 Podcasts round table round 114 has radio finally seen the podcasting light and Based on that topic I brought in Rob Greenley who's not new to the round table, but a radio guy and Because you guys have come from podcast movement at least Rob and Dave have recently These are related Stories and that's really kind of why I let off with that and why I picked that topic Cuz coming out of podcast movement It seems like at least the lead story was that there were more radio people at podcasting And I'm curious why we care if it's important all that stuff So Rob on the new media shows usually the radio the resident radio guy So we're gonna get some opinions about that and then we're going to talk about some other stuff And I think Daniel will join us halfway, but let's meet the round table of a practically introduced show or a Dave Jackson welcome back Yeah, Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting Dotcom all right and Rob welcome back Well, thank you. It's great to be back on the round table. It's always a fun time getting together with you guys That's right. What where's where's your show Rob? Which one would you like us to to check out? Oh As far as my my own shows I would say the new media show new media show.com. It's what I do with Todd Cochran and The speaker live show something I do every Wednesday live both these shows are our lives So, you know, this is like right in my genre here And right doing it live that's doing live Rob's been doing it live and longer longer than than any of us I think so and Tyler also welcome back no new round table is today, but very specifically hand-picked round table Well, I'm glad I was picked. Thanks so much for bringing me on Yeah, I think we were just DMing late last night about something else and I said do you want to join so no There is always more to talk about all right. Well, I did lead off with that radio tease I want to save one of those stories Until Daniel gets here. So I will start off with one actually reminds me We did cross the 500 sub mark on YouTube. I did a shout out for that last time I was like, please follow and and the awesome round table who's in the chat right now, Jonathan I see over there Pushed us up over. I think it's like 510. So thank you very much for doing that Not that it really matters 500 is a cool number, but that is kind of my question Tyler We have a prolific YouTuber here and I think that's probably what we were I think we were Pontificating on IGTV and it's seemingly in Demise or what maybe it's demise, but that's not the question I'm curious Tyler since you are a youtuber from your perspective and I promise there is a podcasting crossover to this How important are YouTube subs and I mean the numbers not the people of course everyone who says is important But you know what I mean the number How many do you have well? So I just crossed a hundred thousand the other day, which congrats That's big really exciting. So I just want my button man. So you get your buttons kids on the way I got to put a plaque up that's right. Then you're real youtuber. Oh, yeah, that's that's how I know I made it Yeah, so That was you know, my big might that was like the big first goal now the next school is Harder to attain the next badges that a million But so the biggest thing that I've really found with it is that compared to all the other media I produced So, you know, I make a podcast and I like Instagram pretty actively I do a lot of things but YouTube has been able to push people or bring people towards all the other platforms More than anything else. So when I just publish Things on YouTube that resonate with not just my audience But the the general YouTube audience and a lot of people see it That has been able to bring people towards all the other content I create in a way that I haven't been able to do anywhere else. So, you know on my podcast. I Can't like get people to follow me on Instagram for my podcast much or Instagram to my YouTube doesn't happen much but YouTube people follow through like there's something about it where I think they get more and more invested in the personality and Which podcasting has that's inherent to podcasting, but do you think you're talking you're talking visual Format to another visual format. Do you think that plays any role then going from audio to visual? so there's sort of two steps one is that people find your stuff because it's the From what I've heard it's the second biggest search engine in the world So, you know after Google people are searching YouTube like crazy for Everything for every problem they want to solve for every question they have about gear and just no matter What it is they're interested in like people search YouTube like crazy And if you're the person they're finding they pretty quickly will start watching other content that you've done and Subscribe hopefully and then get more invested in anything you're doing and What's missing in other platforms is that extreme discoverability? So on Instagram you have to show up in a hashtag, but hashtags Refresh every few moments so you don't stay at the top of search results for more than Five minutes really you get pushed down almost immediately or in podcasting most of it is generally word of mouth or referrals or You know searches are new and challenging. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a very it's just it's a really different structure of how people find you right like they don't There isn't this like constant searching for new stuff So anyway, I've just found that that discoverability mixed with deep engagement has been really powerful Do you think how much that your? Niche niche niche I say both ways and I mixed them there. How much does your niche come into play? Do you think that that plays a factor in people because what I thought was interesting is you had I don't know How many subs you had when you started your you had a podcast about Photography and then you did a sort of a general interest podcast It's the stallman podcast right and you focus on things there, but that's more You and you was expanded because you wanted to talk about more stuff I think than just photography exactly. Yeah, but that is typically hard to get on a podcast That's hard to do and get an audience and maybe one of the reasons is to come up to the top, right? It's when you're talking general interest. So How many subs react when you started pushing people towards that podcast and how how many? Why do you think they went to that podcast because it was a successful move, right? I mean you started that and you got a lot of I mean how many subs do you know how many subs you have in your podcast? So yeah, I from my photography show. I was at about three thousand after a couple of years Which is great. I was really excited about that growth and when I saw how quickly my YouTube started growing I realized that there was a much there was a bigger opportunity if I was aiming at a wider audience because my my photography show Was especially for professionals Then once I started doing more general stuff on my YouTube, which is like technology and there's still photography like It's it's got a slant, but it's not so specific I realized that I couldn't have all those people come over to a professional photography podcast So I had to do something that was meant for a broader audience And it wouldn't have worked without YouTube because like my personality is like I'm not a name Nobody knows who I am but as my YouTube grew that allowed me to push people over so I went from having I had 3,000 on the photography podcast and I started the new show and now I'm at 6,000 after Six six months I think six thousand on the general interest. Yeah, I'm not the tech sort of or yeah I mean the the one that's just driven by whatever I want to talk about awesome. So if you were on to yes Thank you very much. Everyone should check it out if you just want to Tyler. Are you? Posting your your full audio Over to YouTube So I've only I've only done that once I've only done one Podcast like full crossover podcast, but it was video too, right? It wasn't just audio on YouTube Yeah, so I recorded the whole interview and edited a multi cam thing cutting between me and the other person and That was it was an experiment really. I just wanted to see what people would watch and that got Okay, it got poor views for a YouTube video, but good for podcast downloads. So I got you know 4,000 But I don't think YouTube's the right place for full-length podcasts But I've seen be extremely successful and I I should be doing for the time I think we're doing it wrong here. No, this has a different this is different because we're recording live But well, but what would have seemed work really really well is is what like H3 podcast is doing or Another one is the daily grind. There's bunch people that are doing basically excerpts or also what Joe Rogan does where it's like They take a bunch of the best like 10 minutes of just like one conversation out of the hour They post the video of that And they don't post the whole shows and then those shorter clips get much bigger views Because that's what people are on YouTube for is you know 10-minute conversations It's much more challenging