 If hell ain't that bad, then heaven ain't that great. Most people have heard of the Bible Project with over three million subscribers. More than likely, you have heard of the Bible Project. But there is an issue with the Bible Project. Some people have covered a few of their issues and so I wanna do the same thing today. And I wanna show you the problem that I have with the Bible Project. I think it's a pretty serious issue. As a matter of fact, though the Bible Project does teach a lot of good, for the most part, it's a pretty good channel in terms of what they cover, how they present it, well organized, these graphics and so forth, the writings, the cartoons and so forth, very well done. However, is it possible that something that good in this production and even some of this presentation can also have a heretical teaching or two? Well, in this case, it does. Though there is more than one person who is the head or is presented at the Bible Project, most people understand and see the Bible Project as being mainly the face, the voice of Tim Mackey. And I'm not gonna go too far into his own little social issues, though he seems to be kind of leaning more towards a more socially conscious, maybe a social justice warrior, if you will. I won't go into that, though you'll see if you ever listen to his statements on racism and social justice, you'll see kind of where his theology and his view of social life kind of the lines are blurred. And normally it wouldn't even be that big of a deal to worry about the way someone looks at something off camera, the way if they're not presenting something to certain people, but he does make some doctrinal and theological statements to people. And so it's kind of hard to divorce what he's saying separately from the Bible Project because again, they're pretty much one in the same. The two big issues that people have and they're the two big issues that I have, one on how he treats the atonement, how he looks at what salvation is for, how it's brought about, and what we're saved from. I believe that his teachings on the atonement, hell as well as heaven, not just border on heresy but actually is heresy. Am I saying that he's a heretic or that the Bible Project, the channel itself is a heretical page, heretical channel? No, that's not what I'm saying. These are some false teachings. I'm not quite yet ready to label him as a false teacher but maybe you will have to hear this. One of the things that Tim Mackey does is he has this emphasis, this focus on this earth. What's happening here? And I don't know if that's intentional, if maybe we're just seeing it the wrong way but he has this view that possibly even where we ought to be or where we want to be or even where Paul says that our true citizenship is though it's in heaven, it's really more about being here. In other words, having heaven on earth. So Paul says that for followers of Jesus, their true citizenship is in heaven, which for Paul does not mean that we should all hope to get away from earth and go to heaven one day. Rather, heaven is the transcendent place where Jesus reigns as king. So it's almost as though he has this metaphorical view of heaven as well as we're gonna see with hell that not only should we have or look for an actual heaven on earth but we can have it now and that eternally our focus is not to be with him but just to have a heaven like life here on earth. It's kind of not totally sure what he's getting at here but there's no biblical basis for that in the Bible. What we do is we read that story down to the story of what's happening here and then we bring Jesus into it and what we end up with is a story that says God's perfect, he's holy and he's perfect. You're not, so God has to kill you. He has to kill you, he needs his pound of flesh. Now he's saying that's not necessarily the way the gospel is and that look, listen how he states it, that he's looking for his pound of flesh as though there is no real punishment for sin as though we're not being saved from some sort of punishment. It's almost though he's making light of one what the toman is about but also what we are being saved from. To in the name of his justice and so he's gonna kill you because he's angry at you but instead he's gonna kill Jesus and he takes out his anger on Jesus and then he allows you after you die to go to the good place and not the bad place so you can sing forever the praises of the God who didn't kill you. Hey guys doing. Now some of you, I'm creating a caricature but for some of us you might think like yeah isn't that the story of Christianity? Isn't that what Christians believe? End of the meaning of a tongue. Well Tim, that actually is the story. That literally is what's happening here but something about this story that didn't really sit well with him. And this is one of those cases where there's so many distorted not even half truths, one third truths in what I just described to you that there's nothing recognizable of actual gospel in what I just described to you if you actually read what's in the New Testament. If you read the character of God in the New Testament if you read the character of God in the Old Testament you'd be able to spot what I just said to you as a total distortion and perversion of God's character and of the good news. What he has done and what he is doing is he's kind of painting God as this nice fluffy happy warm and cuddly God who there is no anger, there is no wrath in him but he's all about good, he's all about love. Now he is a loving God, he is a good God but he's also a God of wrath but the way that he is portraying him who does that remind you of? People say I don't talk about sin but I do talk about how we live our life and making