 TLO what's poppin? We are on twitch. We are Not live but you can leave a like comment subscribe turn on your post notification bells. Let's continue to grow a family From Chicago to the UK right behind me. You see it this little warning screen just in case they say something crazy But you know, I can't help it. I'm hearing the name of the media the press Don't forget man twitch.com the lit one. Do you see the username at the bottom of the screen if you want to lock in with us? And watch some live streams. We also got a patreon That's the merch. I mean patreon. That's Monday through Friday. We miss a day. We roll it into the weekend And we got merch don't forget that man. Let's get into this and this is Lad Bible TV copyright disclaimer under section 107 of the copyright act 1976 Allowance is made for fair use for purposes such as criticism comment news reporting teaching scholarship and research Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing non-profit educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use No copyright infringement intended all rights belong to their respective owners. It's lab Bible TV How I care for serial killers at high security hospitals How you care for them? Okay? What will you like as a child when and did you always have an interest in the way people's minds work? Well as a child. I really enjoyed reading detective stories. Agatha Christie Was what I used to take out from the public library with my mom when we went every week I really enjoyed those kind of murder mysteries and there's still something that I enjoy But in terms of real cruelty and real violence I think I was very influenced as a young woman by the early accounts of the Holocaust as We learned more and more about the Holocaust. It was clear that Ordinary people and ordinary governments had actually done something to a subgroup of the population of the citizenry who were entirely innocent and they had been tormented and then killed and How did that happen? How did that come about in a country that had a government an elected government? That was famous for its music its poetry its prose its culture generally How could that is 100% the same? And the way she's explaining it that's how it differs from slavery like there was an act of government that allowed this to happen For the people that were inside of their governed area. It's crazy RIP taught us put lives lost That have been so I was interested in how people come to let themselves do terrible things And I was also interested in the kind of philosophical aspects of it about how should we judge people who've done terrible things When they were actually not themselves at the time when they really weren't well, how should we judge them? How should we react to them? It wasn't really the violence in itself so much that I was interested in and how did your career in forensic psychiatry begin? Well, when I started working in forensic psychiatry, I was working in South London in an outpatient service And then in the early part of my career There was a government policy to develop more secure kinds of psychiatric services So I worked in what was then called a medium secure service and then after that I went to work in a high-secure hospital the one that's probably best known is Broadmoor Hospital and that's where I We of course know what Broadmoor Hospital is man We've done a documentary or two a high-security psychiatric hospital in England built in the Victorian era and Hone some of the UK's most violent offenders W reading feels by the little one by the way I went to work first as a junior trainee and then as a consultant My first visit to Broadmoor was when I was still training and I guess like most people I had kind of ideas of it being a weird and strange and frightening place and Certainly the pictures that are often taken of the 19th century buildings kind of gave a kind of horrific kind of look or Something kind of dank and frightening But when I actually went to visit there What you saw within the walls was really a very typical psychiatric hospital with lots of buildings Which house the places where people sleep and then buildings where people go to do Occupational therapy or psychological therapy It's a very modern building and doesn't look anything like the kind of 19th century Images of Victorian asylums that people get so kind of find so creepy The only thing that marks it out really is that it has extra security the other Like a prison dorm but I wouldn't be I wouldn't be as I Would be worried but like I'd be more worried in a psychiatric or to be sharing the space with so many people that's just me and my Regular train of thought Hospitals don't have and the other thing is that probably most of the all of the people there have done something Frightening and violent often fatal violence. I read that you and you happen to meet Peter Sutcliffe Well, I think it would be fair to say that he was pointed out to me once I mean even within Broadbould mr. Sutcliffe was unusual. There were two things that were kind of striking about that One is just the fact that people went to the bother of pointing him out as if that was going to tell me anything You know, oh look, they're so and so And you know so what but also that was the thing is that really nothing happened, you know, I didn't I just saw a man I just saw a middle-aged man I didn't see anything there was nothing to see and I think that's a really important aspect of forensic psychiatry That when you work with people who've done terrible things, you know, it's not necessarily there in their face or their body There's nothing to see you Really have to spend quite a lot of time especially the jack Ripper dude. I heard he was like very unassuming You wouldn't even I'm talking to people before you can kind of get at the states of mind that lead to Causing great cruelty and harm to others What happens in the sessions in your therapy room? Well the therapy sessions that happen in a prison