 So I actually have a mic on me as well. Just to have everybody do that. Thanks everybody for joining us for the second half of today. We're going to have two panels coming up. And then we're going to take a little bit of a break. And then for those who are here in the room, we'll have a few projects that there'll be an opportunity to get hands on with some of the projects. Some of them have come up earlier in the day as well. And so there'll be an opportunity to interact with those, talk with the makers of those. A little bit more, especially as we're continuing to rack up challenges and potential and past failures for things. So first, we're going to talk a little bit about, and we're going to come at this from a couple different angles. We're going to be talking about the creator-technologist relationship, what it means to come into these partnerships, what it means to come into these forms of collaborations. There's a lot of people who may find themselves more on one side or the other, or definitely reliant upon somebody who might have more in-depth skills in one area or another. As we highlighted earlier in today, when we're even dealing with the theatrical process, it takes a lot of people to make that happen. And even at its core within the work that we're doing within Toaster Lab, we sort of essentially need to have three people. Somebody, myself, primarily focused on production elements. Justine, who primarily focuses on narrative elements. And Andrew on the development end. And the three of us working and knowing enough about what each other does and having an open line of communication is the teamwork that makes the dream work, or catalogs, failures in a really interesting way. And then we can bring in other people from that and sort of identifying the gaps of who needs to come into a project from that. But even us having a conversation about a project doesn't work without having multiple people in that conversation, especially when you're trying to create new, creative, collaborative work. And if you don't want to just either dictate something like a vendor-client relationship, when we come to the end of that, we're going to switch immediately over to the research creation process and talking about how that comes together and how these ideas of asking questions within the type of work that we're creating, whether or not the work itself is and the process is towards answering a research question or that there are various outputs of it that get disseminated in different ways than necessarily specifically artistic distribution, which is one of the things that is really interesting in working within this digital strategy fund realm is something that for those who are, especially Canadian research institution affiliated might be more familiar with within the SHERC model, the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, which has supported other projects before, but support work that's done in this research creation model where creative work is a research output and how these things bridge together and how they sort of become intrinsic as we're figuring out what these things are. Then we'll take our break here. Say goodbye to our friends from afar on HowlRoundTV and move into the hands-on demonstrations of things that are happening in the room here, a lot of which we'll also put out there as things that, for those that can be accessed by web, we'll have those links available as all this gets archived. Okay, so we're gonna jump right into this because I've yanked enough in putting this together. I'm just gonna bring everybody up. So, Julianne, where do you go? You're hiding right there. Come on up. I'm gonna do this for many reasons. My name is Julianne Saroy and I'm the art, not artistic, I'm creative producer of Small Stage and I just wanted to point out maybe my background which might give you a little bit of insight more into how I work and just understand my relationship to the creator technologist. So, I started out as a baby dancer. In fact, I went to York University with Patrick doing our undergrad in theater and dance. Patrick was in music and tinkled the ivories back then. Then I moved into stage management. I spent a lot of time in my career in stage management and touring over the years and this provided me with a long relationship with technology, how to make shows happen in different environments, different spaces and then eventually led me to sort of my practice got bigger than stage management and now I'm a creative producer of dance experiences, I call that. So, I just wanted to define for you more what that means for me as in my Small Stage, with my Small Stage hat on and because a lot of people are asking me what mixed reality is in, what is mixed reality and dance and how do I use it in my work, I'd say. So, I'm combining a lot of things all the time. I like to combine things and make them fit together. I use a lot of assets. When I make an asset, create a snowflake. I like to make it have multiple usages for it. So, this is a really big thing for me when it comes to reducing barriers and accessibility and using technology as that entrance point for people. So, I'm experimenting a lot with live and digital platforms to create dance and giving dance artists skills in digital platforms for them to create more work and in fact, we were also generously funded by the Canada Council Digital Strategies as well for that work in specifically digital literacy for dancers. So, this comes out of that methodology, in fact. And so, I'm really clear about what we're using it for when I create and so, this is really important to note that this is how I use technology and what I'm using it for. Create dance experiences that are maybe not new and innovative but are certainly using all the tools that we have to better link dance and audiences. I