 Welcome to this event which is held here at SOAS and hosted by the Centre for Southeast Asian Studies at SOAS. My name is Ben Murta and I'm co-managing editor of the journal Indonesia and the Malay World and reader in Indonesian and Malay here at SOAS. It's a great pleasure to welcome you all to this event celebrating the recent IMW special issue of the collected works of Russell Jones with his focus on Malay manuscripts and in particular paper and watermarks. The special issue, expertly edited by my colleague Dr Farah Yahya, who will be speaking in a moment, was published in July this year and is available online or in print versions. I should thank my colleague and co-managing editor of the journal Pauline Kung for her ever tireless work in preparing the copy publication and to Emily and Lawrence at Taylor and Francis and other members of the editorial board of IMW who supported this publication in different ways. I should also thank and welcome Safran and Myrie Jones who are here today and who were also most supportive of this issue. Now I'm sure that Russell Jones was known to many of us here either in person or through his work. He was lecturer in Indonesian here at SOAS between 1967 and 1985 and was also one of the founding members of Indonesia Circle, which later became Indonesia and Malay World. And so it's with great pleasure to welcome you all here today for the discussion of his works. I should now introduce my colleague, Dr Farah Yahya. Farah is research associate in the Department of History of Art and Archaeology in the School of Arts here at SOAS. His own research interests include the Southeast Asian arts of the book, as well as texts and images relating to magic and divination is the author of magic and divination in Malay illustrated manuscripts, which was published by Brill in 2016. The editor of the arts of Southeast Asia from the SOAS collections from Haruka Books 2017 and co-editor of Islamica occult sciences in theory and practice from Brill again 2020 to 2021. But today, Faruk is here to discuss Russell's work on paper, watermarks and manuscripts more generally. He's going to talk for 20 to 25 minutes or so. And after that we will have time for questions and also for some comments and memories of Russell. So over to you Faruk. Thank you very much indeed for coming and speaking here today. Thank you very much, Ben, for the introduction. And also thank you very much to the SOAS Centre of Southeast Asian Studies, especially Rachel Harrison and Charles Telendu Obstel for hosting the event today. So hello everyone. It's a pity you can't have this in person so otherwise we could have a bit of, you know, maca maca or something. But on the other hand, the online format of today makes it possible for those outside London to join us and it's very heartening to see so many people from all across the world joining us for this event today. So let me just share my screen. I've got a short PowerPoint presentation. So, so as Ben mentioned, today's event is to celebrate the recent publication of a special issue of the SOAS Space Journal Indonesian Malay world, which gathers together the works of Russell Jones on the paper used for copying Malay manuscripts and watermarks. Now Russell have been working on publishing collection of his works on this topic for a very long time, but sadly never got to complete it before he passed in 2019. So the publication of this special issue is intended to go some way towards fulfilling some of his plans, and as a thank you and tribute to one of the founders of this journal. And to me personally it was a pleasure and indeed an honor to be able to edit the volume of Russell's works, which are so important for the study of Malay manuscripts. Although I was never formally one of Russell's students Russell gave me a lot of guidance and help in my research, even going back to when I was first starting my PhD. And indeed in 2015 Russell had actually approached me to help him edit put together the publication of his collected work so it felt quite appropriate for me to guess edit this present special issue. So we owe many thanks to Russell's family, Moira and Stefan Jones for their kind support in the publication of this special issue, and for generously sharing Russell's works and materials. We are also grateful to the various publishers journals institutions and individuals for their generosity in providing and granting us permission to reproduce the articles and images included in this issue, including Ali Akbar the ancient Indian Trust Association, ITFL, Bodlin Library, Braille Publishing, the British Association of Paper Historians, the British Library, the Ambassador Mestaka, the International Association of Paper Historians, the Malaysian branch of the Royal Asiatic Society, Pubstok Anagara Malaysia, Pusat Dokumentasi dan Informasi Aceh, Claire Reynolds, SOAS, especially the bulletin of the School of Oriental African Studies and the SOAS Library Special Collections, the University of Delhi, Studi di Napoli Orientali, University of Malaya, and University of Science Malaysia, especially the School of Social Sciences. Many thanks are also due to the members of the editorial board of the journal for the expert help and advice, especially Helen Cordell, Annabel Gallup, Pauline Keung, and Ben Murta, and many other individuals who help with various aspects of the publication, including Ms Oriente, Emma Brown, and James Fleming, David Chamberlain, Peter Bauer, and Greg Ritchell, Tanya Tolla, John Weedy, and any others whom I might have missed, apologies for that. And finally, thanks also are due to our publisher, Taylor Francis, especially Emily and Lawrence for all their help. Today, I would like to give a brief