 I think the first part of what it just says is really, really important. And that's taken to supervision. Yeah. It becomes very hard or challenging if you don't take this to supervision because you're in your own script. Yeah. Brought up in a script or a negative transference, which is very hard to get out of if you haven't got someone to help you stay an adult. Yeah, definitely. Excellent. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 71 of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with myself Jackie Jones and the ever present Mr. Bob Cook. The topic we're going to be covering tonight is working with a client you don't like. A really interesting topic this one. Yeah. But just before I go into that, I'll fair. Well, maybe we're on air. I don't know. You said this is number 71. It is number 71. And I'm so pleased because I am 71. I'm 72 in next month, but I am 71 at the moment. So I've done an episode for every year of my life. You have. What an achievement. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's just great to hear. So this is a, this is an interesting one working with clients that you don't like because in supervision, it comes up a lot. Of course, in my career as well, it came up quite a bit, but people, you know, therapists are often bringing that discipline to me. So I thought it would be a good podcast to talk about. And of course, what you're really talking about here is negative counter-transference. Yes. That's what in the technical words of people listening to it, negative counter-transference. And interestingly, you know, Jackie, there isn't much written on it. That is interesting because it is human nature. It's part of being a human being. Yeah. In normal life, people, you know, hit your triggers. Yeah. In the therapeutic process, I think it's very useful to analyze the negative counter-transference before you just say, no, I don't feel I like you or some, you wouldn't say that anyway. But what I'm saying, I think it's useful to take the supervision and analyze negative counter-transference. Sorry, because then you can go forward from there or not. I was very surprised when I looked at negative transference. There isn't much written about it. And I remember telling, or having a conversation with Richard Erskine, I said, why don't you put a chapter on negative, you know, negative transference and working with it in the next book. And he promptly left it out. But there wasn't that much written. So I can say a bit about it in this podcast. Why do you think there isn't much written about it, Bob? To be truthful, I don't know. There is some. Don't get me wrong. There are things, you know, subject is covered, but not as much or as extensively as other subjects, and particularly, of course, positive counter-transference, which I think is covered much more. So I think it's a shame because negative transference is something all therapists are going to feel sometimes. Experience it sometimes, yeah. Is it because we're supposed to be professional at all times? I didn't even thought about it that way. But of course, I suspect that might have a grain of truth in it. Yeah, I just wondered because it is something that most of us will experience at some point or another. It'd be highly unusual if you didn't. Yeah. Highly unusual. And of course, we'll need to talk about negative transference or you might want to say negative counter-transference. What you're talking about is somebody who hits your triggers from your own history. Yeah. And means that, therefore, you have an emotional reaction in the present, even though it comes from your own history. Yeah. I mean, I think the best thing to do in that situation is to take it to supervision. Definitely, yeah. Have you worked with many clients where you've had negative transference with? There's been a few on a few occasions. I'd say that I connect more with some than others rather than I don't like certain clients, if that makes sense. There's certain clients that I resonate more with and I connect with better than others. And have you reflected on what that's about? Yeah, possibly. Yeah. I mean, if you want to look at it analytically, that will be to do, or you might argue, that will be to do with your experience of the past. So, as an example, not saying particularly with you here, but if somebody came in to my, and this has happened, so I'm smiling at myself because I was thinking about it and looked just like one of my abusers from the past, then, you know, what happened was I had a reaction against that person and projected onto that person. How bundler stuff, which actually has nothing to do with them. Yeah. With me, it's been more about the feeling that I get with certain people rather than appearance or, yeah, I don't know, maybe even more so than the words that they use. If I just get a certain feeling being around that person that reminds me of something in my past when I felt that way before. So that feeling is associated, though, with a time, place, person. Definitely, yeah. The origin. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes maybe the feeling that I'm not good enough or something like that, then I can get triggered. So are you saying that you can trigger onto a person, as given example, where they might have a specific parental attitude, which is pretty, say, judgmental. Yeah. Then that might trigger off some thoughts, feelings, images from the past. Yeah. Or close to, you know, opening up a different way of looking at things if they're quite close minded or quite fixed. Then I find that difficult, yeah. And that comes from your past again. Yeah, yeah. But I get a feeling of inadequacy that I used to feel when I was younger type of thing. So yeah, definitely connected. And then if we're looking from a transactionalist point of view, especially when people bring these sorts of things to supervision, is we're moving. This is the therapist. Yeah. This happens. The dangers that will move from adults into our own child state. Yeah. And we react in a negative way. As maybe we did all those years ago to the person that was so negative to us. Yeah. And it's instantaneous as well. That's the thing. It doesn't build up slowly. It's an instant thing when it happens. That's what shocked me. Yeah. So can you see? Well, I'm asking you, but let's ask you this question. Can you see any positivity of working with the negative transference as a therapist? Yeah. What would you see as the positivity? Once you've taken it to supervision of working with the negative transference. Because it helped me work through things, taking it to supervision. And it helped me. Yeah. In knowing myself better and what my triggers were and things like that. And it's challenging. And I think that's okay in the therapy room. It's okay for me to be challenged in the therapy room. I think the first part of what I just said is really, really important. And that's taken to supervision. Yeah. It becomes very hard or challenging. If you don't take this to supervision because you're in your own script. Yeah. Brought up in a script or a negative transference, which is very hard to get out of. If you haven't got someone to help you stay an adult. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. If you're seeing these clients on a weekly basis, it's really difficult without supervision. It's almost impossible because you're brought up in your own script. Yeah. So yeah, so that supervision is the first port of call. Yeah. Would you ever discuss it with a client? Would I or have I? Have I? I don't think I have. No, I haven't. Would I? I think I would with. I think I'd have to take it to supervision and make sure that whatever I say or share has a clinical benefit for the client. Yeah. Rather than just spontaneously sharing something. Yeah. And that's because of things like shame and. And, and, and projective identification. The other thing I think is important is the developmental level of the. Client. So if you've been working with them for years, for example, I think that's a different, different relationship to someone who's just come through the door. Definitely. Yeah. I was thinking, I'm not sure whether I would discuss it with the client or not supervision, definitely. Whether I would take it in the therapy room. I'm not sure. I never have. No. And I can only think that. If I did, it would be a. After, you know, a useful discussion with the supervisor. And I'd have to be certain in my own mind. That it had clinical advantage. For the. Client rather than me. Yeah. Rather than just being simply useful for me in some way. Yeah. Would you ever refer wrong? Oh, now I want to go on something else. Haven't taken it to supervision. Talking about it. And if I would come to the conclusion with the supervisor. That the negative transfers was too strong. And I wasn't. Able to stay an adult or at least be. Satisfied. I could stay an adult. Then I would refer. Yeah. I referred on this another question and I just say something like. You know, I think it's important that you work with someone else because. There's things in my own history. Which can get triggered here, which has nothing to do with you. And actually the problem with that is I can't give you the best services. Yeah. Against. There's no guilt or shame or blame or anything. I've done that. Yeah. Interestingly enough, probably only two or three times in my. Career spans over three decades. But I have. Yeah. I've always faced it that way. Yeah. Because we are only human. We can do all the work, but if we're being triggered, then it is again, you know, looking at it clinically, it's only fair if we refer that client on so that they are getting. Yeah. I remember one person and it taught me a lot. Because it realized I hadn't done enough work. There's just somebody with my father. With. With respect to my father. Because if it had done the work and the therapy, then I would have been able to probably work with this person. Yeah. But. It would make me think and reflect and realize that I hadn't done enough work on certain areas to do with my father. Because I found myself moving into Charlie estate. And it didn't help. Yeah. The client at all. Didn't help me. We didn't help a client. No, that's it. Yeah. It's a really interesting topic. Yeah. And I think you. I think you need to. If you are going to refer on, you need to say it in a way. That's really important, which isn't sharing and et cetera, et cetera. And do it in a way which is very honest. And that is. It's not good for you. Yeah. You know, I'm not able to be the therapist. I should be for you. And I'm going to. Take a look at the therapy. But in the