don't use the words users. I use audience when I talk. Bust down theater walls, bringing dances out of traditional theater spaces where personally I feel that there's lots of great dance companies doing those traditional models including Ballet BC who invite people into their space and that's not what I'm doing. I'm going out into the world and doing more site-specific work. So, that's a really important access issue for me. Reaching new audiences and building overall capacity is really important to me and my work. So, I just wanted to show you a little video quickly of a partnership that has actually developed with the Robson Street Business Association. Each year we've been doing something called Winter's Dance and here's a little video. I think if I hit this, it'll play. I don't know if you have sound. Can I turn it up? It's a great art and culture with a urban environment and making it accessible for everybody is at the heart of Winter's Dance. I don't know if anybody can hear it. Yeah? Okay. So, this is actually an activation on Robson Street in 2008, something to do with Robson Street. We got three different dance styles with this piece, a hip-hop dancer, a top dancer, and a contemporary ballerina. And then I built up each of these in terms of assets. Audience users. Live experiences were happening. Projection mapping on the side of a building. This is our fancy reception before opening. This is the top dancer who was on a gramophone. These are all the assets that we built, the snowflakes, that connects with the first augmented reality app that I built. The set pieces were also made of the same snowflake assets. These are lots of people talking about. A lot of people were actually experiencing dance live but also filming it on their phones for later viewing, I guess, which is really interesting to me. At the same time, they were also invited to download an app that they could, that we gave cards out for. And this I found extended the experience, the live experience in a different way. There you go, there's somebody that was using the app. So the app is still a really interesting tool that has extended this experience that happened almost a year and a bit ago. And I'm now understanding that children are just simply downloading the app in a different experience and I never imagined that would happen with this work. This past year, at Winter's Dance, the same installation, essentially, but a different year, we incorporated another layer, which was VR. VR was played as a projection inside our tent, our performance stage. And then I also published each song and posted them online as the cardboard experience for people to have as well. Again, it was a way to extend people's experience once they left the performance. You see various photos of the dancers performing inside the tent. That was basically a projection of our VR, what we made. In fact, so my husband actually made the VR experience for me and it triggered off of the music. There were different things that triggered off of actually Patrick's music that he provided for this project. And that's kind of, I think that's really the, I'm just gonna gloss over this and show you the experience that this was the first iteration of our app, that where we used motion capture. And Patrick's students, we were resident at the Digital Media Center and Patrick's students helped prototype the first app in dance and that's what it looked like. And then once I flipped it to a show experience that was informing and extending the show, the Winter's Dance, this is how it started to look. In AR. And our VR, and that's it, there you go, that's it. And there you go, that's it. And there you go, there you go. Thank you. Thank you. Perfect. Thank you. All right. We're gonna jump next. We're gonna go a little bit more towards the technology and come back and our other way around. So Hector, would you mind coming to the stage to share your presentation? Perfect, I'll get it set up for you. Hello everyone, my name is Hector Alsati. I have a little bit of a weird approach to where it comes to art and technology because I come from a totally different background. I have a background in engineering and most of my career I spent in the gaming industry as a technical director or like mechanics programmer and then I started shifting more towards design and experimental tech and art integrations and the Center for Digital Media was definitely a big part of that. So today I'm gonna show you a few different projects that I have worked on in the past. Both as a creator, used as a technical supervisor or like the dude that actually makes it happen and with collaborations with different types of artists. So the first one is really dear to me because it was a self-initiated project with a bunch of friends. How most experiences often start. We were just really bored at school over a weekend. We had a break and we thought that it would be cool to just go out on a hike and then we saw a flock of birds playing around and then we became mesmerized with the movements that we saw and then we thought, hey, wouldn't it be neat if we could create an experience that kinda could capture this and then bring it to a space and that's how we developed our first installation that we call BOIDS. So BOIDS is a flocking simulation that allows you to interact with a giant flock of birds. We have a site-specific installation that works with projection and motion capture where you can direct the group of birds to fly to wherever you point those towards but we also have an augmented reality app that allows you to create your own bird and then release it to the flock of birds. So, and this was showed at the festival, Carnival of Mixed Realities that we organized at the Central Union Foundation. So here you can see how people started like pointing at the wall and