 Welcome everybody to yet another episode of it's not just Nicolò. We have another person here today and you probably recognize him. That's Nick from the Linux experiment. And I think you also know the channel because I do have analytics on what other channels my subscribers watch. So not much introduction. You've published a video regarding what could you do better in regards to actually doing a bit of promo about the features that they have? Can you summarize it a bit for those who haven't watched it yet because everybody will watch it? Yeah, of course. So first, hi everybody. Nice to be here. And so you have not only Nicolò, but you have Nicola as well because well, I shortened my name to Nick, but my full name is Nicola. So you've got two of those, which is nice. So the video is titled, Katie is wasting its power. I know that the thumbnail is very clickbaity and people have been quick to notice that. But I didn't really know what else to do. So what it's talking about, it basically how Katie is this powerhouse of a desktop. You can do whatever you want on it. You can customize it, of course. Well, you probably all know most of the features. The issue is that certain features that are super exclusive to Katie are never really publicly talked about or explained when you start a new Katie session or when you install Katie for the first time. You don't know that they exist. I took three of those randomly because those are things that I think people should really know. There's the activities feature. There's the Kaywin scripting feature. And there's Katie Connect. So out of the three, Katie Connect is probably the more widely known of all of them. But it was also a good example because it's never really showcased in any way. So the goal of the video was to say, you know what Katie can do all these amazing things. But what good is it if no one knows that they exist? That that was basically the point. Yeah, regarding the thumbnail, there was the official Katie account that on Twitter replied with a snarky comment. I actually went to the promo chat saying, maybe this was a bit too snarky, but there was like, nah, it's just for fun. Yeah, it's okay. I mean, I played with that. I could not expect people to be like, oh, that's great. For reference, it is Katie on a trash can. No, so the first reaction that I saw inside of Katie actually was the promo people. And I think, rightfully, a lot of the promo people were like, but we actually talk about this all the time, like activities, Katie Connect and all this stuff from the Katie official accounts. We keep talking about them. And we even did an initiative a bit of time ago that was regarding doing one video, I think, every week that talked about a feature that is not widely known in Katie. And we have this playlist with at least 10, 15 videos, I think, with a lot of nice things that people don't know about Katie Plasma. And that was an initiative. However, if I understood correctly, this is still like on YouTube and on PeerTube, obviously. It's not integrating in the Plasma desktop itself. So what you're proposing for is more like things inside of Plasma desktop itself. Yeah, because of course you can talk about those features on Twitter, MasterDom, PeerTube, YouTube, whatever platform you choose. But the fact is a lot of people that are going to be using Katie are not going to be aware of these channels. They are not going to follow them and they are not going to know about them. And if you don't promote these channels either inside of Katie, it means that basically the product that you're shipping has no real explanation about these features unless you as a user is willing, unless you are willing to go and find this information outside. And that's a big debate on Linux in general. It's should users be expected to go read a manual and get their own information or should you basically spoon feed them the information and let them know about these things right where they use the product, the desktop. In my opinion, I think external sources are great, but if they are not linked inside of the desktop itself, they might as well not exist because a lot of people will never know that they exist. So either you need to promote these channels inside of the desktop saying, hey, if you want to know more about our features, if you want to know more about what we do, about our updates, here are our accounts, you can follow them, you can watch our stuff, it's cool. Or you need to integrate maybe these small videos explaining these features right in the desktop. Optionally, of course, you don't want to bombard users with notifications and tutorial pop-ups and tours every time you click on something. It's not Windows. You don't want to smother users with accompanying them. But you can integrate these in a simple way, maybe just on certain settings panels, having a small button that displays a video that helps people understand what this does and how this works could be a good idea. Yeah, I guess we have this kind of option. We used to have a button in the title board that was, how do you call it again, you know, in English. A question mark? Question mark, thank you, English. And if you press that and then hover any element, it would give you an explanation. But that was mostly for, you know, actually understanding how the UI works and this kind of stuff. So it's a bit different. Going into more details about what you said, you talked about activities a lot, which I fully understand. And I think that the biggest issue with activities is not rather that we don't talk about it a lot even inside of the Plasma desktop, but rather we ourselves as KD, I don't think we have a clear idea of what activities should be and how we want to shape them. There has been a lot of discussion about this even in the light of the Plasma 6 that's coming up in not too much time. And there's always some