overview of the volume but before we go into that, so let's take a quick look at the man himself. Now Russell was born in 1926 in Hay on Y in Hertfordshire. When he was 16, he started his first job as a junior clerk with the Shropshire Constabulary in Shrewsbury. He was enlisted in the Royal Marines and at the age of 19, he was posted to Singapore and Batavia, now Jakarta, following the end of World War II. Now his experiences in this region led him to enroll for BA degree in Malay at SOAS. Now he also interrupted his studies to pursue a career with the Colonial Service in Malaya, and 10 years later returned to SOAS to complete his degree, graduating in 1960. From 1961 to 1965, Russell was lecturer of Malay at the University of Sydney, before taking up a position as lecturer of Indonesian at SOAS in October 1967, so exactly 54 years ago today. Between all this, he embarked on a postgraduate research degree at Layden University, and later submitted his PhD dissertation at SOAS on the Hikaya Ibrahim Ibn Adam, a Malay account of an eighth century Sufi saint. Russell retired from SOAS in 1984, but still kept his association with the university. Russell's scholarly output included studies on a diverse range of topics such as the etymology of Malay words, and early British studies on the Malay language. He also published editions of important Malay texts, including Hikaya Rajapasai, which is the oldest known Malay historical chronicle. Russell was also instrumental in founding the Indonesian etymological project in 1973, which consisted of a group of scholars who worked to identify the origins of Indonesian loan words. And they published the loan words, the book The Loan Words in Indonesian and Malay in 2007 with Russell as the general editor. Now, although Russell is perhaps predominantly known as a scholar of Malay, he also knew Hopkins and conducted research in this area. Russell, for instance, wrote the introduction to a 2007 reprint of the 1899 Dictionary of Amoy Chinese by Carstass Douglas. And I've just been informed recently that Russell was also the consultant for Malay for the Oxford English Dictionary. Now, this brief account does not do justice to Russell's long and illustrious academic career. So for further information on Russell's life and list of his publications. Please see his obituary in issue 140 of Indonesian Malay world published in 2020. In his lectureship at so as Russell put forward a proposal for the founding of an association focusing on the study of Indonesia. Founded in 1973, it was named Indonesia Circle, and it organized a series of gatherings and publish a newsletter, which later evolves into the peer reviewed journal Indonesia and Malay world. In 2013, Russell contributed an account of the history of the journal for the 40th anniversary of the formation of Indonesia Circle. Now Russell believed that it was vital to study not only what's written on paper, but also paper itself. He stressed the importance of looking at the manuscript as a whole, and was a pioneer in the field of Malay codicology which is the study of the material aspects of manuscripts like the paper, the ink binding and so on. So by examining the physical features of the manuscript, we can obtain a wealth of information not only on the production and history of the manuscript cell but also the society in which the manuscripts was made and used. Now a major issue affecting the study of Malay manuscripts that many of them do not have color fonts and do not have dates. Russell argued that by investigating the physical features of a manuscript, it can be a very valuable and providing an estimate for when and where the manuscript was copied. He applied the study of paper and watermarks, watermarks is the graphic design used by paper manufacturers sort of form of trademark and you can see an example in my background. So he applied the study of paper watermark in his PhD thesis in the in the 1960s. And over the following decades, he delved deeper into the study of paper watermarks and published a number of seminal articles on this topic, many of which are included within this special issue. Now it can be seen in the various articles included his detailed and meticulous investigations has resulted in a number of significant significant findings. Apart from more practical applications Russell also argued that the study of paper has implications for the broader field of Southeast Asian studies. He argued that it can shed light into the historical connections between Southeast Asia and the wider world, and can provide an insight into the economic history of the region. The use of paper imported from Europe, India and China demonstrates the importance played by trade routes and international networks in the Malay scribal tradition. Russell's work have had a great impact internationally with his articles having also been translated into other languages such as Malay and Persian to these ones here. However, Russell found that it was not enough to read about paper, but that one also needs to have hands on experience of the material in pursuit of this he spent much time in libraries pouring over manuscripts. Just in this photo here and purchased all books just so that he could examine the paper. He also collected manuscripts from Southeast Asia, which are now kept in British library for example this beautifully illuminated model kit up model on the screen here. And he also visited paper mills. So this, he also visited one in Southeast China in 1994. So this is where he published an article about in 2002. Russell superior knowledge on paper and watermarks have led many scholars and students to seek his help, and he freely shared his knowledge with anyone who contacted