 Hello, hi everybody. Welcome to the Brooklyn Museum or welcome back. It's so lovely to see you Good evening. My name is Alicia Boone, and I am the adult programs manager at the Brooklyn Museum I'm truly honored to welcome you to this timely urgent and important discussion this evening Tonight's talk celebrates not only the work of Zanelli Mahole, but her true commitment to activism and social justice Zanelli Mahole meshes her work in photography, video, and insulation with human rights activism to create visibility for the black lesbian and transgender communities in South Africa Zanelli Mahole is a banello evidence, which is located on the fourth floor, has just opened yesterday and today is our soft opening for the exhibition So we invite you to go up to the exhibition directly following the talk It is the presentation of the most comprehensive museum presentation of today of her work, including several of her ongoing projects about the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex communities, both in her home country and abroad This exhibition was curated by Catherine Morris, Sackler Family Curator for the Elizabeth A. Sackler Center for Feminist Art, and Eugenie Sy John and Barbara Vogelsen Curator of Contemporary Art Mahole urges all black queer and trans persons to document, re-visualize, and rewrite their own his or her stories for prosperity, but most of all to be included and counted in national histories and historical archives in order to educate current and future generations of their existence and resistance So tonight's discussion brings together South African artist Zanelli Mahole, Brooklyn based poet Stacey Enchin, and visual artist and activist Tatiana Fazelizade to discuss LGBTQI issues and struggles across borders in class Directly after the discussion we will invite you to participate in a question and answer session and solution dialogue So without further ado I'm happy to introduce Stacey Enchin, Tatiana Fazelizade, and Zanelli Mahole Because we wanted to make sure to get the conversation started I'm going to allow each artist to introduce themselves to you and provide you with a little bit of their background and bios And like I said please prepare your questions because we have a microphone here for you to engage in dialogue with them and we thank you so much for coming and supporting this exhibition at the Brooklyn Museum Thank you Alicia, and thank all of you for bearing here tonight So like Alicia said I think it would be great if we could just start by talking a little bit about ourselves, introducing ourselves, talk a little bit about your work too if you don't mind My name is Stacey En, I'm a poet, I don't know I mess around with words in all the forms that they appear Whatever needs to be said I try to figure out the language and say it in that language I'm a rabble rouser of sorts, dissenter, mother of a three year old I left Jamaica when I was 24 years old because I came out as a lesbian and was sexually assaulted by a bunch of boys And I thought to myself I'd like to go somewhere where freedom rings and brave, the home of the brave, free, blah blah blah And I came to America expecting all of that and then realized I was black And so you know I've been, I don't know, I guess complaining about that and yearning for palm trees since Okay, I think I have to take off my jacket so I'll be king My name is Annele Mholey, I'm a visual activist My dream when I was young was to sit next to Stacey Enchin She said she messed up with words, she has messed up with a lot of spaces in South Africa and now I'm here Talking to Dawid Diva, to be serious I take photographs because I just want to make sense And thanks to Shal Tasmid who introduced me to this space In 2007 I came to New York for the first time, I think, and I was greeted by this person Please raise, rise And the Orderlord Project Lesbian History Archives And she took me through a lot of documents that I never thought that they existed And I must say you truly inspired me with your intelligence and also how you took care of me that day Thank you so much, I'm so happy to see you again in eight years, or after eight years I was born in Umlazi, Durban, which is a township in Durban And Durban is one of the cities, like how you have New York here Durban is one of the famous cities in South Africa, it's situated in Wazulu Natang And Wazulu Natang is a province, one of the nine provinces just to give you some context I'm born by Ezulu mother and by Malawian father And if I was born in Malawi I would not have came out So luckily I was born in Natang And it is the only province with the president and the king and me I just thought to myself when I was young it was important for us to see ourselves in the pictures And I ever questioned the position and the privilege of men who had cameras And who managed to take photographs of our birthdays, those who were lucky enough to have birthdays And also weddings of our sisters and brothers were getting married back then And as I came out, I came out to myself because there is a personal come out and the public coming out And I just related my story, I thought maybe I share the story with Tessie and maybe for the second time today Anyway, then I came out when I was sixteen, then I had to come out roughly again when I was twenty-two to my mother Which means that if we graduate in these coming out sessions I'll be having a lot of degrees So I'm born in Taban, I have a brother, three sisters and me So my mother was okay about my sexuality, unfortunately she's no longer there To hear about my being in New York at Brooklyn Museum, which is such a privilege to be here Because not everybody and anybody gets to be here, I mean seriously But anyways, yeah, I'll share some more Now we are here at the Brooklyn Museum because of the art, but I think both of you, myself included We use our art as a tool for activism So I really want to talk about how art is important when it comes to activism How art reaches people in different ways than other mediums do Especially in the LGBTQ community, how is art important to you in your art that you're making Or activism important to you in the art that you're making? To me, art especially photographs and weights which together they need to connect all the time It's beyond the weight important, it's needed, it's so much needed Especially at this particular period in South Africa in America at the height of racism That is persisting and ongoing, I just came here, a black man was killed And I thought to myself, if only every second person of color and a black person Take their own images of their families, not only when a brother is killed Not only when a mother is killed, not only when a lesbian is brutally murdered Not only when a young woman is raped, we need to document our history It's not a matter of even negotiating the space or whatsoever, it needs to happen right now The materials at schools where we go to, from higher primary schools to kindergarten The crutches where our kids go to, they need to consume our history They need to be fed our realities, do not be brainwashed simply because people think that Oh, we'll negotiate how to fit you in in history books later History, our voices, ourselves, our beings, yeah So how I connect my reality to the mainstream realities, I should Because right now I'm capable to do so, and there are many people who came before me Who had voices but did not have equipment to do so So for me it's not even like, how are we doing it, when are we doing it We're just doing it We do it, we do it, it's force, we have to do it by force Because when we go on, my grandchild won't be able to read about my existence And your existence and everybody's existence If somebody do not take a stand and do it I came to art, not as a student of art I read literature as a child and loved it and studied literature And thought I would become a professor of some sort where I would comment on literature And have political conversations in a classroom And I think when I graduated college, where do you see yourself in ten years And I said I think I'm going to be a professor teaching English literature somewhere And I might write a poem or two on the side And then when I landed in the US with what felt to me no voice Because I had used all my