but presumably the same climate change impacts will be being felt across the built environment in all our building stock that we have. I feel they are more of a canary in the coal mine where the impacts we are seeing now are because they can see them, but there will be a lot of challenge in estates owned by private individuals, by NHS, by Department of Defence. The impacts of this are really going to be very severe in future years. Again, as we are really at the start of feeling the impacts of the climate change in a tangible form, it would be sensible for us to be trying to future-proof. Again, that comes down to skills and identifying how to manage the change that we need to see happening in our built environment well so that we are preserving and conserving the historic building stock as best as we can while making the necessary adaptations. I was going to flag that we are supporting RSPB Scotland to do some interesting work around the climate fourth. It is called looking at adaptation planning, not just for the natural environment, as sea levels are seen to rise, but also doing some piloting around the impact on the cultural and built environment in the fourth area. I think that doing more innovative testing work on how we are going to do this in areas of particularly high risk of flooding or other impacts of climate change is something that would be very sensible to be doing now early so that we can begin to implement that over the duration of the strategy. Does any other panel member want to come in on the closure? I think that we have got some supplementaries around this area. Is yours a supplementary mark? Is that sort of a new area? It's kind of a new area, really. Can I go to Kate first? I suppose that it's the inverse of Donald Cameron's question, and it's about new sites that are identified, which perhaps have been forgotten about or are indeed, in Brian Dixon's words, becoming ruthless. Obviously, it's not only historical environment Scotland that owns historical buildings. However, where there are other properties—I don't want to name-check any in particular, not least Kinloch Castle on the Isle of Rhum being an obvious example, where perhaps they are a key part of our historical environment but are not being treated as such right now. What is the process for—some of those questions are better for historical environment Scotland, but, from your perspective—what should be the process for identifying key assets like that and ensuring that they are part of a collection, irrespective of who the owner is, and where does responsibility ultimately lie not only in terms of identification, but also in terms of ensuring that they are not lost? I was going to suggest that Ilsan might want to come in about work that we've done within the built environment working group and the sustainable investment tool, which I think is one consideration when it comes to looking at heritage generally. Generally speaking, we've tended to look through a lens of the cultural value of an object, and the sector has probably been guilty of doing that for quite a while. There's been some really interesting work undertaken out of one of the previous OPEC groups that developed a toolkit to look at the heritage site, but to consider a much broader range of values, not only cultural values but economic, environmental and social values. I think that that tool helps to articulate the values of a particular site, so it would be really great if that could begin to be used a little bit more widespread. From a national trust for Scotland perspective, we've just really finished looking at our portfolio review and we used some tools that were developed to help to do that. When it comes to new acquisitions that we are asked to consider, we will apply a lens that is much broader than the cultural values. Interestingly, in looking at our portfolio, we have been able to determine the things that our portfolio perhaps isn't representative of, such as industrial heritage, buildings that are more modern in their construction. We are beginning to develop a view to what our portfolio should look like or could look like. We would welcome conversations with Historic Environment Scotland as well on that. I point the panel to a tool that's been really worked quite hard by the sector, and I encourage it's further use. I also might want to talk a bit about that. Thank you, convener, and thank you, Brian. The tool that Brian is talking about started perhaps in relation to a previous question because it was around prioritisation. It was the initial conversations, but through that there was a series of values worked through by the sector very extensively over a number of years. It very much considers any site or asset through a lens that looks at a variety of different economic values that that could bring or, particularly, what investment in that site could bring. It also looks at social and community values and what can be brought in that area. Environmental perspective, how net zero changes can be supported, as well as, of course, a quarter—it's a circle, there are quadrants—a quarter of that is very much all about the cultural value, so those are absolutely embedded within it. Very fortunately—and this has not been set up—the tool is launching next week with public access. It is being put out on behalf of the built heritage investment group, which was one of the last groups relating to our place and time in the previous strategy. It is not owned by anybody, it is for the sector. We will be looking after it as a beta tool, so we are also looking at people to give comments and to use it and to tell us how they are using it. It is very much designed for everybody in the broader sense, but people with an interest in this area are designed to be used by community groups as well as by professional organisations. There is a lot of explanation of language and terms, and it has been made as accessible as we can make it, while also being accurate and reflective of the sector, which you can imagine is a difficult balance. To go to Ms Forbes' question about acquisitions and thinking about what Brian was saying, I think that what is important is that we are sure that, for the future, we will tell the breadth of the story of Scotland. When it is about what news sites are and what stories are we not telling and what things do we need to bring into our portfolio, regardless of where that ownership sits, it really helps to express what matters currently. We have quite a good handle on things that have mattered, and we have quite a reflective picture from that perspective, but I would say that if we were considering new acquisitions, ensuring that breadth of stories is told, particularly industrial heritage onwards, is where there might be more gaps. Keith, was that a supplementary area? It's to say that we've already started hearing some calling inevitably about scarcity of resources in terms of how people can do the things that they need to do to look after what we currently have, but the point about new sites potentially—I may have missed it, but I didn't hear reference to economic regeneration, and I know that we can all list various sites, but just to mention a couple, in Kennett, near Concardin, there is the first industrial production site for whisky in Scotland, where it was all taken down to London. In fact, the slip is still there, but we used to go down. It's a ruthless building. It has trees going up through it, so the lottery wouldn't touch it because they thought it was a magical building. Anyway, that site there, and not far from that, is at the back of the council buildings in Allawa, where the graves of Usher Jameson, who was Scottish and Irish, worked at the former site. Out with my constituency, thinking about Edinburgh, we've got the birthplace of Alexander Graham Bell in Canada. I think that we've got two visitor centres from Alexander Graham Bell in the States. We've got one, and we've got his birthplace, and we do nothing with it. I just wondered whether economic regeneration, an entrepreneurial helicopter view of new sites might produce revenues for different organisations that might help with some of that. Is that something that you would factor in? Is it something that you would factor in? It is within the toolkit. What economic benefits there can be, as well as social benefits, is the cultural knowledge that can come from that. I would perhaps add a note of caution to say that the economic regeneration from smaller sites can be less than could be imagined. In terms of visitor numbers through the door, how much it takes to run the building, the services relating to that, it is a surprisingly difficult balance. It is one of those things where it can seem like a very good option. Linking back to things that were said previously to the committee around communities and maybe communities