 Hello, everyone. This is Ross, the most influential blog on education in the UK here at Teacher Toolkit today. I'm on a three-way podcast, very exciting as the first for me, and I'm delighted to be joined by Sean Quinn, head of psychology at King's Eli Senior School in Cambridge at England, and also Dan Giesen from LessonUp, who is the founder and CEO of a fantastic EdTech product. So we're going to see how we get on with bouncing questions both are away, but let me just bring them both in first one at a time, just to introduce themselves to our listeners. And I've got a couple of questions for you, Chaps. So, you know, who are you? What do you do? And give us one interesting fact, non-educational about you and your life. Okay, so let's start with Sean. Hi, I'm Sean Quinn. I've been head of psychology at King's Eli for 10 years now. Prior to that, I was a prep school head in Barkshire at Baywood College, and prior to that I taught for seven years in America in a school for kids that have been pretty much thrown out of mainstream education. Okay. Interesting fact, I was once sent to Hawaii to stop a group of coaches complaining about the conditions out there. Right, well, the Americans teach and things quite interesting, but so is that. So I might come back to that story later. Right. Thank you, Sean. Dan, how are you? Good. Good, Roslyn, yourself? I'm very well. Yeah, I'm excited to catch up with you. And I know we're doing a bit of work later today and see how lesson up is reaching teachers all around the world. Before I kind of spoil your party, tell us who you are, what lesson up is and something interesting about yourself. Yeah, very cool. Well, I'll start with the super interesting fact about myself. I originally come from a more retail business. And actually at a certain moment in time, I developed and designed and produced my own shoes. Oh, what punishments? Well, the neat gentlemen shoes, I would say. All right. Well, I'm a size 12 and a half, a size 12, if I could get put in an order. OK, let's get out of here today, everybody. We're going to unpick the principles of Rosenstein. So one or two people will be very familiar with that. Maybe it's new to you also. But it's a piece of research from 1982 by a chap called Barrett Rosenstein, who recently passed away and published a great piece of research, which was drawn upon his 40 years of working in the education field. And I'm going to particularly pick on Sean in terms of his insights and how he's used the principles in his work. So I guess I'll start with you, Sean, with a quick, quick fire question. I suppose, when did you first discover Rosenstein yourself? And how did it make you think as a teacher? So it's been a school initiative for us for probably just the last two years. And prior to that, I wasn't really aware. And like all teachers, perhaps another initiative, another bit of research, another new idea. And on the surface, it initially seemed quite straightforward. But I think when you dig beneath the surface and start actually accounting for the principles more concisely in your lessons, there's a lot of merit to be gained from sticking with it and building your lessons around the principles. And so my next question was on the kind of off the fence, skeptical or optimistic. So you mentioned that the usual with teaching were very busy time for people and there's another initiative. So how long did it take you to kind of veer away from initial skepticism towards this is really refreshing? And how is that, I guess, Rosenstein dialogue playing out across the staff with other colleagues? I guess, you know, a lot of it's a little bit like my position, really, that, you know, some people, as always, really buy into it and some people won't buy into it at all. And then there's that gap in the middle, that space in the middle. I guess for me, it was kind of, you know, we broke it down into the principles. So each few weeks, we would introduce a new principle. And kind of when you see the headline, it's like, well, of course, I do that. And then the next time, of course, I do that. But actually, when you start to really unpick your lessons, how often are you doing that and how much in the lesson is that happening? And then then I think you really start to see that, yes, you do do all of those things on occasion, but can you honestly kind of put your hand up and say, you do all of those things most of the time? And, you know, I wasn't and now increasingly I'm trying to do that. What are your colleagues kind of reporting in terms of how they've kind of absorbed the research? I would say similar to me, as in all schools, that there are people that are that are really buying into it and really trying to change with an open mind. And then there are people probably still a little bit stuck in that place that I was. Of course, I do this. There's nothing wrong with my teaching. It all works. And I think no matter what you try and introduce, that always seems to be the position for me. Yeah, and I guess in your role, you know, head of psychology and being immersed with that kind of cognitive science, I guess this piece of academic research kind of confirms or validates what you do as a teacher, which is, you know, the kind of art of teaching in some respects. Yeah, absolutely. And you do see, you know, it's a simple use of psychological research that's accessible, you know, to all teachers. It's not overly complex. It's broken down and it's presented in a very usable tool like manner. So I think, you know, exploring it is a very valuable exercise. So we'll come