people that say we should remove activities entirely and try to integrate those features inside of virtual desktops themselves. And other people will say, no, let's make activities more powerful and give them even more features. And the kind of issue that we have with IEV personally with promoting a lot of activities is that since not a lot of people use them, not even a lot of developers, and they are quite buggy to me at least. As an example, if Kevin crushes for a new reason, all of the windows will be thrown in the same activity. You will lose all of the stuff that you had set up. So it is, I understand that, but there's a step back that we have to do regarding, let's make sure that we understand at least what activities are even supposed to be. Yeah, I focused a lot on activities because it's a feature that I really love and used on KD for a while back when I still had a day job and the YouTube channel. I had an activity for the day job and an activity for the channel and it was great because I could just switch from one to the other, have all my windows laid out as I wanted them. I could have all my widgets on the desktop exactly how I wanted them and I could just switch back and forth. My computer has 32 gigs of RAM so I never closed anything and I left all the apps open all the time. And so the next day when I had to go back to the day job, I just pressed the key combination. All my stuff was there. It was already laid out perfectly. It's in my opinion one of the best features. So I can absolutely understand the fact that it's not clearly laid out how you want to move them forward or if you want to move them forward and maybe they are not stable enough to be promoted. I personally didn't experience any crashes or anything but that doesn't mean that no one else has. So that's why I focused on it because I think it's a great value added to the KDE desktop. I would be very sad if they were removed in Plasma 6 honestly because yeah, I think it's a great feature and honestly just writing and recording this video made me want to switch to KDE on my desktop. It's those kind of things and this kind of power is just something that I've been missing without knowing it. How did you discover about activities? I think it was completely on accident. I was messing around in the settings trying to see what else I could change because that's one of the pleasures of KDE. You're like, I like my setup but I would like to find other tweaks to find. I don't know why but I want to find them and so I looked at activities and I was like, what exactly is this? I had heard about it back when KDE Plasma 4 I think was released. I think it was introduced in Plasma 4 and I never really used it. I found the settings panel. I was like, I think I can find a use for this and once I realized I could have a work and a personal workspace I just started using it all the time. So there is some thought actually in making sure that the user notices about the features even though we don't like push them in the front of their face to make a specific example. If you currently right-click into the desktop of KDE Plasma you will have a bunch of options and between them there is show activities switcher and since we suppose that people do right-click in the desktop that is one way to making sure that the user at least knows that there is this option even if they skim through searching for something else and this at the same time has its issues as an example one time we wanted to clean up that menu a bit people rightfully say it's too crowded and one of the proposals was to remove the activities switcher option if you're not using activities that is if you're only using one and that idea was shut down because that would make activities even less discoverable so there is this balance that we try to keep. And there are two things about these features I think and I'm just talking about like from my point of view because I worked for 11, 12 years in product management and UX and trying to help users understand stuff and building new features onto websites and apps so I have a bit of personal knowledge on that thing and to me there are two ways to approach features first you need to make sure that users know that they exist but you also have to make sure that users understand what they do and so having that option in the context menu is great because well people are like what are activities and they're gonna click on it and they're gonna see a switcher but then they don't know what it does they don't really understand how they could apply it to their own workflow or setup and the same goes for the settings panel when you arrive you see a list there's only one activity you can create one but you don't know what they do exactly so you're probably not going to interact a lot with a setting you don't know or understand because you might be afraid that you're gonna break something you might be afraid that you're gonna mess up your setup if you do something wrong and if you don't know what the feature does you're not really enticed to try and interact with it so if a person goes today queue in mailing list there was a proposal by me a bit of time ago that I sent there with mockups and everything actually with the idea of making a new widget that would be by default on the Kitty Plasma panel that would show you what is the current activity and give you the option to create new ones with a button to actually explain to you what activities are and a button to say I'm not interested in to remove that entirely so that was a bit my idea and I think this idea tackles what you're saying absolutely it makes the feature discoverable and it explains what it does and users if they don't like it can just remove the widget or say I don't want that and they're done and of course I understand there were also people commenting on the video saying I don't want my desktop