 And we're going to talk to people who aren't vegan but love dogs. The circle of life. The circle of life? So you're actually using the Lion King as a scientific source here. I care about why YouTube people, who are good people, still pay for animals to be stabbed and killed when you're against it. You care for animals, right? But then there's insects and rabbits and stuff that I guess killed. Do you think I don't know about that? How you going, my friend? I'm Joey. I'm Jerry. Jerry. Nice to meet you, Jerry. You've read the sign? Yes. Animal lovers who aren't vegan are hypocrites? Yes, I read that. Yeah. Do you disagree or agree with the sign? I'll disagree slightly, yeah. Can I just give you my full argument? Yeah, always. So I'm saying that for the same reasons people love dogs like muffins over here, they feel pain, they're sentient, they want to live, they get happy and have different personalities and if anyone hurts a dog it's string them up, kill them. If anyone hurt a dog in this society, boom. But on their plate are a bunch of different species of animals or animal products that come from animals that were enslaved, tortured and murdered that inherently are the same in all the ways that matter. They're sentient, they feel pain, they want to live, they don't want to suffer. Now I'm saying that those people who claim to be dog lovers and if anyone touches a dog they want to kill them. I'm saying that they are moral hypocrites. Do you agree or disagree with my position? I'm kind of a bit on the disagree side but I get what you're saying. It's logical you mean. Yeah it's logical yeah but I guess it's not fully logical in the sense that I mean you are raising a carnivore, the dog is going to eat me either way and in order to get that meat it needs to be farming and all those are also a process and I guess you know see that's me. Your argument is from the dog's dietary position, not yours? Am I as well? You're saying? Because I mean... Well what's your justification for... You're a vegan right? Yeah of course yeah. So okay so... I'm not a hypocrite. You don't want to... You want us to pretty much stop the farming industry correct? I want to stop the animal exploitation and violence industry 100% not the farming where we cultivate plants. I don't know I seem like you're animal industry right? Of course it's slavery and it's a holocaust. How are we going to feed our pets then once that happens? Okay we can talk about that and I'm very willing to talk all about pets with you. Can we start with you and then go to pets because I want to talk about the most important topic first which is how do you justify causing this holocaust of animals when you have vegan alternatives? Whatever you call a holocaust I mean I'm from a you know not our first world country I mean I've seen how they have my treated over there committed to here and I feel like it's much better over here than over... Can I show you? Yeah yeah. This is graphic are you okay with that? Yeah I'm fine. Okay so this is all a standard Australian footage. Australian man what year is this? This is from about 2017 onwards. So this is they're taking the calves away from the mother cow here this is standard because the calves will eat the dairy or consume the dairy from the mother we need that dairy because we want to abuse we want to kill these male calves because they don't produce milk so the male calves are taken from the mother they don't produce milk so they're killed really young and that the female calves will grow on to be milk slaves. Are they wheels? Like wouldn't they become wheels? They can do or if they kill them really really young they just treat them as garbage I don't know dog food or whatever I don't know. Well that's okay then do you think that's okay what if we were killing dogs and feeding them to dogs that wouldn't be okay so here's the animal here trying to you know avoid the bolt gun this is semen collection because they're milking a boar they're jacking off a boar to inseminate females so they're raping these animals yeah well I'm immature about it. Nah you're laughing because it's ridiculous. Yeah it's ridiculous and you said you know so you're a G.E. pork? A little bit not as much as before but yeah. Well you're a little bit paying for pigs to be raped so you know so this is happening because of you that's why I'm showing you because you pay for this you're responsible for this this is the piglets this is blunt force trauma they grab the pigs by the hind legs and smash them on the ground if they don't grow fast enough this is stock standard you can look up the industry practice this is the way they get rid of piglets basically this is a wiener pen they're growing them and then after six months they chuck them in a gas chamber. Gas chamber yeah this was RSPCA approved till they activists went in there and got the footage and told them how the hell do you approve something so horrific because they're struggling they're trying to escape they're screaming for their