back to the principles in a moment, but I'm going to bring Dan in here. Dan, now in the ed tech sector and, you know, outside the UK, I guess a couple of initial questions. Do you have familiar eye? Are you with Rose and Shine? And how of if you are aware of Rose and Shine, how of those principles are they in to lesson up? And maybe just tell us quickly what lesson up is. Yeah, so to begin a bit with lesson up, I think pre-COVID 2015 by Kars and Janneker, Kars from a tech developer perspective and Janneker more from the educational perspective. And they literally created, together with two other teachers, they created a lesson up over the years, of course, because their first product, their MVP, was literally not working that well. So in 2017, they really decided to go more into the back of the classroom to really see what they could add value to. And lesson up was actually the end result of that. So I think in 2019, we really had a good product that could serve as a lot of teachers, specifically here in the Netherlands, where we're based. And since our platform was immediately available also in English, we got sign up ranging from South America until Japan, literally. Of course, COVID really enhanced our product and our services and our platform. But initially we were used or designed to be a product really to use in the classroom. And that's what there still are. I think Rosenschein was immediately, since we had two teachers aboard, Rosenschein was immediately part of the whole process of the platform to make sure that all of the 17 principles, but at least we could connect certain types of questions or certain features of our platform really to the Rosenschein principles. Great. So that's good to know. So we'll unpick that and how that works, I guess, mechanically, if that's an appropriate term to use in terms of the software. Sean, I'll come back to you. Now, I'm going to assume that people listen to this podcast and maybe watching this video version are familiar with the Rosenschein. And if you're not people listening, we'll include the links. But I'm going to show you most people are who are connected with Teacher Toolkit. But Dan, sorry, Sean, on my travels, I visit a lot of schools and probably a good half to three quarters are familiar with the work of Rosenschein. But very few teachers can they understand the value of the 17 principles, but very few can recall what they all are. So I guess my question is, how have you broken them down into a kind of memorable teaching loop? Are there any key themes that you can return to that make it a bit more of a memorable sequence? I know that's a tough question, but let me see what your thoughts are. So we're basically operating on the amended 10 10 principles. And I don't really have a have a trick or an acronym or a way of grouping those together. And I don't really kind of feel that I should or have to. I just have grids available to me and all the time. And then when I use the product, the lesson of products, I just cross check that I'm meeting those requirements. And if they're not there, I'm building them in. So I don't think there's the need to kind of memorize them. I think there's engagement elements, there is pre-planning elements. There's scaffolding and modeling elements. And beyond that, I think that it would be not good use of time just to kind of be recalling them. Sure. Oh, so let me just go. I'm just going to refer to the 10 principles. And these are from the 2010 paper from Rosenstein. So number one is the daily review. So the kind of do now or the retrieval from last lesson. Stage two is to present the new material using small steps for people listening. Stage three is ask questions. Then we move on to provide models. Stage five, guide student practice. Number six, check for understanding. Seven and eight is obtain a high success rate. So if you're posing a question and checking for understanding, make sure you have lots of students responding rather than one. Then stage eight is offering the scaffolded resources for your differentiation. And then stage nine and 10 is the independent practice, the guided practice with a weekly and a monthly review as you move through the material. So Dan, I'm going to come to you now. So Sean talks about how he uses lesson up where appropriate to embed some of the Rosenstein principles. If I choose one kind of maybe stage where a teacher could ask a large number of questions and get a higher response rate. How does that work? I said mechanically early. How does that work practically in lesson up for teachers to pose lots of questions to the students in the class through your software? I think the best thing is with lesson up which you can do, you create a lesson and in lesson you can add different types of slides. So to begin with the first one, the short review, what we advise a lot of teachers to do, for instance, is to start with a mind map. So you can recall immediately on to activate the prior knowledge of for instance of last time and actually last week or this week I applied it in Belfast myself. I was teaching a master class on lesson up for 50 teachers and the first things that I was trying to apply was indeed that mind map to get that first prior knowledge immediately active and starting up the interactivity. And due to the fact is that we have quite some different types of questions that you can add throughout the lesson. Of course, that is really the way how a teacher throughout the lesson can really test out if students understand what kind of information or knowledge the teacher provides. OK, fantastic. So