to tell me hey this is this and this is that and there's this new thing they don't want to be bombarded with notifications and optional stuff that they have to remove at each install and I understand it it's absolutely normal and there's got to be a middle ground between like onboarding new users and explaining everything and returning users who don't want to like press next 20 times to say I know all of this so I don't know how this can be handled apart from at install saying I'm a new user or I'm a returning user and adapting the layout or adapting the information level but yeah it's it's also an issue when you start adding plasma panels or widgets or notifications everywhere because people who know plasma are going to be like I don't want that you're making me lose 30 minutes every time I reinstalled plasma to remove my stuff yeah that is something we should be careful I'm also a bit worried about in this in this context like looking like windows windows there's a lot of self-advertisement inside of windows and it's usually like not very well received when they add pop-ups to their own browser yeah you don't want to look like you're advertising you don't want to look like you're putting ads for other KDE apps or services in the middle of things because people don't like that and generally people who use Linux left windows because of that kind of stuff so yeah you don't want to do that yeah one thing you mentioned in the video that Heather was funny you mentioned the fact that you can change your right click on the desktop to an application launcher which is a nice feature and I think it is one of the most dangerous features we have actually because I've seen a lot of users do that and then realize that cannot change the settings of the background anymore because you do that with right click and there's a way to undo that but it's not easy to discover it yeah you'd have to edit a panel and go into the settings that are appearing on the little bar up top I think yep that's correct and I think that's not already discoverable especially if you maybe don't have panels in that case I think you have to press and hold the background image that should also do it yeah maybe in the application launcher on the right click menu adding a configure desktop option wouldn't be terrible yeah yeah that has happened to me so I totally understand that and there's another thing I wanted to highlight regarding Kiraner you talk about the fact that we don't highlight Kiraner much it's just hidden in a shortcut and I actually fully agree it actually took me a bit of time after starting using Kindle Plasma to discover about Kiraner my however it's probably the only place where I would say it's not too much of an issue because all the features that Kiraner has the launcher the application launcher also has it's the same exact search and it's much more discoverable obviously you just open the application launcher so I would say there's not that much of a reason to highlight Kiraner when you have the same features on the application launcher yeah that's true okay yeah and actually a comment on the video points that out I said why would I want to press two keys to do the same thing that I can do when just pressing one key and it's like yeah I have nothing to answer to that you're right there is one feature of Kiraner which I think is very nice which is say that Plasma shall crashes because you're a developer and you're messing with it Kiraner is still alive so you can restore Plasma shall using it but it's not the kind of features that you want to use that hopefully and regarding the solutions that you proposed one that I kind of expected to be there but wasn't maybe it wasn't directly in the topic of the video was improving the system settings not like adding more to it but even just improving the layout and how options are you know designed there like and organized yeah I floated an idea a while ago on another video I think which was basically splitting the settings into two modes that would be a normal user mode with the very basic setting pages that you might need to just interact with your desktop and an advanced user mode which lists all the additional things that you could do like for example K-Win scripts and activities and stuff like that but I think the issue with that would be that a lot of users that don't feel super comfortable yet would never enter advanced user mode because they would be scared that it means they would break something or disable stuff that they would need in the future and I think the layout for Katie settings is actually not bad right now like with the new updates to Katie frameworks you have those new labels that are displayed in bold and that serves as a group for other settings I think it's way more legible than it used to be so of course there are still tons of plasma panels and settings and you have sub menus and a very complex hierarchy but I don't think they're illegible right now they can be like what's the word they can be not terrifying but a bit scary because there's a lot but I don't think they're hard to navigate or understand right now they're well grouped that's a good news to us for sure and actually organized system settings is something that we have worked on a lot obviously because it's a bit of the heart of Katie Plasma I think and there's still work going on there is a task on the GitLab that talks about how we could improve and there's a pretty long discussion with various proposals and there's a lot of issues like regarding system settings that hopefully should be fixed by like Plasma 6 as an example right now system settings mixes together some sections made in QML and some sections made in QD widgets which is something very technical the users should not notice about that but of course from a technological point of view that's a bit of a challenge to address but with more and