taking on sites and their desires to perhaps run a small museum, or things that are absolutely culturally important and relevant to those people in that place, the sustainability of that in the longer term is an incredibly difficult balance. I very much appreciate the desire for new sites, but that balance is one that has to be taken into account for the longer term, so that people like us are not coming back to committees in 10, 20 years, saying that there is a resourcing problem for those sites as well. If I could just follow on that as well. The National Trust for Scotland, we have around about 3,500 volunteers who are very loyal to us. Without our volunteers, we would not be able to operate our sites. It is an absolute fundamental lifeblood to the organisation. On our balance books, there are a number of sites that are effectively profitable, but they are balanced by the number of sites that are not. The organisation will constantly operate within a deficit that we are safe and can tolerate, so just to reiterate Ailsa's point, but the tool does definitely allow for those conversations on that economic benefit. Neil, I know that you have talked a bit about the skills that you wanted to give in on the skills question. On the issue of skills, I have heard how important the skills shortage is in reaching the goals and the strategy. I was struck by the National Trust for Scotland's evidence around the historic environment skills investment plan, which was done in conjunction with the SDS, which said that out of the targets in the action plan, only 30 per cent of them have been delivered. I know that there are concerns about Covid and a lack of resource. I just wanted to ask whether there are any other lessons that can be learned in relation to failure to deliver on those targets. Also, if there is a skills shortage, what work has been done to quantify the number of apprenticeships that are needed? If there is a funding back home, funding is the reason why we are not meeting those action points. What is the level of funding that is required to meet the skills shortage that there is? I do not know if it makes sense to go to Skills Development Scotland, but National Trust and anyone else has got the input on that. I am not happy to come in. There are probably two different questions. When the SIP was created, some of the targets that were put in, and it was just before I worked there, so it was about five years ago, they put in right at the end columns some smart targets. I think that when I referred to the 30 per cent, it was these very specific smart goals that were put in. What I would say is that the broader actions that were connected with it, there was a lot of work undertook that meets the goals and ambitions of it that did not necessarily meet some of the smart targets. I think that some of the very specific actions that did not happen did come down to funding for certain projects that some of them sat with Story Environment Scotland and others. They might have expected to have had five years ago, but there has been such a change in the landscape and in the funding landscape that that has not been able to happen. I think that when we were at the development of the current skills investment plan, I think that there has been a lot of lessons learned in that time. Within Story Environment Scotland, they have brought on dedicated resource that was not there before, a lady called Catherine Cartman, who is there, who is very much leading on this plan. She has a team that is working on it. When the actions are set, that will be taken into account, and I think that there will be a lot more thought about what actions go in and making sure that when they set smart targets that the resources are there and the objectives are there to meet it. However, there are broader ambitions that they are working towards as well. In terms of the wider skill shortages in the sector, there are many different things in play. I think that stonemasonry is a good example to use as a case study that might tie across some of the other areas. Stonemasonry is incredibly important to the sector. There is work in Story Environment Scotland and others advocate for the need to bring more stonemasons on. In terms of demand across Scotland, there is absolutely no question that we need that skill, we need those skilled workforce, but sometimes there is a mismatch between the demand across Scotland and at the moment it is the demand that employers have to bring in those skills. There is only one route to become a stonemasonry in Scotland, that is a modern apprenticeship. It is a four-year commitment for an employer and it is in relatively recent years, I think in the last decade or so, it might be back to about 15 years. The demographic of the companies that are supporting the stonemasonry sector has had major shifts, so it has never been huge companies but there were a lot of medium-sized and bigger small companies and those companies took on more apprenticeships and they took them through. The businesses that have supported that sector have changed and it has moved on to even smaller and more micro-businesses and they do not necessarily want to commit to taking on that apprentice and taking them through. That is not a criticism, it is a valid business choice, it is a four-year commitment, it is a four-year commitment where you are having to find the wages for someone but it is not just about finding the wages and being an employer, you are also having to support them through that process. Some apprenticeships are done within college or within centres but a lot of it is done as a very personal relationship within a business where they are getting that one-to-one training. That is a major commitment and we have only one pathway. That pathway is industry designed. There have been issues around there. At the moment, we have 80 free apprentices in stonemasonry across Scotland right now. I have the figures that have arrived here. They are going across only three centres, it is one college and we are now down to one college, it is the city of Glasgow college. We do have other centres, historic environments, Scotland has centres in Elgin and Stirling so we have other locations for people to go but that is not high numbers. It is very small numbers and if we take some of the other construction framework that Stonemasonry sits in, it sits in a construction building one, there is about 1,800 other apprenticeships in the exact same framework not doing Stonemasonry. If the demand was there, there is absolutely nothing to stop them from doing Stonemasonry. The demand first and foremost is the biggest blocker and it is that mismatch between what we mean when the demand is a country and what the demand is from the employers. Because the demand from employers is lower, that has a knock-on effect in the skills provision because we then, with low demand, it becomes very difficult for colleges and other centres to have the classrooms there. We need a skilled workforce to train us, it is not the cheapest of courses to run because Stonemasonry and other equipment is not cheap. There are major blockers that all play in because that demand from the employers is lower. The funding that I would be adverse to mention, I know certainly that the colleges and others were there, the centres would all argue that they also need more funding and they made greater levels than is available but they do certainly achieve what is available and a lot of that tends to be a bi-person ratio. I would like to endorse what Elaine McLean has said but when she talks about employer she is talking about the contractors, the owners of the building firms that are employing the apprentices, but they themselves are looking for work. They need building contracts on which to employ those skills and one way that can be stimulated is by having grant-aided projects. I remember probably 10 or 15 years ago attending a meeting that was chaired by Alex Neil in Glasgow. I cannot remember the context but I remember a contractor sitting there and saying, you have stopped grant-aiding, this was with reference to Sir Scotland, you have stopped grant-aiding church work, that was a shoreline of work for my labour force and this is absolutely true. So, while grant-aiding is something that you do not want to do, you do not have money to give out, you should really think about it in terms of stimulating the economy and stimulating the demand for skills. I want not to stop this line of thought but we did have a showcase outside the Parliament of the apprentices demonstrating the slate work, stone work and many of my colleagues will have been at that. It was really interesting and wonderful to meet so many of the passionate apprentices in those areas. Lucy, you want to come in? Yes, thanks. The skills investment plan is a very broad plan. There are very