then they could see the birds fly on that cluster but it was a social experience as well because more than one person could jump in front of the screen and then the flock would start following them so you were kind of trying to steal each other's birds which was interesting social interaction that really brought people into it. That's one of those? Then I did a collaboration with Patrick on this project that started as an exploration of cybernetics or what the concept of cybernetics could mean and then we found a lot of work and a intensive body of working using these type of concepts in art. So what we found is it's that this type of definitions of a mathematical machine that would grab random input and then like interactions from the people and this has been done since the 80s and then it's been back into them. So an early work is this giant machine and this is actually the best image that you can find of this thing because back then cameras weren't that good where a piano performer would play a piece that would be interpreted by a machine and then it would be speed back into it through motion and sound. So then what we developed was the system called Colossus which is a virtual reality experience where we using brainwave data, we lead experiences that we add to the way that you're feeling. So it's kind of like a co-creation experiment with generative design and generative art where the music that Patrick designed was integrated in such a way that could be controlled and react to your brainwave trying to make you relax but at the same time if you were to relax try to bring you into focus. It was a large experiment into delving into different algorithms to process data or biofeedback for creative intent. So that was really interesting for me in terms of the technology that had to be developed in that regard and that's something that is true for art and technology and it's that the technology is not there already. So we have to develop it and go out there. At the end of this we ended up developing a plugin that anyone can download and integrate to use in Unity to create experiences that react to brainwave activity. So that was pretty neat. And the way that it works is that basically you as a person would be wearing the Muse 2 which is a headband that you just like wear here and tracks your brainwave data. And then that send the EEG and your heartbeat data that we then send to a laptop that was running experience that then rendered everything through a VR headset and a pair of headphones and that influenced you as well. So it was kind of like our reinterpretation of those early works in cybernetics and how we could merge the human with the machine and make everything one experience inside the same specific cycle. And then lastly, this one is part of the startup that I'm working on right now. I work with a company called Yumebo. We do a platform for geolocated as well dynamic streaming of experiences through AR. So this one is a collaboration that we're doing with a Japanese artist called Katsuya Terada. He is on the right of this picture on the boss is Wilson, our CEO and on the left is Takashi Murakami. So they are part of the same group of artists that co-created in their early career. So what we got from Katsuya was a set of 11 virtual reality sculpted statues. It was only the mesh. So like for those of you that are familiar with technology, we got them as an FBX format. So like literally use the geometry. That means it's kind of like use this structure and then we did all the work of texturing and making it look like this aging bronze statues that we could port into a mobile phone. Everything that we do works from iPhone 6s and above. So that means that we support nearly the 80% of the whole market in iOS only and then they correspond for Android. But the cool thing about this is that it's not only the statues, it's not only the thing that you can see in front of you. It's also that we have, similar to what you guys were developing at Tosula, we also have a map tool where you can put a series of experiences on specific GPS geofensive coordinates. Basically what it means is that you have to physically be there to actually access it. And then that collaborating with the artist we can place this artwork in specific places that are meaningful to the art piece. And not only that, but we can do so simultaneously on more than one spot. So this one we are probably gonna release it soon, like in the next couple months or so. I have been saying that for a couple months. But we're gonna release it here in Vancouver outside of his gallery in Japan, Tokyo and it's in a parking in LA. So it's gonna be like a simultaneous art journey. Then it revolves around what's reality and what's real. So definitely check it out when we actually publish it. So, but it's not only the statue itself, we also can create interaction. So we, coming from the gaming industry, for us interaction is a meaningful way to communicate in tank or a creative way to do storytelling where you don't only passively watch artwork, but you are engaged with it by interacting with it, right? So I'm gonna show you a little video of what that looks like. Oh, it's opening the website. That's very old UI, which I hate, but it works. And that is pretty much it for me. So today I brought for the show and tell afterwards. I brought the first six interactive statues from Katsuya Turada as well as the flock of birds that we developed both on augmented reality. So just like come hit me up and I'll show it all to you. Thank you. Thank you, Heather. I'm gonna ask Kendra Panconi to come up and join me. There she is. It's hard to see with all the lights. And we're gonna go decidedly analogue, except for, I'm gonna ask you to speak into one of these microphones for our friends at home. I thought. Just to say a few words