resources to flee what I thought was a kind of brutal place Where I thought I was going to come to this place with at least less brutality And I happened upon racism here And I found the same spaces, the same struggles with regard to sexism and classism And certainly some xenophobia as an immigrant and definitely as a person of color And I thought to myself, fuck man, this is some fucking shit I have to survive, I have to find somewhere to put this anger, this deep What seemed to me out of left field anger because I really came here to be free This is what America sells, when you come you get free This is what they tell you, all the brochures say it So I mean you come here and I just was so angry and I missed Jamaica and it was so cold And I was like who the fuck builds houses where it feels like a freezer, you know And then I happened upon the poets on the lower east side So I think I came to poetry as a weapon, as a kind of battle cry A kind of angry place holder for my feelings, for places, for things I didn't know what to do with I don't think that I came at it with this like oh I'm going to be a poet, how does one become a poet I was in the neorecon like yapping and stomping my feet and having eggs late at night And deciding which poetry cafe we're going to go read the next crazy angry poem And then I started hanging out with Howard Zinn and I started reading June Jordan And they were like okay so you're very concerned about what you're going to do with your pussy You're very concerned about this being a lesbian and having sex thing But what about like other parts of you, you know, being black or being a person of color or being a woman And that's when I started thinking about like all the parts of me and how to put all the parts of me in a poem And how to make sure that who I was as an entirety existed in the work I created, in the work I read And how to look for it in places like your photographs You know I remember I was in Canada brooding over some woman who had left me If you believe my version of things And you know Canada is mad cold so I was like I was kind of forehead down on the floor of somebody's kitchen Like you know just kind of bitching about the fucking like whatever happened And somebody said you know like how you're talking about her body now makes me want to Like have you seen like this book by this like South African artist like Zinele Moholi or Moholi or whatever And they pulled out the book and I was you know the small one that you did And I was like my god man like shit is that blood You know and so I was flipping through these images that I was like it's kind of sexy Like I'm less heartbroken now And they immediately connected us via the phone conversation that evening I think And your work has been present with me ever since and like I pull it out you know like I told you I was somewhere in a very compromising situation with a person And I looked up from my position and your photograph was on the wall So there's a way that like the lesbian identity globally you know I was kind of taken on this like you know this evidence of like oh my goodness Like I'm a lesbian like I should have one of these images in my house because You know it makes me feel connected to other lesbians in other places There's a young kid who came from the same township you came from Who speaks of being who speaks of saying oh like coming out shouldn't be the acme of my lesbian career I could be like a professional because like Zinele Moholi is a professional So it's just astounding to be like these images do more than just you know Provide room for people to you know gawk and you know look at And I look up there at the I went to the I went up there just now And it was just amazing to stand against that wall and to see all this black swagger You know like sexy like variations of sexy just lining the wall I like that you know because sometimes you know when we're talking about like hard things And we're presented in this activist way we don't look sexy and we act sexy all the time Look at the room Yeah everybody I know is super fly and super fresh when it comes to the queer community Especially here in Brooklyn But you bring up a good point I think talking about looking at it globally right I think about the queer community especially people of color here in the U.S. And the struggles that happen when we talk about discrimination and lack of legal protections And violence there's real violence that comes across comes across the community And so here we have a Jamaican born lesbian a black South African lesbian What are the connections between the international queer community And how do we work in solidarity with each other South Africa is really Jamaica but with a bigger economy But yeah what are those connections and how do we like work in solidarity Recognizing the differences but also recognizing all of the similarity You're joking right? Okay the commonalities is our sexuality There's the connections with our race obviously And the discrimination that you guys face here Surely happens in other parts of the world as well But especially in South Africa I don't know Brooklyn that well I don't know Harlem that well I don't know this place I just came I always come here To work but I know that when somebody looks at you here Who see like right now you see all races you see You see the rainbow that we speak about at home Most people who are looking at our pictures at home they look at Magesh and Pasta Zungu They thought they were from New York and people from New York were from home Which are so funny but yeah I think what's common between us Especially as women the blood that we share you know bleeding That's what's common you know between us The fact that we're born by mothers and fathers who are not queer We feel the pain when some of us are being medded That we share the common you know pain you know Because it doesn't matter whether this ancient is here When she is in South Africa at a process of a lesbian who is medded or who was medded She feels the pain as a mother as a sister as a lesbian as a female body being You definitely feel the pain So there's so much that we share beyond just the sexuality that we take pride of When we speak of being in space or so And there are maybe differences on how you do things in terms of culture This ancient maybe it's because she's from Jamaica she swears a lot She still has an accent I want to say a lot of F-weights in front of my sisters Because maybe they might connect that with my sexuality So I'll have to turn down a little bit But the pain the loss discrimination that persists that our people you know Continue to face at the hands of homophobes becomes an issue And also the struggles of coming out maybe there and then And maybe for people who come from Caribbean countries Coming out is not as easy as people who come from maybe Ethiopia or maybe the people who are here born by people or parents From different African countries might find it difficult to be as out as we And I think what then come on between just as seated here is not Being scared to say who we are Whereas many people in same positions maybe most writers want rights Or even mention the P-weights and the F-weights in their writing Because they're scared to be censored And maybe most photographers who are in my positions who love women And sleep with women almost every day or every week Will even be scared to say who they are So our love for women becomes that common thing And also not being scared to say who we are And for the benefit of many who are really crying in the closet Dying to come out in every way And I'm talking about not only the arts Because what we're doing is beyond the arts There are so many beneficiaries in all of this that we are doing Because when people read Stacey and work They see themselves or they could smell themselves in their text And when they see some of the photographs that I produce They also could connect their realities to our own Regardless of where we situated And Zanele, it's also important to point out how infrequent images of LGBT people Of color occur in literature, in art We know that we've had them And they exist, many of them Everyone knows the guy on the church choir who's gay Everyone knows the woman who... She's 45 but she's still changing