to get people to click through when they see a one-hour thing like it's just intimidating Yeah, I mean we're again going back to the IGTV thing I don't think long format works there, but it is interesting conversation. I am also curious How what do you see I definitely have an opinion on this but it's obviously anecdotal from my own experience How does your sub count on YouTube differ from what you see in your podcast sub? So is there a difference in the type of subscriber and you can interpret that any way you want? No, there definitely is I mean YouTube subscribers translate to views less than like anywhere else really So even like the engagement is still very high But when people subscribe, they don't see your stuff YouTube just doesn't push it forward to them at all They don't feel like that's important. So You know, it's a measure of like kind of personal success you can feel good about it And it probably means you're doing some right things But you're not gonna get a hundred thousand people showing up every time whereas with podcast subs It's you know closer to like 80 90% that like if people are downloading they're often listening Yeah, and they're a lot more engaged so One thing that I've seen work on on YouTube for podcasters I've seen a few hosts do this is that they'll create like a short version of the topic that they covered in their podcast and create a Create a really compelling video of it and then they'll post the full-length podcast episode Which basically goes into greater depth and I what I see people doing is they'll watch the video And if they want to learn more or listen to more on that topic, then they'll go listen to the full-length podcast Yeah, no, that's great. That's just audio only. Yeah, so much work, right? I mean, it's already hard enough to do a podcast. There's this consideration of how much more work can I do and is it worth it? I think that's the key is is it worth it? I think you have to decide that for yourself like you can't just judge by the numbers, right? Yeah, I think it depends if you primarily want to be a video Creator and then just the audios on the side somewhat I think if you're coming at it from a just an audio pure audio standpoint, that's probably a big leap to trying Do a big, you know cool production around video too that may be a big big leap So these crossovers can be a little tough at times. I think in classic round table fashion. I'm gonna just Left field here, but it's all it's related our video podcast dead Mostly Do you my my first podcast which would be like 2005 or 2006 was it was a video podcast where I Would like traditional I just like talk and it was a video of me and it would be on itunes And I can't imagine bothering with that now doesn't make any sense, you know one trick I did if you do want to Sort of turn your YouTube channel into a video podcast one trick that I've figured out and haven't really done anything with it yet After you upload your video, which could be you know a gigabyte or something big YouTube has amazing compression algorithms and you can download the resulting mp4 and it is so much smaller And so video podcast one of the problems is hosting It's they're just giant files and did no one's really made this there are some options It's difficult and it can be expensive But if you're trying to do this and you're putting it on YouTube check out the size of that mp4 because what I find is The compressions is great And you could probably even drop that to 640 by 360 most people watching on mobile. Just if you want to be On another distribution platform something to consider, but it can be difficult video podcasting is difficult What's what I really think people if you're if you're gonna do a video podcast Upload your HD version of YouTube put that on your website So when the visitor shows up they got that and then make some sort of smaller version for the mobile And then throw that on your media host so it doesn't cost you an arm and a leg Dave you work at Lipson. Do you how many video podcasters do you interact with is that a thing? Do people ever approach you with with issues about video podcast? They are a little bit like unicorns Don't see them a whole lot. It's how I started to Yeah, I will have somebody who's like what's the best codec and then you know, they want to know what the video thing is But it's very seldom in the lead up to the show I talked about me having a beer on the round table and I said, I'm a hardcore Dignation guy. I love you know, I miss the show and the best part was them drinks. Anyways, this is a homage It makes me realize I remember YouTube being announced watching this week in tech as a video podcast That was the first time I ever heard of YouTube is Is that twit was covering it and I was watching a video podcast probably on my iPod? Yep That's how I did it All right, and and the whole topic of YouTube is an interesting one in the connection with podcasting. I I believe right now so you love now you what I enjoy about the new media shows Rob loves the YouTube podcast interact something. I actually love to say do both and not many podcasters do and what I there's an Interesting trend right now where all the biggest youtubers all of them are starting podcast Okay, and so now they are coming our way where I felt like a lot of podcasters would try YouTube most would not stick with it Now you're seeing very successful youtubers and and you're kind of up on that on that space too Tyler, right? You follow you mentioned h3 and a couple other Yeah, I was actually mentioning this the other day too that I think there has traditionally been this weird Disconnect between the podcast and YouTube definitely didn't really interact YouTubers didn't get podcasts and vice versa like I still hear in the tech space anyway The biggest tech podcasters are often kind of making fun of youtubers or not super aware of what they're doing they just don't take it very seriously and don't follow it and These worlds fit very well together. I think it makes a lot of sense for the biggest youtubers to get into this space I I mean, I'm glad to see Casey and I said to at h3 doing it like it's it's a good thing for them to enter it because I don't know. It's a great fit. It's good for us. It's good for us because a man They are bringing huge audiences that were traditionally only consuming on YouTube are now Starting to listen to podcast and now they know how to download one now. They know how to listen to a podcast Which is a very interesting good Rob. Oh, I was just gonna mention and and also from a platform perspective I think we're starting to see some Inkelings of some movements towards free podcast hosting and platforms that may be Positioning themselves to be kind of like YouTube as you look to the future and that's a little bit of a concern. Yeah We're gonna hit that It's related it's related also related I think this conversation is great because we're talking about this disconnect between YouTubers and podcasters we see that with radio too I mean, there are plenty of radio people that have been successful and I'm gonna talk about NPR here in a second But there's always been a disconnect whereas you'll find the podcasters making fun of radio and radio just sort of ignoring podcast I would say on the whole so So there's one I have a story here why NPR is so successful at podcasting It has a question mark. So I think the is should be before the NPR, but anyways And this was just an article and it's on a radio Site, what is this site? This is a radio in K seems to be doing a lot of podcasting related radio stories I don't know what that is. The Rob probably does but anyways a couple of things I pulled out is I think it was an interview with someone who was at podcast movement and They said we've been podcasting we've been in the podcasting business. This is someone from NPR for 13 years So NPR has been there since the beginning right and that definitely helps and he said it's about storytelling Of course, we hear all the time and others have struggled because they don't have that heritage well I think there's been plenty of successful podcasters who can do storytelling, but NPR brings Professionals alright, they they have massive teams and they've been doing storytelling since they existed. So that's their thing but interesting also Here was interesting was the revenue from podcasting has become very important to NPR as they say it's a Great source of revenue. He said 55% of the sponsors cross from one of Cross from one NPR platform to another some come to NPR specifically for the podcast and some cases NPR has them locked up for 24 months so big commitment from a sponsor and then also Hey, the funny part is at the end when they talk about when a legitimate measurement system comes into play, right? The beef always is But podcasts still can't be measured very well, right? That's the that's the Yeah, exactly, that's that's that's what I've heard the Todd likes to say that all the time and But he they say when the when that happens and of course, they're working on the same called rad Which Rob can tell us about he says the revenue floodgates will open like that's the secret right to getting massive money in