specific issues around stone masonry but it has been well addressed. It is not the only skills area for the sector, so I think that it is just important. Museums Gallery Scotland is also collaborators in the skills investment plan. There are particular areas of skill that are relevant to the historic environment and particular skills that are relevant to the museum's sector, which we tackle separately. There is also the really important, more generic skills that are relevant across the heritage sector, across the culture sector. We have a Skills Academy, for example. We run an apprenticeship in digital marketing. We are looking at developing one around leadership, but we also run a programme together with BEFS and with Greenspace Scotland across the heritage sector funded by the National Lottery Heritage Fund, which is about business skills, financial planning, governance and all those issues that, for many of the third sector organisations who are looking after our heritage, need those skills to be able to operate sustainably. Those are some of the things that are really important. We support those organisations with those skills as well. The skills investment plan is looking across those wider areas as well. That has been a really successful programme. We have had two lots of funding from Heritage Fund to that, but it is coming to an end. We would very much like to be able to continue what has been a proven success programme that takes individuals from an organisation through a whole programme and supports some of the peer network to be able to do that. There are some of the other opportunities as well, but it is important that we look across the breadth of skills needs in the sector and not just at the specific one that needs its own solutions. Does anyone else have a panel? Add related and to build on the points that Elaine made, the challenges that we are seeing, particularly for us, smaller heritage organisations spread right across Scotland is that young people coming out of the pandemic are needing a greater level of support to access the apprenticeships of all training and skills development that is available. We are seeing organisations like the rich in East Lothian, for example, doing pre-apprenticeship work with young people out of school. Perhaps now there is some rethinking needed about how we support young people into whether it is a four-year apprenticeship or some other shape and enable them to physically access some of these places. Would it be more appropriate to have a locally based skills development that enables them to be staying with the support network of their home environment? I think that there is quite a lot of broader thought that would be beneficial to give to this area to make sure that we are really successful in supporting young people to have a long thriving future once they get the skills that they need. Brian Cairn? A couple of points. I think that with relation to the targets in the old sip, it really did get launched about a week before we went into lockdown, so I think that it has struggled to gain any momentum after that. I think that the tone of the investment plan was very collaborative, which was good, but it is quite difficult when you try to engage private owners or other largest state owners when we are talking about trying to mainstream that strategy. There was no money available to deliver any of the actions, hence the reason that it was collaborative, and it achieved some successes, but maybe that is something that could be looked at. The new sip is really comprehensively being reviewed now, so I think that it is really lifting the carpet under a lot of issues, but I suspect that there will be a great deal of action out of that. I think that if we try to mainstream a little bit, it might be more beneficial to put some investment behind that and you might attract a much wider audience to helping to support some of the actions. I am conscious that I am answering a lot around the construction sites. I apologise for the other sites, but in terms of mainstreaming, we are doing some work with the reviewing of some of the current apprenticeships. Some of them are relevant to the sector. There is a carpentry and joinery apprenticeship review that is on-going at present and there is one on-interior building that crosses over into subjects such as traditional plastering. We have had discussions on how best to incorporate and include it in, and it is very much a balance and act on how you have the time to do that. We are not just training plasterers or joiners for a historic environment, but we are training them to be ready to go out to any part of the economy. It is how we fit that within the existing teaching space and how we do that in a way that can work so well. We have had those conversations and we have had the representatives from the historic environment as part of those conversations and we are actively working on looking at how best to place it. It will be there and it will be included, but it might be more that it becomes part of a knowledge base or part of the learning rather than part of the core qualification, but it will be there. The design question is back to the sector on what next, and when people are working in the sector, are there additional qualifications or additional requirements that could be looked for over and above? However, there has absolutely been work done to look at how we embed it in the part that we do. You have identified that there is a skill shortage, but we also have a wealth of talent in volunteers and individuals who have, for example, men's sheds, where they are bringing together individuals across a wide range of sectors that have skills that they have been in the past, that they are passing on to other people who come and join. How have you tapped into the third sector and the volunteering sector to see what they can add to the skill base that you have and hand over that skill? Those individuals might have stopped their working-life environment, but they still have that skill and base that they can hand on to the next generation to support and come along and do things for many of your organisations. I think that that particular question is probably one that some of the organisations that work directly within the historic sector could answer a lot better than me. I do not doubt that that is a resource that they should have looked at and will have had the opportunities to connect over with. From our side, we are very much focused on the skills that are relating to pacific occupations and qualifications. For my job, it goes back to the skills to become a qualified carpenter and joiner or a qualified bricklayer or a qualified electrician. It is back to that occupation. When we are looking at those skills and how best to get those skills, we go out into industry to get feedback. We do consult widely. We work really closely with industry leadership, but we also make sure that we go right back and we speak with our apprentices that are currently going through the system or just out the other end. We talk with employers, so my angle is slightly different from that angle. We are obviously in a climate emergency. You have already focused some of your comments on that. I am looking at the strategy here. The first priority is delivering that transition to net zero, and it is primarily focusing on that historic environment asset. Do you think that there is enough embedding of the historic environment sector in other Government strategies that are pushing towards net zero? I was particularly struck by AHSS's submission to the committee where you talk a lot about pre-1919 buildings in Scotland. I think that many of us, including myself, live in those buildings and recognise some of the challenges, but some of the design features of those buildings are important as well. I was interested in what your thoughts are on that particular issue around housing, around retrofitting, around skills development and whether the historic environment sector can really be a driver for that wider transition within housing. Just related to that, about whether, with climate policy more generally, you see some tensions. Caroline will visit Scotland. If the objective here is to grow tourism in Scotland, does that come with aviation? If it does, then it obviously takes us backwards in terms of climate change. Just about the role of the historic environment in designations, does that create a break on renewable energy development, whether that is wind farms, whether that is conservation areas, restricting the role of embedded renewables such as solar panels and everything else. Tensions but also opportunities as well and whether the sector can be a real driver in terms of skills and progress. Brian, do you want to come? The net zero topic is absolutely fundamental to how we look at our built