I know lesson up fairly well for people that don't know the power lesson, I guess, is Daniel, I'd like to remind me how many teachers are using your site, but I know there's over one million lessons available, isn't there? There are. Yes. And how many users? So that's quite a phenomenal number, isn't it? You know, that's a huge bank of resources a teacher can access straight away. How many? Yeah, there are indeed. Currently, I think we have over 35,000 teachers that use us actively on a monthly basis. So they really come back like every day or every week. And those are primarily based in the Netherlands, Belgium and in the UK. But of course, we have, as I explained earlier, we have teachers from all over the world slowly starting to know lesson up. Also small companies who are really trying to focus on teachers individually and really helping them further. So far, I think over 100,000 teachers have signed up. Yeah, and as I said, over 35,000 actively using us on a on a daily, weekly basis. And Sean, how long have you been using lesson up for? It's hard to say exactly. I would I would guess around 2019 around that time. Right. It's the fourth pandemic. OK, great. Yeah. And just on that, I think it kind of future proof me for the pandemic. Because yeah, sure. It was a great thing to I was ahead of the curve, I felt. Yeah, you were in terms of online learning. It was I guess soon as the pandemic hit with lockdown, you just flipped over straight over. Yeah. And it was really nice to be able to say to my students, look, his business is normal, guys. You know, we're just going to be meeting online. But our lessons aren't going to be necessarily, you know, we do other things. But primarily, you know, lesson up is a big, big part of what we do. It's going to stay a big part. And I think my students found a lot of reassurance and comfort in that. So I'm going to go back to Rosenstein, Sean. I guess this is the money question for me is how has the Rosenstein principles changed the way you teach? Um, so I guess it's intertwined with lesson up again, really, because I think what what I found I was previously doing is I was creating resources, I was presenting, I was over-presenting students were being allowed by me to be a little bit too passive. And then when it came to assessment, we would be learning for the assessment. And I think using Rosenstein and lesson up together, has made the focus more on the here and now and learning in the lesson, reinforcing in the lesson and building knowledge rather than, you know, here's a presentation, we're not going to think about it for a month. And then somehow there's going to be a task. And I think I'd got quite lazy in my approach, you know, as, as a lot of teachers perhaps do, and not, not through being lazy, but just not maybe thinking about outcomes enough. So I think, you know, breaking things down, assessing knowledge, and really increasing massively the contribution of each person in the class. That's probably been the significant change, you know, that kind of checking the understanding of everybody. Yeah, it's a great point that checking the understanding. So for anyone that's listening, it's read the original paper by Rosenstein. So it was actually produced on a typewriter in 1990. The, the, the coincidences, the, the phrase check for understanding features 17 times. I don't know if that's a coincidence that it ended up becoming 17 principles, but I'll find it, um, Interest of that's the most used phrase throughout the whole original research paper. Um, the next key question then, Sean, is how has it changed the learning of the kids in your classroom, the principles? I think it's that idea that, um, I think it's that idea that, um, we, we learn in the moment that the, I, I got used to students kind of, if you sprung a surprise test, I didn't know we needed to know this or I didn't know we needed to learn this. And I think it's made them really focused that the learning is every minute of that, that lesson through, uh, the daily practice, the reminders from the lesson, the small steps, the practice, the checking, the understanding. I think all of that is made the lessons like very active, very focused and with clear outcomes. I know where everyone is and the student themselves know. Yeah, that's my next question actually, because you mentioned earlier, you know, not lazy per se, but, you know, being a bit more rigorous with the outcomes, how do you now know what's that kind of concrete evidence you have that the Rosenstein, the lesson type stuff is making a difference to teaching learning. And here's the data to back it up. Um, so I build all my questions, um, whether they're multiple choice, slightly longer questions, my maps, I build them all in. So all the questioning that's going to happen is there. And then you can access those results, not only in the lesson, but any point afterwards. So I had a lesson today, we did a task, there was 60% accuracy. That's straight in my favorites. That becomes a starter question tomorrow or the next lesson. Because that's not hit that 80% sort of accuracy rate. So, um, and my students know, all right, we can, we can park that one now for a while. We've hit the 80, 100%. And if we stay below it, you're going to keep seeing that question. And where does that 80 come from? Is that just what you're happier with? Or does it something that comes from lesson up or? I think that comes from the Rosenstein. He talks about 80%. I use that as a, you know, it's a fluid sort of thing. But once, once I think most people have, have got something