more sections switching to QML it should be easy to reorganize them and there is a task to do that so it is something that we're still working on and that will hopefully improve with QD Plasma 6 and regarding basic and advanced mode there is actually a page on the QD Wiki which is called Lessons Learned which talks about all the recurring discussions that we have in QD Plasma just to make sure that we kind of stop having them at a certain point because there is some risk of repeating ourselves too much and the first element is actually about basic and advanced modes and what it says the first lines are like the design pattern is not always wrong but it must be used sparingly and it talks about all the issues that could arise from using this so it is something that we don't like too much it's not something we are aiming for as a general thing and it's explained nicely in that page Yeah, I understand completely I think it would be a stop-gap solution it would be like we're not going to work on this thing anymore we're just going to lump everything in advance and that's going to give us license to say if you don't understand the settings just go into user mode and I think it would be a cop-out basically you would say, you know what? Yes, there are tons of settings but they're hidden now so there's no problem but that doesn't fix the problem really just moves it or hides it Yeah, that's a risk then as a proposed solution you also took about the welcome app that Ketoplasma is introducing these days you're very up to date and actually when you mentioned it I was like after watching the previous part of the video but it's not going to solve the issue which is also something that you also say now we are introducing I use we but I have nothing to do with that some Kete developers more skilled than me are introducing a page regarding Plasma itself that talks about widgets and how you can customize widgets, move them around we are currently stuck on the fact that we don't have some artwork to show for that so there is work going on in that direction but that's kind of it like another thing that I think still is in the lessons learned page is when the user uses the first install wizard they don't know about Ketoplasma yet they don't know probably what they want so asking for layout as an example is probably way too soon for a user that is starting to use Ketoplasma right now they might just not know the answer yet and same goes for maybe just light dark modes can still work but anything more advanced we really like not to ask that users yet yeah because that's what I said in the video like you're going to have a welcome app but the things that are pointed in the welcome app are general things that you could do on basically every desktop it's like here's discover that's where you install your apps here's how you can contribute or donate to the project here is your dark or light mode stuff like that but it's not meant to point out specific features like hey you never use Ketoplasma do you want to use I don't know activities you don't even know what a virtual desktop is yet that it might be too soon yeah for this kind of stuff it might be too soon just one thing about the layout chooser though I do want to point out that there was work going on by a developer to implement system setting section for the layout personally it's a feature that I've always like asked for which I think would be really nice but in Ketoplasma the question is not do we want this but rather is there somebody with the skills that has also time to implement this and the patch kinda went still I guess because the original proposer didn't have enough time to actually work on it so there is that limitation but it is something that it's always been a thing that I wanted as well because there are a lot of GNOME distributions that do this and GNOME is not meant to do this like it's done through extensions it's not done through the native capabilities of the desktop and people love that on these distributions like the layout switcher in ZorinOS for example is one of the features that everybody raves about when they talk about ZorinOS it's like in one click you can have a system that is a an approximation of what you already know and use or you can have something that is completely different if you want to have fun and the fact that Plasma can do that natively and probably with more stability than GNOME can do it is I think a very good argument to push that and as I said in the video it also showcases that you can do this kind of stuff in a specific way it's not like hey if you right click here and if you move your panel here you could have a top bar and if you add the global menu applet you can have a top bar like macOS instead of explaining all the steps you show people that in one click you can have a macOS layout and then they're like okay so I can do this myself and they can start running around with it and playing around with it we do have global themes they're not just about the layout of course but also about the look but they do include layout you can have a specific layout in a global theme so if you do want a certain look you can just apply it select layout as well and you will have that so in some sort we do have that feature we don't have the layout specifically unless you only select layout when switching the global theme yeah and the issue with that is that you have to know about global themes but that's quite easy I think to discover because you're already getting offered like the twilight look the dark look the lights theme so you know where this is and you can notice that get more stuff button so it works but the issue is that those global themes are generally not complete for example if you want to apply a macOS theme there's one I think I don't remember the name but I showed it in the video but if you apply it you do get the top panel