good choices and at the end of every one of our services I talk about I believe the greatest sin and that's to miss the mark of not knowing your creator. This symbolism communicates to me that when I behave, when I fail, when I sin I'm introducing death into God's good world because you take one prideful human who thinks they're better than everybody else but you put them in a tribe, you multiply that person by a million and then all of a sudden we are better and our well-being is way more important than that tribe's well-being and then we get into a fight over resources like water or something like that. What's gonna happen? We're gonna kill each other, we're gonna kill each other. The brokenness and the distortion of the human heart sin creates death in God's good world and this animal dies to tell me that the stakes are so high and so for these Israelites, every time you go and you offer this animal what you're reminded of is not that God is angry at you it's the exact opposite. God gave me this whole ritual symbolism to remind me that he loves me. He doesn't want to kill me because God could just do that if God wanted to. So yeah, he's right. So in one sense it is showing God's love but there's a reason why there needs to be this atonement to keep us away from God's wrath. His wrath is not metaphorical, it's not figurative, it is literal, there is literally hell to pay. Now we're gonna go ahead and talk about this issue with him and hell and heaven as well but also how the atonement either relates or doesn't relate as far as he's concerned. One of the things that Tim fails to kind of look at is this whole issue of the atonement, what it's for, what's happening, this what we call the substitutionary atonement. In other words, someone else paying a penalty and notice this isn't just a figurative or a metaphorical penalty, this is a literal penalty. In Leviticus 1711 he says, for the life of the flesh is in the blood and I have given it to you or given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. So this blood isn't figurative, it isn't metaphorical, this is literal blood that comes from an animal. Now we know who takes a place of this animal, Jesus does and this isn't just figurative or metaphorical blood either, this is actual blood, someone dies, in this case Jesus dies, why? So that it pays the penalty of sin. Remember the whole point of the atonement is this, there's this covering, this canceling and reconciliation. There's a covering of sin, there's a canceling of the debt and there's this reconciliation where the parties are brought back together. Well, the debt that's being paid is what's called this propitiation and the propitiation is just a payment for, in this case payment for what's required to satisfy God's wrath. Is one particular misunderstanding or one particular distortion about Jesus? That I have found to be extremely common in the other place, the bad place will be held. And heaven, if you kind of fish this out of people in the popular cultural imagination is, these are both like maybe disembodied non-physical places, this has to do with clouds and harps and singing in the presence of God and this has to do with like some subterranean torture chamber or something like that, right? We're God is sadistically hurting people. I mean, you guys with me? This is what people think that followers of Jesus believe. The vast majority of people in the West think that this is what you believe. And some of you in the room might be thinking, yeah, that is what I believe. And so I just, I love you and I care about you. And this is wrong, this is wrong. The main problem with this story is the Bible. And the other main problem with this story is the actual life and teachings of Jesus. Now, he calls this the way he looks at it as though it's sadistic. No, it's not sadistic. If let's say he's wrong and we're right, that God, that there will be torment in him. We'll look at that in a second, but he calls it sadistic. Why does he even have, it makes you wonder where this is view come from. I mean, I'm just thinking about my neighbors, right? Who are on my street in Portland and the people who work at Porcanale. And I just talked to them about find out what they think about Jesus. One of the greatest gifts that we can offer people is clarifying who Jesus actually is by asking questions, inviting that conversation and then offering our story and our conviction about who Jesus is. Oh, well, maybe that's it. Maybe, and I'm not saying that there's anything bad about the city of Portland or Oregon, but tends to be a little bit more liberal, a little bit more left leaning. And maybe that's kind of influencing the way he's looking at the scripture. In the beginning, God made heavens and, what does it not say? It doesn't say in the beginning, God made heaven and earth and hell. God didn't make, whatever hell is, God didn't make it. It's nowhere to be found on page one of your Bible, right? What God made is heaven and earth and what does God think about it? It's very good, it's very good. So whatever hell is, it comes into the story later. But when he says that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, but he did not create hell. Well, in the beginning, he's speaking about what was created in the physical. Hell is not necessarily a physical location. It's not like we can get on a plane, board a plane and go there, get on a bus or drive there. No, this is a place that we go to spiritually, okay? Now, if you don't think that this is a, now it's gonna be physical in terms of the way that it's felt, not physical in terms of there's a road to get there, except by him sending us there. Because he's gonna make a statement about how we get there