podcasting There's always the thing that's going to put us over the edge and we know we grow small anyways He says from what he understands around the corner huge hockey stick Best thing Rob first of all what what is rad? What is NPR talking about? It's basically to really sum it down simply. It's it's being able to track Playback of downloadable podcasts in the actual player itself instead of tracking at the server side But this happens doesn't this already happen? I mean Apple certainly does could do this, right? Yeah I mean some of the the The app platforms are probably tracking playback behavior, but are you are you tracking it's greater? Oh? Sure off of off of our own players and off of our own apps is that is that? Exposable to producers can they see that information? Yeah, okay, but I think it's cool I think the rad thing is that they they want to Sort of grab all that info from everywhere and put it off all of the players right which is not gonna happen Well, it's it's gonna take time right not everybody's gonna build the hooks in here And basically how rad works is that it it basically? You put metadata in the ID three tags that basically when that when the plate when the media file is played it Activates a URL that's embedded in the media file Inside the player and the player reports home basically it like sends a message back to the server saying I Got played and this is the file so so that would give us access to playback All mp3 files Whether or not they're downloaded or just played You know off of a stream as long as we're talking app plays though because it's got to be in that person's echo You know ecosystem, right? It's got to be any any player any player that plays audio could be could be connected to this Some of the web players though are are pretty simple, you know like some of the ones that are in WordPress Yeah I don't know if those are gonna have the advanced hooks that you need to have in the player itself to be able to Support this but the one question is is Apple really going to give up that data Well, there's negotiations going on at the high levels of Apple right now So we'll have to see if that works out over the next couple of years But it's going to take time for this rad initiative to get me accepted I think most of the bigger players in the podcast space are Are liking the idea of being able to get client side metrics because it's going to be more real data It's going to be more complete You know, so did I miss something or does it include like ip data? Do they do they have any? Personalizable information about the listener as well as just whether it was played back No, I I don't believe so. I think that there's going to be maybe it I mean a refer like where it was played and what what application But I don't believe that there's going to be any any data that would be associated to an individual Um because we're talking about web players. I mean, I suppose it could be mapped That playback could be mapped to on an individual, you know, like stitcher or whatever stitcher built that in there They probably already know who that user is based on a login, right? Um, but but for most web plays they're basically anonymous web plays unless there's some sort of a login connection With the playback experience This is going to run into a great story that we have coming about panoply because apparently they are they are They do know who is you anyways, we'll get to that Don't go there yet. Don't go there yet. Yeah, that's coming I had a question about rad So the only thing rad is going to do is let me know if somebody's actually listening to my show not just downloading it Correct. Yeah, I mean actual playback time spent listening and then also the ability to To know if an ad was listened to right so there's going to be markers in the Content that would be you know reported back to the server apple gives us this data now, right? We on podcast connect I can see If someone's played it how far they played it if they skipped a net Actually, I don't know if that's coming has that happened yet. Can we actually see if people are skipping? Yeah Yeah, because you can see where your ads are because all of a sudden you'll get real nervous because all of a sudden Yeah, your ship goes wrong Right back up. You're like, oh, that's what do you know? That's a 30 second skip. Okay. Yeah, that explains that And then when you click to listen to what there you can hear me like I'll be back right after this and then it's like You know as soon as you say that phrase So I thought I heard something recently and maybe it came from the new media show Because it's practically one of the only shows I have done to listen to uh Apple when stuff is Downloaded, I guess maybe this is the same thing. We still the stats How much of our stats tell us what was actually played? When is it when when are if we look in lipson if I look in lipson and it says I have 1500 downloads How many of those do I know? You know 1500 downloads from apple Just I guess it splits out between apple podcasts and just there's itunes, right? How many of those do I know were actually played? Do we know does that that tracked because I thought there was a thing Dave does lipson not report the number if it wasn't played Or does it report every download no matter what? Well, the IAB guidelines are is I believe I'd have to double check But I think it's if you've listened to a minute Of the episode then then you can report it and yeah if you are IAB compliant Which lipson is which spraker is which getting there? Yeah blueberry is Rob is that is that right? Is that how it works? Yeah, I mean well It depends on what you're talking about here You know there's the concept of time spent listening Which is something that spraker tracks as well because we were kind of a streaming platform So we can track how long people are listening to things, but typically when the file gets downloaded per se You don't really know that data that that data kind of disappears in most of the playback platforms Apple is tracking it because they're able to to look at it and plot that playback timeline, right? But most of the platforms are not really doing actual playback Metrics per se on downloads So I I know that Todd with with blueberry is getting into partial downloads and trying to trying to back into the data So if well, let's say an episode is downloaded Let's say a 30% of the episode is downloaded. Do you count that as a full play or do you count it as a partial download? How far in how much data was downloaded? So you could kind of back into kind of a You know a a chunk based on chunks because well, if you know what happens why can't you report that? Why can't the stat be You know, well on facebook tells you 10 seconds or more plays 10 seconds or less plays Well, it's hard to know sometimes In the download process whether a person's listening or they're just downloading it, right? So if they're downloading it It can look exactly like somebody that just clicked play and has a progressive playback experience Is this something we need to solve figure out? Is it possible? Well, that's what rad is trying to solve. Um, honestly is being able to know when that downloaded media file is actually played That's interesting to me that you Indicate that apple may at some point budge on this so possible. It's possible. They're The talks are happening That you know, there's no hard data on radio besides calling people and hoping they don't lie and there's There's no hard data on how much of a newspaper I read You know, I'm always right Why do we have to have this it has to be concrete otherwise? We don't trust it Kind of so so that's the question right rob is is will the floodgates open? Is that what's holding advertisers back? I mean to be honest with you. I don't care because independent podcasters aren't going to see those type of ads, but I'm curious Yeah, I don't think that the floodgates are going to open real fast I think that it's going to be better and we'll see more money come into the medium But the only thing that's going to cause the floodgates to open is if all of a sudden we get 75% of the us or the world population listen to the podcast every week Then yeah, the floodgates going to open, right? It's all about audience, right? I mean how we count the audience. Dave is right. I mean there's more data around podcasts and radio has ever had So I guess what it also gets back to is there's been some players in the medium over the last five years or 10 years that have been Fudging the numbers they've been inflating numbers So a lot of these ad buyers are a little scary of digital data because it can be inflated or You know, so there's been some games that have been going on in the medium for a while And they're they're a little nervous of jumping in too much and that's part of it though Because dave what you're implying is that we know the ads work because people show up and typically this is handled through promo codes Landing pages stuff like that. So people who fudge the numbers I mean it almost there should be some You got to blame the person who bought the ad a little bit because it's it feels like there are ways to measure I don't care if someone tells me they