with a global menu but you don't get additional applets you don't get for example the name of the application in the top bar you don't get a doc at all so if you apply the theme you basically lose access to certain features you don't have a task switcher for example or launcher and that's a bit limiting and I think having official KDE layouts official Plasma layouts might be a better way to introduce that instead of letting people use layouts made by users that can be a bit broken or associated with a theme that might not look right on certain applications we did have a proposal I think from Nate Graham to add some default layouts that record other desktops and reprinting systems like Windows Macintosh and such with names that were obviously not those of the... I'm going to call that Cupertino and Redmond Yeah, it is a merge request that was not accepted well and luckily mostly because I think that was we want to have something that works for us and we don't want to be seen as copying other people we are particularly afraid of this kind of stuff because we are always told KDE Plasma is copying Windows 11 even though it's not true at all The layout is not even the same it doesn't look like it and KDE has looked like that since before Windows 11 even existed so I don't know where that is coming from that's why Yeah, and luckily people will see a traditional desktop and say, yeah, Windows Yeah, that's basically it and I can understand that I mean, you want to offer your own experience and you don't want to have like callbacks to other things but I think it would be nice to find a way maybe it's not predefined layouts but it would be nice to find a way to show users that they can easily replicate stuff that they know or create some new things but maybe that doesn't go through predefined layouts So I think like the main proposal of the video is like a new thing that works a bit like a game tutorial and shows you the stuff around with like skip buttons and such and that would be a new application let's say that would work as an overlay to other and I'm not against the idea at all obviously I think it's a nice idea I am worried about the amount of work that it would require where it kind of is Yeah, it's always the problem with that thing that's something I always pushed in my various day jobs to have on our applications or websites because I worked on some stuff that was pretty dense there were a lot of things and no one was ever against it but also it was never prioritized even I as the product owner never managed to get that prioritized because my boss would always say we were going to do this thing first and the tutorials later everything was ready but no one ever works on it because it's very time consuming it can be very hard to adapt to the different screen sizes and layouts when you have floating things point you got things it's not going to be able to adapt to various distros which might have changed the layout as well so you would have to wait for specific distributions to make their own implementation of it which means that you might have to develop something that is modular which is even more complicated so it's always a very very tricky thing and I guess no one really wants to work on that instead of working on a new core feature that's totally understandable I do want to defend developers slightly about this because even though it's true that working on a new feature is cool and such almost like the majority of KD developers especially KD core developers are not adding new features a lot and I understand that from the outside it seems like KD Plasma is the desktop of the features and there's always new features coming up but most of the focus is regarding backpixing obviously and a lot of times there are nice features that are added by people that are very new to KD Plasma and that don't have yet the skills to do like significant maintaining work so it still makes sense it's not like KD developers are only focusing on features of course that's not at all what I wanted to imply and it's just that in general finding someone who has the time to build a fully modular tutorial system with pointers and the ability for distros to adapt to it it's going to be a huge amount of work and unless you're really certain that this is a fantastic feature for users Okay so I was talking about one thing we could do to improve system settings I think that maybe wouldn't require too much resources even from developers and that is adding some explanation about the features in system settings themselves some pages like you open the page for activities and you do get a text on the top that talks about what activities are and how to use them is with that I think yes I think so because the main issue is is not discoverability because well you have that link in the in the main right click menu and people who start browsing the settings can find activities but the issue would be you arrive on that settings page and you don't know what it does and so having just a little bit of text or a link to a video explaining the features or an embed of the video would probably help a lot because it gives users a use case you're saying okay this is activities this is a suggestion of what you could use it for and then you let the user figure out if that's something they want if they can use that use case specifically or if they have their own use case for the future but I think that would be great yeah it's something that could be that could be like improved upon also when you talked about in the video about like every feature that you had should have like a plan to how the user learns about them I had that reaction of like yes like in theory this is totally a great idea but when you actually do the stuff in practice you know we have to meet reality we usually don't have a lot of time to do like plans and stuff for the features we just