him. He was even referred to by Cyril Skinner in 1982 as the Sherlock Holmes of the world of Malay manuscript, a comparison that Russell was particularly delighted about. And he had this slide at the end of his presentation so I thought it was quite amusing. Russell was an active member of the academic community and was part of a number of associations, his longest serving member of the Malaysian branch of the Royal Asiatic Society, and he was also one of the founders of the British Association of paper historians, as well as a member of the International Association of paper historians. Russell's interest in paper, even extended towards trying to produce it himself. After retiring from service in in nine after retiring from service in 1987 he moved to Cornwall with the intention of restoring annual water mill to produce paper. Although this venture was not successful Russell continued to conduct research on the paper mills and paper makers in Cornwall during the 18th and 19th centuries. So this is an example of a paper mill in Cornwall. So his material on this topic, on this topic has been deposited at the Crescent Kernel archive in Red Ruth in Cornwall. For many years Russell had wanted to disseminate his knowledge to future generations of scholars librarians and archivists. He wanted to do the following. Firstly, to set up an online database of watermarks based on manuscripts and documents produced in South East Asia. He also wanted to train scholars to continue his work in investigating paper and watermarks, specifically in the form of conducting a workshop. He wanted to set up a dedicated center for the study of molecular ecology, which should also host the website online database and also have a small library. And finally he also wanted to publish a book on paper and watermarks. Russell spent many years working on these and in 2015 helped in a generous grant from his soil Highness Sultan Nazrin Shah Sultan of Para for to help with his efforts, but sadly passed away before his plans could be brought into fruition. So this special issue of Indonesia and the Malay world is therefore stepped towards an implementation of Russell's plans. He's been planning the publication for for a while and was to consist of a compilation of his previous articles on paper and watermarks, together with some introductory chapters on the history and characteristics of paper, some guidance on how to investigate it, how to investigate paper and watermarks bibliography and index and some appendices. The initial issue includes 17 published articles that Russell had selected in his original book proposal, but unfortunately the supplementary material that Russell had originally planned to include such as the chapters on the history of paper, either could not be located or are in very draft form. So they regrettably they had to be excluded from the present special issue. In their place I've added a couple of unpublished works by by Russell on the use of Chinese paper and Malay manuscripts. So, so these are the contents of the special issue. It begins with an introduction by myself which gives a background on Russell's work on the topic as well as as well as an overview of the articles that are included. The earliest article is number 15, which is the dating of MS Max 193 in the Royal Asiatic Society, which first appeared in the Journal of the Malaysian branch of the Royal Asiatic Society, Volume 45. The first article is a 1932 issue, although it's published in January 1973. And the latest is number 14, which is Chinese paper used for Malay for manuscripts in the Malay world, which is an unpublished paper from 2014. As you may notice, the articles are not arranged chronologically but instead are divided by themes and split into three parts. So the first part history gives an account of the history of the Malay manuscript tradition and the types of paper that were used. So the paper paper is basically made by make macerating fiber and mixing it with water to form a pulp which is then sieved. Now this technique was invented in China and knowledge of paper making later spread to the Islamic world, Europe and India. Russell's 1993 article, European and Asian papers in Malay manuscripts, a provisional assessment. Let me just forward it. Number three in this issue investigates the impact of these regions upon the use of paper in Southeast Asia. Russell found that while there's some evidence for the use of Indian and Chinese papers, these are sort of rather limited, they constitute only about 5% of the extent corpus of Malay manuscripts. In contrast, the usage of European paper was was much more ubiquitous, which and they constitute the vast majority of surviving Malay manuscripts and European paper can be easily identified by the presence of watermarks such as these ones here. The European paper accompanied the expansion of Western powers in Southeast Asia. By the 18th and 19th centuries, the Dutch and the British were among the main supplies of paper in maritime Southeast Asia. So the one on the left, the Dutch line is basically a Dutch watermark and the one on the right, what man is a British company. British paper maker. There was additionally another stream of European paper that existed outside colonial channels. This comprised paper from Italy, which Russell investigated in his 1998 article Crescent and Eagle watermarks in Malay manuscripts, which is number four in the special issue. What is commonly found in this type of paper include three Crescent moons in a row since this one top left a moon face such as these ones here where Crescent Moon has a human face in the profile and a double headed eagle. In British paper the use of Italian paper in Southeast Asia did not