get a million You know if they'll send a million people if you don't actually send it within, you know It should be a short contract at first and I don't know. It seems like you could you could uh You maybe get scammed for the first Part but then I have a little experience going on right now with this that I recently got a really fantastic sponsorship on my youtube From the great podcast website hosting company Um, and they're sponsoring a few videos that basically I just make videos the way I do and there's a sponsorship insert in the video Similar to a podcast read like same as the podcast format And I know that they like they can fully see all of the youtube analytics like they're used to seeing youtube numbers They know they can trust them But in the end whether or not this sponsorship is renewed is going to be based on whether or not people use my url Like I I absolutely know that if nobody follows through and goes to my promo code They're not going to sponsor me again your your influence. Can you send people right? Can you convert people from that thing who don't care if a thousand people watch? But if one person goes unless they're selling cars it it's not going to work out. Yeah Interesting. Yeah, it's all about our roi for Especially the direct response guys. Um, they're they don't really care what your audience is and they just want to get customers That's that's the bottom line and the thing is about inflated numbers is that uh, that can make it look like that your campaign is not very effective um In your roi if the numbers are dropped let's say we do go all in on the the v2 on the iab That means that the the return on investment. Um numbers go way up and maybe the cpms go up. So that's the that's the opportunity Awesome. Well, we are flying. This is a good one. Uh, because we haven't even hit Yeah, that was one story It's perfect. Let me go a little long today. Daniel's about to jump in here. So welcome, Daniel Thank you. It's great to be back on youtubers round table again. Yeah, youtubers round table. I love it I love it subscribe. Don't forget to subscribe and like this video Hit yeah, hit ring that bell man. What do they always say about the bell? Like us click it once if you Don't like us double click it Before we move on there is something I feel needs to be corrected about talking about the podcast stats and stuff I've been listening. Hasn't been here but he's been listening. I've been listening Iab measures downloads and Although there there is some stuff about listenership too the thing about like how lips in blueberry Any of the iab compliant or upcoming iab compliant hosts measure things About the one minute downloaded or one minute listened thing That's how much of the data needs to be downloaded Before it's considered a download before it will be counted as a download. It's not about Tracking the actual listenership. It's about so much Which we know a lot of people have their players are set to auto download All of those are reported because obviously Enough data all the data has been sent. Yeah, right. That's right Yeah, so that's where it comes into potentially app developers implementing the rad technology So that their specific player would support the What would we call it the Mind is blinking right now, but the playback progression basically how far did they make it through consumption analytics? That's it. How much of the episode did they consume the app developer has to implement that Cool. All right. I've got another radio related story and podcast crossover There was a same site that had this other one It said why was radio out in force at podcast movement now we have three people who were at podcast movement. That's perfect Uh, the answer to this in this article Was simple they said nearly 20 of consumers now listening to podcast With a listening base skewing younger and with at least 402 very specific million in advertising headed to the medium radio would be Foolish not to be here Dave Rob Daniel Was your experience did you did it feel like radio was that did you feel the difference were there people there? Um from radio. They also said an article that they were probably they were there to get information And likely there to poach So which is you know poach talent. What was your experience since you I wasn't there You want me to go first? Yeah, what was the presence? You probably were involved with these people right? I say these people right were so separated just like we talked about youtubers these people these aliens Yeah, these aliens to the podcasting space Well, I think it's a complex question that has a complex answer because The radio folks have had a love hate relationship with podcasting And that's more more on the commercial radio side Obviously public radio has been in this medium for a long time What was interesting about podcast movement was the blending of those two worlds The the commercial side and the public radio side were out in force together Usually what you see is a lot of people from public radio at podcast movement But you don't see a lot of people from commercial radio And I do also from a more of a political perspective Having fred and paul jacob's um in charge of the track is a warm and safe place for commercial radio These are radio each other these guys exactly they're They're friends with everybody in the industry all the CEOs of all the big Radio groups all love those guys and all come out for them at nab and All of the rain summits and all of the the radio related events around the country so Just the fact that those guys You know in seth and all those put that that track together makes it a safe place for those guys to come And but also it's also, you know, it's time right those guys if you look at um iher radio They're they're investing heavily into podcasting you look at the hubbard who invested in podcast one These guys are starting to really um come into the medium and say we need to carve out our niche also We're going to get left behind so I was going to ask why why why now Why well why not now? I mean that's that's the big event that they can come out to and make a splash and and Learn from public radio and be a part of the community and be be a part of I mean a lot of the The radio groups have been kind of hesitant to support podcasting because they couldn't see how it applies but um There's a lot of experimentation on that side going on right now They're trying new things they're trying to figure out a way to get into original content and podcasting Yeah, that was going to ask you how does it how does it apply like you're talking So public radio we know tells good stories. They create original series They've been very successful with that for the commercial radio this difference They're going to do the same thing that I think the model that you see with public radio is the how does that save a radio station? I mean like do they I assume that's part of the they're losing loser is losing losers losing users Freudian slip How does it save how does it to create a successful podcast even if they've got a hit? Oh, how does that help a local radio station? Well, that's what they're trying to figure out right What's the what's the mix there? What do they have to do locally versus what they do nationally or internationally frankly? um, so there's There's lots of experimentation going on at the station level. They um, I know the our radio folks have hired Uh people to go around to the stations and help them Craft their their radio strategies and what they're doing in their local markets to take existing content that they have right now and be able to package it monetize it because Podcasting at the station level has always been kind of like a like an add-on to their they're on air sales Right, so they haven't been selling it separately But now I think these radio groups are saying well if we're going to invest in this and we're going to create original content We need to monetize it. So they're starting to get serious about it now. Dave. Yeah Dave do we care as podcasters independence who have nothing to do with radio? Do we care? Does it matter? Does it change? Does it help podcasting? The one thing podcasting the one thing podcasting needs right now more than anything Is more listeners. Yeah, we got plenty of podcasts. We need more listeners. So if those people can bring more people over Yeah, come on down. The water's fine Yeah, I mean we know we know the we know the numbers are still heavily skewed to radio, right? I mean listening is still the ad revenue and the and the numbers of listens. They're still dominant And that's why they've been sort of easy to push us aside because You know the numbers have been relatively small and they're starting to see those creep up over time but You know So that many people who still listen to the radio when they get in the car They choose the radio if that station also has a podcast right espn has tons of podcasts They've introduced so many people who just watch cable television to podcast. I would imagine right so In that way, I think it's really good Um, of course, we you know what I did have let me pull up a tweet. I think someone tweeted me Uh, they also have a lot of money to