roommates every two or three years Everyone kind of knows this person But to be able to see them and to access them We live in this world where so many people, particularly white people I assume is only good white people in this audience But there are lots of white people who occur in literature When I first came to the US and I found a book about two lesbians from Montana Who were coming out to their family I read that text and decided I was going to go home and use this story as a text for coming out In my Jamaican context Which, God, if only there was a Zanele Moholi kind of text to follow If there was a Stacey Enchin who would kind of say Well, you can't really go home and tell people like Okay, so I eat pussies a lot in Jamaica in 1997 Do you know what I mean? You just chill for a second There are ways to do it I just feel like the more stories we have, the more we increase visibility The more we seem diverse to people except for the three or four gay people that maybe are on TV I feel it's really, really important to say how I think your work, I look at the wall Like, have you looked upstairs? This shit is astounding Like, it's epic When you look, there's a whole wall of people So can you imagine, I know so many queer people from the continent who are like I've met so many of you and been close to so many of you It's crazy, the more images you have, that wall When a young queer person of color, of African descent Or even from the continent passes by that wall You can literally see the back straighten You can literally see the pride kind of come rushing through And these people are not like, mid-violence Like being beaten up, like do you see them? The sexiness? The yes, I would like to go out on a date with you Look on them up there, it's like sexy And I think that that is so important Because so many of us who are immigrants And from countries deemed developing as opposed to developed You know, we always seem as if we were like We always need like somebody to come brush us up or help us You know, we're fighting, but we're like sexy warriors Just so free everybody in the room Questions Feel free to take photos Yeah, let's shoot each other It's fine, you don't need to hide your iPhones, iPhone 6 Plus It's fine, take photos This is history in making There's hashtags and everything I don't know what the hashtag is, but I think it's here somewhere So please feel free And I would like to instigate a more communal conversation I mean, you could kind of like go and Google us And you'll hear all of what we think But we'd like to be in conversation You've been casting a lot of people for so long Right Yeah, no, the watch is accessible So we'd like to open up, I'm sorry No, that's fine If anybody has questions I know that Stacey is going to have to run in a bit So feel free, we can jump in And make this a very casual and communal conversation Absolutely I like it now We have a mic here if you want to ask questions Shoot Yeah Like me, I tell people go ahead and steal the book For the copy Get it Yeah, hi, thank you so much I came with, you know, my family here And I did not know That we came to see Candace Wiley's exhibit And I'm so, so glad That as soon as I walked in I was like running to the restroom And I heard Stacey and Chin I got so geeked I was like, oh my god, let me hurry up and repeat Because I was like, oh my god This is fascinating What? I am the universe You know, it just, it works how it does And I am so grateful that you guys are here This is amazing As someone who has parents that are, you know Well family, my family is continental Africans But I was born and raised here And you know, I'm a cis hetero Say that again, continental Continental Yeah, I mean, you know You understand the difference with that context? Okay So my mother and father, right Are from Senegal, Guinea And I was born and raised here in Harlem And I've gone back home And I mean, I struggle at home With the conversations around this Because I am someone who's, you know Very open, but I also struggle for My family back home Because I do have, you know Members of my family who I know are very sheltered And very afraid, you know With the idea, especially where my family is from You know, mostly like 99, 98% Muslim countries The conversations are beginning to happen More so in Senegal than in Guinea But they're happening So I'm glad that that's happening But the persecution that our people Are facing back home It's so disheartening And it's like, it's hard to talk about But I'm trying to find ways You know, and then you guys as artists I mean, I would love some pointers On ways to begin dialogue You know, with those that are willing At least pointers if you have any I want to begin by sticking a pin In that like, you know People are suffering in this way back home There's no back home This killing of LGBT people This killing of brown bodies This killing of bodies of color Is fucking global There is no country on the planet In which brown bodies or LGBTQI bodies Are not being killed every day Let's just begin there I'm so sick and tired of this finger pointing Like, okay, the government is on top of this one And the government is behind this killing So, you know, and these laws Are not being supported here And Jamaica is this And South Africa is this Like, this shit is happening in Brooklyn This shit is happening in New York Everywhere in New York This shit is happening in the South Like, I want to like Just stop that conversation In some places it's probably more urgent In some places it's probably more brutal In some places it's more overt In some places it's more identifiable But even like this idea that, you know That all of a sudden like What's happening with these police men Killing all these black boys These black boys been dying For a long time From Emmett fucking Till Right? I mean, come on, man So this business of being an activist This business of taking on this conversation Even at the familiar level Even like in this kind of like I'm gonna like speak out about it at work Like, for me, like I don't encourage this kind of like Part-time activism Like, you gotta be in it You have to like I encourage people to take it on Some of us are gorillas And like do it mad quiet And tip-toe around the like water fountain And like have conversations with people In this kind of like way Whatever you do it I think it's necessary It needs to be done And we have to do it But we have to stop talking about it As if it's only like in one section Or it's in one family Or in one country Like this idea of killing bodies That are not straight white cleaver-like families Is a part of the white patriarchy Is a part of like how white men A long time ago decided that Only white men were valuable And everybody else who was not A white man of a certain ilk Was gonna have to go down Or was gonna have to be a laborer Or was gonna have to be owned Or in some way So I think if you begin by talking about it From that perspective Then it became Then you can see how it's a global conversation And how it is that okay Maybe some people are under more pressure And then they're killing more people Like whether it's an economic pressure Like how the hell you gonna like Run around and try to save Jamaicans Who are like gay But you couldn't give a shit about like Jamaican women who are 12 and 13 Who are being raped daily Like it's gotta be like a multi-issue conversation You cannot ask people to come out In protection and service And celebration of LGBTI people in Jamaica When we couldn't care less about poor people Or people who are dying Or women who are being raped And so I begin there By talking about my own body as a lesbian Which is kind of like a body that is Straight and black and poor And lives in a place like Trenchtown Or lives in a place like Canterbury in Jamaica Or lives in a place like Kalicha in South Africa Like it's we are the same person And it's the same eight white men in that corner If we could just line them up And put them in that corner Then we probably could get a handle On like patriarchy and how it is That it proliferates and you know Kind of like fools us into thinking That it's more than one thing Like this collective rape Is not about just being lesbian It's about being women and our bodies And the power that we have in them And