lives. That's not good. This is Australia this is why this is a holocaust it's a gas chamber. Well the thing is when I buy me an EME I'm not really you know you don't see them. I don't support the practice of this kind of practice but I support the farmer that needs a job that needs a you know so you support the oppressor not the victim I support the victim you support the oppressor. I mean do we have enough money to give them to find a different job I mean they can they can find another job these animals can't find another life they've been enslaved and murdered who do you care more about who's suffering matters more here. The problem is also look at the farmer right I mean look at this guy do you like this guy? No not really. Why not? He needs a job. I mean his job is to rape and kill animals. I mean it's not rape but then the killing is justified based on the fact that I mean I mean you're feeding the animal you're giving them life I mean look at the vaccine is developed for the pigs you know without them in the wild they would have died through. We're breeding them and chuck them in sheds they need vaccines because they'll get diseases in there. In the wild there is disease and stuff you know mad cow disease stuff like that you know if humans didn't end the vaccines all cows would have gone extinct pretty much. These animals only exist because we mass breed them and selectively breed them. These are animals specifically food slaves these ones here that don't exist in the wild. Pig? Borg? Wild Borg do but not these type of pigs that you're eating I'm saying this is a human manufactured freak show. I can agree with that yeah. You pay for it that's what I'm saying and how are you not a hypocrite if you claim to be against this but you're eating it you're paying for it. I mean how are you not a hypocrite like you know if you are a dog lover these pigs are intelligent than dogs yeah intelligence of a three-year-old child scientifically we'll go against science if you want but the science is there you can look it up but also when I buy it right I'm not like ordering the slaughter the thing is already done you know what else can happen to it. Do you know how supply and demand works you ever study economics? Yeah a little bit yeah so you buy a heroin off of me yeah right you're supporting the heroin industry I'll go and buy more heroin it comes from somewhere supplied down the supply chain okay you buy you buy it. Look at this Mac we're pretty much supporting the child slavery industry you know. Well is there child slavery in this Mac? I mean do you know who makes the labs? Apple? Yeah do you know in China? In China? Yeah do you know who works there and do you know the wages are paid? The low wages are different to enslaving and chopping someone's body up and selling their body. I mean what would you rather... It's not someone it's animals right we've got to distinguish animals that differ from humans in the sense that I mean... Someone is someone who suffers inside of there yeah do you agree animals shouldn't be abused and tortured? Of course. But if they're not someone who gives a shit? I mean no that's why this organisation exists right it's to protect animals from abuse and stuff but then... If they're not someone who cares there's someone inside of Muffin who has a personality would you agree? What do you mean by someone I don't really understand that part? An individual. An animal yes. There's an... They're sentient do you agree animals are sentient? Sorry I'm... Do you know what sentient... Like they're conscious. I'm ESL sorry. Okay so animals are conscious. Yes they are conscious. Like you are you know how you experience reality? Yes. Animals do that too. So there's a subject inside who goes I want food. I want water. I want to not be murdered yeah. Get that knife away from my throat I'm scared. Yes. Who's doing that if they're not someone? I mean other animals also look at other animals and go okay you know what that looks like I'm going to hunt and kill it you know. So you agree there's someone inside there? Not someone but like you know brains and feelings I guess you obviously. What if I said there's not someone inside you? Well I'm a human someone refers to human I guess. So you don't think animals have a personality or they're not individual? They are individual but they're different. How is that? I'm just distinguishing that humans are different from animals I guess. I know we're different but there's still someone inside of an animal. Someone. Someone inside of an animal? I thought you were some person like that. There's not a person inside of that? Yes. Not a human inside of that? I'm saying there's a subject? Yes indeed. Yes there is a subject. Otherwise they couldn't be conscious and sent in and be manoeuvring around and going hey I want that ball. Yes. So you're saying animals aren't someone? No they are someone but not some person. So they matter? Animals matter? Of course they are. That's why this organisation is here. Animals