 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am very happy to be joined by my old friend, Mr. Barry James. Very welcome to the podcast Yes, you're one of the last living students of George Lawrence Stone the amazing teacher PAS Hall of Fame Educator and I would say most famously the author of stick control, which is kind of one of the gold standard drum books You're exactly right. Yeah. So today you this is very exciting have just released recently a new book that It's it's by Barry James with Joe Morella, which we'll get an explanation of that here shortly And I'll let you you you start telling us but it is called counting stick control the key to understanding Counting and playing the exercises in stick control the classic drum method book by George Lawrence Stone So Barry take it away. Tell us all about this brand new book. Well, you it's interesting of Bart in that When I first thought of I talked about the book. I had gone to a clinic The dead has having been done by Joe Morello He was brought into Orlando to do a clinic here and all the local drummers both amateur and professional people across all wanted to see Joe and and they went to the clinic and I went as well And then he got me who brought him and said hey, by the way, we got another We got one of your stone buddies in the audience and he pointed towards me And and Joe looked at me and of course Joe was blind. So he he had some problems there But he pointed at me and said afterwards now. I want to talk to you afterwards So we did that and on the way out after he just knocked everybody out with his clinics, you know And to see Joe Morello do a clinic. It's it's like, uh, wow You know, how how does he do that? You know, for example, he'll uh, one of his clothing Politrics, I call it, you know, is that he would have somebody in the audience say pick on pick a number from one to 12 And somebody would yell out 11 So we stopped playing 11 beats to a measure, you know on the snare drum with his right hand You say you play 11 and count them one two three, you know, so you would know you were at 11 one You didn't accept the one little bit so that you would know you're back to the one again somebody else name another You know, uh, number from one to 11 somebody would yell eight So then he'd take his left hand and start playing eight along with 11 You know, he's playing and then somebody else pick a number well three Okay, three with his right foot and then you know, seven with his left foot And he's playing four different time signatures at the same time He limbs and I'm saying what is this, you know, I it just blew everybody's mind away What did he do split his skull in four places and using Using one for each each each number. No It was just that he had complete control Over over whatever he played and this this is what stone used to call and Joe called in his books polyrhythm We can play more than one rhythm at a time Using another another limb, you know a different limb and so and he's a master of that and you know I I I made the foolish mistake of asking me on the way out the door. How'd you do that show? Oh And and he laughed and we got a good laugh out of it. Anyway, we were walking out He invited me to go for for a coffee at his hotel with with Danny and Danny's wife of Beth and so a few of the other guys that came Long distance to see if like and of course Coffee at his hotel is usually being a little hooch. You know, we'd have to have a little hooch Sure, that's where we went and we were walking down the driveway towards towards the cars We were going to take us to that hotel and and Joe said to me look Barry have you ever had a situation where you're doing a private lesson or you're doing a group lesson or clinic or something And somebody says to you how do you count? You know page 46 of the stick control book. I've never been able to figure out how to count it And I said all the time I get that everywhere I go every time I get a new student or get a you know A professional student and he says yeah, I said, you know, he said we're the only ones in existence right now Joe was still living obviously and uh, he said we ought to write a book on how to play the book Because nobody knows how to play the book except for the stone student And we're the only two stone students living this far. Well at the time Big first was living but he was in his own bag, you know, making selling drumsticks and so on So I said you you want him? He said, yeah, I want him. He said, but here's the thing I uh, you know, I'm blind. I can't do any of the, you know, any of the studies on this thing I said, I'll do all the research as long as we can Come up with the answers as to how stone common these exercises and stick control after all It's a book of ours and L the entire stick control book, which is the best selling technique book for drummers ever ever It's still after you know, they was written in 1935 And it's been selling anywhere from 22 to 25,000 copies a year. Wow year For all those years with very little advertisement that the stone family has taken it over It's still the family. It's the family treasure, you know, yeah And uh, so we wanted to, you know, get their permission to do something and we said, let's let's do a book on how to count the book Because nobody knows how to count the book. Well, when I first talked to Barbara Haney's stone granddaughter She says we know He says because most people who buy the stick control book never finish it because they can't count it There's no counting the book. There's no counts at all. It's just ours and L rights and left Well, if you're a mechanical engineer, you might be able to figure it out, you know, using all the You know, eighth no count 16th no count and quarter note triplets and so forth Yeah, you can figure it out But let's get it from the man himself And I said, you know, when I started with mr. Stone, he taught me all the count for stick control And Joan Murrow said yes, he did me too So apparently he was taking his private students and teaching them the count But, you know, didn't make it public knowledge Otherwise, there would have been a lot more people that finished stick control I also asked some of my students and some of my Teacher friends, you know, I said on average. I said, how many people who start the stick control book finish it? Oh 20 percent Uh 11 percent, you know, uh, what they they finished up to about page, uh, 19 19 That's not going through the book, you know I'm gonna do that and the way you learn stick control and the way you learn how to get good solid technique Is to play the book as written all the way through no skipping because I don't know how to count it So that's what Joe and I decided to do. We read a book on how to play the book And that's and that's exactly how it came to be except we got way late a little bit Yeah, well that happens. Yeah, it happens. So we were we were both four years at the you know getting all the information from the stone library and and from the the A lot of the articles that stone wrote for modern drama magazine the union magazine He did a column a month and oftentimes he would mention He would mention the stick control book and the counting of a particular exercise But wouldn't go through the whole litany of Of each exercise, you know So Joe and I decided we would do that and we got into it and then as we were going through it We realized that there was a lot more material of stones in these columns that he wrote for the the union magazine the international musician Which is the the magazine that stone wrote for for almost 20 years And he would answer, you know Drummer's questions and that question came