about the only L. I'm sorry to hold this one. Thanks. I'm the last person who should be speaking to you. I was half an hour late because I couldn't work with Google Maps this morning. So I'm coming from a really different place in the conversation about augmented reality and virtual reality, but I'm kind of just here to talk about reality. Specifically about climate reality. Our company is called The Only Animal and we do work in part for solutionary outcomes to the climate crisis. And one of the things, I'm gonna assume you guys have some basic climate literacy because you're people and you're on Facebook and you open articles every once in a while. But for example, we talk a lot about the livable planet being 1.5 degrees Celsius temperature raise. Who knows where we are right now? I think we're at 1.1 right now. Who knows if we stay on the track that we're on how much the planet is meant to warm. We stay on the emissions track we're on. More than four. More than four in our lifetimes. So it is hard to live in a reality where everything that we're doing is connected with that, right? The IPCC report from the last one in 2019 said that in 2020 our emissions for a livable planet 1.5 degrees, our emissions have to that has to be the peak this year that we're in. We're in February of this year. This has to be the peak and then we have to begin a decline. So how do we create from that reality? I think a lot of us get super tight up in our individual carbon footprints. So do you know in line with a livable planet what an individual's carbon budget should be? What we're experiencing here is the failure in climate communications, right? We all know how to recycle because an incredible amount of effort went into training us how to recycle. But I'm here in a group of people. How many of you have graduate degrees? Raise your hands. And we don't know what an individual carbon budget is for a livable future. Somebody knows, who knows? So I think it's six. The number that I use is two tons because it does the global averaging but you're climate well educated, right? Because he's able to, like we're having the negotiation about well which set of data are you using? And for us to be useful in this climate reality we have to have this climate literacy to be able to have these discussions. It's so bizarre, I'm talking to you within this symposium about this. But let's keep going. So what is the carbon impact or what's the carbon usage for me to fly from Vancouver to London and back in tons? So it's two tons for a yearly budget for an individual. What is it to fly to London and back? Five tons. Now I am not here to inflict you with carbon guilt. We all have carbon guilt and that's not useful. It's useful for me personally to try to live in reality and I run a theater company. What is a theater company's carbon budget? Is a ridiculous question because companies don't get carbon budgets. Just humans, humans on earth, carbon based life forms get carbon budgets. But companies, ExxonMobil, the only animal do not get carbon budgets. They are part of my carbon budget. And the moment when I realized this totally turned my head inside out. I am sharing my carbon budget with my company. And we have one other part-time employee so it gets some of his carbon and I hire a bunch of contractors and gets teeny tiny bits of their carbon budgeting. But I'm so responsible and I think Ian is gonna speak about what the carbon impact of digital technologies are because it's not nothing. But I'm also here to present the idea that we should have 20% of our focus on our individual carbon footprint because we are not gonna get there by washing out our plastic bags. It is not gonna get us there. And 80% of our focus, these brilliant minds in this room is on creating systemic change. And when I'm looking at the wetsuit and protests that are going on, I am seeing how difficult it is to create systemic change. And I know that the people in this room are the good guys. I know that because I have done a lot of online dating recently. And the people who are not artists are really not worth talking to. It's you guys. It is you guys. I'm serious about this. And a real failure at online dating, but. So, on that. The list of failure. The list of Kendra Pankone's online dating. I'm so glad this is being broadcast. Swipe right on your screen right now, ladies and gentlemen. How do we contribute significantly to systemic change? So I am, as like the Climate Theater poster child of Canada right now, which is not a title that I feel like I come honestly to just one that I sometimes, the cap that I wear when I sit around the tables. But I'm in these conversations with the other people who are creating the climate narrative with scientists, with journalists, with academics. And what those, even faith leaders, leaders of organizations who work with newcomers to Canada, I'm in those conversations. And what they are all saying to me is we need the artists. How do we get artists? We need artists on our team because guess what's boring and depressing? Anything about climate. It is so hard to grapple with. Like I do it, like I open the article about whatever wildlife situation we're in or about IPCC or whatever. I start to read it, I start to panic and I just say I'm gonna leave that tab open on my computer and I'll get back to it later. Maybe you are braver than me. Maybe you read all the books and all the articles and are in action in your life in a way that is not in contradiction to that situation. But I find it a constant struggle because we have built a whole society as we know that ignores this. But as we know it will not be ignorable for long and by the time we get to the point that it is not ignorable it is too late. It is baked in. 2020 has to be our peak emission. How we create systemic change I think what I have