do matter. So what I'm saying is how are you not a hypocrite if you're paying for someone to be raped and killed and you're saying you're against it? How are you not a hypocrite? And we talked about supply and demand and I said you're paying for someone to be directly enslaved and chopped up into pieces and then you pointed up this equipment here and you said somewhere down the line there's some piece of mineral somewhere that could quite have possibly been a low paid worker or maybe even a slave somewhere. Who the f**king knows? You're pointing out I can point to your stake and go that's a slave chopped up. It is the slave chopped up. I mean most cows you know have you seen the farming industry in Japan the cows are pretty much chilling. Enjoying the life. The wagyu you mean? Yeah. Wagyu. They're chilling in the slaughterhouse when they get shot in the skull and have their head cut off? Is that chilling? That's like five minutes and then they don't feel anything. Well what if it's five minutes for you you don't feel anything is that cool? I mean when I die you know it's five minutes you know before death. Natural death is different if I cut your head off right here where would I go? Okay if animals die with natural causes do you support eating it or not? I think it's very weird and disgusting but I don't see it if you've seen a pigeon that was dead dead. I don't see it. You know cows and stuff. Do you eat animals that die out of natural causes? Well it depends what kind of causes you know if it was like a sudden brute force let's say let's say I'm a sweetfisher right a sweetfisher let's say I was sweetfishing and the boat I don't know hit a fish and they somehow die I hate that. Why are you out there with a spear murdering fish and expecting a boat to hit a fish? Oh it happens. It just doesn't make any sense you're out there we're out there consciously trying to murder animals I'm saying steer away from the conscious steer away from the mentality that animals are here for your food okay because they're not here for you they exist for their own they actually exist because farmers are breeding them to be slaves but when they're sentient they don't think that they're here for anyone else they're just trying to live and survive and they don't want to be harmed. Yeah but then okay right now right now let's say the farm industry is pretty bad right I can't agree with that what should we do with these animals right now? Right now there's no way out for them. Yes so what do you think we should do? I think I can tell you what you should do. I can tell you what you should do. No well we should do not me because I'm just my individual you know. You're an individual who abuses animals. I don't really abuse them I mean I just eat them they're already dead. But you pay for them to be killed. I don't know if they're you know being killed that way or they die natural causes and they just you know. Oh 100% guarantee you ain't eating no animal that died of natural causes. That doesn't exist. When you go on a supermarket animals aren't dying of natural causes that's absolute that's a ridiculous thought. But don't they die in the farm naturally? They die by a knife across their throat. Sometime in the farm they get thrown in the dead bin. I've been in dead bins in farms these animals that are dead. That's a waste of meat. That's a waste of meat that's a waste of life. This is a waste of animals' life. Slashing their throats open. So I'm saying that you're paying for this do you disagree that you pay for this? I do pay for that yes. So you're an animal abuser. You have to be because you do agree that this is animal abuse? This is I mean is this animal abuse? It's a very I'm not even trying to it's not a trick question. That is pretty bad I mean put yourself in that position. I'll hang you up by your legs and slash your throat open. Is that human abuse? That is murder. It's not about abuse that I mean I'm abusing your body when I chop it up and sell it to someone. It is abuse I guess but you know. Well people think slapping their their husband or their wife is domestic abuse. Oh it is. When you're doing this to someone what's this? It is abuse I guess. It's the most extreme abuse you pay for. Yeah it is abuse I guess. This is the most abusive and cruel thing you ever do and have ever done. That is pretty you know abusive. Why do you think I'm a vegan? I don't know. Because I don't want to be an animal abusing hypocrite that's why. Okay let's get back on topic a bit. This is on topic, this is on topic. What about the dog thing? Okay now I'm saying that people who love dogs right and seeing this happen to a dog they'd be like stop please then they go and then they go and eat the cow. I'm saying that they're hypocrites do you still disagree with the sign? Okay so could you just repeat that again? So people who love dogs and if they saw a dog here with this cow it's just about to face right now. They'd be like stop don't kill them you animal abuser. They love dogs