up quite a bit as to how do you count a particular exercise on a particular page and stick it And so we decided to write the book. We started writing the book I went to new york to the to the archive and pulled out all I could find of the stone articles And then found out that barber hains had those in a nice clean form and was able to send them to me The granddaughter and so I had a nice clean copy But when we also found out that stone also wrote an article on drumming in general You know and how he taught the instrument in general We said we'd be better off, you know holding off on the book on on the count and getting into the book of Solos and and lessons by stone. Yeah, so we changed directions. We started writing the you know Just sort of Looking through all of the articles that stone published with the union magazine over the years And we started pulling them out looking for the most interesting one and doing them in stone's own words Rather than joe remembering what stone taught him about You know single paradigms We we made sure that when we did put that in in our book It would be in stones words not ours Because we're we're not teaching stone lessons stone is teaching them So the book is very authentic. It's called drum lessons with george laren stone. It's been published now since 2019 And it's a book that everybody should have they call it, you know the companion book the stick control and and the the stone family has honored me recently by putting the ad for The stones that lessons book the book I have there Uh on on the rear cover. They're advertising my book rather than so many other books by the publisher Sure, it's been it's been a wonderful Journey with the stone family. I feel like they made me a part of the family and they're wonderful people to deal with And uh, and they're doing so much now to save their grandfather's legacy That's how that came to be And when joe said to me Hey, we ought to write a book on how to play the book and then we said we agreed to do that. We started Calling each other on the telephone on sunday and in you know sharing ideas and sharing stories and all And then like I say about five years In and half the book done. We decided to change Positions and write a book it's first on the stone lesson lessons with george laren stone Full lesson with him and we thought that would be more valuable to start with Because you know stone's stick-a-troll doesn't follow that route It it basically follows the route of is how you play a nine stroke single is how you play a nine stroke double is how you play a nine stroke buzzroll and and uh, and That goes with all the rudiments. He taught you how to play all the rudiments. So, uh, that's what happened We ended up, you know Going going into the new book and unfortunately joe passed away and uh, and uh, I I didn't really have You know a lot of motivation to finish either book So that they just went on the shelf for a while and then guys like uh bar and uh And jason edwards and some of the other professional guys that I ran into And danny god leave and so forth they uh and and mario the cutest by the way And uh, they they convinced me to get my stuff back in and shake again and and and and do those do both of those books and I did So the first one came out like I said 2019 and it's a companion book the stick control But it teaches these the lessons that can be Garned from the stick control book in in just the way stone taught him to us But in stone's language not odd, you know, and that that's what was the beauty of the Of that first book and people call me all the time now when they order a book and they'll they'll say man Now I understand what stick control is all about because he's using the same concepts That he did to build the technique of a drummer, but he's using Root events to frame them and get them in the right spot. So That that worked out nicely and then more recently than that after joe passed away and After we did these the the book There's drum lessons with george stone Then I started working on this other book having to do with how to count stick control And my friend who's here today at tom book. He was very helpful to me because as you know, uh, I'm not going to weigh on this but I About six months ago. I was a Told that I had cancer of the liver And and that's been a problem, you know trying to do the medical thing Sure and keep and keep on top of that. Yeah, you must have more time, you know and and that's that's what I've been doing and Finally we we actually started talking to books you mentioned one of them And that's the one which which is hot account that he exercises and stick control Which tom here helped me write and finish and that's the book. We're here to talk about today It's so that you can take any exercises and stick control Let's just say as an example There's a section in there using single stroke roles To play a seven and a nine single, you know, so it's like and it starts off with a Set up number like one and two and and then if you want to play A nine over there. So it's one and two and three and a four and a one So tata tata tata tata one and two Tata tata tata tata tata and with all the different sticking involved. Okay. Let's do the same thing with double stroke rule One and two and Tata So you got a nice stroke rule. Let's do with the buzz while the buzzes need some sticks for Buzz buzz buzz buzz Reminding us as stone would do. Hey when you do a buzz roll, you don't have to play 16th notes You can play eight one and two and ba ba ba one Three and four and one well the three and four encounters two So that's just like playing three and a four and a one It's in a nine stroke roll. Well, most people most of students doing it and unfortunately Most professional drum teachers doing it have not a clue How to count that, you know, and it's a simple count It gets more difficult as it gets towards the end of the book when they sort of mix and match the Singles doubles and buzzes in in nines and 11s and 13s and 15s But at this point in time, it's a good way to start it off and to take each change of rhythm throughout the whole stick control book and you've got a Table of contents which takes you to the next one and the next one and the next one And all you have to do is if you want to complete page 31 of the book is to go to the table of contents 31 And it'll show you where the count is the stone counted and these are the stone counts They're not mine. They're not yours. They were taught to us by George Stone And George Stone for some reason as I said before was not really given to pass out that information to everyone uh, that he meets he basically kept that and he had what they call handouts He almost every lesson you go to he'd have a hand written page Of a handout of something that he was trying to get across just to his students. They didn't go anywhere else so I have a box of Of handouts from stones studying with stone for four years and um, and it's been a wonderful You know indoctrination for me and I realized On a couple occasions. I thought well You know, I've been teaching from stick control now for 30 years enough of that Let me try another book and so I do I won't say what book I tried But I tried them for two or three months went right back to stick control on every case Because I knew that the students could only get to that point where they had complete control over their hands Their fingers and in their arms If they do if they use the stone method to do it, you know, I know there are a lot of others the molar and so forth They're a wonderful thing You know, wonderful series of exercises as well But there's something about the stone movement