figured out so far is you go to the area that intersects your passion, whatever it is, we're gonna lift a big thing together. We all have to find a place around the table to be able to grab on. Climate is intersectional. Climate justice and land rights and all of that is absolutely part of the climate narrative. And we need to get in, we need to. The only way forward that I see to live with that climate reality and as my reality, as the reality that I'm not blocking or denying when I'm doing my work is to start working with the organizations that are telling the climate story. Here are the kinds of things that they're coming to me and saying. We need artists on think tanks. We need artists working for activist organizations like David Suzuki Foundation, Nature Conservancy Canada, like SPAC, you name it. And we need to have artists in residency there. There needs to be art on every press release. There needs to be art at every press conference. There needs to be art attached to every petition. When I've been talking to DSF, one of the things they said to me is, am I taking too much time? So I don't, yeah. Okay, one of the things they said to me is we have a clean energy petition that's got 50,000 signatures in Canada. Can an artist help us to do something with that so that that petition doesn't just slide off a politician's desk and land in the trash? And I was like, yes, it's not hard. That's what we do. Like that's an amazing dance piece. That's an amazing fine arts piece. That's an amazing yada, yada, yada. If you're attracted to the protest movement, the protest movement needs art. Vancouver's protest movement is like really in need of us. If you're attracted to working with journalists, solution-based journalism is looking for artists to help tell the climate story. Because art does that thing of all, everything that we're seeing, all this delight, innovation, all of the things that attract us in that activate that raccoon sensibility that we have having opposable thumbs and also interested in shiny things, that we craft the way for people to receive the climate story. Because the people at David Suzuki Foundation are telling me it's just not working what we're doing. Fact-based approach is dead. We need arts-based approach. And that is all over environmental organizations in Canada. And I think there's room. I also think there's money. I think there's partnerships. And I think they are beating down the door to get to us. They don't know where we live. And we don't know where they live. Like, there's a little bit of investigation to do there. But I know that the people in this room, with all of the degrees that are in this room, can find them. And I think it's up to us to go and open those doors and start those conversations. I wanna work with you on your climate communications. Just that simple. Yeah. Hi, Karen, Julianne, and Kendra. I'm gonna make sure this doesn't go to stone. Join me here. Okay, so we've complicated this question a little bit. Because you came in and you thought that we were gonna be talking solely about the practicalities of interfacing between those working on the technology side and those working on the creative side. And those are also like, it's an artificial divide in and of itself as well. Actually, I wanna start with one other question. Just to sort of contextualize my next one, is that the thinking of it, because I think that the climate conversation as a great existential, the great existential crisis of our time is key. And to make good on what you've promised that I'd say, I will say that in working with other and other projects, not necessarily toaster lab projects, but where that does play a part into the way, the reason that we make what we make and the way that we make it. But working with right now, a project with the NAC on their the Cyclone Theater and Climate Change that bringing into the conversation that even when we try and do things like live streaming that or send an email or do all that coordination that it also has an impact. And so like releasing yourself from the ability to like completely correct for that and look at what you can contribute versus what you need to stop doing as a priority. I would like to ask in just a minute. Yeah. You should talk about that. It's not about me. I'm gonna make it about you for a second. Could you take one minute and just add, give us a little bit of information about what the type of work that the only animal makes. Yeah. We make immersive work with a deep connection with place. Often that means site specific work, often elemental work, often in wilderness locations. I live on the Sunshine Coast and so I'm more wild, feels like suburbian now to me, but in a more wild context. We also have created work with AR actually in the past that there was a whole stream of work that went down that way. More recently in a more climate conscious form, we've decided to be a no fly company after my last trip to the UK and grappling with those numbers. We felt like that was the ethical choice and the other kind of production-based approach that we have right now is that we're a buy-nothing new company. And that felt like the right choice for us, given our context. We've always been a company that made impossibly large work, so we have never relied on our touring again, so like no carbon guilt because we could do this. We were placed in a way where we want to be hyper-local and really rooted to the places that we live. Yeah, no, no, it's perfect and it helps me bridge to the next question because we're talking about a couple of different barriers to collaboration here, which I'd like to open up to everybody and then hopefully to a couple of questions. Is this question of these interfaces that we find ourselves of that in some way is like we're all people, but some of us find ourselves more