now then they go and eat this cow. Are they a hypocrite? They go and eat this cow that just got murdered. Right who's just like the dog in most ways. Are they a hypocrite? They're kind of are yeah. Do you know what hypocrite means? Yeah they're kind of are I guess. They're blatantly are. If you don't do that how you supposed to feed your dog that's the thing. If you don't mass breed cows and shoot them in the skull. All the dog eat then because there's no vegan supplement for dogs. So first of all we talk about dogs but you agree that this is hypocritical. So you agree with the premise of the sign anyway yeah? You agree with the sign now you've agreed that this is hypocritical. If you care about dogs but pay for animals to be killed who are just like dogs. No but then how you supposed to carefully though without this happening that's the thing. Because you're not feeding and that's pretty much you know. Yeah I get it. So let's just say you're a vegan now. Yeah I'm a vegan. Oh wow you realized I'm an animal abuser. I'm only a vegan looking. Don't worry about that this vegan junk food you can stay that big if you want but. No I don't want to. But but listen bro like let's just say you're a vegan now. Okay now I've got my dog oh shit I don't want to be an animal abusing hypocritical. Well then we can formulate dog food with technology that mimics the same macronutrient ratio as meat does. Yes. Okay and actually has the same nutrient supplemented into them that they need. Without holocausting a bunch of cows because let me just put this point to you before you finish. How about we get a bunch of dogs. Shoot them in the skull to feed to another bunch of dogs. No one would agree with that so why do we do it to cows. Why do we do it to pigs. Do you think muffins going to take down a pig. Why do we feed muffin do you think muffins going to be fishing for a tuna. Yeah probably not. So why don't we just formulate there's vegan pet food by the way you might not have heard of it. And dogs are omnivores they do very well on a vegan diet it's completely fine for them. It's even more hypocritical to shoot a cow in the head to feed to a little dog. When that cow matters just as much as that dog. I'm saying it's still hypocritical. Do you do agree that I've answered your argument very well. Do you are you satisfied with that response. I still got one more question and now I might be sad okay. So you know how the hypocrite bite by eating meat right. Because you know if you eat meat you know that's pretty much contributing to the. Direct slavery and cutting up a piece of animal. Okay what would you suppose we eat them without. 100% plant based diet. Do you know how much insect the animal have to get killed to make way for the plant to grow and stuff. Yeah I do. How do you agree to that. Because what else are you supposed to find that you know just because the animal is large has more feelings than others. That's okay to kill you know the little ones the insects. I understand your argument I've heard this. Yeah I've heard this argument before. What do the animals that you eat eat. What do the animal eat eat. What is their diet what is the cow and the pig and the chicken. Vegetables okay okay. Now there's okay so how many more plants do you eat when you eat a steak. Then when you just eat the plants directly. How many more how many magnitudes more plants are you eating when you just eat a steak. How many plants went into that cow for their resources and their water. When you eat a steak. I'm not too sure I guess it's you know. Many many more so what I'm saying is that you're magnifying your crop deaths. By eating a steak then you would if you just ate the crops directly. No but the most ethical thing to do would just be to eat the plants. Otherwise shoot yourself in the head and I don't advocate for that. No but the problem is that the plants and stuff the animal eat we don't eat it. Look at wheat and look at barley you know. We could. You know you can't you can't live on no wheat but like the dry thing I don't know. I'm saying I'm saying hey yeah yeah I think you okay. The most ethical thing you can do. Yes because you're still causing all these crop deaths that you care about. Insects and all that you care about them. I don't really care about anything to be honest right now. Okay well I do. You care for animals right but then there's insects and rabbits and stuff that gets killed because I know about that. Do you think I don't have do you think I don't know about that? Not too sure. I know very well about that. I feel like you're sitting there saying eating these animals are bad but then I eat my vegetable even though the animal gets killed in order to make those vegetables. I can tell you right now my life causes harm. Your life causes harm. My life causes some amount of harm I agree with that. Yes. Yes so I can see I can see that. Yes. Okay does that mean that I should then cause the maximum amount of slavery and suffering and murder to whoever I want because