ownership of them And how they think that we should be using them And how because it's shut down Or it's not accessible to you But I understand that you have to like start small But I think that if you start the conversation And start the conversation in a way That includes the causes that people are affected by Or they care about You know like I never ever start a conversation On the island of Jamaica with just being lesbian I start talking about rape That splits the room already And you start through like classism And poverty in there and then the room splits again And then all of a sudden Like it's a different conversation It's an entirely different conversation If it is that we are willing to hear each other's pain And it's like Zanelli said that you have Like pain is common You know the pain of being excluded as an LGBT person You know it can be alluded to the You know you can kind of line it up with the pain Of being excluded because you're black Or because you're woman or because you're poor I didn't have a question right here We also have a hashtag Queer trans activism so that's also another way To continue the dialogue Is to participate in the conversations That are happening globally Behind you So Stacy Enchin I had the pleasure of seeing you About six or eight years ago At Little Red Elizabeth Irwin And you changed my world And how I see it I was probably a sophomore in high school Or something like that And you really reframed My thinking about diversity About LGBTQ issues And I think education is something That we really got to start talking about These issues at a younger age My mother is an educator of elementary school kids I'm wondering also as a South African My father is Zulu Your father is Zulu? Yes Maybe he's my uncle Yes And seeing this xenophobia Against people like me My daughter I mean there are so many levels of education That we have to start discussing issues Of hate of our own people At a younger age How do you guys suggest We approach these in educational spaces And introduce it to youth Issues of race and LGBTQ Okay I'll come on It's nice to be young Because when we talk about being young We always think that the people who came before you Have all the knowledge that you possess There are so many people who are adults Who never had access to anything That you as youth need to consider When you talk about your youthful Beautiful selves Very very very important My mom had to suffer under apartheid Regime She had no schooling To work as a domestic worker Of which some of my work touches on that Serving the next person Being the distant other Yet at the same time She had her own kids to fend for She didn't have the opportunity That maybe your mom Maybe your mom had access to You are young have access to Stacy and Chin There are so many Stacy and Chin Who never had even an opportunity To be published So now what do we do I work with a lot of youth And that's my boy I travel with them Because I don't want to be the only person Who gets these opportunities to travel I train them to be The next Zanellem Holies when I cannot So there's a need For sharing skills And there's a major need To have intergenerational dialogues In every province In every city In any other space There is there to be Because the generation that came Before your mother They are intellectual You know Expert Sorry They are intellectuals that never had To share their expertise Because whatever that is not Academically reviewed Does not exist according to experts And yet those people are the ones Who shared oral histories for ages Before we So your grandmother Who is a Zulu That has her own clan name That history that is supposed to Research and dig To write a new history Is in your hands Just because maybe she's in a different Planet or different space Does not mean that she's not with them So I know it sounds like an old thing And it's because we have Tweeters With hashtag I think it's very important for The living ancestors to converse With those that The upcoming generations And take these oral histories And mix them with the text That is written by Stacy Enchi And mix them with the visual Will have a good family document That will speak to The next generations to come Because maybe you connected To Shagasulunos You need to dig down into your history And open up from your own school And tell them where you come from And also that lineage Becomes something massive But now is the time for us To speak because maybe there's Nothing like race Maybe the people that we get of They are family So much connected with them Because in other places where you go They say no, if a person Is not born in Europe She or he's not white white white If without blue eyes Maybe it means that you're not 100% white I've heard a lot of stories of shades of white And many shades of black So I don't know what anymore But there's a need for us To dig deep into these histories And start these intergenerational dialogues Every day Not only when your grandmother dies And you start tracing now No, do it now What you still have access to her What you still have access to your grandfather It's the simplest way to do And we also record with every little bit Of something that we have Keep that voice because that voice Is beyond richness Just to hear your 90-year-old Grandmother speaking to you In ways that you never thought that It's ever existed It means that you have the Treasurable grandmother ever I was looking upstairs at This guy Michelle Pascal And when I look at his face And my faces and faces We look so much the same Here's this guy who Didn't smile when he was Confronted by the lens And you wonder what was he thinking of At that particular time And that guy is somebody's uncle And that guy is Somebody's grandfather And yet we start with the image So start those conversations Encourage your friends to write Tweet and hashtag Your living ancestors And your late ancestors Because it's the right thing to do Zanela, I'm a South African as well So good to see you here Representing About five years ago My girlfriend's sister Was raped at the age of 12 And it's still One of the greatest tragedies of my life And it began a Sort of internal dialogue in myself What is my role as a man In a world where Women are sexually assaulted young girls And it's still something that It's my great quest, I suppose At this point to try to understand What it is my role should be I'd like to hear your thoughts Should be acting, responding What you'd like to see from us What you'd like us to be doing Because a lot of this debate happens Amongst women and you guys are up here But where are the male voices That are in support? I feel like, please give me that mic It's painful, it's really, really And deeply painful because every woman's Rape A lot of community members They either suffer In many ways because one Female Body being raped It means that the police need to take a stand The family need to take a stand Beyond just your family The nurses need to take a stand etc And if there's any lack of evidence From the nurses Or from the policemen It means that we lose the case Not your family but we lose the case Because it means that by losing that case Another woman gets raped The following day knowing that Somebody will get away with this The idea that I had was I started a project with men I want to shoot men Hundred men And then speak to those hundred men To find out if any one of them Never committed any sexual assault In their lives For the reason because I've been thinking If we keep on speaking to each other About this rape And it's angry It's only we who are angry And then there's a man who is roaming Around our streets freely And he got away with A young girl's life easily And that girl will be damaged For the longest period And we're not saying anything One of the most painful Okay let me respond to your question first We need to have conversations with men Because the rapist Might be my sister's Boyfriend The rapist is my friend's Brother The rapist is My uncle's son Do you understand he's my cousin These things are happening in our families We can't do away with it Whether one is White or black and so on We need to deal with them As an issue that needs to be Attended agentally So the conversations Between men For men to Not women to live freely