to to spend so Jim herald jim herald tweeted me And he said I worked in radio for a decade plus Inviting them in is not like is not unlike the three little pigs inviting in the wolf They are about money money and tight editorial control. So is there a concern at the same time? Curious, what would you say to jim on that one? my response would be Dave what you're saying more audience is good, right? And I think that you know there is a role for us to play They are coming to our world that's up in some way, you know, like we own it or something But I mean there are it is different and I think they're learning robby said they're experimenting They're learning How podcasting is different than radio that you can't just package something You had on the radio and throw it into a feed and expect to be successful per se so In some way, sorry that that that begs the question and yes for the grammarians out there This does actually beg the question Are they really doing that? Are they really repackaging is that what you're saying? Are they really recognizing that podcasting is different? No idea. You tell me rob I think some are I think some are I think uh, they also want to take their existing businesses and make them um Compatible with the digital world more because you definitely said you even said it You said that they're figuring out ways to repackage and sort of deliver Which which to me like is nails on a chalkboard because they're just going to send down something down the pipe That was on the air and it doesn't connect with the podcast listener at all Yeah, I mean that's certainly They have this issue of short segments. I mean that's the how they produce they they produce content in between commercial breaks right And I think what they're going to do is they're going to strip out the commercial breaks And stitch the stuff together with dynamic ad insertion and insert new ads Into the content. So they're going to take a similar model to their on-air Activities, but it's going to be in a lower Commercial load right instead of you know 16 ads per hour. They're going to do you know four or five or something So that's kind of what's going to happen. I think this makes me think of like just in an analogy in my world is Uh, when people grew up with television and television ads being like a lot of them Like you're just constantly watching, you know, eight minutes of ads per episode And now a new generation comes up watching youtube and netflix and we're used to No ads ever or at least I am Yes, very. Yeah, sorry like Less ads But now I came up in the same world of of listening to podcasts and now the radio is intolerable to me And I think a generation that's come up with Higher quality podcast ads does hear that new style that sorry the traditional radio style being inserted into the podcast world as like dated and painful and And I don't think it's going to stick. I don't think that the generation that Is coming up on podcast now will have a lot of patience for that ad model you just described Well, I think one of the things to think about is you think about the ads on on radio is That the radio industry doesn't really necessarily control any of that That's that's a lot of it is controlled by the ad agencies themselves and how they produce their commercial content The the part that radio does have control over is how they produce libraries um, so I I believe that radio is going to push more towards libraries or Talent reads is another term that's being used That would be more kind of like voiceover talent doing doing the libraries for the show And maybe there's some similarity in the voice cadence between the host and And the person doing the the library not necessarily to deceive anybody but just to have consistency in the The kind of experience in the show So I think a lot of responsibility falls on the ad agencies to adapt To the digital market more by adapt. You mean give the host creative control like maybe hit some talking But let them take it over because I play I literally played an ad for my wife the other night Just because I was like you can't miss what they said on this was hilarious like you yeah They got to give up control in some way. Yeah Yeah, that's part of the solution. I agree. It is a quarter after the hour So it's time to get to traffic and weather. So oh, yeah on the 9s. Hey What's it looking like now On top of the hour I'll I'll go. Yeah, they still don't get it. Let's roll it back a little bit because I did imply that Panopoly are that there was a related story of tracking essentially tracking users. Tyler. What is this? Panopoly megaphone promo story you have here I know you're self-conscious about your niche niche, but I'm surprised you say it panopoly instead of panoply Oh, well, I think I can't get them all right. I'm gonna say I think it's panoply. This is a gift gift situation I'm gonna argue Right where one your gift is correct and jiff is incorrect. It's just like that Yeah, it's actually a game. It's not a podcast hosting platform. Yeah So, uh, yeah, I just put I put this in I don't know if there was any actual news connected to this But it was a promo that panoply put out about their megaphone platform That's just Promoting it. So I I don't know what actually had changed about this recently I know the platform existed for a little while But it's just about the way that they're doing dynamic ad insertions a little while ago also teamed up with Who is it how stuff works? And so how stuff works is now using those dynamic ad insertions And it was just interesting to see this video on on twitter That had nothing but blowback in negative response Um, yeah, I retweeted one of those today. I'm gonna read it when I find it Because it was from feed press and I thought it was fantastic every every podcast fan that sees this just instantly cringes at the idea that oh like A lot of why I've been able to tolerate podcast ads for a long time is now going to go away And I'm going to get these traditional ones. I I had the experience of specifically what pen please doing Uh listening on which is a new show from how stuff works great show from hosts I've listened to on on other shows where they do the reads and that works great But now the ads are obviously inserted when I download So when I went through to kind of binge and I downloaded 10 episodes at once and listened to them back to back Every episode is the same insertions So I'm now listening to just repeats of the same ads at the same time Over and over and all of the ads were for other shows on the network for some reason Maybe just my demographic that's being targeted. Uh, they haven't sold any actual ad slots too So I'm spending all this time hearing the same ads for shows on their network And they're not even making money off of the things that they inserted for me So here's so I retweeted something that feed press tweeted and and panoply Wait panoply whatever They, um, I'm gonna go mega phone. I'm gonna go with mega phone. And uh, anyways, so it's a different take on this whole thing because mega phone tweeted for the first time in podcasting Target your audience by demographic interest purchase behavior and more with mega phone targeted marketplace See how it works and then feed press. I guess it's called a sub tweet It was a tweet with a comment anyways feed press which I retweeted said Many podcasters make a living with sponsorships in the current model without access to invasive user data like purchase behavior and interest No, thanks. There's enough data collection on the web Podcast apps are a respite from all of that. So we talked a little bit about tracking users And I think Dave you asked what information is reported back. Is it just have they played it or not? But panoply Hmm. They they Are clearly going to be able to serve ads against They're tracking people the way that typically the web does or facebook or someone else does They know who you are what you do and all this stuff. So that's also the blowback I saw to this Man the tweets. I haven't seen a single positive response to this now in response to What tyler was saying is supportive Inserted ads or to what I'm saying and there seems like to be there's two things here going on Yeah, there's the difference between what's most of the black but what's most of the blowback that you're seeing Daniel as you're scrolling through it. What's it against? Well, it's against more ads generally more ads I think the audience Doesn't know and they don't have to know the difference between dynamic versus programmatic Uh, whereas like dynamic could still be interesting dynamic could be I record my own ad And I use software that dynamically inserts that ad in all of my previous episodes And then I decide to re-record my own ad and insert that into new downloads of old episodes So dynamic ad insertion is great. That technology is existed or Daniel records 13 versions of the same ad for different markets, right? Yes, correct. Yeah Now programmatic though is more like banner ads on a site Where the content creator has no control or very little control over what ads display There may be certain keywords that are matched and such But there's automatic bidding going on in the background