that is just really, really troubling. Hell isn't just something about like the end of the game. Hell is a reality that is present now. It's a reality that humans unleash on each other and on God's good world to ruin and destroy relationships and to destroy people. Hell is something that we have created on earth. And God hates hell. And the story of the Bible is a story about God wanting to heal his world and get the hell out of earth. Are you with me? That's the story of the Bible. It's God hates hell. Because hell is about the unleashing of selfishness and evil and the breakdown and the degrading of dignified, image-bearing human beings. That's what hell is. And the book of Genesis tells the story of Genesis, chapters three through 11, known as the story of the fall. But that's what's happening. It's humans unleashing hell on earth. And God hates it because he loves his good world. And he loves human beings who are made in his image. That's what the story of the Bible is. We're told in Luke 16, verse 22, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abram's side or his bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. Look at it says in 23. And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abram. Now, we could just stop there because the point is that this isn't some nice, rosy place. This is a place of torment, okay? We're also told in John chapter three, verse 36, that whoever believes in the sun has eternal life. Whoever does not obey the sun shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. So this isn't something metaphorical, nothing that's figurative, this is literal, okay? Because remember we're also told that where this person goes, where the wrath of God is born on this person and this person goes to hell, what does Jesus say? That there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Now, he makes this statement that hell is not something that God created, but that we created. Now, you see why we're saying that this is heretical teaching. No, we don't create hell. As a matter of fact, if at all possible, mankind would avoid creating hell. And that he doesn't send us there. We send ourselves there, but I beg to differ. Matter of fact, not only do I beg to differ, so do scriptures. In Luke 12, five, it says, but I will warn you whom to fear. Fear him who after he has killed has the authority to cast into hell. I tell you, fear him. So who cast you to hell, you or him? Well, him, God. God is the one who casts us to hell. He sends us there, not us. Again, if we could avoid it, it wouldn't go. So what he is doing is he's really making light of a couple of things. One, he's making light of what we're actually saved from. And also in doing so, he's making light of how we are saved. Where and what is hell on the last page of the Bible? Hell is God's monument, as C.S. Lewis says, to human dignity and choice. If someone refuses to be healed by the great physician, God will honor that decision. But what God will not do is allow hell to continue ruining his good world. And so the image that the last page of the Bible uses is of the great new garden city of heaven and earth married together again. And hell is outside the city. It's outside the city. It's God's mercy to contain human evil and to not let it eternally ravage his good world and his good image-bearing humans. And for those who refuse to participate in God's recreation of heaven and earth, he honors that decision, they remain outside the city. Now there's all kinds of details that we want to know that the Bible does not give us about this. What it does is it tells us goodness about the person of Jesus. It tells us that Jesus is so committed to getting the hell out of his world and out of you, that he lived for you, that he died for you, and that he was raised for you. Turn to him and believe the good news. How you guys doing? This is the story the Bible is telling. And it's at the same time a challenging story that will still be challenging and offensive and difficult to talk about, but I'm telling you it's a compelling story because your friend who doesn't believe in Jesus also wants this. Are you with me? You, your neighbor wants the same thing that God wants. Are you with me? Right? Now that's gonna involve a whole lot of conversation, but this is a compelling story if we can help ourselves understand it. And you will not be compelled to share this story personally unless you actually experiencing the loving, healing power of Jesus, begin to remove the hell from you and to give you new life. And so though it is true that while God loves us, that part is true, but he shows his love by delivering us from his wrath. His wrath is shown in us being sent to hell. And then of course hell is taken up and cast into the lake of fire. There is eternal torment there. But the way he makes it seems as though hell is not that bad a place. Let me say that if hell ain't that bad, then heaven ain't that great. If hell is just an optional place to go to, someplace you know what God, I'd rather not be there with you. Okay, fine, you're a gracious person. I'll let you go ahead and go to hell and just hang out there. You just won't be with me. Won't be as nice. That's literally what he's saying. Now he misses all of that in his whole point, even on the channel when speaking about Romans, but there's a part that he misses that's very clearly in Romans, pretty obviously known texts, talked about texts as a matter of fact, people that go out evangelizing, they use this text often. And so Paul concludes, all humanity, Gentiles, Israelites are hopelessly trapped and guilty before God, but that is not the final word. The good news about Jesus is God's response. Instead of holding humanity