In the street in any space Is long overdue I'm not talking about one million much When just the case of one rape Or a brutal case of hate crime takes place It needs to be an everyday thing And should also Be introduced in our schools As part of the syllabus Education Is very important And also to say There's a girl who got You know raped There are a lot of young boys Who are molested on a daily basis Also whose cases never make it to court And again the rapist roam around Our streets freely Conversation between men For men to make Our spaces safe Is long overdue Starting with our presidents To our politicians To our mothers Their sons at court Because also we as women Are a problem We want to defend the rapist's Sons at court. I've seen it Many cases that I've attended A young person was Stoned to death in Cape Town And the girlfriends Supported the rapist And those perpetrators The mother of the The madras said he didn't do that My son won't do that And even bail him out That when it becomes a problem Because it means that We're not getting anywhere As the community members As the nation, as a family There are a lot of cases that happen Within families That you don't know That you don't know That you don't know That you don't know That you don't know That you don't know Within families That incest That you end up with children That are born from that mess People are not speaking about that And a girl's child is destroyed From early, she has no future Because she had to become her uncle's wife This is a Problem that is long overdue Which is why Stacey and She and that we can't part time Activism We working as artists Unfortunately artists do not get funding To preach because we regarded As deviants or transgressors But artists have managed To articulate a lot of issues That are not dealt with by our own politicians But many people Who are in positions of power Who refuse to speak out Because they want to To save their positions So conversation in every Space and no young girl Need to be raped, no young boy Or any person Whether female or male Should be raped because of who they are This is long overdue We need to act Soon before it's too late I am My kid is three As I said and we've been talking about consent For three years One of the things That people ask me to do now I go into colleges to put out fires Around campus climate and rape And sexual assault and all of that As soon as some shit blows up And title nine is like flying left Right and center on the campus They send you an urgent email Could you please come here and run Two workshops and talk to the fat boys And oh my god quiet the Raging lesbians who are screaming In the corner And so I go into these Classrooms, I go into these Frat houses, I go into these And one of the things I find That is quite frightening is that When you're invited to high school To talk about consent To talk about rape culture Your hands are tied behind your back And your tongue is tied to your feet No one wants you to say anything To these kids about consent And then all of a sudden they arrive At college and everyone wants them to already Know what the fuck they're supposed to know already So I don't really understand this notion So I believe in talking about consent And consent you don't I mean I don't talk to Zuri about like Oh no one should touch your vagina In that kind of overt scary way But I say to her this is your knee And no one should be touching it Unless you say so Not even me Even if it requires like long dressing Sessions because when she's getting Dressed and she's like it's my body You can't touch my body I'm like fuck man Trying to get through the door But like if I'm gonna support that I'm gonna have to be late And when I arrive I'm like listen We had a consent issue and so I'm a little late But you know I have to dash out Because I need to be somewhere else Shortly But I wanna leave you with a poem And I think that We're gonna have more conversation After with Is it gonna happen with her? Or we don't know This poem talks about like The vagina in this kind of wonderful way Women have always been the center of things Beautiful for me Becoming woman has always been the center Of my girlhood The sum of my thighs, my ankles Even my shoulders were always girl And when I bled for the first time I told my best friend Wrapped my secret in her air Assured her that this blood meant That we could Like babies But being a girl in Jamaica in 1980 Also meant I had to run faster Than my cousin's fingers Farther than his sweaty palms Reaching for my hands My tiny breasts had to be brave Against his fury when I refused And one night I stabbed him Pencil points sliding swift into his flesh The whole house cried out And I was so proud of my yellow pencil Point sharp and without fear My aunt beat me anyways For making your cousin bleed, she said And I cried more out of loneliness Than anything The other cousin's name Still remains quiet upon my tongue I speak of him When I'm angry Or sad Or afraid of things That do not make noises in the dark Stark raving mad, he showed me His dick told me, you smell like a woman In that little girl's body Hips barely budding, he cornered me Away in the bathroom And when I bled, I washed quick and quiet Years later The motherfucker still smiles at me Even now no apologies are necessary I was only a girl, quick and quiet Girls learn to wash the details away Bury them under briefs and jeans And cargo pants Under these panties, rest the story Of these chochas, these twats, these bushes That bleed on time Once a month I'm reminded That my pussy can do something I can I dare you to make people without a vagina Shiver or man or beast Even Jesus had to pass through a punani Angels and messages aside Mary had to lend passage to God Or them Christians might still be Jews Waiting for a Christ that was stuck Up the ass of some man who thought he could do What little girls do every day Against their wishes They are forced to do what They do not want to do Every day against our wishes We carry these common stories of sons And fathers and cousins who violate The sanctity of our bodies and our breasts Our ability to make breath From passion or the Neat decision of a fucking intent One day And you know It wasn't so long ago My body bloomed a little miracle called Zuri Siali Semania Chin The mouths around me open Wide and wander and terror Every day men are forced To ponder the magic of what vaginas do Every day Every day women carry people into being And every day even on the most Petrifying day I stand Grateful I was born bloody snatch In just the right place today I'm so fucking glad I was born a girl Especially since yesterday my mother told me Go ahead and write a story No matter that I will write her in On flattering truths right She told me and I hope the book sells You can afford to raise your daughter with a heart And everything was better between us Everything was better between us It didn't matter that she left me twice Didn't matter then Jamaica in 1972 She chose her safety over mine Yesterday my mother told me Write daughter and the world Writed itself I wish every mother whose daughter Survived the burial of these unspoken Things would give her permission to Say what happened to write down How she endured the terror of Being that small girl in a world Who deeply felt this large brutal men I wish every cunt had the Courage to be her public witness I wish everyone had A pen, a camera A clear view and the Support she needs to scream What happened to me was not my fault What happened to me Was not my fault What happened to me Was not my fault Thank you so much Thank you to Stacey Anchin Alright Stacey Alright Stacey Alright Stacey has to leave Thank you so much for that And for being here in a part of this conversation We do want to keep talking So if anybody else has questions Please feel free and we can keep the conversation going Thank you so much Mad love Brooklyn and I want to say Big up to like Brooklyn Museum For having like a whole slew Of like South African LGBTQI People like in three rooms Upstairs like I mean Barring the fucking gentrification It is amazing And I can't even tell you How amazing it is I love you so much This is more of a statement than a question And before Stacey Anchin runs off I just want to say to both Everyone