have colonial connections. Now Italian paper was widely used in Egypt and from there it was re exported to other parts of Africa, and also to Arabia. So Russell proposed that Italian paper was exported into Southeast Asia from Mecca, and he also raised the possibility that the import of Italian paper into Southeast Asia, replace an earlier trade of Islamic paper into the region. So part of the special issue methodology provides some guidance on the techniques that can be used to investigate paper and record information, as well as future steps to take the studies forward. So for Malay manuscripts are commonly of European manufacture watermarks can also provide a clue to the date of manuscripts, and he discusses this in his 1988 article from paper mill to scribe the lapse of time which is number nine in this special issue. Determining the date of a manuscript can be done in a number of ways depending on whether the watermark is dated or undated. The watermark that has a date, and these are typically those are British manufacturer can produce the earliest date in which a manuscript could have been copied. But in this research Russell found that two thirds of the Malay manuscripts were copied within four years of the manufacturer of the paper, and more than 90% were copied within eight years of the manufacturer of the paper. However, if a man watermark does not have a date, there are other methods which can use to date a manuscript. One way is to compare the watermark against other variants of the design. The watermark Guthrie and Co after 1903 the watermark became Guthrie and Co limited, which reflects the name change of the company. So this watermark on the screen for example would be dated after 1903 because he has limited at the end. Another method is to look at dated manuscripts containing the same watermarks as the one we're curing about. So there are a number of European watermark catalogs such as those by Edward Hayward and William Churchill. However, Russell strongly cautions against using them for dating Malay manuscripts. This is because the examples given in these publications only go up to 1800, whereas Malay manuscripts are predominantly later from the 19th century. So relying upon them for dating Malay material can therefore lead to misleading results as watermark designs will often use for a very long time. Instead, Russell argued that a better approach would be to create a corpus watermarks specifically based on Southeast Asian material and use them to date manuscripts through a form of cluster analysis. So this is why an online database of watermarks that Russell had suggested would be very helpful. Russell explains this. In his 1988 article, Western Batman Oriental scribe, which is number 10 in this issue. And he says, I quote, what we have to do is look at to look up all the manuscripts you have noted with that watermark. If we then observe the dates of those manuscripts which have been dated. We have a cluster of dates within which with reasonable confidence we can date the queried manuscript. Other look to characteristics of the paper are equally important to be noted. In his 2011 article, what about icons or words with reference to methods of dating Malay manuscripts, which is number 11 in the special issue. Russell notes that chain lines. So chain lines are basically lines that appear on the paper as a result of the wires from the paper mold. So chain lines are also helpful in identifying the type of paper and its date. As you guys observed that presence of chain line shadows so shadows along the chain lines also known as bar shadows indicate that the paper was made prior to the 19th century. And which therefore gives another method for dating paper so here are two examples of chain lines the one at the top has shadows along the lines and the ones that the paper at the bottom doesn't so the one at the top would date to before 1800 while the one at the top would date to after 1800. So far the discussion has been focused on the investigation of European paper. Asian paper however can be more difficult to ascertain, but they have certain characteristics that can help to identify them, particularly in regard to Chinese paper. So this is this in an unpublished paper that he presented at the study day study day on Indonesian manuscripts at the British Library in 2001, titled some remarks on narrow chain line intervals in paper with particular reference Chinese papers which is number 13 in the special issue. In the European paper the intervals between some chain lines are narrower than other intervals. So basically in European paper the chain lines are in regular intervals by an Asian paper they're not. And usually, there's some of them are narrower than the others and they usually appear sort of in pairs or in three so this manuscript of the Hekaya Sri Rama in the bottom library has this sort of pattern of chain line intervals. Also, you might be interested to know that the paper this paper of this manuscript also has a Chinese seal, which denoted the paper the maker or distributor of the paper indicating that it was of Chinese origin. And recently Annabel Gallup and Kawashima Midori have identified several other manuscripts from maritime Southeast Asia with similar papers bearing Chinese seals. And Russell discusses this, these findings in an unpublished articles from 2014 Chinese paper used for manuscripts in Malay world which is number 14 in the special issue. The third part of the special issue application highlights a number of case studies that show how Russell had applied techniques. He demonstrated this for instance in a 1983 article and essay at dating and description author Malay manuscript, which is number 18 in this