And and and how how your hand who will be a finger move That is the period to anything that's out there. I know that because I've been teaching it for a lot of years Sure So, you know, you figured I started what I was Right out of high school when I was the young 17 18 years old and I've been doing it ever since and And I can tell you about and this is for everyone who's listening You know study any technique that you feel is going to be helpful to your genre of music But don't you know forget to play stone and play from stick control accents and rebounds in this new book on how to count the stick control exercises and and Right there you'll have enough chops enough technique that you could play any genre Anywhere using any hand at any speed and any volume. Yeah, it's it's just that easy, you know well, I think it's important to mention that Like when you go through stick control like you were talking about it before about how Uh, it is laid out in a way by George Lawrence Stone who is you know famous teacher There's a there's many great teachers, but him in particular It's laid out start to finish in in a system that will get you where you want to go if you follow it and don't jump around and so you kind of just talked about it a little bit there a second ago, but Why would he not? I mean minus wanting to get personal students to come to him But is there a reason he didn't put the count Beyond just wanting to have to give out the handouts that it is just ours and L's. I mean, what is the actual was there really like a a reason that he would not include the count on on in the book boy That's that's a question of the century I don't know I I just know that you know, I Went to school of course with people who study with stone and they would get what I got You know, they were to get a piece of paper every every week when they went to the lesson It was another subject that he was on at the time and and and we would go home with it We would practice and come back and and apparently be able to play it. Well, sometimes yes, sometimes no and uh, but but Uh, if you were a student that was not a part of the university program and he you were Say a middle school or junior high school in those days student You know, you were paying for lessons just like everybody else was but for some reason or other Maybe it's because of the the young age of these these students that they didn't get the same handouts We got they get something a lot simpler to play, you know We'd be maybe stuck on the on the standard rudiments as example the paradigms for for three months or something and So I but your question is is something that I try to figure out for the longest time Why don't you just give everybody the same handouts? You know, and even though the kids were younger there were, you know, his students and And not as but not as private students if he went and taught in his school situation He didn't he didn't give anybody handouts then he gave him an hour lesson personal lesson and that was it um, so so yeah, he was he was someone somewhat uh, you know Not giving of of his personal Knowledge of how he wanted something and and it's a great question and I don't know the answer All I know is he didn't give the same handouts To all the students. Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, and I would say that having Both of them together stick control and your new book which the Book that you have which is counting stick control I mean at this point you are producing them and binding them and selling them and just so people know right up front with your Recent, you know health issues. I think it's just kind of if you're get this book it is not only extremely beneficial and Uh, dare I say like essential to really knowing that you're doing the right thing when you're counting this book and you're teaching from it But also, um, it's a really good way to just to help Barry and support him and Joe Morello It's just like it's just so much history and like I mentioned before about how it says by Barry James with Joe Morello I think it's great that you are Still including him because obviously he was a big part of it. You know what? I mean you guys did this together Yeah, um, which from what we've talked about over the years of just kind of talking about it would be You know long conversations, which you and I are accustomed to of just talking on the phone for an hour and then Just lose track of time, but um, have we have we missed any real good meals though? No, no, that's true But but but then you're the one who actually Boiled it down and then with the help of tom cook and I know You know you you do a lot of stuff with Jason Edwards. You you kind of bring people into your orbit Who really love spending time with you but but to kind of get it distilled down to this book is just super cool So, um, still lots to talk about but I just want to tell everyone this is pretty affordable and and honestly you It's not every single page from stick control that's included in this but you do get a lot of notes You do get a lot of the actual notation from stick control In this but it'll say like this is page 27 exercises 7 through 12 recounted like this Like you go back and forth and you work your way through it and um a lot of that was tom cook's idea to write general notes On the individual pages because it's about as close as a handout That we could have gotten to you know These general notes and and and stone Uh, you know, he was an old-fashioned gentleman. He had a very healthy sense of humor He would he could he could joke with you and then you know, pull it all back just like this, you know, he did He did have a uh, you know, even even in his newspaper column with the uh union magazine He had like words of wisdom for example, he would answer um people, you know drummers questions on That they mailed into the magazine and he would answer them and and pick them up so One I can remember says it's something about uh these these uh through drummers from milwaukee or supplies said, you know, mr. Stone We've been studying from stick control for a while and so forth But the truth of the matter is and I want you to either agree with me or not That it's not really necessary to learn the 26th at the time rudiments and he said we don't have to know any more than two We need to know the single stroke role in the double stroke role And once we know those two rudiments, we're all set. We don't need to know anymore and stone's answer was very simply He said well, that's true in a way. He said but how many words can you Can you put together if you only knew a and b? That's true And that must have just set them down wherever they were sitting. They must have sat down You know, yeah, it makes so much sense what he said Yeah, he didn't do it in a putdown way, but he just that's that the truth He's a teacher. Yeah, he's trying to teach them and not be mean to learn two two rudiments out of the 26th And you're all set really Well, let's try that. Yeah Yeah, I mean I get that sort of feeling of like Well, I only need to do this much, but it's like once you I don't know It's a little daunting at first to kind of get in to learn all this stuff and go at it and and but from my past Which again, I've been a bad student from having kids and moving and stuff, but taking lessons with you It is It can be like kind of as an adult. I don't want to say embarrassing But you're kind of like oh jeez I didn't learn this when I should have when I was younger and then when you're 30 and you're trying to learn stuff you're a little like It's like you've built Like a really good solid foundation of drumming and being able to play but there's