estate. A lot of our built estate—I am not speaking just about the National Trust for Scotland's estate, but when you go out into the high streets, you are in amongst the historic environment. A lot of that has been tinkered with in the past and that is often done with materials that were done with the best of intentions back in the 50s, 60s and 70s. We are deleterious to the way that the fabric operates at the minute, so the introductions of cement renders on gable walls and things like that, you probably know that topic. When you look to retrofit a building, i.e. upgrade its energy, if you do not take a fabric first approach to that, you are almost wasting your money because the building has to operate within an equilibrium where it allows transition of moisture and allows for better thermal performance of the fabric. I think that the scale of that across our high streets and individual estates is really substantial. I think that there is a real opportunity for making sure that our fabric is fit for purpose first and then you will get effective retrofit after that. To answer your point, I think that the historic environment strategy can really lead on those particular topics. Good reflection and I will be aiming to chip away at cement base render on the side of my house over a number of years. I suppose the question is, do you think that that has reflected enough in government strategy then? We have a heat and building strategy coming, we talked about skills earlier on. We have a historic environment strategy, but it is very much focused on the historic environment. We know what needs to happen. Should your sector not be embedded into other strategies? Thank you very much for the question. This is an area that, as an organisation, we work in extensively. I agree wholeheartedly that the historic environment is not embedded well enough across other strategies. We work a lot with the team within heat and buildings. I will say the last six months, I am a little. There is now a new team within that for historic and listed buildings. I really want to stress this point. Finally, I understand that this is an awful lot of our existing environment. It is an awful lot of our housing, as is part of the infrastructure commission's report. Housing was seen as part of our infrastructure and then gets gently pushed to the side while we think about other things. Those buildings are not difficult, but they are just different, and they have to be considered differently. It is fantastic that there is now some energy unintended in that area, because there are specificities that need to be considered. That makes things trickier, because it is not as easy as, well, you just do this, because there are different typologies, different types. I would say that there is also work going on around tenements and tenement maintenance. The cross-party group on tenement maintenance is one that has worked very hard in that area. There is on-going work, but it has been incredibly slow, not just due to Covid, but where priorities sit across portfolios has been difficult. When it comes to meeting net zero, the historic environment is not appreciated for its embedded carbon and its already existing value. That is a continual challenge. There is work on going across the sector and beyond on how that is measured, but I would say that we can spend a lot of time trying to unpick the exact measurements, rather than knowing that those structures are stone-built. They have inherent value, both from a carbon perspective and from a social and cultural perspective. That is not fully represented across a range of policies, but I would say that particularly net zero and heat and buildings is an area where we are obviously going to see significant change for the future. As a final point, I would say that there is a significant range of documents produced by Historic Environment Scotland around managing change, whether that be in relation to conservation areas, whether that be in relation to retrofit or many other things. Over recent years, those documents have taken great pains to talk about what is possible. It is not that designation is a stop, it is just a case of more thought, consideration and detail may go into it, but it is not about what is not possible, it should very much be about what is. It is a related point that you asked about the opportunities. It was slightly beyond in a sense what is here is the outcomes for this strategy. We know that climate change requires culture change in terms of our behaviours, and I think that the buildings that are in the public realm and those within the charitable sector as well are an opportunity to act as exemplars that are there to engage the public with the stories of trusted institutions, museums and galleries of trusted institutions. We work with them a lot in terms of communicating the possibility, acting as demonstrators and talking to people about even the small actions that people can take, so I think the possibility of using our historic environment assets in a state to try and support the wider transition for the private sector, I think, is shouldn't be overlooked as the importance of that, so it's just an opportunity I identified. I just wanted to wade this book around. It's time to commend to you all the work that Historic Environment Scotland has done. This is their guide to energy retrofit of traditional buildings, and I think that it should be required reading, because it does explain what is possible. I would say that some of the right conversations are now definitely happening around that subject. There was an energy efficiency skills matrix created that put a reference to a qualification at Historic Environment Scotland on traditional buildings, and highlighted the importance of contractors who already mainly have good baseline skills there, but there is a short amount of upskilling needed just to make sure that they focus on the right area. The conversations are also happening with national construction partners. I think that there is probably greater awareness now because of the retrofit agenda than there ever has been before on the importance of fabric first, but also on the importance of it being suitable measures and making sure that they have the right skills within that workforce to make the choices. I don't know if there's been some work getting done on building databases at different places. Again, other people could pick up more detail on that, but definitely the right conversations are happening. However, it's how that then gets translated as another question. I suppose that I've also related to the point, but I'm not precisely answering your question there, but what we've been doing with the natural heritage sector is very much tied back to our historic built environment. We've been developing a green finance model with NatureScot, which is innovative ways of supporting new natural adaptation, natural capital programmes and, interestingly, quite a few of those urban ones look at, for example, rivers running through towns, the cost of flooding, how that's managed. It's looking back at how they were historically managed and reinstating that. There are opportunities around a number of historic buildings and the estates around those to take advantage of green finance more in the future. We talked about mainstreaming and thinking about what's going on in the natural environment world and how that can be applied to the physical built environment estate. Yes, we're focusing very much on buildings today, but they sit in a place, and that place has a role in impacting carbon capture but also biodiversity growth. Of course, they're the two different sides of the crisis there, so we should be trying to think in a holistic way what the built environment can bring on those fronts. Just to come back to mark around the comments around tourism in particular, so from an aviation perspective, obviously aviation is a significant emitter of carbon and we recognise that. The challenge we have is the UK being an island, so there is a balance around the requirement for our visitors to get to us and they will do that by air, but we're also there to promote other options as well. We do also focus on the UK as a key market for us and any of those overland opportunities that people can travel. I think for us, the focus where we feel we can make the biggest difference at the moment is around the quality and the impact that people have whilst they're here, so that is around travelling over land, longer stays, so if you are travelling from overseas and you're flying in, how can you make sure that you make the most of your trip whilst you're here? Coming back to the historic environment and really just to highlight that we're aware that there are a number of attractions that are struggling with the challenges of energy costs due to the fabric of the