move on, move on. But even today, at one point, it was 100%. We happen, I happened to have that one again later on and it had dropped because, you know, memory ebbs and flows it in a lesson. So we need to revisit that next time. And then once we've got mastery, we move on. So there you go folks and people listening. And, you know, it's really reassuring to hear how you can kind of recite, I suppose, how, what a difference has made to your teaching and learning. And you mentioned that outcome. So Dan, I'll come to you now. Sean, teacher in the classroom, lots of kids around him, busy, busy classroom environment needs data fast, rapid to use in the moment and to plan the next lesson. I guess in this audio context for a podcast, how can you describe the kind of screen data that a teacher would see behind lesson up? What, what would I be seeing, what data would be in front of me? How could I use it in the busy nature of a classroom to work out what to do next? A really interesting question, Ross. I think what we have since a teacher creates a lesson, teaches that lesson in the classroom or has the ability to share this homework. And the moment actually immediately that students join or in the life lesson or are busy with creating their homework or finishing their homework, those results are immediately put into, into the lesson up platform and are visible for the teacher. And basically what the teacher can see are three different areas. One is on a student level. So how did the student go through the lesson? Which questions were right or wrong, accuracy, but also timings. So how long did a student, for instance, check out a specific slide and also know that if there, for instance, was an interactive video there that lasted for three minutes and the slide was skipped into like two seconds, then immediately, of course, know that the slide. Yeah, yeah, literally. So that is basically on the student level. You can also see it more on the lesson level. So slide, you can see, hey, how did my students process this? And what was the accuracy level that Sean was talking about? I'm going to pop back to the store now and check. So Sean, in the classroom, when you're on your lesson up, that's the software. What are you seeing on your teacher dashboard in the moment? And kind of, you know, kids are asking you to do all sorts of things. Tell us, give us an insight into what you can see and what you can do in that moment. So I think it works perfectly for me in that moment. So if it's a multiple choice, they all enter it. You come up with the scores, you know, 10 people got 100%, nine people, whatever, and that that's recorded. If you want a slightly longer answer, I'll post some thought provoking answers. Sometimes they'll type their answers in. They all appear as almost like cue cards on my screen. And I can keep her records, take screenshots of those. I compare people up to contribute together. You've got a record of their answer, whether it's something you want to look at or whether it's just right or wrong or a drag and drop exercise. You've got a record of all of that in real time that you can kind of say, right, I need to talk about this right now, because we've only got 20% right. I must have not been clear. Or like I said, you could say, right, it's not quite 80. I'm going to add that. Or you might pick out a more extended answer that was really good and say, right, I'm going to talk about this answer because it's exactly the sort of thing that we need to do. Or we can compare answers if the children are a bit more brave. You know, here's an answer that's kind of right. Here's one that's slightly more refined. So you're getting access almost to their answers, but also their thought processes, those kind of metacognitions. You'll see what's going on in the moment. And it tells you and enables you to react in the moment, not a week later when you've marked... You're just going back to that point, you know, where you marked books. It's two weeks later. The data online gives you that hard, concrete, scientific evidence, which you can use immediately. Dan, I'll pop back to you then. What's next for lesson up? So you've mentioned where you are, the number of users. Give us a sense of what the plans are for lesson up and how a teacher listens to this podcast or a school leader. You might want to introduce it into their school. How could they get involved? But tell us about the hopes first. Plans. Well, hopes and plans first. And I think what we have currently is a very good basis. You know, teachers can create lessons. They have all types of questions. They have the reporting. They can share homework. They can conduct tests. And they have a huge library of already content ready to use. I think currently or the upcoming steps for us are very important is that we can suit or serve teachers better on their topic. So for instance, Sean is more into the psychology part. How can we serve Sean with content? Interesting content that has been created by other teachers or professional content creators that we also have on our platform. How can we serve Sean with better content? So he can also be inspired again with everything that is created on the lesson up platform. I think that is one thing. The other thing is for us is really important to see is that teachers really like to try out lesson up, you know, as a first step. But we also see that this is basically, this is kind of a different approach, especially if somebody is normally used to teach with a regular book or with just a simple quiz somewhere in between his or her lesson. This is