I cause some amount of harm? Or should I just cause the least amount of exploitation and harm as I practically can by not eating these animals who have fed a bunch of crops who also incur crop deaths. Okay and stop enslaving and killing animals through my lifestyle and try to at least minimize what I can without being a fucking total complete hypocrite. I'm sorry I kind of lost your help. So you're pretty much saying that these animals are being fed magnitudes more crops many many more crops than you would otherwise eat by themselves. Okay so when you eat a steak you're eating way more crops than I am. Well eating a steak you're eating more crops than you are. Which incur what? Crop deaths and insect deaths? No because the crops are grown differently. The wheat, the cow's eat most glasses. They don't use pesticides on those crops? I don't think so. They have to to protect the 100% guarantee you they use the most pesticides actually used on the crops that are fed to animals? No because they're used in humans because if you look at an ugly you know cabbage there's holes in worms juice so you're not going to eat that. That's why there's much more pesticides in there. When you feed cows you mostly feed them with the uh dry stuff. Wheat and soy 90% of the soy is fed to animals yeah? 90% of soy. Magnitude? Is it all soy or scrap soy? No no no most of the crops I mean you can look into this I don't want to debate you on what is true because you haven't researched this I have. So you're debating me on facts and I don't want you to you know get lost in the woodwork here. Yeah no I'm just wondering. So just just maybe be curious. Yes I will be curious. These animals there's 70 billion of them what are they fucking eating? They're eating dried hay. Not just hay they eat grain they eat they do eat grasses which they grow this grass and they harvest it which kills what insects? Yes. Which kills rodents? Yes. So you're feeding all of these crops to an animal to have a steak when you could just be eating a small amount of crops to sustain yourself and those would be that would be justified because what are you what are you supposed to do? You're not actually eating it up a little bit I don't cry because I'm pretty sure that when you look at the calorie of a steak versus you know a head of cabbage one small piece of steak is you know. You went steak to cabbage let's go steak to rice. To rice. Steak to wheat. Do we even got rice in Australia? You know you can have a handful of wheat which would be the same amount of calories as a small steak but when you think about how much how many crops that animal took to feed them magnitudes more this is what I'm saying. Do we grow most of the wheat in southern Australia or do we import them? Most of the the cropland on earth is fed to the animals we eat. I'm saying the best thing you can do if you give a fuck about ethics which I'm not sure that you do because you haven't said that you do but. I said I agree with most of the you know. The arguments but you don't want to change or. I'm willing to I'm just listening to you. What I'm saying is the best the best thing you can do is eat plant-based because that causes the minimal amount of crop death or indirect harm as possible to animals and insects. Okay yeah because of cow it's how because of cow. Look I didn't reach to the fact that if you're saying that that is a raw fact that by eating less animal I'm contributing less to animal slaughter and torture and I'm not really supporting you know. Actual slavery. Actual slavery from several countries which we get most of our you know. I mean like this is actual slavery. Yeah well there's actual slavery when these terrible country where they grow plants and stuff but I'm not going to go into that but yeah if you think that if I eat a lot of Australian vegetable Australian grown stuff and the farmers are you know being treated fairly and I'm not reducing animal then yes I will eat more you know vegetables and stuff. Yeah because when you eat meat you're literally eating someone who was murdered and chopped up into pieces and enslaved that's a very different that's a black and white for me. You know when you start going oh Joey you walked away here you stepped on a few ants mate you know I'm going to keep eating my steak you're a hypocrite. You think that makes sense? No it really makes sense. Yeah because that's kind of what you're doing you're going to go do you know how many animals are killed for your crops yeah I do. I do I'm a wedge do you know? I do know it's a lot you know. It's a lot more if you're eating animals. Yeah well if you say so then. Because pigs are eating grain. Chickens are eating grain. Chickens are eating soy. How many chickens of you know there's billions of chicken you know half a billion chickens are just slaughtered here in Australia alone half a billion chickens what are they eating bro grass worms half a billion chickens are mostly free reign right they peck around and stuff no that's ridiculous