building, so the example that I'm aware of within my region is Discovery Point, for example, which is a key asset in terms of our RS discovery. However, the fabric of the building, the actual visitor attraction, is very poor because it was built in the 1980s with low insulation, so they have a real challenge in terms of upgrading their fabric of their building in order to continue to provide the interpretation for the historic asset that they have, which is the boat. From a Visit Scotland's perspective, I suppose I really just wanted to highlight the work that we're doing in a couple of areas. One is around Destination Net Zero, which is a programme that we're working on with the three enterprise agencies and Scottish Government to try and provide, to look at the tourism industry as a whole and how we can start to reduce or move that transition towards net zero, both as an industry, but also what advice can we provide to businesses? Some of that is around climate action planning, we're working with destination organisations to help them to understand what they can do in destination as well. There's a huge range of activity that's going on, and that feeds into the historic environment. I think in terms of the strategy that shows where those interlinkages are between the transition to net zero within our place, our future strategy, but also how that is interlinked with the national strategy for economic transformation and all the other plans. There is real alignment there, and I think it helps to focus our attentions on things such as climate change and the transition to net zero. I'll just come back to the previous question that we asked in a different way. I think that yesterday's autumn statement is being read now, and one of the implications is a real further crunch on public services, especially on 27-28. Given the pressures that people are talking about, it's about how rigorously people are examining other options. I understand the point that was made by also about if you have an attraction at your open, it can be long-term cost, and it might not quite attract the numbers that you want. In relation to Alexander Graham Bell's birthplace around the corner, you've just seen established the Johnny Walker visitor centre, which is doing great guns, and that's taken over the entire House of Fraser building. I think it is possible, but it's whether we properly are exploiting, if that's the right word, some of the assets that we have, and it's something in our papers called intangible cultural heritage. I'm not sure if this relates to it, but two other quick examples. One in Stirling the Smith Art Gallery Museum discovered they had the world's oldest football. Instead of keeping it on a dusty shelf, they brought it out. They had international satellite news feeds from around the world that came outside the Smith. They then went to Hamburg for the World Cup and it came on, even though Scotland weren't there. It came on at the start. Huge influence, or we took over William Wallace's sword over to New York. It had huge response for that at the Wallace monument. Visitor figures went through the roof, so it's whether we're rigorously examining the other opportunities. I think that it's maybe particularly in museums, although we had a evidence session with some library representatives. I mentioned the fact that the central library in Edinburgh is sitting next to where all the witches were executed in Greyfash Bobby, and you could try to exploit that. Given how the pressure we see on public services are people satisfied that we are sufficiently and rigorously looking at other alternatives to generate some of the funds to allow the other things that we want to do, because my fear is that the public resources just won't be there to the same extent in future. Maybe I'll say first of all— Can I maybe just put supplementary on to that before we bring people in to answer it, Keith? Obviously, our predecessor committee had tourism as part of it. We don't now, but we have made major events under the cabinet secretary and also the diaspora strategy of the Scottish Government, which has been talked about, that reach. I just wondered if we could all have a little bit about how people are looking to that strategy, although this session is about the environment strategy, but how those things have been linked up. I'll go to Lucy first. I think that organisations have been really creative, certainly from museums and galleries perspective, but beyond that of thinking really creatively and innovatively over the years of different ways to unlock wider audiences. I think that there's also about the storytelling that you can do, and that's a brilliant example from the Smith and the football of what are the stories that there are in our collection that enable us to engage audiences in different ways, and that's absolutely core to the mission of museums and the energy that they have. I would say that that is still a resource question at the end of the day, because actually looking after your building and the space that you have at the moment is a challenge in itself, so animating those displays and changing them and updating them is absolutely something that we need to do, because you need to keep refreshing that to tell new stories as visitor expectations change, as our expectations change around what is being represented in our museums and so on, but I think that creativity of looking for those ideas of what might engage is definitely, there's a lot of passion around that. It was really interesting, mentioned, made of the intangible cultural heritage side of things, so these are the culture, the traditions, the craft skills, the language and all of the things that go there, that aren't actually the museum object, but they're things that bring that to life and the living practice and so on that goes on around those objects and tells those stories and keeps that alive, so that there's a lot of new discussions around intangible cultural heritage, which we're hoping that we hear that there's an intention coming or new activity around the UNESCO convention around intangible cultural heritage, so Museums Gallery Scotland has been very active in this space and we're the first accredited advisor to UNESCO in Scotland or indeed in the UK on intangible cultural heritage, so that is an exciting part of where we can bring the current practice and activity and living tradition and so on together to create those new activities, new stories and bring things to life again in new ways and bring a new audience in, so I think there are those opportunities there, I think museums are very good at looking at that, I think the storytelling aspect's really a vibrant opportunity, I think that the Year of Stories was a really good example of that, where a lot of community organisations engaged through the Year of Stories Communities Fund, as well as the larger events that were run with support from Scottish Government, from National Auto Heritage Fund and Museums Gallery Scotland to invite communities to tell new stories and stories that had been lesser told stories about their communities and their places and that had a huge impact for actually quite small levels of investment, so those were really small grants in communities and what communities could do to bring those things to life, so there is a huge amount of appetite for that, some of that doesn't take large amounts of resource to be able to support that volunteer effort that can do that, so I think that was a really strong example of the evaluation for that, it's really powerful from the Year of Stories and the impact that that had, so yes, it's a good seam that we should continue to tap and to support. Caroline, go to Caroline in the room first, are they not in line? Thank you. At the National Auto Heritage Fund, one of the requirements for the projects that we support is that they're financially viable, not just during the delivery phase, but we spend a lot of time looking at the longer term sustainability of the projects that come to us, so we've seen some really interesting examples of that entrepreneurship that you touched on earlier, so one that springs to mind, and I think Neil, I'm taking you around tomorrow, Paisley Museum, where they've looked at their collection, their textile heritage collection, which has got the most beautiful collection of pattern books and have worked with the fashion industry to both monetise that in some instances, very restricted and carefully curated instances, but also look at how those relationships that are built can benefit local art students and artists to help them to develop connections and knowledge of the fashion industry. That kind of thinking is something that museums have got to do perhaps a bit more of in terms of thinking about what's sitting in their collections, but they need the support to do