really a different approach. And as I was telling earlier, this week we were in Belfast with a team to give master classes also to other teachers over there. And I was comparing it there with going from an earlier Nokia to a brand new one. It's a different way of like using your phone at the opportunities it has and you have to explore that. And it isn't like a change from day or day overnight. And I think what we need to do in the upcoming time is really support teachers in that change. COVID of course has learned us a lot regarding teaching and regarding the importance of teachers in the whole spectrum. We're never going to say digitalization is going to take over. No, but it can really enhance teaching, support teaching and really get the kids back engaged into the classroom. And that's what we try to do. So the aim for us is also really on creating the lesson of academy to make sure that we can really support the teachers in the first few months of using the lesson up to go that next step. Sure. So the next step in that engagement, Dan, you mentioned, Sean, if I pop back to you, I've got a bit of a multi-prong question here. What advice would you give to teachers that are familiar with Rosenstein who might be working in a primary or in an FE setting, something different to your current role or someone who's a tutor or something like that? I guess that, you know, how could I use lesson up in those types of skills? Or if I work in those types of skills, how could I also use Rosenstein? So there's a kind of a six-pronged attack there, different types of settings using the software and using Rosenstein. What would be your advice? So I think that the software lends itself to any setting, really, I think, because what I found that's really helped for me that I think is very transferable is getting away from that kind of hands up. So somebody answers, so you get that one answer. So across an hour lesson, you might hear each kid speak or contribute once or twice. And what lesson up gives everyone a voice. You know, so you have a class of 30, you pose a question, you get 30 answers right away. So 10 questions and last you've had 300 answers. So I don't think it matters on the setting or the age because what we do is kind of the same in that regard and it doesn't need to be a private school with small classes. It's giving every child the opportunity to answer and for you to see where that child's at. And it just lends itself so perfectly to that and the way you can build lessons yourself or there's so many available now and that would just increase, you can just then adapt. You know, a lot of them have the content and then you can put your little flavor with the sort of questions. They're very quick and easy to create. So, you know, all of a sudden, you've got a version of taking lollipop sticks out of a glass that just works so much better and so much more. More efficient, isn't it? More efficient because you get time. You know, you're just, it goes, it does go back to that checking your understanding. You're checking the understanding of everyone in pretty much every moment of that lesson. So people are engaged in their focus because you're not reining people in because you've not really lost them by over-presenting in the first place. It's such a good point. And what about the Rosenstein? People are not familiar with it. And if I was in a primary setting or an FE, is it a transferable set of principles in your opinion? Yeah, I would think so. And I think like all initiatives, it can be a bit overwhelming. You know, how am I gonna do all this on top of what else? And I think it's just to see it as a journey. As I have, I haven't tried to kind of write all tenor in every lesson every time. I've tried to build in daily review without fail. I've tried to, you know, ask more questions, think of the quality of the questions. But I've still, you know, in my targets I've got here, provide more models. That's for this next bit in the summer holiday and to build more scaffolds in, that's the next step. So you pick the two or the three that you think, right, that's my goal for this term. Every class is just gonna have this daily review. And that kind of daily review seems such a simple thing. And I think we kind of take it for granted that, you know, I've taught it, the kids know it, but you have to teach something three, four, five times, you know, because we forget that everything's new to them. It's not new to us. So why aren't they getting it, you know? So that, you know, just pick two or three simple ones, get used to that, and then build. Some good advice. So on the word build, I suppose, down back to you. And kind of similar question to what I posed just to Sean, you know, have you got primary teachers using your site? I know you've got people at Belfast Met College using it. So we've got an FE kind of context. I shouldn't assume, because that's what Rosenthal doesn't recommend. So I'll check. Are secondary teachers using it too? Give us a kind of broad demographics of people that aren't using lesson app. If you've got loads of primary teachers using it, then if I'm a primary, then I should sign up too. Yeah, but basically, I think Sean mentioned it before as well. It doesn't really matter what type of teacher you are, but really what you can do with it. And as how Sean approaches the Rosenthal as well, you can easily also apply lesson app in that sense. So what you can do as a starter, you can easily have like your PowerPoint uploaded, add some first interactive questions in there, and boom, you go. In terms of demographics