stuff is just stuck in there Without you're being able to approve it before it goes live now Maybe like with google ads, for example, you can say I don't want these categories on my site Maybe you'll be able to get that kind of control with some providers But in general it's ads inserted into your content over which you have no control over what those ads are And and you can't hear them before they go out I've seen a lot of this out on youtube because there's There exists the traditional youtube ad insertion Which is what most people think about as the way to make money off of youtube They still have banner ads Yeah a pre-roll plays before you don't even know what it's going to be for Yeah, and it stays underneath and there's a link to the person that advertised at the beginning And when people start getting to you I think a little picture ad is being like that's how it can be a youtuber That's how a youtube career can start or something But it's more of talk to bigger youtubers like people that have had real success The the real way to make money on youtube is insert like, uh I guess what you call like like ad reads podcast style or it's like this video is brought to you by blank or there's some kind of It's like natural integration of the ad or that it's A pay like the whole video is like this is a video. This is a sponsored video about this product that stuff pays The bills for for significant youtubers like that's that's the only way that there's Real money to be made and it's funny because I see a lot of people squabbling over the adsense money But it takes quite a lot to make that money Real like to make it substantial enough to count for everything anything because the ad quality is so low That it's just worth fractions of a penny so There's it's so uninteresting for me to see Podcasts enter that market of like yeah, if you can get 100,000 200,000 a million downloads per episode then The ads the ad sense starts to add up. I think that's not the future to me I think it is interesting to look to youtube They've blazed this trail and youtubers have blazed this trail, right? And and I mean independence where you see people who like you said like no one knows me I don't have a name. I didn't come from a big network like I'm not a star coming to this platform already And so with independence making money on youtube, you know, I am surprised by the revenue that I'm able to make at you know, 50,000 plus subs and off of ad sense basically It's amazing to me that that works at all and I think it has to do with the pre-roll and sometimes Those are relevant. I even watch like a movie trailer sometimes whatever that kind of works But it is beer and golf money is what I've always called it in podcasting It might pay your hosting or something else like that, right? But what you're saying sponsored like um Sponsored content, um for sure. Yeah, I mean so with with 50,000 subs on youtube You could you could turn it into a career if you were doing Yeah, the right type of integrations right not google and yeah, exactly the whole thing about they yanked If you didn't have x amount of Watch time in a year. It was like 4,000 hours people were freaking out But it's like, you know what that meant no money Like you don't have to worry about you will get there and then you'll make a little bit of money But you know the success on youtube has always been a diversify and that's been I think the podcasting conversation as well Like, I mean, I don't want to drag on youtube too much There's so much because I have so much to say about it But also like looking at what kc nice that's doing one thing I've noticed is often He'll be using copyrighted music Which means he's not able to monetize a lot of his videos and these are huge videos Like when you see the views they'll get a few million in a couple days Which is thousands of dollars And he will not monetize it in the first place because he wants to use copyrighted music So he's just like letting that money go because he sees that the quality of the work Makes him bigger and like the success is what's able to bring in other money Which is like for him like big sponsorships and things like that And you know that's that's somebody that's already made it but having that perspective of not worrying about the nickels and dimes as much as the big picture I think is something we can take away Also interesting to me is that youtube has solved this Music issue where I think you know tawd is hinting at some stuff I think coming up with some some music some big name music But podcasters in general can't use big music That's a violation and I think maybe it has to do with the download right rob It's it youtube you don't well you can download in youtube red now So I don't know how that works, but youtube if you use a piece of music They monetize they give the money to those who have bought into the platform in the system They give it to that person you use it they get the money from your video right and which is an interesting thing I you know, I don't know if that is if podcasting will ever see something like that If if you want to see something like that I I say just it's not worth it in a podcast to use the music It's not visuals where you need a music bed in general You don't need acdc this time. Yeah, Dave really seriously laid off the acdc But you know, so rob is that you what do you see? You know music in podcasting has always been an issue now with spotify. It's a big issue right you can't even have I'm not even sure you can have royalty free music when you go to spotify it gets all weird Yeah, I mean it is still a mess. I mean the whole thing with music I know we offer royalty free music on on speaker that you can subscribe to for I think it's like a hundred bucks a year you get access to All all sorts of like, you know soundtrack type music It's not going to be top 40 kind of stuff There there isn't even a license available for you to use top 40 type music or pop music or Any of the popular major label music you can't even there is some process for that I know it's really hard and probably really expensive because people will challenge you on that people say Is this a myth? I've actually talked to all I've talked to all of the license holders as as cap BMI all those guys and they'll tell you that nobody's even presented the option to them um, so that's on our shoulders to do is to go in and present a A a license to those groups And then they'll give you feedback on what whether or not it's it's high enough for uh And and then we can maybe talk about a license, but the problem is is that it's downloaded And once you've downloaded you've lost control of that copyrighted content So that's the problem. It can be reshared with other people and and that's that's what holds them back from Even even doing any kind of license But which is yeah, I mean and that's I guess a bigger problem for a show that plays music It's not like if you have a music intro, you know, it's downloading that to keep right But but if you do if you say hey, here's a great song by this new band and we're gonna play it Then you have the full song still not a great way to get your music, but I mean it's It's possible. It's possible that we might see this problem fixed Via the streaming music services or they they they pay for rights around music and maybe podcasts that are available on those platforms could Could utilize the music that's available through through just through those platforms spotify So what is the rule? What is the rule on spotify submissions that have music podcasts that have music in it? Well, how does that work for spotify? They they don't They don't allow it zero not even if you like royalty for you bought it Well, you know, there isn't really any process to to actually review that so I mean Let's give an example So let's say you have a show that you're using You know, like what one of these royalty free music beds. I don't think spotify is worried about that Because almost everyone there's a lot of podcasts on spotify and almost everyone has some type of royalty Correct, right. So it's it's really they're concerned about is the Is the major label stuff, right? That's what they're worried about because that's that's the only liability that they have is on the major label stuff Dave you must give advice on this all the time track. It's it's a problem What's that? So if you start off your show with a jz track, right? That's a problem Yeah, because you see that you must see this all the time Dave because libsons works with spotify and you deal with podcasters Well, yeah, I have people that are like I only play 10 seconds of it Blah blah blah. It's like no no. Nope. Nope. Sorry. No, it's basically no unless I play 10 seconds of it But I'm making fun of it the whole time, right I mean talking over the top of it, right? Yeah I know brian ibbitt went through a whole bunch of things to do coverville And he pays a lot of money a year dan miller I when I talked to him, he said it took him nine months to get A contract with I think sony to pay them 99 dollars a year to use taken care of business But he said the the biggest problem is the record people have no clue what a podcast is. They're just