meantime. I need to refer to somebody who hasn't got the same. Perhaps history that I've got. Yeah. I think that's maybe why I always have a clause in my contract that we agree to, you know, see each other for four weeks and then reassess in four weeks. Because that, that, you know, they're, they're prepared for a check-in after four weeks, whether we're going to continue working or not. And it's, it's both sides. Because as much as we can have negative transfer. Negative transfer. And so I suppose they can as well. Yeah. And yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. By the way. And. On a, on another level, but similar. And it's still negative transfers. I'm, I'm, I'm reminded to talk about, of course, the times when I have worked with people. When, of course. I've had this type of negative transfers and identification, but I've taken the therapy, realized what it is, worked on it in my own therapy. Yeah. When I'm able to stay an adult to be able to do the work that I need to do. And it's been very useful. Not just about my own therapy, but it's been useful in terms of the relationship with the client. Yeah. But that's happened quite a lot. And it, and usually, you know, if I can't see the child. In the client or the younger self in the client. I'm more able to stay grounded. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't mean necessary that if I can't see the child and. Or, or the vulnerability in the client in front of me for lots of different reasons that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which makes sense. Yeah. It's an interesting one because I can't myself as a relational integrist psychotherapist. So how much I would share this, it would be dictated by. If it's useful for the client. Yeah. Because sometimes. In a session. I, I'm consciously aware of having a reaction. To what they're saying, not necessarily transference, but it's obviously touched something with me that I've had a reaction to it. Like, you know, I've, I've. Shed tears in therapy sessions with some people, whether that's empathy or. I'm not sure what it is, but sometimes clients do. Impact on me more than others. Well, it's an interesting podcast about. I don't think it says should or not. But in terms of clinical practice. Share a weeping with your client. For whatever reasons. Is that beneficial? I don't think so. Yeah. I remember when I first. Some time ago. Therapist I really admired and. Looked up to him being a therapy for a long time. I remember it's a group, big group. And he. You know, shared us some of his tears and. I quite shocked me because. I remember when I first. Some time ago. I remember seeing some of his tears and how it quite shocked me. Because I hadn't seen. That level of. Sort of. The heart in you, if you like, from that perspective. Yeah. And it shocked me and. It taught me a lot. In terms of. You know. How it kept myself away from him. Perhaps. Because I hadn't seen the heart in him. And I think it's not to it. I think it's really important to discuss and supervision. But it also gave me the permission as a. I'll say fledgling therapist would be around quite a bit. To be able to share feelings, which I'd stop myself, I think. Yeah. Yeah. All the time. Yeah, yeah, but there is a danger of. You know, one of the reasons I like transactional analysis is because we can bring ourselves into the therapy room if it's beneficial for them. But I suppose the danger is that sometimes do we take up too much space in the therapy room? Yeah, that's the biggest reason that. You know, some is to do with you and not then. Yeah. The other several reasons or discussions. That's why I said to be a good podcast. Is you could unknowingly. Elicit elicit. The rescue inside of the client and they move into rescuing you. Yeah. During the work we need to do. Yeah. So to be a good podcast to have and. I think that it, whatever happens. Is that it is a human emotion and a human discourse. And I still think it needs discussing to see. You know, what triggers have been. You know. Touched. Etc. Etc. Yeah, because there has been, I don't want to say quite a few cases, but quite a few times where I've been going through something in my own personal life that the client brings that they're actually going through. Which obviously. Is one of those situations that can be quite difficult. You know, when, when my dad passed away, I had like two clients that had a family member that passed away at a similar time. So, you know, sometimes the universe just throws a curveball at us. I've been seeing these clients for quite a while when my life and their life kind of went through the same thing. And it's at those times where. You need to be. You know, you're not only listening to originally think. And I don't think you do terrible certainty, but I think you can discuss it anyway. Yeah. Whether. The therapy that you're doing is in service of the client and not yourself. Yeah. You can go after your own therapy. To do the work that you need to do. I don't think it needs to be done necessarily with clients. No. I think that lots. There's something very weird in the sense of shared humanity. Yeah. I think it was more that's what I did do. You know, but I think it was more how coincidental life can be that we're going through it at the same time. And I didn't actually take a break