here Thank you I want to say thank you for Giving voice to those who Could not Was upstairs Looking at the Thing upstairs And I got really sad Because You know these were Some of the Stories that are upstairs Some of them are no longer here And You know that's hard for me to Wrap my head around That someone 19 Someone 25 Could Was murdered For being who they were So I want to say again thank you From the bottom of my heart For giving A voice to those Who could not Tell their own story or give their own voice Thank you for the words, thank you for the pictures And continue And to this gentleman here I'd like to say how can we as men What can we do And what we can do is we can get involved And we can do things We can be allies Because Nobody does anything alone So when you see injustice happening When you see Someone who's hurt Help them in any way that you can I'll tell a very very quick story About I used to volunteer at A women's domestic abuse shelter When I was first asked to do it I just couldn't figure out why I was asked to do this After Volunteering there I realized That for a lot of the women that were there And for a lot of the children that were there Most of them were Black and brown children And they had never ever Had a positive Black male role model In their life and so that was My Responsibility to do that For that year that I was there That was my responsibility so get involved Do what you can And others will follow So thank you Yeah and if I can just Cause I get that question a lot too How can men be involved just To answer it I guess for the last time I think it Comes down to realizing That this stuff happens all the time every day And it's not just the rape It's all these other actions And gestures and interactions that happen All the time every day that enables That stuff to happen That enables rape to happen right So when you have a friend or you have a cousin You have a family member that's making sexist comments Like intervening step in It's about making stuff not acceptable anymore It's not acceptable To be homophobic It's not acceptable to be racist or sexist So any comment any gesture that somebody does Step in and be like that's not okay That's not cool and all of that leads to A shift in our society Where this stuff is not okay and people don't feel Enable to just rape someone and get away with it So that's my answer To that too We have a question over here Yeah sure Hi so I'm coming from this Perspective of around the topic of Young people and education again I work with young people I lead a program About 300 girls it's an all girls Program and I find that Definitely in me just being Visibly and vocally Queer that creates a safer Space for a lot of young women But when we're talking about Rape and consent and we're talking about Sexism you know we're talking about Misogyny and all these things You know I want us to kind of open up The conversation and understand that like Sexism and misogyny is something that's like Not necessarily just like coming from Men towards women and that women exercise Misogyny against each other and so I'm Especially in figuring out for my girls Who are anywhere between 14 to like 19 How can your art Or a lot of art that at least perpetuates Positive images of Lesbian women how do you feel like Those actively transgress The different ways in which we're learning To relate to each other you know I have young women who are finding themselves In safer spaces and They're queer you know and They can be with each other when Their parents right but then also in Private that young person can call Me at 7 o'clock in the morning and say My girl for now just got in a physical fight Right and that is something that Is kind of brushed under the ground Not really seen as domestic violence And people just kind of see it as Like this altercation between girls Because girls are petty girls have drama And that's what it is right and their Relationship or their interactions not Even valued so in looking you know At your art I definitely see like a Mature images you know not necessarily Something that I feel like a 14 year old You know would be able to go home With and feel comfortable like opening And just start a conversation With their parent you know but How do you feel like your art Or other people's art can maybe shift The way women are learning to relate to each other Especially when it comes to images Of how we relate to our bodies Or how we consent to other women Relating to our bodies especially if We're talking about lesbian women because They can get flipped on the head too In that sense What you think here Is for Because then I met that age you know Is for my age group And any age group over 18 and I don't Shoot people who are under age So what you think here is just Half the picture not the Complete picture there are other Projects that I'm involved in Which are not necessarily What you think here this Are selected from a number Of documents To suit this particular issue Of state of activism of Visual activism What we have done Like Terra is another generation Is in her 20s or so And they also are the young women That I work with who are in the same Age group who are born around About 1990 And below We have created structures in which People speak with One generation to the next generation And we started a project In one of that girls' schools in Soweto and girls' Only school in Aurora We gave girls cameras And then Terra and some of the Of Incan Yuso members They teach those girls Including a friend of ours Who is not a lesbian She's a mother of four And she teach girls how They could use visuals to speak Their truths and also to Relate to their day-to-day life So it means that Youth get to Speak to each other and also Use the image or visuals To relate to a number of things Maybe here bullying is a common Thing with our girls The common problem was teenage pregnancy We spoke about that And also the coming out Because we don't have LGBTI groups Like here, you find that other people They want to come out as teenagers But then due to High Due to remband hate crimes It's not easy to say to a person who's 14 Just do it And just be Because if that kid is chased away from home Where will I house her? There are no shelters for lesbians Specifically like how you have here So it means that one need to be Careful in terms of like How do they read my images My body and a young girl's body And how those relate Maybe it will be when she Start maturing And she start having hemestuation And so on and so on I could speak to that child besides Speaking to her about my sexuality Of how a woman become You know, a matured being In that way If I can't deal with that case I can't deal with such I can't claim to know everything So each and every one of us Have something to share So if I can't deal with that matter There are friends who Work in different structures That I could always refer the cases to I don't work alone, I work with the number of people I have not specifically Work with underage The project that I started last year Is with Aurora And also, yes, before where people Or they want to meet with adults And we find that a person looks older And yet she's younger But the minute we discover that the person is young She'll have to be out of our spaces Because we don't want other people Or other adults say We promote lesbianism Or we promote homosexuality With that said We're super careful with the youngsters That we mix with And especially when they are not out from their homes But any other child There are a lot of centers There are other people who Are not maybe in those nonprofit Organizations dealing with that Those who know how to deal with such cases We then refer to them because They know how to deal with them Yeah Situation of gay men Oh, sorry Would you share a bit about the situation Of gay men in townships In South Africa Particularly gay men May Have a manner that others Would define as effeminate And how susceptible Are they to Rape Or any other kind of violence Anything that you would like to share I'd like to hear I've had the privilege of spending some time In townships in South Africa And I'm a gay man My gaydar wasn't very successful At that point And I suspect the situation has changed A lot since then Thank you It's so difficult to speak