that, and that's where working collaboratively with, say, Scottish Enterprise, Visit Scotland and others to exploit and to bring the expertise in to enable that to be done well and appropriately is critical. I also use to touch on those small community heritage monuments, for example, that maybe don't immediately illustrate that financial viability, but I think we've got some great examples like Sky Eco Museum, where you have a landscape with a number of interesting assets and they've been strung together in a trail, which then draws visitors, encourages them to dwell for a greater amount of time learning about the local, the locally interesting and intriguing stories that are there, but by collating them you've made enough of an interest for a tourist to make that journey and do that, do that, Rudin. I think that's potential when we're looking at things like Scotland's rural churches, pilgrimage tourism, spiritual wellbeing is an area that I think there's potential to look at in greater detail, so there are some really great examples of that entrepreneurial creativity within the boat environment sector, and it's just making sure that the support is there to make sure that it's done well and done appropriately. Caroline? Thank you. Yes, for me, this is around telling the story and looking for opportunities to tell the story well, and I think we might have a historic building, but there are numerous stories that we can tell, and I think often it's around the people who run the building, but also for the likes of us at Visit Scotland, we're always looking for those hooks such as the oldest football that helped to put Scotland or to put a place or to put a community on the map. Some examples are around the themed years and how the themed years give us that opportunity to get everybody talking about the same subject, whether that's stories, whether it's coast and waters, whether it's history and heritage, so they are a real opportunity for us to really shine a light on the historic environment, for example. The other opportunity is around people and using our people and often our historic people, so Andrew Carnegie and Dunfermlyn, for example, is a really unique opportunity to use the fact that he was born and grew up in Dunfermlyn with the links across to the diaspora in America, and that's certainly something particularly looking at Forbes and the link across to Pittsburgh, so there are all those opportunities that we can make both from a cultural perspective but also from our perspective for encouraging people to come and visit and Burns is another excellent example there. A couple of other things are around anniversaries and how we can use anniversaries to tell the story and to refocus on a particular building or a particular event, declaration of our growth being one which is an intangible piece of paper but actually gave us an opportunity to look at our growth habit again, to look at the place, to encourage people to go and visit that part of Angus, so again using those as a shape and then finally I wanted to mention screen tourism and the opportunity that the using places in Scotland as locations outlander being perhaps the obvious one that not only encourages people to come and visit Scotland and places but simply from the screen industry perspective is actually rejuvenating and providing an income which is enabling some of our built heritage to continue to be used and to continue to be valued, so it's an excellent question. There are numerous ways in which we can retell the stories of our built and intangible heritage to help remind people just of the sort of the quality and the depth of stories that we've got here in Scotland and also the value of them, so yeah just to add in some examples there which I hope are helpful. It's another one of these situations where the screen industry is a real success in Scotland at the moment but again they need carpenters and they need builders and they need the electricians so it's also a squeeze on the sector. Kate you wanted to give in again. Thanks very much. I just wanted to pick up on some of the comments that Caroline had made around telling stories and actually the comments that Lucy had made about intangible cultural heritage because I've long campaigned for Gaelic to be recognised as an intangible cultural heritage by UNESCO and so I wanted to ask what role language has and Gaelic has in particular around the stories that we tell and I often get very frustrated about sort of more of a tokenistic approach where it's just a tick box versus an approach that sees Gaelic really embedded in the stories and how you tell the stories and I suppose that's another skill there for that you need to develop as part of your teams in terms of Gaelic speakers. So I'm just curious as to where you think an intangible asset like language sits alongside the stories you tell about buildings. Caroline? Yes. Should I come in on that one? So we're in the process of developing the Gaelic tourism strategy which I understand is due to be launched shortly and I hope that that provides an indication of the commitment to ensuring that Gaelic and tourism are joined together. I've just been working in Glasgow with the Glasgow tourism strategy and again we've had a conversation around how Gaelic can be woven into that around things like Celtic connections for example you know a huge number of Gaelic speakers in the city. I stay over on the east coast in Fife and speaking there with the amount of Gaelic work that's going on there looking at the links between place names and Gaelic. So I think there are opportunities to make sure that Gaelic is embedded within our culture which it is and to make more of that we are seeing new products coming forwards from a visitor perspective in terms of people are looking. Can you hear us Caroline? I'm sorry Caroline, we've probably lost you for the remainder of the time but if you want to be back in writing to Ms Forbes and the committee that would be really helpful. Does anyone else want to come in on that area Lucy? It's just some really interesting practice in museums now about and those who are able to do their re-displays about putting Gaelic first in terms of where they are providing dual language interpretation. I think it's part of recognise the individual character of any place so Gaelic Scots about using bringing in the things that add colour in that storytelling and that represent those unique places which I think is increasingly an appetite for from visitors to really understand that all places are different and that identity is often captured in a museum in Gaelic or other historic sites and to be able to recognise the special nature of that. So we are promoting it as far as we can. Again there are some resource questions, there's a really interesting project. We've funded for a number of the Highland museums to get together to have a joint Gaelic development officer so it might not be possible for any one organisation to be able to afford to do that if you're a small museum but by coming together they've pointed one Gaelic development officer that's supporting a number of different museums around a regional forum so I think that's quite a useful model as well where we can look at partnership approaches to sharing the resource to be able to promote that kind of activity and then for that to be a demonstrator to inspire others to do that kind of thing. You've all talked about today the ambitions of the strategy and I think that's very clear that there are ambitions for each and every one of you in your sector but these will only be realised if we have the actions and the framework and the delivery that is appropriate to find that. We've already identified just discussions and the information you've given us and you've written submissions that we have a skill shortage, we have funding support issues and we have investment that's required. So I suppose it all comes down to how each of your organisations are planning for the medium and long-term financial support and the investment that you have for the future because the only way that those ambitions will be achieved is if we can square that circle and you all want to thrive and survive but it would appear that we are at a crossroads. Many of your organisations are at that stage where the next step is it could be a challenge. We already know that there are challenges out there but it could be a bigger challenge depending on where you take your organisation and where you want your organisation to be. So, as I say, for me it's about your medium and long-term financial support and investment and what you need to ensure that you do thrive and survive from the strategies that we've set you. I don't know who wants to kick off that first. Thank you very much. It's a challenge for any organisation. We're a very small organisation. We're