special issue, which he co-authored with Clare Roundtree, now Clare Reynolds, who was a paper conservator at the British Library. In the British Library Russell showed how the results produced by examining the characteristics of the paper and the history of a manuscript can tally with the date given in the colophon, which in this case is 1802. In 2004, Russell donated to Suez Library his collection of beta radiographic negatives and prints of watermarks together with the register and the equipment used to create them. This is the, I believe the single most comprehensive collection of watermarks of Malay manuscripts. The register of this, of these watermarks is published for the first time in the appendix of the present issue. The first listed in the 121 entries consist of reproductions made it so as between 1980 and 1990, and also includes a few watermarks from the collection of Terence Waltz in New York. Each entry is accompanied by details of the manuscript. This is an example of how the image was taken from, including its date, which is a key element which will help us in in dating other manuscripts with similar watermarks. The special issue ends with the brief post script. It is based on an extract from the concluding chapter of his proposed book, and it provides a summary of the main points that have been covered. I hope that this special issue of Indonesia and the Malay world will be useful resource for the study of Malay codicology, particularly on paper and watermarks, and of formalized manuscript studies more generally. In doing so, it will fulfill Russell's wish to impart the deep knowledge he had acquired over his long career to future generations. The words compiled in this issue are a testament to Russell's dedication to the field of Malay codicology. I would like to thank Russell Jones, without whom none of this would have been possible. We are honored to have had the opportunity to work with him and learn from his guidance. And this special issue is a mark of our appreciation for his unending efforts, support and generosity, both for establishing and developing the journal into what it is today, and also for advancing the field of Malay manuscript studies. Thank you for your rest in peace, Russell. So thank you very much. Over to you back to you, Ben. Thank you very much indeed, Farooq for that. We have an hour altogether for our session today. We're on half past 11 so that means we do have time for questions we have time for memories of Russell and his work and him as a scholar and as a person. So if anyone would like to say something, please just raise your hand and my colleague Charles can sort of will allow you to speak, or if you wish to put anything into the question box. I'll do that as well and then I can read out the question for you. I can see that it seems like we have about 80. Well I think we had a maximum of 87 people I know people drop in and drop out of this, and it really is great to see so many friends and colleagues from across the world at the event. It would be great to hear from any of you any of your thoughts on Russell's work and so on so please do put up your hand if you'd like to speak and please be brave and go first. I think, while everyone else is thinking of a question, I'm just going to put you on the spot Farooq and say, Can you give us an example of where you've actually used this catalogue of watermarks and so on to try and date. A piece of work of your own. Is there an incident, an instance where you can use this for yourself. I know that I, when I first met Russell, when I was working on my MA dissertation, you know, as is noted in Russell's obituary, you know, the first thing he said to me was what about the paper and then I immediately. It hadn't occurred to me to look at the watermark so back I went to the Royal Asiatic Society to look at the watermark and so on, but Farooq. Yes, yes I have used Russell's knowledge. When I was doing my PhD I didn't, I emailed him whenever I had a question about manuscript and trying to date it I would send him photos to the watermark and he immediately would reply. So this watermark has been found in another manuscript of this date and that date so your manuscript was probably dates around a similar time period. So so Russell is very helpful to me in that sense and I've also applied it myself this cluster analysis for whenever I find a watermark. I tried to look up what I tried to look up myself without consulting without needing to consult Russell what other manuscripts contain also the same watermarks and by that. Again, I can, you know, help to figure a, you know, a time, time period arranged for to place my manuscript within a time frame. So, so I have used this methods are quite a lot in the very helpful. A hand raised by one Ali one mama. Charles are you able to. Yeah, so welcome. Farooq away with the question. Hopefully you can speak now. Hello, can you hear me. We can yes. First congratulation to brother, Dr. Farooq for making the collection of articles by Dr. Russell Jones possible to be published. It brings to me good memory of my relationship with. Dr. Russell Jones because in 1987, I was doing my master in library sign in UCL in UCL of London, and he was my lecturer. And when I did the short essay or long essay week in Malaysia we call it the thesis. Here it supervised me and he guided me and show me his works. And I think a few of the papers that has been published, he showed me when I was a student under his guidance. And I think, and I also visited his house and his study is that the apartment. And I heard just now the wife of Dr. Russell Jones and his daughter is here. I cannot remember their names, but I remember I visited the house and I saw the doctor. At that time, maybe about six or seven months old, and I met the wife also. So it brings me good memory of my teacher, Dr. Russell Jones, when I attend this session. I think that's all from me. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for that. What a lovely memory to start. And I think so many of us here have sort of worked with Russell in so many different ways as you know many of us were with sort of his either official or unofficial student. Others will have worked alongside him as colleagues but that's a lovely memory. Thank you very much for that. I can see that we had a question in the box about the the equipment in the library from from Daven Chamberlain with is the beta radiography equipment still at so us. If so, is it still operational and is there any possibility of it being used. I think you've answered, we need to ask the special collections. Yes. Yeah, so get in touch with the special, if you send an email to the special collections, so I think they're going to be closed for a few months coming up now but normally it's quite possible to visit the in normal times at least it's it's possible to go in and visit the special collections, but do ask them about that equipment, at least. I can see now we have a question hand raised by Dr. Annabel Gallup of the British Library. So maybe Charles you can. Yeah, I think you're okay. Can you hear me now. Yes, we can. Thank you so much. What a wonderful tribute Farouk and it's wonderful moya and saffron that you're attending to. I was probably one of the last cohort to be actually taught by Russell at so s. I arrived in 1983 for my MA my masters in Indonesian and Malay studies and Russell taught me traditional Malay literature for that first year. So I always found Russell a bit. I mean I learned so much from him from you know I studied, you know, this is Jeremiah you he kind of Raja Passai or you know the major works with him. He found him a bit remote at that time, when I was at so s and it's really only helping with the notes towards his obituary so sadly that I realized that there was a lot going on that behind the scenes that as a student you wouldn't know that he had quite a lot of problems with, you know, problems with so as itself. And so it was, I was attending so as for two year masters and it came as a great surprise when Russell very suddenly took early retirement at the end of my first year so in 1984. I've known Russell ever since and what I think is so extraordinary about Russell is that most scholars you know to get very active in their middle years and then gradually sort of fade away but Russell the opposite happened he got busy and busy and busy. And so we were just in awe of him that, you know, right into his 80s and even his early 90s. His overriding ambition was to impart his knowledge about the importance of Malay manuscripts and their paper and their watermarks. All his time was devoted to trying to ensure that all the knowledge that he had gathered would be imparted and so, you know, even extending to a visit to Indonesia in his 80s when he was hosted by Amin Sweeney and, you know, who followed him around and he kept propping him up and sort of making sure that he was he was looked after at all stages. But I think all of us who knew him particularly in his later years just could not fail to be absolutely so impressed and touched and humbled by his dedication to ensuring that his knowledge was passed on to future generations. And that's my overriding impression of Russell is really how his stature as a scholar just sort of grew and grew and grew, you know, it right up to the very end of his life. Thanks. Thank you so much, Annabelle. Any more comments or questions or memories from guests. I know that there are so many of you. I have Peter Boa, Peter Bauer. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. I had the privilege of knowing Russell for over 40 years. I'm the president of the British Association of Paper Historians who published several of the articles in this recent commemorative volume. I also have personal memories because as a child I lived in Penang. And at this time, though we never worked out whether we could possibly have ever met, Russell was working in Penang. If we did ever meet, when in the 1950s it would have been probably at Penang Cricket Club, a beautiful cricket pitch. But it was a delight to know him. And I do have a question for Farooq. Who now is work in your field is actually working on paper, watermarks and things? Or are people just generally using the basis of what Russell set up? But is there ongoing research into this? I guess, thank you very much Peter for the comments. Just to answer your question, I guess I'm doing some research on watermarks. I always, whenever I look at manuscripts, I do try to take note of what watermarks they are. And so I like to think that I try to continue some of Russell's works. And in fact I did give a course on codecology of Malay manuscripts at the Islamic Arts Museum in Malaysia a few years ago. I did try to incorporate some of his research in that. So in terms of codecological studies, it's something that I personally am interested in. But I know others have also utilized his works. And I know that libraries, many libraries are now starting to value paper and watermarks. And for example, the National Library of Malaysia and Kuala Lumpur do take note of what watermarks are found in the manuscripts that they own. They have whenever they publish catalogs. So I believe that that's possibly might be due to Russell's influence. So that's it. Thank you very much indeed for that Peter. And again, thank you so much for the help in, you know, the republishing of the papers. It's very