clueless another divide we're just Finding divides and we're trying to break through those walls today. That's what's going on here around table All right. Well, do we have another cool story? Dave? You had uh, I don't think we asked for one of your stories You have two here. So you get to pick Well, the the one story and I actually found another link here is they were saying because uh canker I mean, I'm sorry anchor Has a new one has come out and they they're gonna open up a studio in new york city And the thing is I'll you hear about like i'm sure kasey night. What's how do you say his last name? Yeah, you're good. Nice that i'm sure he's getting paid somehow stat stat niche natch panopoli whatever it is uh um You know, they're spending all this money and i'm like wait a minute I thought anchor's business model was I thought originally was we're gonna get ads and that will and you'll get a piece of that And I actually found a link in tech crunch and it's funny because I actually just put in you know anchor.fm business plan and in this thing at um On tech crunch from 2017 Uh, I just had a dug on it. Daniel. Can you tell why Dave's looking? Daniel, can you tell us why the ire towards anchor as podcasters? Why why do we make the joke about kanker? Why do we why do we dislike this group of the main thing? Is uh the license that you are giving them by Everything on their platform. You are giving them the rights to do whatever they want with your content And by giving this is they they define this right their toa their terms of service are saying we get it all Yeah, um now you still own it, but you're giving them an eerie No, they don't use the word irrevocable now you're giving them basically a lifetime license And it's not only for anchor to do whatever they want with it But the license also says that other anchor users can do whatever they want almost whatever they want with your own content Is this the only problem? That's like if you're looking. Yeah, well, it's it even goes a little deeper than that There's what's yeah, I went to the the presentation that anchor gave at podcast movement It was right the the last day. I heard this was a sales job not a presentation. Yeah, it was a total pitch But really I think the big big issue with anchor is the derivative content that they're They're talking about creating From your podcast meaning they're going to Chop up your stuff and use it. How what do they mean? Um, that's the big question is exactly what they're going to do with that But they they have talked about creating videos about your podcast Kind of like what facebook does so if you think about some of the things that facebook does right with our our content on there uh anchor is thinking about those things right creating derivative content of making clips Transcribing using using the content in various ways that are out of your control Right and and at the end of the day who owns that that derivative content Anchor does so if you want to move your show are you going to be able to move that derivative content to another platform? And who else is going to be supporting that? Yeah, so the um, I found this article and they're interviewing one of the co-founders And it says but anchor is still a while away from becoming a full-fledged business realize they were started in 2015 So they're they're coming up on their three-year anniversary. Uh, it's not generated revenue yet Mignano, which is one of the co-founders says that anchor is working on a plan That will allow both the startup and its creators to make money from the content And the more I look into this I cannot find any details on what their plan is It's just like yeah, we're working on a thing and we're going to make money This seems like a thing that several people are working on they they Apps want to also be youtube in that they want to help the creator make money too, right? And and we know we're not fooled by this on google the more more eyeballs We bring them the more money they make and add revenue and you get a little tiny piece of that But it seems like apps, you know, put some of these podcasting apps want to do that as well Is there a difference? Rob You were for sprigger. Dave. You're in limson. Is there a difference between these I don't know if I'd call them traditional podcast media hosts and apps. I guess how many apps are there I mean, there's anchor. I don't know if there's many more apps But is that is the mind think sort of different, you know, they said they're trying to emulate facebook in a lot of ways Is it different because they're an app and they're just trying to do something more From people that I've seen try to use it Like I've seen some people start podcasts that never would have started a podcast because of anchor I've seen it happen a couple times now. Yeah, and I do think that's positive like yes I'm definitely suspicious of some things anchors doing So motivations are probably somewhat mixed, but I think they this isn't your youtube sponsor. Is it that word now? No I think they are hoping for I get the impression that they're Hope for the same pop stuff that has come out of youtube or instagram or whatever that Take away all the obstacles and average people without technical backgrounds can benefit from the power of social networks Meanwhile, we're going to profit Well, well, we're the brand name of it But I mean, but the fact that they're not admitting to any of it Basically, we know what they're doing. They want to do what everybody else does You know, whether they say it or not they want to be youtube they want to be facebook and It could have really mixed results like did The world of photography get better or worse when instagram became the biggest photography platform Like was it better when we all hosted our own websites? And that's the only places that you'd find a portfolio Or is it useful to have this one unified platform that we all know we can go to and see each other's work like It's not a simple answer. Basically, there have there have been benefits and there's been huge detriments as well like it's Why I was listening to uh, rob walch's presentation from uh podcast movement and in it he insinuates that the median download From anchor is zero Well, you know, Dave, they're not focused on the listening side that that's what their CEO said at the presentation You're they're an audio platform. What are they focused on? They're they're trying to gather up People that eyeballs they're this is a massive. This is a mass. I'm not eyeballs, but you're you're you're But um, this is a massively funded venture capital based company, right? What are the goals of a venture based company, right? To grow really fast And be disruptive, right? And that's what these folks are doing. They're they're cutting corners There there's a lot of people in the medium that think that they're cheating in some ways here, too They're auto submitting content producers into apple podcasts through the the whole network page Uh, I don't know a little lot of people know about that but that cuts you out from being able to get access Um to your stats in apple's platform based on your apple id Yeah, that's that's the one that makes me scratch my head because I know how much podcasters love stats and I go Hey, guess what? You're not going to get your stats from apple and they go home care. It's free and I'm like, oh Geez, so Well, and you talk to apple about that and they'll go They told me that They don't agree with that. Uh, it's it's against what they want They want every podcaster to have an apple id associated with their show And it's a big uh issue of customer support potentially for them So if anchor brings in a bunch of shows And then a bunch of those shows decide that they they want to get access to their apple id accounts. Guess what? It's a support issue. So look anchor has changed what anchor has been like three different times I just this is just the next move on their way to death is what i'm actually just hearing Sorry Anchor used to be I loved what anchor was when it first came out Loved it that said did I use it? No, I also like snapchat. I don't use it But anchor was the best app I didn't use because I for the first time with my podcast listeners You would you would talk into anchor in your phone super simple and people would respond with their voice and holy cow It changed the experience with your podcast audience when you heard those people and the conversations were so easy to have Clearly that didn't work out Clearly it's because what rob said they wanted to explode growth and make money and and just Do this app and write and be an app and succeed. So, you know, it's It they sound dangerous like I what they keep trying to do is just trying to make fast money I mean, I think the Oh, no, that was uh, what was that one we used to use with the four people in a box Lab which was also great and he said I mean that guy's like I didn't make enough money with it So we got to change we're out of here So I I need to go back and find the clip because I had them on my show I had blab on my show and i'm like, hey Like bandwidth isn't free and they're like, oh well, we came from this other company where we made like 36 