in pushing forward the creative, maybe artistic side of it if we would take on that label, maybe the non-technologist side of it we're intersecting with technologists, we're intersecting with climate scientists. How do you find yourself in each of your practices sort of like starting to bridge this divide? You got to this a little bit Kendra. I might turn it to Hector and Julianne first. I actually think this is an access issue and I look at it in terms of the access and I was really curious about the questions you were asking earlier Kendra in terms of like access to, I interpret it as like access to the arts. So if we're gonna have conversations about climate and really bridge those gaps between technologists and artists and in fact artist and general pop, public actually is and speaks to we need more artists in different collaborative processes in different sectors, but that my interpretation and my sort of spin on it is access, like breaking down those theater walls, like not making work exclusive for people who have to go into a theater for like the message of like I do work in site-specific ways as well and on the street, like anybody can come and see that, the messages that people take home with them are key to perpetuating our work as artists as messaging it in a particular way entry points into that before we bash anybody on the head, they have to like see what we're doing first and then go along on the journey with us and so how we tell stories, how we create experiences is about that too. Particularly for me, I find that saluting people or like that's actually part of the problem with educational system that we're like, okay, you're an engineer, you're an artist, you are this, you are that, kind of put you in these blindfolds about the things that you should or should not care about and then kind of like diminish the impact that other areas can actually have in society as a whole. So for me, I'm kind of somewhere in the middle, like I'm in a bit of a big transition and then like not only being able to collaborate with other people and other causes that are relevant to you and to the people around you, but also being able to take the leap and be, you know what, maybe I'm interested in this specific aspect of technology and nowadays we have such a vast resource network in terms of what you can learn and what you can do online or the type of people you can get connected with in order to collaborate. You take a leap of faith and start using different and new emerging media in order to communicate these type of messages because in our society we are used to a very high amount of information or like stuff that gets thrown at you and then coming from the gaming industry, I know the tricks that we use to get you to keep engaged and like hook into your phone, just like come back into this and this is based on cognitive psychology and like behavior is seen from the 80s with like skinner boxes and different techniques that now are commonplace in the gaming industry. So there's like a whole ethical debate in that part but the thing is that we grab all of those things that we know about interaction and experience design and human psychology and we put that to the service of science evocation or like awareness for different social issues, particularly in the streets where it touches people not where like people have to like take that leap and just like, okay, I'm gonna go to this specific place to get educated because that's after they already know that they wanna learn about that, right? It's just like literally putting it out there and getting people enticed, right? Just like trying to like hook them in and to get that we really, really need to steer down all those barriers and collaborate with people from different mindsets and be willing to grab different pieces or like different techniques ourselves. Can you wanna add anything before leaving him? I'd like to open that up. Are there questions? All right. Well, I think we're across the stage where access to information is the limit. It's really how can we make people care about it and act on it and so in a way, I mean, that's how I use virtual reality in my classroom. So right now in the class that each basically all the students have to do VR virtual reality projects designed to create experiences that really address climate change and not in terms of, okay, yes, information about it, you can find that online. The question is what would be an experience that actually gets you to not fly or fly less or whatever, switch to Sky Train instead of driving your SUV kind of thing. So I think, and this is really where we need to bring all the different disciplines together so I totally agree with the point. Like, we need the arts, we need the scientists, we need the experience designers. There's hardly any field that we don't need to achieve this. It's, Ken, you and I were talking about this during the lunch break too, and we've talked about it a bit before but some of the origins for the way that we work at Toaster Lab and our entrance into mixed reality came actually out of doing work that was interested in remote environments that were threatened by climate change and looking at how performance interacted with places that were to be disappearing and then what are the tools that would allow someone to either experience them at a different time or place so that you could increase impact there and that's what drove us to the tools of it. So it's something that I think is an intrinsic conversation about how do we sort of open up those spaces. I wanna add a question onto that because you mentioned, Kendra, you mentioned how hard it was to tour the only animals work and I know that we've experienced that in our projects that like touring them means recreating them and there's no such thing as to tour. You do it again