much appreciated that we were able to get all of that together. Are there any other questions from the floor? Or any other comments that people want to write in with. We still have 15 minutes so we'll be most grateful for any memories, any more information on work that people are Stuart Robson, please. Stuart. Yes, hello, can you hear me there. We can yes. That's wonderful. I represent the group of students who were taught by Russell at the University of Sydney in the early 60s, going back a long way. And particularly grateful to him and to his introduction to classical Malay studies there. And he actually introduced me to Malay Hikayat called Hikayat under Ganpanurat, which was just a unique manuscript from the Layden collection. And I managed to use that to form a little Malay thesis for Sydney. And that really saved my career at that point. After that I shifted to Javanese studies but I remember very gratefully how Russell assisted at that time. I'm particularly happy to see that this volume has been compiled. Thank you for all your hard work there. Thank you so much for that. Any other questions, comments, memories, everything will be. We have here. Mohammed, Mohammed, I did. Mohammed. Hi, can you hear me. Yes, we can hear you. Well, thank you very much, Ben and Dr Faroq for presentation for the event. I'm from Malaysia. I have never been to source or and I don't know. Russell personally but I'm really privileged to have, I've seen this event from Malaysia. My question is about the watermarks. And, and, you know, I think Dr Faroq mentioned if I'm correct me that they can tell us something about the trade, the use of trade in the trade patterns in the area. I'm wondering if Dr Faroq could elaborate on that point about what he can tell us about social and economic history. So, in particular, what you can tell us about the history of religion in the region because some, you know, chronic manuscripts would have their own watermarks. I'm wondering if that can actually give us a clue to something of the social history underlying. Well, in particular Islamic manuscripts, which is manuscripts more generally. Thank you. Do I have to lower my hand. I think I'll, right. Thank you. Thank you very much for coming today and thank you for the question that's interesting question about trade so so the main paper based on the watermark the main types of paper we have basically British paper Dutch paper. In the Philippines and the Spanish paper as well. So, so they, you can argue that they you know these, these types of paper came into Southeast Asia began to be used through colonial channels, but on the other hand, as I mentioned, Italian paper on the other hand was outside that so. And the question which Russell was asking you know how the Italian paper became to be used in Southeast Asia and so what what trade networks facilitated the importation of Italian paper into the region. And he found that he thinks that maybe as I mentioned probably came from the Middle East and probably replace a trade of Islamic paper into the region. And also he also found he also thought that Italian paper also seemed to be more used in religious works, especially, he found it being used in our amongst religious work so it seems like there's sort of a sort of a different stream of trade involved with Italian paper compared to British and Dutch paper. And in fact, British and Dutch paper, it's one, it's one question asked him before. So, you know, it's British paper only use in Malaysia and Dutch paper only use in Indonesia and he said no, it, these pay this types of paper, you know, move also move across so they're not limited by colonial territory so again there must be traded in some way. And there's also another type of paper which also discusses. We should also discuss in the special issue on the Smith and mania papers from Croatia and that seems to be, I think, imported via Singapore if I'm not mistaken so so you know the trade of paper can show how the economic history of the region. And this is. There's also actually also Asian paper, which is hasn't been researched as much can also show how, you know, interread into Asian networks into Asia trade networks, how people move and much give an indication of how other things move across the region as well. So that's a very short answer to to your question is very complex. So, yeah, you might want to read Russell's writings which she discusses some of these issues in the special issue. Thanks. I can see we have Kamaria has her hand raised and after that, and Zahara one, and then after that, there's also a comment or a question from Alex Tau in the box but maybe we can have Kamaria first. Hello, yeah. Dr Ben, can you hear me. We can hear you. Yeah, so I want to come Dr Farouk. Yeah, I'm Kamaria from Malaysia. Just now I, there was in the presentation that Dr Farouk mentioned about the database of watermarks, which is part of the dream of Dr Russell's. What it means on that part, is it available, or is there any plans by the UK counterpart to build or develop the watermarks, so that it can be accessed for any manuscript lovers, especially in Malaysia. Thank you. Salam. Like I say, thank you for the question. Yeah, but the watermark database I think Dr Russell was still trying to get that going so I don't think ever actually materialize in the end I don't think it actually happened in the end he was trying to find a way to, you know how to, how to create the watermark database and where to upload it as well so I don't think he ever got very far with it. But I know that he wanted to do the database based on his own collection of watermarks. So unfortunately at this moment in time I don't think, I don't think it's been done so