try our best and see what we can come up with even when I talk about testing stuff a lot of people just assume that we do a lot of testing and like automatic testing and such and okay yes we can do that for stuff like the frameworks but when it's UI testing the UI you need some need to have some screenshot mechanism that's kind of very tough actually to implement it's really hard yeah even when I worked on websites and web applications even that was extremely annoying because you have stuff like like I think it's headless Chrome which lets you render a web page but never displayed anywhere and then you have to implement timers and coordinates like you have to click on a specific CSS class and wait X seconds for in case the connection is long or not and so your tests are extremely long if there's a little problem in the timer everything fails and you have to restart it again and that's for web I think for a full on compiled desktop binary I don't even know how you would make that work honestly yeah there is some effort in that sense with OpenQA by OpenSUSE I think and they do a little bit of texting of like the busy KD Plasma features opening Dolphin create a new folder this kind of things but doing that extensively for all applications testing the UI it's something that I mean ideally yes you would like that obviously but do you have time to actually implement that that's that's the problem because if you if you start doing that you're going to spend like a year implementing something like that and then people are going to be like oh there's nothing new or KD is dying yeah it's a very important point like some people some people just say you know KD should stop I think new features and just focus on bug fixing but I understand that it's completely impossible to do I have talked about this a lot like you can't do that and one of the reasons that you would get people saying oh KD is dying there's nothing new yeah and I don't think that people who want to work on new features would immediately be converted into bug fixing developers it's not the same work it's not the same interests it's not like it's a company paying thousands of developers and forcing them to do what they want it's volunteer work you can't tell a volunteer hey you are going to work on bug fixing and you're going to forget about the features the guy is going to be like well I'm going to work on something else then yeah now they're still going to implement new features we just wouldn't land them and that would be even worse and that would be wasted work yeah and that's even worse because by the time you want to actually merge these new features that they're completely out of date with everything else and you have to rework them entirely it doesn't work yes exactly so it's not something that we can actually so there's always this sad thing of reality is out yeah and so when I was talking about that having a plan for each feature it's not each feature it's each major feature like for example floating panels would have been nice to have a little help or indication of something instead of having to right-click on the panel to discover that you could do that of course if you follow the new developments of Katie and I'm talking about floating panels because I know you've worked on it but if you don't follow the regular Katie channels or media or if you don't watch the release videos or the videos that people like me make you don't know that this happened you don't know that this exists but for some other features like we reorganize the system settings you don't have to communicate about that or if it's I don't know a smaller option like you can now toggle the tablet mode automatically or choose when you want to toggle it I don't think you have to have a complete plan to talk about that but for major stuff I think it's interesting to have that in mind maybe maybe you don't have the time that's absolutely okay and you can't do everything but maybe have that somewhere so when someone has the time or someone wants to work on it they could have that idea that has been globally accepted when talking about the feature that this is how we would like to communicate about it and it's hard I know it's it's it's extra work and I'm not saying it should be done by every one and for every feature but I think it would be nice to have for the big features at least some kind of even just two words in a wiki that someone could refer to if they actually want to work on that at some point or if they have time to work on that it would be cool yeah in general even for like the smaller features we always have this idea of trying not to add small off by default non-discoverable options we are tempted to do that sometimes because maybe you do want options but if it's off by default and it's not discoverable then not many people will use it and it will end up being maintenance burden and last thing that actually picked from the comments those were very interesting as well I gotta say it talked about video tutorials tutorials like somebody proposed having video tutorials about KD Plasma and that is something that sparked my interest particularly especially because you know I do videos for KD Plasma some of those videos are kind of tutorial but I don't do a lot of tutorials that is a lot of work first of all and what I would like to see ideally is KD paying somebody to do that kind of work even if it's just making videos improving the documentation tutorials that kind of stuff that is something that that I would like to see but of course KD is mostly getting started on hiring people to do this kind of work we do have a developer position we do have a person that will work on documentation sorry yeah and this kind of thing so that in theory should improve but doing video tutorials is a lot of work and I think and you have to redo them all the time because every time there's