guilty, Jesus came as Israel's Messiah to die on behalf of all people as a sacrifice for sins. As our representative, Jesus took into himself all of the just consequences of the pain, the sin and the death that we have caused in the world. And he overcame it all by his resurrection from the dead. It's his new resurrection life that he makes available to others. This is Romans three. Just for all of sin and fall short of the glory of God and are justified by his graces as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Another passage, Romans five eight says that, but God shows his love in us or to us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Since therefore we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God? For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son. Much more now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life? Look at verse 11, more than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ whom we have now received the reconciliation. This word reconciliation is this Greek word, the word katalage in its definite tank, katalage, which guys this means the atonement, the reconciliation of the atonement. So he's speaking now we're saved by the atonement. What atonement? The atonement that Christ gave for us or made for us on the cross by his literal shedding of blood. So the problem that we have here with Tim Mackie is that he has literally made light of three things. One, hell, two, heaven, since we're not necessarily trying to be citizens there, we just wanna live a certain, a nice godly life on earth and not go to that other place that's not quite as godly, which is hell. And so in doing so, he makes light of the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross. Think about that for a second. The main reason that Jesus Christ came was to be a propitiation for us to pay our debt. And it wasn't just a nice debt. Here, here's a couple of dollars. No, this was a excruciating debt, a horrifying debt, a debt that caused pain, but he did so out of his love, granted he's right on that, that he loved, that God loves us, but he did so in order so that we would not have to experience his wrath at a literal, at a literal, in a literal hell. And so what Christ did on the cross was to get rid of that, to make payments so that we wouldn't have that as a possibility. We're told in Matthew 25 says, then they will say to those on the left, apart from me, you cursed into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Does that sound like a nice place to go to? Does that sound like a place where you know what? Rather than, okay, I'm not gonna force you to go to heaven. You can just go over here and set aside and inhale away from me. Does that sound like someplace other than, like the, does that sound like some not so good Airbnb to go to? Like, it's just a bad vacation spot. No, it's not. This is forever. It is tormenting. This is the place that's reserved for the devil and for his demons and for those who aren't in Christ. So no, God is not trying to just take the hell out of us. No, he's trying to make sure that we don't go to hell. Tim, I don't know how you're missing this. It's not that he wants to get all the bad out of us and get hell out of us. No, you have misunderstood what James is saying, but rather what he's saying, he's trying to make sure that we don't end up in hell. It cannot be that difficult and it's clear to most people, but here's the danger in what you're saying. When you make life of one thing and distort one thing, it's not you, it's not us that's doing, it's you that's distorting what the gospel is. You're making it seem as though our understanding of God is a distorted view that God is not just gonna come and wipe out people. Well, he is, he is. There's gonna, it's gonna be a horrible day. It's that great day that no one's gonna look forward to, but it's going to happen unless you are found in Christ. And the problem is, and this is why this is an issue, is because it's easy to take all the good that you've stated, all the good that you've done, all the good teachings, and there are some good teachings on the Bible project channel, there really are. But when you start adding a little bit of here, a little bit there, a little bit here, a little bit there, some distortions, what does the Bible tell us? A little leaven leavens the whole lump. And so it's easy now that if you want to start, and it's happened before, that if you want to start introducing different variances to the gospel, if you want to introduce a different gospel, because you've been right on 80% or even 90% of what you've talked about, this over here, this heretical teaching, this heresy, and make no mistake about it guys, this is heresy. This heresy is not looked at in the same vein because of all the good that you've done. It's like saying because Hitler loved his mother, because Hitler may have done a few good things, maybe he had a cat, maybe he helped go all the way across the street at some point in time, that that gets rid of all the bad that he's done. Well, that's how this stuff works. Do you think that someone like Jim Jones started off with heretical teachings? No. Do you think that Jim Jones started off that bad in the eyes of people? No. And so what happens is you stack up all the good and the sound teaching, and then we're supposed to ignore the heresy. No, that's not how that works. Especially when your heresy distorts the nature of God and what Christ came for in the first place. When you lessen what sin is, then you lessen the need for salvation. And so therefore, the teaching is heretical. Do you guys think that you ought to avoid a channel like the Bible Project? One second thought, yeah, you should.