indeed, what we see a lot is that primary teachers start with lesson app, but mainly from a thing age nine or 10, because if you want to really have the interactivity with a device by a pupil or a student, yeah, you literally should have that age. We see a lot happening in secondary education and further education. And have you got a sense of state, school, independent sector, or is it kind of a big mix? That's a big mix. It doesn't really matter actually. Okay. Yeah, so there you go folks, lesson app and Rosenshine. So the links will be included in the podcast and the video for you to check out a little bit more. Now I mentioned that was your last question, Chaps, but as we get past half an hour in my podcast, we move over to a little quick fire quiz, a bit of retrieval practice. And I'm gonna pose lots of quick fire questions to you know, I don't want you to pause or hesitate. I'm gonna see if I can catch you out, but I'll start off with some easy ones. So let's just start easy. So Sean, what's on your desk today? What's on your to-do list? My to-do list, walk the dog. Okay. It's been a long week. Good. Dan, how about you? What's on the to-do list? I think spending some time with my son this evening because I have been away traveling a lot. So I think that's the most important one. Have dinner with the family this evening. As far as, David, we can hear in the UK. So good message for myself. Good reminder for myself. And yeah, we're off for an open wall to swim tomorrow. So I'm looking forward to that. Okay, next question. Sean, what book are you reading? I'm reading a book about what happened to Freud's patience. All right, fantastic. Ever the Psychologist. Dan, how about you? Yeah, it's a bit business-related. I'm reading Fast Scaling. How to scale your company fast but not go into hyperscaling, you know, that it becomes a disaster. But I'm listening to an audible book which I believe still counts as reading. It's called Connect by Simon Lancaster. And it's about, he writes public speeches for lots of big, important people. And he's just going through some of the kind of hallmarks to tell in stories, which I think is interesting from a psychological perspective. But also useful for a teacher because we tell stories all the time. And in my life, you know, talking publicly speaking to lots of big audiences. Okay, next question, Sean. Piece of advice for a teacher wanting to get into Rosenstein. Slow and steady wins the race. Okay, Dan. Oh, we've lost your sound there. I would say this is a marathon, not a sprint. Marathon, not a sprint. Okay, Sean, I'm going to assume you're doing your dream job. But if you weren't a teacher, what's that wacky career, you know, that you never had or never tried? What would it be? Coaching, soccer, and American university. Okay, fantastic, Dan. Teacher. Teacher, okay, Sean, back to you. If we went to Hawaii for 24 hours, what would we do? Surf. Okay, fantastic, all 24 hours. Dan, if we came over to the Hague or to Amsterdam, what would you do for 24 hours? Well, actually, you can surf here pretty good. I did it last week, so that's for sure. No, I would say we explored it downtown Amsterdam and the Hague for sure, but I would prefer the Hague because it has a bit more of a culture. Bit more culture. Sean, finish the sentence. If I was Education Secretary of State, I would. Change examinations. Dan, we can do the Dutch or the British or the English, I should say, Education Secretary. Do you choose? If I were the Dutch Ministry of Education, I would, that's a good one. Oh, I've got you, I've got you. Yeah, indeed. Okay, back to Sean, back to Sean. Biggest, what was your career achievement most proud of? Let's give it a shout out. Creating a prep school from scratch. Wow, fascinating. Dan, how about you? I would now say creating a company from scratch. That's really something. Right, I'm kind of creating something from scratch show off here. Sean, a couple more. Who would you recommend the interview next and why? Oh, gosh. In education, ideally. Williamson. Okay, let's see if we can get hold of him. He's done a runner at the moment, doesn't he? Dan, how about you? Yeah, I think that the person you were referring to, so the Secretary of Education or the Ministry of Education. Okay, and final questions. Sean, what's your favorite memory of a teacher that inspired you to teach? Yeah, I got in trouble for saying to set an interview once because it is a teacher that was maybe not the best practitioner, not the best technician, but was just a really nice guy that kind of helped me out at a really different time. I emphasize the importance of relationships in schools, doesn't it? Not necessarily be on top of your game in the classroom. Dan, how about you? That teacher, do you remember? Well, my history teacher for a secondary school, which really helped me to pass my exam. Hey, and that's important as well. So there you go, folks. Ross here at Teacher Toolkit, joined by a delightful Sean Quinn, Head of Psychology, and Dan Geeson, Founder of CEO of LessonUp. And I've got one last question for you to put you on the spot. Sean, what would you hope to be your legacy? People thought that I cared. And Dan? Legacy in terms of business, I would say helping as much teachers as possible to really get engaged kids, even if it is without LessonUp. Okay, so there you go, folks. Thanks for listening. I hope you've learned a few insights about Rosenshine, the wonderful tech software, LessonUp, and some interesting facts about Sean and Dan. Thanks for joining us. I'll be on the podcast soon. Bye for now.