still you can go back in and it's never too late I've learned to backfill and I I need to pick up my Exactly, but you and I have had this conversation before and and I tell you I don't care how old you are I I've had students that are, you know, four years younger than me. I mean in there They're 79 they're 68 there, you know, they're keeping up with me an age Who who decide they want to study now, you know, they move from the city and they move to a Golfing community here in Florida and they say well, I'm gonna play golf Well, that only goes so far and then they start saying yeah, I used to play drums when I was a kid Maybe I'll start taking drum lessons again And they do and all of a sudden they they have new meaning to their life Sure not in golf five days six days a week, you know, yeah Which which really bored them and and and because it's it's musical you see You know, you're talking about playing drums without the concept yet Not yet that you're playing a musical instrument and then everything you're going to play from now on is is an etude It's a musical piece that you're going to play and once you play it And you you learn it and you play it All of a sudden you own it and then you say wow, you know, I sound pretty good on that group and that group, you know Yeah, and there are so many good things that weren't there when I was a kid that you can play And in so many books, you know, I I remember telling mr. Stone I think in my second or third year with him. I said, you know I he was talking about getting ready for For recital in school and he said, you know, I've got I got to get you something on xylophone and marimba Because all the things you got prepared are under upset, you know, and we're gonna say well Tell you the truth mr. Stone. I just want to be a jazz drummer I I don't I don't I want to play in jazz bands and you know Show bands maybe but but I don't really want to play xylophone and marimba and I can't say that too Love but mario get mad with you but But you know, it was just the way I did and he said well, you know You you you're studying with me and I'm expected to teach you these instruments So I'm gonna have to find something you're gonna be able to play every cycle and he did he did He came back the next week. He said I found in a piece that's not too hard It it's a nice classical piece by claud w say And it and it's uh, oh, well, that's that he's a very fine, you know, french composer Okay, well, you're gonna play it on on marimba. So we go with the marimba and he said play this I messed it up, you know I I I didn't have the chops to play it and uh, so then he said we'll take it home We're gonna do eight measures a week and you know by the time it's over It's only a 48 measure tune. It's repeated. So he said I shouldn't have any but it's pretty soft It was called and I I don't know why this is coming to me now la la feel the shaloo The english translation is the girl with the flaxen hair By the time did you see and it was a beautiful piece of music and I Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And Small thing, you know And and I ended up playing it for my recital and everybody loved it. You know I I got I got more attention from playing Claude WC than I did from playing. Joe morello, you know Joe is wonderful it's to all drummers and And I feel badly for all the drummers who didn't get a chance to meet him because he was a hoop man. He was a character and had a wonderful disposition. And like most people, like yourself, I can tell you that the greatest philosophy that the great players have, maybe we'll have to think about Buddy Rich's, lay him off this typical one. But for the most part, every drummer that I know, every professional drummer I know who's at the top of their game, who really knows their thing, who will know when they look at the stick control book that this is the only thing they need now to figure out what the count is on, all these exercises in stick control. And you know they play stick control over and over and over again, most professional drummers. What are you playing this year, stick control? What are you playing next year, stick control? Now I'm gonna try playing it with my feet. I mean, if you had to, for people who maybe haven't used stick control or worked through it, which it really is one of those books where, I don't know, it's just kind of, it's on everyone's shelf. It's just kind of one of those things which you were kind enough years ago to send me this and syncopation, which I think syncopation is another one that's just incredible and a great book. But if you had to put it in its simplest terms, you know, what makes stick control, why is it the most, you know, the top selling, the best drum book? It's not, it's simple, it's just, it's, you know, it's hard to put into words, but why is it such a famous and iconic book? Well, again, you asked all these good questions. I think it's because there are so many examples, particularly drum teachers with young students who are very impressed, the students are very impressed when they hear the teacher play and the teacher will say, this is from stick control. I learned this by studying such and such a page or pages in stick control. This is what you can learn from stick control. It's considered, a lot of people call it the Bible of drumming, you know? And so when you get into that cusp, if you will, of being able to make progress with your playing just by doing the most minimal exercises and spending a little bit of time on stick control, you can gain far, far more than you put into it. You know, they say, well, you are what you put into it. Well, and then stick control, for some reason or other, you gain knowledge and you gain experience and you gain finesse on the drum set just by playing it over and over again a few times, you know, just by using the muscle memory that you have. And it's an easy thing to do, you know? Yeah, it sort of lays things out in a standard form that every professional drum teacher should know how to play and guess what happened. When the first time I was on your show and we were talking about the drum lessons with Stone, believe it or not, I started getting calls from people who wanted to take some lessons on the Stone method, you know? And I was happy to do that because that's what I do. I have more professional teachers studying with me than I have, you know, standard students. So we started doing that and I had, by the end of maybe two weeks, I had about 30 students from you that had heard your podcast. Awesome. And so I started taking them on, you know? And I would ask them, well, you know, I'll ask you the same question you just asked me. How do you play less than 46? And I'll page 46 and stick control. He says, university, university. I said, what? What the heck is that? University, university. This is a professional drum teacher now. This is the guy that teaches students how to play it. Yeah. I said, university, well, it could be in 5-4, I suppose. You know, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. But this thing isn't written in 5-4. How did you come up with that, you know? And, you know, embarrassingly, he said, look, I didn't have anything to go with. So he said, I just went with what I thought would work and I put the one, two, three, four, five by one, two, three, four, five, or one, two, three, four, five. You know, I would measure the distance between the notes and, you know, versus T, you know, versus T. You know, something like that. And way long, way wrong on a player. And you wouldn't want your student going out trying to play that in any way, shape, or form. Because it's wrong, it's just wrong. It