a certain change in what you're showing even if it doesn't concern directly what you're talking about you have to redo the tutorial or at least modify it to implement the new thing and so it's ongoing work and the more tutorials you have the more work you have to make so when I read this comment I immediately added to my video ideas list something that I probably work in January it's a master KDE series basically something that either in one video or in a series of video something that just explains basically everything about the desktop like how you handle panels how you can switch widgets how you use widgets how you use activities how you can configure your window manager everything every basically every panel every settings panel would have a part in one or more videos to try and group that because I think it's something that could interest people and I think it's a good reference it's not just hey I made a video saying KDE should do this and then and my work is done here it's like putting money where my mouth is or yes that's the expression and saying okay well I talked about this and I have the capability to do it so why not do it it would be not an official KDE tutorial it would probably focus on stuff that I find interesting but I think it would still be interesting to have I would suggest waiting for KDE Plasma 6 oh yeah that's not a bad idea things might change yeah absolutely I was wondering do you use like KDE Plasma and your daily machines nowadays? I always have a laptop that runs KDE Plasma yes my main desktop still runs GNOME but I'm slowly realizing that on laptops I prefer GNOME for the gestures and on desktops I prefer KDE because KDE does now have gestures on Wayland but I don't find them as smooth and as easy to use as the ones on GNOME but on the desktop where I don't have a touchpad I don't care about gestures I care about efficiency and I think KDE is more efficient for me on the desktop so my desktop is going to move to KDE is going to move back to KDE at some point in the close future but I do always have a laptop with KDE Neon because I always want to try new stuff and see how KDE handles things to have comparisons to other desktops so I always have a machine running KDE That makes sense and gestures in GNOME are really good and I did try them for a while and I actually did not switch back to KDE Plasma until KDE Plasma implemented gestures as well because that became a deal breaker after using GNOME gestures even though yes I agree they're not as good Do you have any I'm just curious at this point any other feedback about KDE Plasma as a whole opinions that you currently have? Honestly, I think I covered it with the video and with our talk it's a desktop I absolutely love I've used it ever since KDE 3.5 back in the days at the time I was I started with Ubuntu but I quickly just used KDE all the time when KDE Plasma 4 released I started compiling it every day I compiled the dailies on my one core Pentium something it was absolutely atrocious and I used it for a long long time and only recently have I moved back to it and now I'm switching back and forth between GNOME and KDE because sometimes I want to use one sometimes I want to use the other and I need to be able to use all of them to be as objective as can be about these desktops when I talk about them in my videos but I think KDE Plasma is in a fantastic place right now all the work that has been done for the past I think two years on stability, on bug fixing, on improving stuff that wasn't very legible discover has really matured and become really something great and yeah I mean I don't really know what I would change or what I would specifically focus on even that discoverability of features for me it's not interesting to me personally because I know the features and I know where to find them and I know I can look online for them so even that wouldn't be a priority if I'm just talking for myself personally I don't really know what I would change honestly on KDE right now it feels feature-complete it feels stable it feels great to use and yeah I just really enjoy it I'm so happy to hear somebody say it feels stable about KDE Plasma that doesn't happen very often to me I mean it has its issues back in the day but I think a lot of people are stuck in an image they have like three or four years ago from the transition to KDE Plasma 4 or from 4 to 5 which yes there were problems but nowadays I mean I don't have a very complicated setup I don't have a hybrid graphics laptop plugged into two external monitors with some weird peripherals I have a big ultra-wide and a desktop so it's basically the easiest use case maybe I don't use fractional scaling I don't need it on that panel so yeah I'm also a very low bar to please but my experience with KDE has been great on my on my laptop as well is it Wayland? on the laptop it's Wayland yeah I use Wayland because I want those gestures yeah I do agree that there's a lot of people that have like an old opinion about KDE Plasma or rather about an old KDE Plasma and that is I think why KDE Plasma 6 is so important to get tried I think a lot of people will try KDE Plasma 6 after not having used it for a while to see how it changed and we have to get it right I think and as much as I'm having a lot of fun that is like everything all the topics that I want to bring up if you have anything to say I don't think I can add anything else yeah I think we've discussed everything that was super fun to super fun I hope that we'll be able to do this in the future again and I hope that we'll meet at the academy next academy you'll be there right? I would love to yes absolutely I hope so nice so thanks for being here and having me go check out his channel you totally need that from me right? go look at my crap it's somewhere on YouTube and on PeerTube and on Odyssey as well so thanks everybody for following