from work. When my dad passed away. All right. I did a lot more personal therapy. But it was like I knew that at least two of my clients were going through a similar thing. And would that have been appropriate for me to stop seeing them? When I knew what they were going through time. So I do remember it being a bit of a quandary. Yeah. It's an interesting one. Those sorts of dilemmas. Yeah. And I think as a therapist, there's always a dilemma of one sort or another going on. Oh, nearly always. I mean, you. You foster children didn't you? I did. Yeah. You know, there's lots of issues there that's around attachment and ruptures in attachment that might get activated in the therapy room. Yeah. Yeah. So there's lots in our histories which can get activated. You're right. If the person, same person or, you know, person in the Google individually has the same sort of issue. Like you've just explained there. It is a really important one to. Take to supervision so that you don't merge with your client. Yeah. Doing therapy for yourself rather than actually doing what you should be doing. Yeah. So it's very, very challenging when you have those circumstances of possible identification. Yeah. I mean, it's understandable, you know, if we look at your career length of, you know, 35 plus years, you know, personally as a man, you must have gone through an awful lot in that 35 years. Right. You know that you've been a therapist throughout that. So, you know, it's understandable that we are going to go through certain things at certain times. Oh, yes. And we also must remember that people act, respond, you know, in their own unique ways. Yeah. So even though I may act or react in certain ways to certain levels of trauma or whatever we're talking about here, someone else might not. Yeah. That's a really good point that is, you know, if we're looking at grief again, we all grieve differently. There isn't a rule book for how we should cope with. No, because what you said there is interesting. You said that you didn't take any time off work. You also said you had some therapy, I understood that. Yeah. And then another person might deal with their own grief in a completely different way, whether they need to go away and have some time off from their profession. And it's a different process. Yeah. I'm always being taught and believe this, and it's very hard to do. And I think I did it pretty well, but you cannot, you can't do it perfectly. And that is have, move away from any assumptions. Yes. Yeah. That's a hard ask. Yeah. Try to do it. Yeah, definitely. Because we, it is again, it's, it's part of the human nature that we do make assumptions that, you know, they'll feel the same way that I felt when I went through it. Or, you know, they should be feeling this way or shouldn't be feeling that way. Yeah. That comes up daily. That came up daily for me in my life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That comes up daily. That came up daily for me in my clinical career. Exactly what you're talking about there. The, if I carried myself away with my assumptions, therapy would be far more challenging. Yeah. And if I don't know if that would happen particularly well because my assumptions are often incorrect. Yeah. Well, they're based on your past and your history. Yeah. Mutual relational needs and the world might not be. Yeah. Yeah. The more you talk about topics like this, the more you realise how much of a mind field it is in the therapy room. It's very, very difficult. I mean, you know, I had a lot of sadness in my own history and I was thinking somebody I did pass on by the way. It's not that I didn't like them by the way, particularly, but they had very identical situation to me, very young. And as we talked about it, I felt myself moving away from here now reality. I took it to supervision and it came clear that there was still a lot of therapy for me to do. And I did refer on. Yeah. Because actually if I hadn't done, I would just move to child and also being caught up with my own assumptions. Yeah. So assumptions are one of the biggest curses, I think for a therapist. Curse might be the wrong word, but biggest challenge anyway. Yeah. If you're unaware of what it is that's going on. I think this is why I love therapy so much, because you are always shining a light on yourself. Yeah, absolutely. And it's a light that has been going on for many, many, many, many years in many different ways through therapy and my own reflection. And without that, I could easily have merged many times with the clients of Compton Madore. Yeah. And that is a recipe for disaster in terms of therapeutic change. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the hardest things in the early days for me as a therapist was, you know, being honest with myself and being transparent with myself is, you know, who am I? And sometimes that's painful. We do unearth parts of ourselves that we don't necessarily like, you know, we learn about making assumptions and, you know, I would thought some feelings around certain things or certain people. And it's not always pleasant when that comes into your awareness. No. And sometimes our dark sides, even though we've attempted to therapy and perhaps to minimize the dark sides of our own spirit, they may collide or have the possibility of colliding with the darker sides of clients to come through the door where you've got some identification with. Yeah. Yeah. Because some clients come with a specific problem that you, you know, you might think that's a bit close to home. So I'll refer them on before you even see them. But then other clients, you know, you can be seeing them for quite a few years when something will come up. Well, that's a good thing to mention, by the way. That's what you've just said there. Now, hopefully the relationship, which has been, you know, longer to developmental level, might be able to hold together long enough for you perhaps to do the therapy or supervision that you need to do so you can stay an adult. Yeah. Work through the issue with the client. If you can't, that's a really big, big area to discuss with the client or at least talk about in a way. But I think you'd have to go through supervision and therapy to work that through because you're right, suddenly out of the blue sometimes things occur, which even though you work with a client for say two or three years and then something comes up you don't expect. Yeah. Supervision and your own therapy has to be your first port of call. Yeah. When you share it with your client. Yeah. Even if you know them very, very well. Yeah. But, you know, I think of an incident of somebody I worked with for eight years and she was talking about something very close to home. I thought I'd done a lot of therapy on this. I was thinking about things. She said, what are you thinking about? You seem to have changed in your manner. Wow. And I realized suddenly that I was somewhere else. And I said to her, yes, what are you talking about? It was very evocative. And I had a sense myself that I perhaps moved away. And I'll take this supervision and talk about this. The next session, then she said, was it about X and we briefly identified the process. It was towards the end of the session. So I was able to take a supervision and therapy. And then I brought it back and said, well, I'm doing this work here and it's been very useful. Thank you. And I'm able to stay here with you now so we can explore this area. Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, if I was on the receiving end of you saying that I would probably trust you all the more for doing that, you know, because we're not infallible. We're not, you know, robots that don't have emotions and a life outside in the therapy room. Yeah, you're right. And usually when a supervisor comes and says, I've got, you know, this cloud I don't like has arrived at doorstep. I don't know if I can work with them. And, you know, it's usually to do with their own vulnerability. They push against the client because they're afraid in some ways of being vulnerable with this client. Yeah. So usually supervision I would encourage or share the person to explore briefly before they defer on what area, what areas you might be feeling vulnerable with this client. Because it's about vulnerability in the end. Yeah. So I encourage to be vulnerable in a human relationship. Yeah. Therapist clients, both. Yeah, it does. And the two always come together in my book, you know, courage and vulnerability, because it's easy to just shut down and not be vulnerable. Well, I think it's, it's interesting, we're easy. I think it's a coping mechanism, which has been cultivated. And that sense is easy because it's predictable. Yeah. It's predictable. It's a way that we've learned to cope to shut down or whatever it is that we, the way we cope. So in that way, it's easy. But I suspect at the beginning, when we started to adopt that way of defending so we could survive in a more robust way, it was probably something we had to do. Yeah. But becomes sort of second nature because we've learned to cope that way. Yeah. Interesting one now, but yes, I think you're right that we've learned to cope in a certain way. But I think in careers, anybody who listens to podcasts, you're going to find many clients to come to you that solicit your negative transfers, I'm sure. And take it to supervision and get your own personal therapy, if it does. It's the only way forward. Yeah. And if we find ourselves not being able to stay an adult, we do then need to defer in a sensitive way and explain why in a transparent way so the person feels accounted by you. Yeah. And that you're doing it for the best reasons. That's, you have to. Yeah. Absolutely, Jeff, that you're doing it for the for the best reason for the client. Yeah. I've really enjoyed that one, Bob. Thank you. It's interesting subject area. Yeah. So what we're going to be discussing in the next episode is working with multiple personality disorder. Now that's a specialist, a specialist subject of mine. At the end of my training in transaction analysis, and I went on to study an integrative psychotherapy, I started to specialize in the whole subject of multiple personalities. It was at the beginning of the 1990s. And it's not so common now because the terminology is called, you know, it's dissociative identity disorder. But it's a podcast I'm looking forward to. Me too. I've never worked with them and I wouldn't know where to start. So it's a learning curve for me. So until next time, Bob, thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. You've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.