between three and four FTEs. We support a wide number of members across the sector but we are reliant currently on funding from Historic Environment Scotland. That's around 1992 per cent of our funding, so extremely reliant. We're currently in a three-year funding cycle. Prior to that, it was individually year on year. As with many organisations across the sector, we are dependent on how larger agencies and NDPBs are funded. I will not go into the fine detail because I appreciate that you have examined the culture budget recently, but those challenges apply to ourselves and to a number of other organisations. We also are very keen to look to the future. We are 20 years old as an organisation this year and we have been funded through Historic Environment Scotland or Historic Scotland previously for that entire time, but we are not complacent about that. Recently, we have received funding from the National Australian Heritage Fund to examine our own operating model to look at new ideas, to look at the innovation that you were speaking of to see what is possible for us within the sector, but as a third sector intermediary. A lot like funding maintenance, it's not that sexy. There aren't that many people who fund third sector intermediaries because our delivery is foreign with the sector rather than foreign with individuals or communities. That is our role, but it does make challenges. We very keenly plan for the future as an organisation, but I would say that the long-term funding cycle across culture is something that we would be keen to see as an organisation because we understand quite keenly why those benefits would be felt. From a national perspective, I suppose that what we ultimately look at is the growth of our membership. Our members help to sustain the organisation and within our 10-year strategy, we have targets to achieve that. In order to do that, that means that we have to continually be relevant to the audiences and to grow new audiences as well. That is absolutely critical within our new 10-year strategy. That relates to the points that were being made about storytelling and really working hard at trying to look at our assets in different ways so that we can tell stories that are relevant for a whole range of population and then from there, hopefully, engage them in conversations on the benefits of membership. That is really one of the bedrocks to our growth strategy. When it comes to the—we have a conservation deficit on the estate and we also have a need to invest in the estate, we would be looking to approach a whole variety of different grant providers for that. We have a fundraising department that works incredibly hard, both here and overseas, to try to tap into all sources of funding. Again, it is about what stories we can say through our actions that might engage new audiences that might be prepared to give. One of the key things that remains is just looking after the built estate and maintaining that in a good condition and improving our cyclical maintenance that relates to the challenges that we are facing with regard to climate change. That is a very real financial challenge for the organisation and from a skills perspective as well. It is an area that we work really quite hard on. As Elsa said, the committee has looked at this long and hard. Although we are the national development body for the museum's gallery sector and we are the lead body for a seven-year strategy that we have just launched, we are on a one-year funding cycle. We do not yet know what our budget will be for next year. That is an enormous challenge, which has been sort of explored before. We are an organisation of about 40 people, but there is almost no one in there that we have more than one person working on that. The responsibilities that we have had, and I have been with the organisation for just a bit more than four years, there is more and more that we are asked to do and that we want to do. We are taking on responsibility to support the sector in fair work, to support the sector in a move towards net zero, so it feels like the ask of us and the need from a sector that is very fragile from us is increasing while we are struggling to manage to do all of that. The ambition is there, the importance of things like working in partnership and collaborating to be as smart as we possibly can with those resources. There is a lot of effort that goes into that, not commitment to that, but when your funding cycles are a real challenge. I was just going to come in as a funder of her, so I suppose that investment is our bread and butter. That is why we are here. Our funding, of course, has to be additional to Government. That is enshrined in the Lottery's Act, so we can provide project funding for things above and beyond core government responsibilities. We have tried, in recognition of the issues, flagged today to lay out a much longer-term strategy this time. For the first time ever, we have discussed the 10-year strategy, which we hope the clarity of our strategic objectives over that time will enable partners to see how they can hook into that funding and access it. I think the pandemic did require us all to work much more collaboratively, and that has stayed. We are working to collaborate as much as we can to work as efficiently as we can. It is challenging to maintain that, but it is very important that we do that. In my written evidence, I have cited a couple of examples where, by working with, for example, Historic Environment Scotland to align the timing of our funding, we were able to make sure that we channeled significantly greater resource into particular priority areas. It would be good to see that moving forward. I think that the staffing that Historic Environment Scotland is bringing to the strategy will enable that to happen in a way that has not, before I am optimistic, around that. However, there is no getting way for us, as a funder, who can put forward, say, a five-year package that the annualised funding for the sector makes it very difficult for them to take advantage of the investment that we want to put in and, in some ways, a constraint on the sector being as ambitious as it could be and accessing the other pots of funding that are out there. For us, that would make a tangible difference if there was some way of dealing with that, the short duration of the commitment there. Thank you. Caroline, I think that you are sound. I think that we are working again if you want to pick up on the points from earlier. It is okay. Thank you. It does seem to be working, but we can put something to the committee in the interests of time. Thank you. I bring in Donald again, please. Thank you. It is a rather specific question about community asset transfer, and it picks up, Caroline, on things that you have already said and what you said on your submission. However, the strategy of our past-all-future estimates that around one-third of all community asset transfers since 2015 have involved a heritage asset, which I was both pleased but surprised to read. That seems very high. In your submission—in a national lottery heritage fund submission—I think that you say and make the point about support for longer-term support for community asset transfer beyond simply acquiring it and transferring it to the community. This committee actually had very similar evidence during our culture in the community's inquiry. We heard from volunteer Scotland who said that some people in the communities often feel obliged to take on a heritage asset for fear of it being lost to the community. There are then considerable challenges about maintenance and so on. I wonder if you want to expand on that further, given the importance. It is so impressive, the appetite that communities have to take on assets, and I think that it really shows the passion and emotional connection that they have to their historic places. However, sometimes those community groups can be unaware of the challenges, the financial burdens and the expertise that are needed to manage them in a long-term way. While challenging, it is more straightforward to pull together funding for the capital works, but the longer-term management maintenance and financial management can be a real difficulty. It would be helpful for us to think about more at those early stages and make sure that there are skills and longer-term resourcing in place to enable that to happen. Many asset transfers happen in places where there is not easy access to the financial skills and the architectural skills that are needed to maintain the assets. In central about, they are quite spoiled. I am not saying that there are not challenges, but there are more architects. There is more volunteering available, whereas, often in more remote rural areas, people are volunteering on a whole host of different organisations, including the asset transfer. The