gazillion dollars. We got money in the bank and the next thing you know, they're like, yeah, we're out of here Blab was great too. It's too bad that they wanted things that were not They weren't in it for the right reasons, right So I just wanted to point out that that anchors again spending more money because you know, I'm sure you can't find A recording studio anywhere in new york city So they're gonna build one or not for free. Dave. Yeah, I want free I don't want to pay for anything that microphone free That's a great business model. We know how that works out Yes, um, this whole zero listeners thing reminds me of a really great piece in the verge last month about twitch So as I was reading it, I was just translating everything to the podcast world And it was about all of the streamers on twitch that are streaming to zero people That will do it for Months or years and like there's four, you know, there's subreddits about it where just a lot of people are like, you know I've really just really been trying to grow it for years now and uh, you know Sometimes I'll have like two or three people and they just keep Streaming for hours and hours at a time now We need that kind of resilience in podcasters because podcasters put out episode one and they're disappointed that they don't have more than five downloads 100% no, it's true But but that's so like what I was seeing what it made me think about though is that The way that twitch works has some of the same issues because when people are watching They can only watch one person at a time and for a sustained amount of time Like, you know, you'd watch somebody stream for an hour or more and podcasts can be similar in length Like they're relatively long you have less bandwidth per day You can only really afford to subscribe to so many shows per month per week Realistic get through so if anchor wants everyone in the world to start their own show and be their own podcast host It's not surprising that they're not concerned about nobody listening because they're not kind of doing the math of What's happening on twitch that like some people are becoming massively successful and getting you know millions of streams concurrently But it doesn't leave a lot of audience for the rest of them Plus the the numbers are starting to come out showing that the pod fade the percentage of pod fade coming out of anchor is extremely high and And that pod fade number is hitting as low as three episodes And that's part of the making it super easy to start is going to be a higher attrition rate, right? I mean like it's just it's You find out. Wow, this is hard to do on a weekly basis That's one of one of the things I liked about we were talking earlier about radio people coming in I kind of like that because You gotta you know, some of those are going to be good And that might actually that might actually scare some people like well, I can't compete with them And so the four guys one brain show is not going to happen and I'm like Is that really such a bad thing? I don't know And those people that really want to do that because I want to connect with my old high school buddies They're going to do it anyway. So Yeah So I'll be interested to see if that has any kind of that effect Cool. Well, I think I think we're good on the on the stories are of course more to get to daniel You you thought maybe you might want to give a thought or two on podcast movement three of you guys were there So if there's something you want to say about that and then we'll head on out Well, I'll I'll share a different story actually not podcast movement related This came from chris nessie in the chat room Android auto will soon support google podcasts google is testing the google podcast support on android auto And I think this is a good thing because more and more cars or automobiles Are coming out with android auto and carplay support and I got my first chance to drive a car Not ever I mean first chance to drive a car with carplay. What was it like? So exciting I put my foot down and I went somewhere Wow grads on living the story of my life The the cool thing I could use bluetooth or connect my phone via a cable which I chose to connect my phone circuit charge But I could play my podcast through the carplay system and on a long trip That was really nice and not to have to mess with earphones and stuff like that So the carplay Car audio system connecting to your phone I think is a good direction to go because Our phones are becoming the hubs for our content consumption And supporting a way to connect that to your car I think is a good idea not to try and make your car a consumption Portal or consumption hub but connecting it to something else So google podcasts being Soon to come to android auto. I think we'll this I'm not saying it's going to be huge But I think it's a really good step and I'm really glad that they're already Looking at doing that and we'll probably see that released in the next couple of months Emily says it works with pocket casts my personal favorite. So it's interesting And also these Smart voice agents are are coming to the car too. So we're we're gonna see So they got to do something because we're not listening to podcasts on them That was one of those numbers. I saw coming out of homes. That's right. Yeah less than 1% It's just It's all made a good. Well, it needs to be more. It needs to be more natural language It's it it's too structured. Um in in how you have to ask for the content Well, just from a consumer perspective think like that at least in the car you're by yourself I'm telling you people don't listen to podcasts together or out loud, right? It's in your ear, but in a car you're by yourself in general I mean not in general a lot of people commute their car. So It could be a good fit, right? If the tech is gonna, you know, this is gonna have an echo It's gonna work google home. It's gonna work. It's a personal medium, right? Yeah, that's that's the word. That's the word That's where we should be here ASMR All right I'm thinking of goofing around, you know, it's funny because as we get Further on into a podcast we are this is over an hour now. This is typically an hour show I feel like it's okay feels it feels more freeing to Um go off on a tangent or talk about things that are more personal or have more fun because at this point if people are still listening They're in right they they enjoy listening to Dave me You know they're in and I don't think it matters So I do I have this internal clock where I'm like I've hit the threshold where I don't have to get To the point as much or or or to get the most important stuff out I don't know Maybe I'm a youtuber and I'm just like hey look if I if I talk about anything else than the point How they're gonna drop off but um So anyways We will we will wrap it up, but uh, we'll thank everyone for joining us. I actually enjoyed this one a lot So thanks everyone Daniel. Thanks as always co-hosting duties here on the round table Thank you. Check out my stuff when it returns eventually and it will return at the audacity to podcast dot com And on twitter at the daniel j lewis Very cool. Dave Jackson as always. Thank you, sir Thank you, ray. Uh, find me at school of podcasting.com and At twitter at Dave Jackson if you're watching the live or the archive video, you can see it right on his shirt Good job, Dave. Thank you sir. Way to brain yourself for the entire episode. I love it See daniel's always good at getting in an extra plug, but Dave has got in the plug for the entire hour So that's next level stuff. Good. Good job Rob You've been here probably too many times. I probably have to to not invite you back anymore because that's right I can't give you a t-shirt anymore. That's right. Anyways, thanks again Daniel and Dave's been here more than me. So they're they're branded. They're they're technically host so they they don't count There you go. It's okay But yeah, I can be found at the speaker live show dot com and new media show dot com and twitter so very cool All right, tyler. Welcome back from the the great north tyler stallman. Thank you for joining us so much That's what they call it. I'm so glad to be here. Thanks It's it is north and it's great Yeah, it's been a hot summer in canada Where can we find your stuff? We want to listen to those podcasts I mean, I would just search for my last name st al man stallman Because then you'll find my youtube or podcast or whatever you want. Please tell me you also registered st al l man I bet that's taken No, it's been taken for a while now. I bet yeah, all right, maybe three else. I don't know Yeah, I'll just keep on just keep adding else. It's gonna get real expensive. All right Podcasters round table dot com slash guest if you want to join us If you're listening this far, you are definitely the type that would enjoy being on the round table So sign up and we'll get you in on one of these 115 will be next and uh keyword fortnightly. I want to put that into the algorithm We are fortnightly if you play fortnight, you'd really love this show There's no relation at all. I don't know the name fortnight fortnight. All right. We're out of here Uh, I prefer pub g see you next time wave. Goodbye You