To speak about gay men We mix a lot With a lot of gay men in townships Because we document in various townships A lot But also to say that Gay men in different parts of the country Are different obviously The hate crime that is happening In South Africa now Is of hate crime In which gay men wear targets of hate crimes Just to give you some picture And there was a case I worked for Behind the Mask Which was an online magazine That reported on LGBTI Affairs in Africa as a whole And Damon Bowden Happened to be one of my colleagues Or a person who worked In the projects after I Just left Unlike in other cases Where lesbians don't mix with gay men And then you find in other cases Where gay men mix with lesbians Because they grew up with them Or maybe they work with them Or we happen to be from the same township When I did my research In different townships I realised that What bearing of lesbians Existed but then Not many of those cases Made it to the mainstream media Like how the lesbians hate crimes One of the most brutal cases When we speak of gay men In any space Is the case that happened At Cislas in Cape Town Where about six gay men were butchered Then they were killed a year ago And that was in 2003 Around that period And then we know of cases Of other gay men Who are members of different churches You know, like the church become The central space where There are gay men or beauty pageants Right now The space that has a lot of Out-trans Women And also feminine gay men Is Davidon because I work with One of the girls there Her name is Lisiba She organises a lot of beauty pageants In which the girls They enter for the beauty Crown or something So I work with them And I photograph them for my beauty series So people are there And they make do with whatever that they have And it's so unfortunate that They do not get the support that they need In order to sustain themselves And also to write their life stories But we are there In a situation of a feminine gay man Or a gay man Who is black and living In the fringes of the society Like deep rural areas Of KZN Those people do not have the same Access like people who are living In urban areas So sometimes it's Difficult to have much access to their To their pictures And also stories etc Otherwise we are everywhere But then it's a matter of getting that one Link which then connects That dots with many other dots I go to VMCI which is a church Headed by Pastor Zungu Who is one of my collaborators And the founding member of the most Prominent churches in So the church is connected To a lot of spiritual Activists who are gay men And members of the church Or who are gay friendly And connected with many And the church right there At the church you have trans women And also gay men who are Dedicated members of the church Who are not your typical Gay boys that you will find At nightlabs But who love and believe in God So there are different dynamics In different spaces From the nightlabs To the beauty pageants To the church I get to meet most of them Because I move around Before we move on to the next question I do want to say that Some of the participants In Zanelli's work are in the audience I think it's a great opportunity If any of them want to come on stage And participate in the conversation I think that would be great Yeah I have Magesh And Pastor Zungu Who are here with me Please guys come forward And then Tara is wearing a rainbow cap Unfortunately She's documenting Otherwise she's here to respond And her picture is upstairs Now We keep on documenting These guys are jet-legged But I think they'll get back To normal now This is Magesh Who is Partner or life partner To Zungu This is our mother Of the church Like how you have the first lady Michelle Obama And she performed last night She was one of my collaborators For the performance last night For those who were here These are the people who give me support Emotionally support when things Are not tuning When I need God I have to travel with members of my Crew And we drive for about 600 kilometers just to be At the church that makes sense to us So this is Pastor Zungu And That's Magesh Zungu They both legally married And their pictures are upstairs as well So for any questions And if you have also questions for Tara Please feel free to ask her Good evening Thank you for being here I Had heard of the event through Information online And I immediately wanted to come because It was about LGBTQ Community in South Africa And I'm like how can that be They have a community because you could die Because that's what I know here That if you come out as being LGBTQ In Africa or the Caribbean You can die So you all are so very courageous And then listening to Stacey and Chen Being reminded of The fact that that can happen anywhere In the world here in New York In Brooklyn, Jersey Everywhere So I'm just very Intrigued By your Strength and how You do come together And I'm scared All the time here And I think it's mainly because I was unfortunately one of those children Who was raped as a child So I'm always aware that I could be hurt at any time And coming out And being a lesbian and being out in the world I'm always aware of having to be Alert about everything that's going On around me Just to hear I can't wait to go upstairs and see the images But that's what I like How do you do it? What is it like to Be free Within the constraints of the country And how they feel About LGBTQ people I greet you all My name is I'm married to We've been together For 15 years It's not easy In South Africa But with God's help I mean we are fine We're trying by all means Because we love God And we just told ourselves That no matter what But nothing can Disturb us We're leading a church And we are the founders Of a victorious minister's church International Which is the first Friendly gay church in South Africa We started in 2005 It was not easy And it started to be okay In 2011 Yeah But it's not easy But we are praising And the number is growing Each and every Sunday It is growing And we are a Bonacrain Christian church Yeah And I don't know Where to start The thing is that I always become emotional But I'll try to talk I'm so happy to be here Zanele is One of the members of our church She always travels And I'm so happy because This is my first time here in New York Because of Zanelem Hawley And I'm so happy to see her job What is doing here And I believe in Praying that one day this can happen Also in South Africa I would like to thank everyone Who's here Who's been supporting the whole work I'm so overwhelmed And I love you all guys And I'm Proudly black Lesbian I love God and I'm a Christian More questions Sure To respond to your question Funera said Whenever somebody is killed Another one of us is born So Each time a lesbian is buried Is born the very same minute So They never stop us They never finish us We'll never be erased in history Or in any space We are here We are you And we'll never go anywhere You said that you're I don't know if you said proud But I hear proud A proud black lesbian woman Who loves God I had attended a unity church Here in the city That had a reverend pastor Regina Holland And that's what I needed to hear I would go there every week To hear her say God didn't make any mistakes You know You're What is it I can't even think of it now But she would just say God didn't make any mistakes You know your love I hear that And the connection To the church and to God Which I'm still seeking Trying to find even in New York A church that I can Well in Jersey I think I have to come to New York A church that I can attend Where I can be with other LGBTQ people And worship freely And be who I am in the church So important Since we came here We've met Pastor Vanessa Brown There's also a church here that we attended last Sunday And they're also Born Again Christians Is Pastor Brown here Tonight The church is called Rivers of Water We went there last Sunday No here in town In the city New York City Not in Harlem New York City Manhattan Oh yeah I don't know this place So like city center Is in like 38th street Broadway to 38th Where is that Oh Okay Okay it's in Manhattan Yes One thing that I want to say For those of you who haven't seen the show upstairs Of course you have to go see it It's really amazing And one thing that