I don't think it's been done yet so. Thank you Farooq. Before we go to Zahara, there's a question here from Ross Moati Ahmad Zakaria. Thank you for that question. My question. Do you have any idea on how this paper arrived in the Malay world. Was it in big roles, or was it already cut. So do you know about the, the actual physical process of how the paper was brought over and how it was worked with. That one I'm not sure I think might be in roles in reams of paper. I'm not quite clear about that. I think Russell might have discussed it in one of his articles I can't quite remember but other people might have better idea about this. I mean more paper historians might know more or economic historians might know more about this. If you know the answer to that one either type it in a box or put your hand up, I will now come to Zahara Zahara one Zahara. Hi, hello everyone, my voice. Just to say that my husband and I have this beautiful memories of a weekend spent with Russell and Maya at their home in Cornwall, and the weekend was just not enough. There was somebody where he showed us some of his papers and some watermarks, but I was more interested in his letters from Malaya, letters that he sent his parents from Malaya, where he was based. So they're very beautiful letters beautifully kept in biscuit tins. So I'm very interested to read and study these letters, and he had actually sent some copies to me. And I was asked to see and like I said, a weekend is just not enough. And but I did video I will visit mostly in his study. That's great. Thank you very much for that memory Zahara. I'm now going to go to Peter power again. Maybe you're going to tell us something about paper again. It's in answer to the previous quite the question about how did the paper arrived there, until the advent of machine made paper. All paper was made in single as single sheets, and they would have been packed in reams of about 480 to 500 sheets in a ring. And basically, you bought a ring, or you shipped several reams or 10 reams or 100 or whatever. By the beginning of the 19th century, in Britain, you're getting machine made paper which was actually made in roles. And it was probably still exported as sheets, because the stationers would have trimmed it and cut it to the sizes that most people wanted. I hope that answers your question. It's really useful. Thank you so much. It just shows how great it is to always have a paper historian to talk. Thank you very much indeed for that. Thank you. Any comments for on the question comment from Alex to about many watermark information and now documented as part of the many digitalization projects by libraries dream seed, and also conservation works is a way to accumulate this watermark information. So I think, I mean, all this documentation of this digitization projects, how to come to accumulate these watermark information I think that's something I think Russell was quite keen to do, you know, accumulate as many watermarks as possible into a sort of a database. I'm not sure how well how to go about doing this and I think you'll need lots of cooperation with various libraries and institutions in order to, to generate such such form of information and gather them into a sort of a database as well so it's almost like it's a project out there for someone with the energy and the will to political knowledge of the various institutions to almost make it happen. Yeah. And any more questions from from anyone. I can see that. Peter, is that your hand raised again. Yes. Regarding watermarks databases. It's been calculated that just in Western Europe, there are probably about six and a half million different watermarks over from the 121270 onwards. Probably 300,000 of those have actually been published in printed watermark catalogs. There's probably about half a million in various institutional collection databases, which are any basically accessible to people who work in those places. The catalog every watermark and how a comprehensive database is is almost complete madness. I'm not sure people have got long enough lives. Well, I think that's therefore a good tip, Peter. Well, like, if a moment ago I was saying it was a good project, I guess the idea that it's complete madness then there are some caveats involved in this. I think Russell did say that in terms of Southeast Asia, I think there's only a very limited number of watermarks which actually you so so might be smaller scale than than that. Well, we've reached our time now it's about 12 o'clock so we've reached our allocated hour. I don't see any more hands raised so I'm at this point, just going to say thank you very much indeed to everyone who's who's come to the talk today it's been really great to have you all here to see names from around the world I guess it's one of the advantages of the learnings from COVID and so on that we can have such a panel of such an international scale. So thank you everyone for coming. Thank you very much indeed for putting this together for the special issue and also the talk today. If anyone has been unable to access the special issue for whatever reason, maybe send Farooq or myself an email or a message or maybe try to make sure that you can access it. And other than that, I just say thank you to everyone involved thank you to IMW the editorial board thank you to Center Southeast Asian Studies for hosting this event. Thank you to all the publishers and friends and colleagues who assisted in making sure that we could get the permissions for this paper for the special issue. So everyone have a good evening have a good night have a good morning have a good afternoon wherever you are, and see you next time. Thank you bye. Thank you very much indeed.