specific built environment skills that you need to maintain a historic asset are few and far between anyway. We have just been talking about all the skills that they need in terms of maintaining the structure, but also knowing what to do about that. There is a cash issue, but perhaps there is also a skills issue whether there could be a skills bank or a sense of excellence where community asset transfer communities could dip in to pull out the knowledge that they needed at the time that they needed. There is something just about giving a longer-term safety net to ensure that they really are successful. The reason why they have been community asset transfers is that, because they are so important, they really perform a function for those communities. We need to make sure that that functionality and that activity cannot be maintained so that we do not just have an empty shell that is not actually delivering all the benefits that the communities want to see. Do not get me started on this. I will bring in Mark. Sorry, I forgot what it was going to be. Yes, unless there are others who want to answer that question, because I thought that was a good question. It has raised quite an interesting area. Okay, I will now go back to Brian. I just wanted to talk about the future proofing. It is sense building on what Caroline has just said. I am a trustee of historic churches Scotland, which used to be the Scottish redundant churches trust. At the moment, we are responsible for eight churches. We do regard it as a success story that we have repaired with, granted, several of our churches. They are used for different things and we have a major project under way at St Margaret's formerly Episcopal Church in Braymar, which was linked recently to a pilgrimage visit by the Hungarians. The problem that we have is that each church has a friend's organisation, but you have to keep refreshing the friend's organisation. It is where those skills come from, where it is the time commitment of the locals. It tends to fall on one or two, whereas you hope that it will fall on the many. The most recent church that we have taken on in Orkney has an active friend's organisation, which is the next generation dam. They are immensely enthusiastic and raising money, but it is how we mobilise the next generation to bring both their governance skills, their time commitments and their fabric knowledge to the benefit of, in this instance, churches, but it could be any community asset. As soon as you started talking about the volunteers that I reflected on her visit to Orkney, the message was that everybody wore ten hats in Orkney, and there was kind of like volunteer fatigue and capacity and issues, because it tended to fall on the same people over and over again. Bring Brian in. Just to reiterate some of the points raised there, we are often approached by the different organisations just to give maybe advice on running an asset that might be sitting in the community, but the range of skills required to do that, you know, you have skills required for marketing, for fundraising, for compliance, for daily operation, for long-term maintenance, they are not easy to hand particularly in rural environments. I point you to an organisation such as the Heritage Trust Network, which tries to connect communities to expertise and communities that might want to try to take a bit more ownership of a redundant building. Networking organisations like that are very, very positive. I think that when it comes to, so to say, if there is an asset that is potentially of interest to a community, but requires investment or adaptation, often the building preservation trusts that exist around Scotland are very useful organisations that come into there as well, but they are quite a fragile resource at the minute. They tend to live through limited Historic Environment Scotland funding on a year-on-year cycle and tend to be a little bit fragile as well. So, there is probably something about just trying to make these areas more robust. A very specific question is about world heritage site designations. We obviously have a range of world heritage sites in Scotland at the moment, but I was interested in the potential for further designations and, if there are any reflections on that, I know that St Andrews has been discussed and mentioned in the past, but there might be other candidates. I am happy to. I am not aware in terms of the—or I am not able to comment specifically on new sites that are coming forward. However, the one opportunity I would use is to talk about the UNESCO Heritage Trail that Visit Scotland developed with UNESCO and many other partners. Scotland is unique in the fact that we have 13 sites in Scotland, but we had never in the world had they all been brought together under one trail. I think that this was another example of where we could tell the story of Scotland's heritage, both natural and cultural, and built. It has been hugely useful in terms of the reach both in Scotland, but in the UK, but also internationally and as one award. Scotland is good at looking at things differently. I think that the additional world heritage or the UNESCO designation that is coming through to join the trail at some point will be Perth as a city of craft. There is an opportunity to bring them in board. I know that Fawr Senard is waiting for its status as well. We are looking at how we can tell the story better around things like world heritage sites, for example. Others will probably have views on new sites and the management of them. I hope that that provides a tourism example of where we are using our assets to help with that diaspora story. Can I ask a final question? It is from your submission where it was about the recording of the metrics and measuring success. You said that it was quite vague in the strategy. If you could expand on that, what has been a theme in our previous work and everything that we are doing is the wellbeing economy and wellbeing being embedded into cultural activity and whether there are metrics there around the wellbeing KPIs that are there, too. I think that our comment was in response to the previous open strategy, which on paper achieved a great number of its outcomes. A lot of them are around stakeholder engagement and collaboration. I think that the outcome relating to an improved condition of our built environment remained at red. I think that there is something around about us making sure that we keep our eye on bigger prizes with regard to future KPIs. For example, we do not have any condition indicator for the nations A, B and C-listed buildings. We have anecdotal evidence to say that the condition of them may be deteriorating, but we do not really have any transparent information. I think that sharpening some of the new KPIs into the new strategy along those lines might benefit. I use a parallel with regard to—it is very difficult when it comes to the built heritage and to talk about it in emotive language. It surrounds us all the time. However, if you look to the natural world where species are on danger lists, it is very easy to articulate that risk. I think that we do not quite have the tools available to do that quite yet as a sector, and that might be something that I think we would welcome for developing KPIs. I think that the previous strategy had a number, a high number of KPIs, and that in itself was seen as a challenge. My understanding around where the current development is around measuring success for this challenge was to ensure that we were not making a long list of things to try and measure against, because that in itself takes time and resource, which can be difficult. However, I would say that what we measure and how we measure it has to be collaborative. Previously, there have been challenges, because of time and resource, that some of the measures have maybe come directly from Historic Environment Scotland, which is understandable in certain aspects regarding their estate. However, it is ensuring that the measures that are put in place are suitable for organisations of all scale, because I think that the range of scale of organisations across the sector is perhaps something that we have not quite emphasised yet. We have spoken about communities and the challenges from community groups, but the number of organisations and the scale of those organisations is incredibly variable, but it will take all of them to be able to see themselves reflected in the strategy and in the outcomes and those measures. I think that there will be some work to be done in that regard to narrow those down, but I am aware that the team involved is mindful of that. I am optimistic. Can I thank everyone? It has been a long session this morning, but it is really, really helpful. Again, thank you not only for your attendance, but for the submissions that we have put in beforehand.