no no sorry bro I know you don't know much about this but yeah they're mostly factory farmed the vast majority of farmed in factories like this big sheds like this and they're all fed grain you know and when you eat chicken you're eating tons of grain you know so if you just ate the grain yourself you're causing a lot less harm to the earth as well and to the insects and shit if I start eating vegan will it really make a big impact on the it just means that you're not an animal abusing hypocrite anymore okay okay because if you care about torturing and killing animals which you should I mean if you don't then I don't respect you but if you do if you do care about this suffering in this unnecessary holocaust then the best thing you do is just be consistent and go okay what can I do okay well I can stop paying for their dead bodies to start with I can stop consuming the eggs that come from these slaves that are killed and I can stop stealing the milk that was meant for someone else's baby who are all slaughtered and then you know you can move on from there stop wearing their skin like just really easy black and white things that makes me about that how are we gonna supposed to get most of our population to do these that's a thing as well well that's a practical issue and that's what I'm trying to do here while posting these videos and getting people to think logically about animal abuse we're working on it but we can't work on it if you're still paying for it you're working against us you're working against the animals I can't somewhat agree with that yeah what do you how do activists change the world how did activists abolish slavery and the civil rights movement and all these injustices that were happening how did they change that the world wasn't on board at the start yeah I know I agree with that but would that with that practical issue would that be a reason to not even try no I said of course try you know I support if you actually like you know go do something that prevents it like I don't know I do I'm an activist full-time activist like gonna start start your own company that grows vegetables and stuff you know I'm making tastes like me so at least you could you know allow people to you know I want to destroy these industries I want to destroy them but I don't care about anyone's jobs here I want them to find different jobs so I don't care about this job so yeah shouldn't we also you know as an actor shouldn't you also like start companies that give job to these farmers my job is to stop people abusing animals all right is there now other people can work in innovating you know plant food production that's their job my job is to stop you from abusing these animals so pretty much all you want to do is just to make us stop and that's all you're gonna do yeah and then what happens to demand and then we can work for government change as well to implement laws that stop animal slavery but without enough people like you on board how are we supposed lobby for government no one supports us so we want to get people go hey I'm I don't want to be an animal abusing hypocrite anymore I want to support these new laws to lobby against animal slavery we're gonna start here it starts with you yeah that makes sense I guess yeah it's much better but how about the rest of the world as all right now we're just Australia it's a big I know I know that's a big thing but right now you can take the knife out your hand yeah I mean metaphorically you know what I mean but also if we stop eating me what do you recommend as a substitute because some some nutrients I can get some good stuff you got no worries with nutrients except b12 which is supplemented in all the food system anyway because b12 is killed it's bacteria that is killed in the water supplier now everything's all sanitized the b12 so it's added as a supplement to cereals and fortified plant milks and all of that so you don't have to worry about that but Andy over here has got some information for you yeah so when you leave this table right now you obviously agreed with that dog lovers hypocrites if they pay for other animals to be killed you you agree that that's hypocritical yes but when you leave here today you can either be a vegan or an animal abusing hypocrite so which one is it so could you just repeat that I guess slowly when you when you when you leave here today it's either you choose to be a vegan yes or you choose to be a hypocrite who abuses animals yes so what would you choose when you leave I will try my best to become a week I'll try my best but you know yeah you'll try to stop being uh animal abuser I'll try to eat less meat I guess yeah oh no meat you know I wouldn't advocate ever for you to eat less or to try I'm advocating for yeah you'll be honest with me which is good and I'll be honest with you back I don't want you to try I want you to stop and I don't want you to reduce I want you to eliminate okay yeah and Andy's going to give you some info hi Andy it's nice talking to you both