someplace else from scratch and Hector, you're launching something that's gonna be in multiple sites, Julian, you'd have the project that is tied to a specific place and I'm wondering about what sort of the potentials and also limitations that you see with those, that sort of like interaction of some technology that allows people to experience something asynchronously like you can come to it at a different time or perhaps experience some of it from a different place and your attachment to place and sort of how those drive, that sort of duality drives the decisions around the work in Kendra, too. Oh, no, no, go for it, please. I just wanted to sort of say that I toured with Crystal Pye, her dance company for more than 12 years internationally and nationally and these issues of carbon footprint weren't being talked about during those days and it's very challenging to think about that time and then in contact to your question about how do we recreate and site specific work and all this and I think that we're still struggling with that, like how do you create a lot, like my form is really a live experience. So what does that mean to technology? How does that transfer into like where are our markets? Is a big question we have to answer as well, opening up different markets for our work? Maybe it isn't touring anymore, maybe it's experiencing a show in a VR space that could actually tour and replace a live experience or replace something else that we pass along. But I'm still struggling with that point, like how to create in the space that you're talking about and how to cross-pollinate with other communities, other artists in those communities and share ideas is really like a fundamental thing that we would do back in the day with touring that is really important to think about as we move forward in this technology world as well. So I don't know if I answered but I'm certainly thinking about these things in a different context. Right, for me it's like you have to keep looking at what's gonna come, right? And if you look around at everything that's happening in the development of technologies like the HoloLens, the Magic Lib and like now we have a billion phones that are capable of doing augmented reality like and everyone in the past is in their pockets, we are at a point where we can easily communicate experiences, not only content, right? It's like you can communicate stuff that people can interact with and experience in totally new novel ways and that comes at a risk. There's a few very interesting examples of what is topic future like that would happen. Augmented reality glasses and then you see a bunch of ads and everyone is trying to sell you something but I feel like part of that conversation and to answer that specific question it's our decision because we as creators, as designers, we choose intentionally how we use the media, right? And for example in my work, the social interaction and being with other people in the space is very important. So whether that is site specific interactive installations or augmented reality exhibits that have social features or something that you experience in public, it becomes a matter of choice. So you would use blue where you want blue in a painting or you would use red when you want red in a painting, right? So it's kind of using that as a design language or being intentional with the choices that you do in terms of developing these experiences for the future, being aware of what's gonna happen and how that's gonna shape like future experiences that are going to occur next year. When we decided to become a no-fly company, it was a decision that was, it was an intense amount of grief to let go of that. And but what I had to reckon with is the belief that it's here already, that the community is here with which to create our work, that the people are here to experience our work and that we don't need other people in other places. And that hyper locality has for us made us dig much more deeply into our community to look for the lighting designer that we always brought from Regina, the director we wanted to hire from Toronto and just go, okay, those options are off the table, what is here? And it has led to an intense and dedicated commitment to discovering more in our community. It's just like in my personal life, I'm not gonna take my kids to Mexico. So, well, where haven't we gone that's within the range of my electric car? Like, do I really know what's on Vancouver Island? Have I explored this and that and the other? And it's given me a new relationship place to go, it's all here, let's discover what's here. And so there's been a profound gift in those things and I still rely on the digital world for a lot of inspiration. I feel like that is like inspiration connectivity ideas. And then that I can disseminate the idea of hyper locality when people call me and say, can you come to Ottawa and talk, blah, blah, blah. I can say, no, but I know someone in Ottawa who's doing that work. And you're much more likely to continue that work if you talk to that person in Ottawa who you can build a real time relationship with. And I feel like even as the digital technologies get better and we wanna use the heck out of all of the abilities of like all of our board meetings happen on Zoom because we just have decided that our board is a national board because we need some of that intelligence. So we want to use those kind of tools to the best of our ability, but not, we want to use them in a carbon conscious way. Knowing that we're at time, I'm gonna thank our panelists for sharing your work and your comments. And we'll take one moment right now to switch over to our third and final panel for the day. Thank you. I'm delighted to introduce the next panel. Aziz, thank you so much everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.