really strikes me About it is just seeing All of these faces These dozens and dozens of women On this wall In this institution It really has this presence about it That shows you that it's not just about one individual story We're not just talking about Like this one narrative It's visualizing an entire community Of people And it also shows them in this very Human way So we have images And we have work that is about funerals About weddings About people interacting with each other And having relationships Which I think shows it's not just You have this thought of the black queer Lesbian in South Africa And you think it may be brutality It's not just that They're human beings Whole well rounded Who love each other And the point that this work really points out Which I think is just really beautiful and amazing That was not a question That was just a statement That I want to say about the work But if you could just for a second Just say what does it mean to you To have this work in an institution Like that in front of people In front of these eyes What does it mean to have this work This activist work Featuring these faces These stunning portraits of this community In the museum What is the importance of that Okay There's somebody who raised their hand But I'll respond You start with that Yeah We can answer this question I almost called my mom And I realized that Actually she died in 2009 Honestly say Oh my god mom I'm here I'm here Not only in Brooklyn But I'm at Brooklyn Museum You know Cause then whatever that we're doing We're doing it for our For our mothers Mothers And for our Grandchildren And for our great great great Grandchildren And I'm not here at Brooklyn Museum alone There are so many forces Who are at this space In our history I'm here at South Africa Celebrate 21 years of democracy And the wish means that I've never been given A space like Stacey N said As powerful as this one at home No I've been given Some chance But not as massive as this one So and it basically Means that these spaces Are possible When I started working as a visual activist As a photographer There are so many places That I never thought I could Showcase my work And Brooklyn Museum was not even on my list But then with time And how things shaped And also with the support Of friends and girlfriends And ex-girlfriends And many People who embraced Believe in me And I have a best friend here in New York Her name is Ellen Eisenman She's been my pillar of strength She She quite understand What I want Especially when I cannot articulate myself When I feel like I could speak to someone In Zulu Can somebody understand what I'm trying to achieve And she managed to fix Most of the work that is On this show I don't want to lie to you This is a dream come true Not for only me But paving the way for many Young and old Black lesbians to know that This Is the time and this Space is possible Because I don't know how many black lesbians Who have showcased here Who come from Africa Especially the height of homophobia In xenophobia In Africa, in Europe And different parts of the world I don't know how many of them And it basically says that We have Not me because I don't photograph myself Maybe you might see my portraits That's me But presenting the work of more than 250 black lesbians In one space Or even been given That too many to project them I don't know what other gift Will I ask for Beyond this because Like how Makesh said she's overwhelmed I don't know I really don't know what to say I'm truly honoured and truly grateful And the support that I got From the sisters in the Education department Here who look just like me Who made me feel like I'm at home I'm truly truly honoured guys And I wish my sisters Were here to see You know The sameness that we share So I'm really really really grateful I might not be here next week I might not be here next month But the fact that we were Giving that opportunity To shine in as much as We still face different kind Of prejudice and challenges But the fact that we exist And we're giving a space to be Exhibited and to Share our stories because it's not Only my story but we are many Including Tara Including the Zungus Including many other friends who are back at home That I'm indebted to For giving me the opportunity To photograph them I'm really really thankful You know from within There is no other period You know to say this Yabonga in Zulu And I'll also say Yabonga Which means We are grateful Not alone with all of us And with your support And support doesn't mean only finance But it means emotional support as well Which we need the most Please continue To give us that support Because we need each other Thank you so much I think that that Is a great spot to end it on Thank you so much to Zanelli Maholi For being here in this space With us, for talking with us For sharing this work, for making this work For the participants For making this work as well Thank you all for being here tonight This has been great, thank you all Thanks to you So much to Tatiana For holding it down As a moderator this evening Thank you to Zanelli, thank you to all the participants Do you want to Please I'd like to say Thank you very much For everything It is awesome As a pastor I'd like to say one word You know God didn't make any mistake Any mistake Even if people they can Say negative things about you Don't even bother God says In his word He loved us He created us He gave his only Begotten sign So that whosoever Believe in his word Will be saved Irrespective of gender Irrespective of who Irrespective of race Irrespective of sexuality So We must stand firm Stand boldly And praise the Lord We are so unique And special to God Just like the flowers If you mix the flowers You take the red roses Green one White one It will make the beautiful Beautiful flower We are the same When God creates us But it doesn't mean that we are crooked I always said We are more than straight Because we understand ourselves Clearly I feel so honored and grateful To be participating And working for an institution That honors And values and ablifts And provides a voice for Marginalized and underrepresented people And I think that tonight's Conversation is truly A representation of what is possible I totally agree with Yusunela I thank you so much for saying that I definitely want to thank The Sackler Center for Feminist Art For presenting such work Because I think that the work that's being presented within the Feminist Art Center Continues to challenge our ideals About what is possible and provides a space And a voice for all people I definitely want to thank the Education Division because It's really, really hard to present These programs like this As well as teacher packets And classes with our students With teenagers We are in the room right now We work with people all day every day And we're clearly wanting to provide space For conversations and dialogues like this In addition to that I also want to thank our AV staff The live stream The electricians The assistant maintainers And I just really want to Just provide a space for us To continue the conversation and dialogue To connect and create with one another Use the hashtag Queer trans activism Let's continue this conversation We have an email list in the back That I would love to invite you to sign up on Specifically for programs That are going to be related to this exhibition We're going to be having programs all the way through Until the beginning of November One in particular that I want to shout out Is rethinking gender Narratives that reveal new past Which is going to be on Saturday October 24th from 3 to 5pm We're also going to have A portraiture workshop That is also going to be mimicking Zanelle's process And then also creating opportunity To make our own zine So we can continue to tell our narratives And our stories no matter what background you are And there's going to be a lot of other programs Throughout the summer so please continue to support And thank you Zanelle For uplifting us I'm just so grateful for you And I'm grateful for all of the participants And I'm grateful for Tatiana and Stacy and Chen And I just wish you all a wonderful evening I hope that you can nourish yourselves And please let's stay connected and stay in touch And thank you so much for coming tonight