doesn't sound right. It doesn't play right. You're gonna use the, I guarantee you're gonna use the wrong sticking, you know, in five notes. Yes, sir. We need an extra finger, an extra hand, you know? Yeah. And so, you know, it's best to learn it from the master the way he meant it to be. And, you know, just have to believe. I mean, really, I just, I quickly opened up. I went to your, the index, I went to the index and said, it said, you know, source, it said page 46. And then in your book, it's page 42 and you can go and look at it and learn. And it's like, it's very easy to use. It almost reminds me of like a, I don't know, like for lack of a better term, like a teacher's guide. Like the teacher's, you know what I mean? Like a teacher would have behind the wood kids would try and steal and get all the test answers and things like that. It's like the teacher's edition. So you can, you can just like have this. But I would say that it's not just for teachers. It's for anyone who wants to like, actually have a little bit of a greater appreciation of it. Exactly. And that's what I'm hoping for. Like I say, I'll give myself a little reminder here that even though I have the cancer and I'm fighting that, I'm still teaching. I'm still taking on students. And but what I'm doing with them is I'm doing them in monthly, four monthly lesson. And I have enough information and I have enough handouts if you will and so forth. And the book that will be given out with a lesson is the new book to go ahead and get a good, you know, professional drum teacher who wants to learn the thing correctly and I'll give them four lessons. You know, they'll be inexpensive, you know, and they'll allow him to be able to read the stick control book to his kids correctly. And that's what it's all about. Just trying to get everybody on the same page. Every drum teacher on the same page instead of everybody going off half hammered, you know? Or as Joe Morrill called it, sloshed. You can't have drum teachers out there sloshed. Yeah, yeah. So I just want everybody to learn the same method, the same count. And it's just, you know, the thing of it is, it's not hard. It's not a university, university thing. It has nothing to do with names of Rip Van Winkle or anything. It has nothing to do with it. It's all counted just as if you were to count a musical thing. If you were dealing in 16 notes and 16, 16 notes, one a yander, two a yander, three a yander, four a yander. It's 16, 16th note. If you say, yeah, I want a 17th stroke roll, okay. One a yander, two a yander, three a yander, four a yander, one, right? Yeah. It's not difficult, you know? Yeah. And then if you want them as in double strokes. Tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata. One a yander, two a yander, three a yander, four a yander. So if you sit trying to measure a numbered roll, I will call it numbered rolls, but that basic call them numbered rolls. And if you want to count it, or you can do it as singles, doubles and buzzes and you can all use the same count and all come out the same way or come out the same tempo of feeling. Now there are a couple of difficult parts. Remember that in this book or any book that you're gonna have, we're trying to measure the same distance between, let's say, and Stone did this a lot. He wrote in cut time and cut time is two, two time. It means two half notes to a measure if you wanna get down there like that. And so it's not like one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four. So that's four four time, right? And in the bass drum will be down, down, down. Tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata. Now, so that's four four time and everybody knows that time. Walt's time is in three, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, six, eight time is like a shuffle. Tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata. You know, if you wanna work on St. Patrick's Day or something. So, yeah, hey, I've done that. And so you've got that. So now all of a sudden the stone comes up with this concept through two time, two half notes to a measure. And it's called cut time and it's a C with a slash through it. It's like common time, four four, but this is gonna slash through it means cut time or two two time, two half notes to a measure. So now one, two, three, four, one, two, because you're only playing two, man, two base from notes to a measure. One, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four. So one and three, if you will, or one, two, one, two. Well, we heard it. Tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, you know, the old rag thing, the one to 1935 now, remember? But the two two time is this, you know? Well, how does that relate to the stick and throw book in many, many ways? Because there's a lot of exercises in there in two two and everybody's tried to play them in four four. And at the first part of the book, that's the single stroke rolls of five, six and seven in the book pages. And, and when you play those, you can play them with a four four touch on the bass drum. But they're the only place you can play them because everything else is one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, four, one, two, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, tata, sounds like Greenling Brothers Circus, right? Yeah. And that's exactly who it was in those days, you know? You're looking at an old book, but the old book gives you such pronounced answers to all of these questions about time and how time works with other time signatures, not easily known by people. It'll show it to you because in the End of Stone book, he does mix and mash the tempo. Yeah. He'll have it in the first measure, five stroke roll double. And then in the second measure, a seven stroke roll buzz, you know? And he does this all the time. And this is what makes him different from a lot of the other teachers that were out there. They can only teach you in one time signature at a time where Stone breaks it up. You take a look at the book that he did. I was actually in school with him when he, in taking lessons with him when he did this. It was in the late 1950s. And it was called Accents and Rebound. And there were two sections. The Accents section were exercised that Joe Morello wrote for him. And then the Accents and the Rebound section were how to play double stroke rolls in Stone's own version of them. And boy, and I hate to even throw this in there, but if you take Stick Control and the second book, the companion book, the other book we did, which was Drum Lessons with Stone. And then you took this compendium of counts for the Stick Control book. And then you took the Accents and Rebound book. Holy cow. It's a lot. You have a majestic, you know, set of technical rules and musical playbacks that you can use for the rest of your life. And it's just an amazing, amazing concept that Stone came out with. Absolutely. And we're happy to be a part of it. We're happy to continue the Stone tradition along with the family and so many others. And where you can get training in the Stone method that's gonna be complete and is gonna be accurate, you know, other than coming to study with me, which would be maybe more short-lived and long-lived, but still we can do that. Or, and I'll leave my information for anybody who wants it. But when we also get into the situation where all these drum teachers who have been faithful to those particular Stone books are now completely, completely comfortable with the way the Stone method works, the way it just follows itself perfectly. Like you said before, it seems to be right on level with the last page you did, you're just moving forward. You just see yourself moving a little bit further around as you go on, you know? You know, you go very far within one page or two pages, you get enough to cover the whole spectrum of singles, doubles and buzzes rolls and also all the flam exercises that you can work with. So it's a no-nonsense set of books. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable. You are the, you are really just bringing this to the public, all of this knowledge and just getting everything out there. But I do want to mention, because you did, you said, you talked about it a little bit. I took lessons with you for a while, but a lot of people from the show have joined up with you in taking lessons. But so you, as I said earlier, are the last, one of the last living students of Stone, there is a gentleman who you found out about later who is a little bit older, but if I, correct me if I'm wrong, you said he's not teaching. So you were the last living teaching. He was a youngster in a grade school, and I guess after Mr. Stone retired, he took on a few students in the band program at the local middle school, or junior high school, they call them those. And so he let me know that, you know, hey, you weren't the last student of Stone, I was. I was in the second grade. Oh man. I used to take a lesson on Wednesdays with him when he'd come to school and work with our band director. And I thought that was fantastic. Yeah, that's great. But I will say you are a, I mean, real deal, you're teaching as true to form as humanly possible to what Stone was teaching. And lots of people have come to you for lessons. And I want to mention that just right up front, and I'll put this in the description and everything, but if you want to take lessons with Barry, it's Barry James Drummer at gmail.com. If people want to get in contact with lessons to take lessons with you, that is okay, right? You're doing kind of- Absolutely. I like to do as many lessons as I can just get people into the basics of his technique. You know, he's got this level system that he came out with that really helped your stroke and your volume of playing when you do that. It's a whole different thing than counting stick control, but it is an important concept, you know? Yeah. And of course Stone used to say, you know, he had a poster in his studio that said, in order to play fast, you've got to start playing extremely slow. As a matter of fact, you have to play slower than slow. You have to play in slow motion and you have to play very consistently and quietly. And that's the only way you're ever getting speed on drum is not to play it fast and not to push yourself, but just the opposite. Yeah. You know, it's very slow and deliberate, you know? And you're playing. And I thought that's true. If I get Mr. Speedball in the studio and I'll say, well, let's try a single stroke roll, but don't go too fast. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, holy cow. You know, I said, well, slow it off, you know? But you know, and it's very true. The way you gain speed playing drum is to start slow and just gradually build up and not go no further up, speed-wise, and then your hands and fingers can handle. Otherwise you're defeating the purpose, you know? Yeah. Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. And when I took lessons with you, which I plan to do again, I actually, I hadn't, I've been pretty out of practice, but I was playing, I jammed last night with some friends. My brother on bass, a guitarist and a singer, and I was playing drums, obviously, and we were playing and it was like, it felt amazing to finally be playing for the first time in a couple months. Actually, I play all the time here, but like with other musicians, it's a different story, but we played a fast, kind of heavier one, and I was like, oh my God, I am out of shape with playing, because once you don't play for a while, you really feel it, like, you know, your whole body. But there's a way that you do the lessons that are very like, like we went through, and this was before you did the counting stick control book where it was, you would just tell me, and I would just write down simple little things, like, you know, the count on a couple little things that made, it's just like, it's like the clouds parted, and it just became, it's a, you have a great way of like simplifying things that when you do things alone, like even when we talked earlier, and you kind of said you do this, you count like this, it's easy. 16th notes, 16th, 16th notes, it's easy, but when you're alone and you're doing this or working through a book on your own, it can be very like, you get in your own head or you just do something wrong. So it's really, really helpful. Even like you said, maybe not for a long term, not taking lessons with Barry for 10 years kind of thing, but like, you I know are a big fan of getting people in, like, you know, four, eight or 12 weeks, teaching them the method, then they know what they, how to do it, then they're out the door. What I make sure that I do within that 12 weeks is to give them a list of things they need to move on to next and next and next, so that you've got a list of books, a list of, you know, flyers, a list of biographies to study from, you know, put them in charge of, and I do use Joe Morello's methods a lot. You know, once we get past the basics of stick control and everybody can play the stick control book and play it right, then we go into Joe's method study book and it's another game changer because it's based on stick control. It's the next step in stick control. And it's a beautiful book with Joe Rowe and it's worth every penny, but whatever I don't even know what he charges for now, but he just gave you all that additional information, fill in the blanks, you know? If you've missed something in the first books or the first in stick control or whatever, or in the lessons with Stone, you know, start up with Joe's books and you'll find the answer to it right there. You'll be there somewhere. Yeah. Well, all right, Barry. So, kind of as we get close to wrapping up here, before we say thank you to like, you know, a couple obvious people that I'm sure you want to thank, why don't we real quick first say, what is the best place to get the book and to maybe get in touch with lessons? I mentioned the email before, but maybe say it again and just, you know, again, best place to get the book, best place to take, reach out to you for lessons. OK, well, you can, what I'm doing is I'm doing some first editions of the book before we actually have the printed. So it'll say first edition of the book and we will, if they ask us to, we'll assign them for them, you know, so they'll have a signature on the book. I don't think they could catch a check with that, but, you know, at least I'll personalize the book for them. The next set of books will be, you know, paid for by the first set of books, you know, that we use. And if they like lessons, the same address of my telephone number is 321-297-3042, by the way, I've already gotten that call that you sent my way back from Germany. Oh, yeah. Each of them Germany, they want to study. And so, well, we can do a four week lesson plan and eight week lesson plan or a 12 week lesson plan. In 12 weeks for sure, I can get the student ready, you know, or the teacher ready to go at it himself and I can give him the right direction to go in, you know, so that he gets a, you know, a belly full of George Stone, you know. Sure. And boy, I'll tell you, once you've studied with this master, you realize as you go along and get more and more of his information in inside your head, boy, you feel superior, you know. Yeah. You feel superior to almost any other drug method that you'll ever study, whether it be in high school or college or anywhere else, you know. Yeah. It just works that way, you know. Absolutely. And so, yeah, so, and again, the guy just called me to hold the conversation. We talked about Stone for an hour. My wife said, are you coming for dinner? I said, no. No, I'm not talking about Stone. Well, that's great. So I'll put info for Barry, his email address. I think that's a good place to start and his phone number in the description for this. And then that's a great way to start and get in touch with him. Got the first, the signed first edition of the book and you can also get in touch with Barry for lessons. And then, you know, this is just kind of off the cuff, Barry. I was looking at the, your older book, Drum Lessons with George Lawrence Stone and there was a picture of George Lawrence Stone playing and it said, he signed it to you. And I just thought it was really nice. He said, Barry, I'm very proud of you. And that's what he signed it. And that nice, I mean, there's just a picture in the back. That was lovely, yeah. George playing the marimba. Yeah. Well, now that marimba. Pretty cool. Yeah, and he asked for something for, I don't know, put in my yearbook or something. Yeah. And he gave me that picture. I still have that picture. That's awesome. It's quite nice. It means a lot to get that sort of, you know, confirmation from your, from your like, you know, your teacher that like, yeah, okay. And I get, I feel that from you. And you say nice things to me about the show and all this stuff. It feels good to have someone who's such a respected drummer. Appreciate you. I will have to tell you this, then if you're listening then for anybody who just falls upon listening to this interview. This man that's interviewing me here, Bart, is probably the most cherished drummer now living because he has taken the craft of drumming and brought it home. Up to now it's been, you know, modern drummer magazine, which they love advertisements. And, you know, and other sources, you know, even the PASIC group that has a convention once a year can't be doing what Bart's doing because he's doing interviews with drummers about mutual, many, many different subjects, drum subjects. And he's doing them all the time on an ongoing basis. So, you know, what you get from this guy is a complete, you know, a complete story of drumming. Now I will have to tell you this, I have one student, he's an adult student now. He works for a local airplane parts, airplane parts company here, very large company out of here. And he takes him about an hour to drive to work every day. So he said, what I do is I bring my tablet along and I listen to Bart's show on the way there and on the way back. So he said, I listened to two shows a day. I've listened to every one of his podcasts so far. Wow. I said, really? That's awesome. I haven't done that yet, no? That's a lot. Yeah, he said, I listened to every one of Bart's podcasts and he said, I feel like I'm getting on a conservatory education doing that. Unbelievable. Well, thank you. Thank you to your student. And he's right. He's right. Well, that is super nice. I mean, I gotta say that whenever I get a compliment from someone like you, it's like it is a big deal just because you're the real deal. And I wish, you know, I talk about drums these days more than I play them, which is unfortunate, but I will get back to it. And to hear it from someone like you makes me just love the drums and everything. We're definitely gonna do it as soon as we can get it Harry to hold the sticks right. I gave him a drum lesson. I said, do you want to do a drum lesson yesterday? He's three. So he's really excited. He said, yes. And I started going, all right. Bass drum, snare, bass drum, snare. And then he grabbed the sticks and said, no, it's like this and started hitting the hi-hat. And he was playing like open handed and like this. And I was like, and I said, no, no, bass drum, snare, and he just kept telling me, no, it's like this. So I was like, all right, we'll, we'll try, we'll try a little later. He's a little young. That's right. No, I've had lots of students who try to tell me that I'm playing wrong, you know, and then they twist their hands all up and they look like they got a lot of tightness or something. And, and then I say, no, no, no, no, don't hold it like that. Yeah, this is the way, this is the way that's right. Cause they're only three years old. So they're given, you know. Yeah. Yeah, whatever. There's plenty of time. Barry, like I said before, a couple of people to thank you as we kind of get close to the end here, you can talk about them, but I feel like Jason Edwards and Tom Cook, and you, Jason Edwards, Tom Cook and I have all become a nice little crew. Obviously, I think of friends. We gotta get up and go to, go to one of Jason's concerts, he's a monster player. Only one thing with him, he plays a molar. But other than that, he's a hell of a player. Yeah, he's a monster drummer and a very nice guy. He's a monster drummer and a hell of a guy, and he builds a, he makes practice pads, those prologic practice pads. And I've never seen a practice pad as good as that, but I own the green with the green rubber on it. It's got a, its own rim built in. Yep. I mean, the first time I threw it down and it jumped back at me, that doubles the speed I threw it down at. I said, whoa, what is this? I thought I was going to hit myself right in the head. Yeah. Because it's so live, his pads are so live there. You know, and I've played the real field pad and the zillion pad and a lot of the other big first and so forth. But, but this is, this is the real deal. This pad, this prologic pad that Jason produces is the best, it's just the best. Money can buy right now. Definitely. And it just will help. Talk about some help, a little extra help from the gallery, you know, from trying to play some of those exercises from the Stan Stone book, the stick control book, using one of Jason's pads. And you'll find out just what playing drums is all about. Yeah. It's a little bit easier. And then also Tom Cook, who helped us. I mean, just across the board, Tom is a nice guy. Maybe Barry, you want to just mention a little bit about how Tom helped with putting the book together. We had, we were starting to work on this book here with the, you know, the changes than the stick control book, you know, the, all of the formulas that we're using. And the gentleman who was helping us at that time, you know, got a job or something and decided that he'd have to go that way. And Tom just took this thing over in the middle of the book and started writing the general notes and learned as much about it. He went so far as to learn how to use finale for goodness sake. Nobody does that. That's like learning Einstein's theory of relativity overnight, you know? Yeah. And, but Tom was able to do that. And he brought me the book in Yeoman's time. I'm still waiting for Jason Edwards, by the way. He's got a book coming out too. And we'll talk more about that next time. Sure. But, you know, Tom has been wonderful. He's been very helpful to me since I've been ill plus, you know, all the work on the book. He's a great, great man. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. By the way, he's a hell of a drummer. And I might say he studied with me, but he didn't, his daughter did. This was the thing when I had my studio his teenage daughter, he'd come in for lessons with me. Well, Tom used to sit in on here a lesson. I didn't know he was picking my brain. Getting free lessons. Yeah, he was getting free lessons all that time. You know, so I told him, I said, you owe me now, you better finish this book for me. Because I gave you four years of free lessons. And so he's playing now and he's got his own band and he plays around town here. And yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, he's a good man. Well, Barry, let me ask you the very last question and then I'll let you go is would they ever mix these two books, Stick Control and Counting Stick Control and just like add the count to the top of Stick Control and alter it? I mean, when I first mentioned it, the Barbara Haynes and Stone Granddaughter about, you know, you might be interested in publishing this book, maybe as an appendix to Stick Control. So they'd all be in the one cover, you know? And she said, no, she said, you know, you and Joe worked on this book and I think we let you have it. But, you know, we're very, you know, very careful as to who writes using my grandfather's, you know, his knowledge and his information. So she said, I want to see it first. And that's something that's my next step is to make sure that Barbara and the cousin get a chance to see this book and goodness, it can't be any any more important to them. You know, as talking to Tom on the phone this morning, you know, he brought up the fact that, you know, here's the thing, you know, you're going to bring this to the Stone family now for approval and so forth. But they have to remember that if they're going to buy this book or allow you to sell this book under the stone name, they're going to sell more Stick Control books. Just because of this book. Yeah, you know, because everybody that wants to have a Stick Control book and no longer has it, they're going to look at this book and say, well, now I can play the Stick Control book. Let me buy another one. And they end up they'll end up selling a lot more Stick Control books, I believe. Yeah. And it's a good possibility they will. Sure. Yeah. No, that's interesting. I mean, even as I said, I was like, well, it's nice. They said, no, you worked on it. We want you to sell it. And I mean, you're not doing this to make millions and millions of dollars. You're doing it really to keep making, like you said, the run. Yeah. But no, you're really, I mean, I think I've always understood from you that like you are just trying to get all this info out of your brain. And to as many people as humanly possible, which it's I don't know, it really it makes you want to play. Just talking to you makes you want to go practice stuff that usually usually I want to sit down on the drums and just play crazy, you know, messing around stuff or just kind of groove or something. But it makes you better. You have kind of a it makes you just want to go do it to play the stuff that you go. It's easy. Just count it like this. It's easy. Just play it. And then you go, oh, I can do this and it makes you want to practice. Absolutely, it does. And yeah, you recognize that too. And that's important because, you know, there's so many people that start out, you know, with good intentions and figure they're going to do this. And then if you get a little difficult, they say, well, I'll work on this particular section tomorrow. No, do it now. You know, just get it done. I remember going just one quick story about Mr. Stone. You know, he's going to his studio. I used to go on Wednesday morning. And it was one thing that I didn't realize when I signed up for lessons with him is that he didn't come to campus. We had to take the subway down to his studio on Hancock Street every week. So I was going to him. He wasn't coming to me, you know? And I thought, man, this is a drag. I gave it up an hour earlier to get the subway, you know? Yeah, because it was worth every minute. And so so Stone was he was just, you know, teaching it in his normal fashion. And I was up in the studio all of a sudden. Obviously, I was on his Ricky Tinky drum set that had to still had the palm tree picture on the front of the thing. You've seen those in the 1920s. I did. And so I'm practicing this thing. And he comes to the studio and he walks out and almost immediately walks in and he said, what's that you're playing there? I said, well, just a little solo thing I was working on. He said, didn't I hear you play this last week? I said, yeah, I've been working on it. He said, no, once you learn it, forget it, stop it. I don't want to hear that anymore. You know how to play that. I heard you played it last week. I heard you play it this week. Stop it. Don't play anything you already know. You're wasting time. Well, I think you don't know. But I don't know. And if you just work on that, then once you get that time, forget that and go with something else. Always try to learn something more difficult, but don't play it twice. He said that part of me. I mean, well, a couple of coffee before he came back. Oh, man, I obviously stopped practicing that group, you know. Yeah. Once you learn it, forget it. There's the that's right. Well, why are you wasting your time doing something you already know how to do? Geez, that pushes you. I mean, that makes you go forward because we all I get. We all get so comfortable doing things that are we're good at. And everyone's guilty of that. But just push forward. Yeah, that's right. You know, that that's what that's that was his slogan, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Barry, again, so everyone knows Barry James drummer at gmail.com. If you want to talk about lessons, getting books and then from there, you can figure out address and all that stuff on how to pay. But it's you're not going to get a better deal. Barry, truly, I am so happy we became friends and are continuing to be friends and have phone conversations and and, you know, hello to your wife, Elaine, and your, you know, your family and everything. I think it's it's just awesome that to be able to connect with you. And you're so fortunate to have a family you have that wonderful. Yep, that's awesome. And and I don't I don't take it for granted. And again, love every minute hanging out with you, Barry. And I hope you get some new students from this. I hope you sell some books. And just in general, I'm always happy to have you on the podcast and we'll do it again. I appreciate it very much. Yeah, we'll do it again later when Jason finishes up that other book. And you guys can get through you to give you all the scoop on it. It'd be an interesting book. Yeah. And I got one more in the back of my head. I don't know if I have time for it, but there's one more thing that has to do with Stone's polyrhythm and how we develop this polyrhythm. And it'd be more like a booklet than a book, but I can show people how he went, what he used for a template, if you will, to draw up all his, you know, his polyrhythm, five against nine and 11 against three. And, you know, all that kind of thing that difficulty. And then, like I said, I can teach it in a short period of time. But, you know, I think I'd like to spend more time just introducing people to the stone book as far as the stick control exercise. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you don't get it out of your head and onto paper or on video, then it goes away. So I think it's important that you do this and that we talk about it and all this stuff. So we will, you know, we'll get touched as soon as possible. And, you know, and maybe do a video when we got the second book done and ready to go. We might all get together and do a video. Absolutely. All right, Barry, thank you for being here. Thank you, Bob. Thank you. God bless and take care of that wonderful family of yours. Awesome. Thanks, Barry.