or a secure hospital are pretty much like therapy sessions Anyway, if you're at the beginning of therapy, you're often Having conversations that get people used to the process of talking about themselves and that can take a while Many people I meet are not accustomed to talking about themselves at all many people I meet at the beginning of therapy have never Really thought about their minds and feelings is something they could talk about so often the beginning of therapy is just getting that laid down and then and then we move in often to talking about how they come to be either in hospital or in prison and I Usually let people get there themselves, but sometimes it's very clear. So for example, I'm thinking about a man who I work with in prison I was asked to see him because he was very suicidal He had committed some very serious acts of self-harm and had been in the hospital wing of the prison because we were everyone was so worried that he was self-harming and he was a man who had been convicted of joint enterprise Murder, which is to say although he actually hadn't Carried out the fatal blow He had been part of the people who were there and so he got convicted of joint enterprise I hope y'all listening man. Just because you ain't do it Don't mean you're not gonna get that same conviction if you was there as murder And he found this very distressing you guilty by association in the streets and in that in the courthouse Partly because he'd never been in trouble with the police before And he was somebody who was a kind of regular guy And it was probably something to do with the drug deal that went wrong. I think Well, that's what he said anyway but he found himself he found doing a life sentence in prison was very distressing and When I saw him He we were really focusing Therefore on his sense of what was driving these suicidal feelings and what was driving the suicidal feelings was his feelings of guilt Partly his guilt about the homicide that somebody had died and you know He was a young man and another young man had died and which he felt bad about But also he felt guilty about the impact on his family and the victim's family and the suicidal feelings were coming from a sense of Terrible guilt. So in that case talking about the homicide was kind of central Is it weird that I don't be feeling guilty for nothing like nothing like I don't be having no guilt zero Part of it is because how I am as a person I wouldn't do nothing to nobody that I wouldn't You know, I'm saying that I didn't wouldn't want done to me. So I don't be feeling no real guilt The only guilt I'd be having is when I have to raise my voice at my daughter. That's it But before that You can convince me to feel guilty No, sir I never really felt no stress Until I have my daughter. I never felt any of these emotions for like X amount of years until up to three years ago Like none of them none Wow, the ice box talking to tell me To the work. So I had to know what I didn't understand emotions like when like if I had a girl She was sad about something Be like, what are you sad about like get over it like What is being sad gonna do like I don't know I couldn't relate to any of What happened See that's why God gave me a daughter. I got it. Oh, I got it. I got it kind of And I had to get him to talk about it in order for me to kind of work out what had happened But also more crucially so I could understand what he thought about it But you have to work up to that you can't just go barreling in and say right Let's talk about this type this day. You killed somebody, you know, you have to be careful about these things And you have to use language very carefully. You have to time your kind of inquiries and questions In a really thoughtful way, it's a bit like kind of doing surgery on the mind in a way How much detail do people tell you about the crimes they've committed the murders often not very much Because in my experience, it's quite distressing for people who've killed to talk about that and So it's rare for people to go into detail At least initially and often that's because of traumatic memories. I mean again one of the things that people often don't appreciate Is that people who kill sometimes develop PTSD in relation to the homicide that they actually caused So they have traumatic memories. They have flashbacks. They can have flashbacks to the blood that was present the smell of the blood They can have flashbacks to the sound that the victim made They can have flashbacks to what they did afterwards and how they were feeling And it's not all unusual people But like I've been shot at before You know, I've been in a lot of life-threatening situations and the only time I've ever had PT I got jumped by 30 people and was hospitalized for a week or week and a half I've never had no PTSD about that. I don't think like like other people around me have Like family and stuff, but like I rarely think about it I It is what it is because I know what was going on in that time of my life. They don't but I know What is there to think about? But now being being being shot at I have PTSD about that 100% I Not now but like When it happened like after for a year maybe two years after Has it been two years? For at least a year after I used to think about it And no, you know what until I moved out of Chicago. I thought about it Because before that happened I always went around with my you know, I'm saying my little tool on me But after oh, you couldn't convince me to go nowhere without that thing on me and an extra You know, I'm saying like I couldn't do it Couldn't do it any type of crazy noises and cars like tires screeching anything Like any like people look at like, you know how people double-take if somebody double-take that me like I'm What are you looking at? sketchy situation But like now to have nightmares about doing so and that's particularly so in cases where either where they were mentally ill grossly mentally unwell when they killed or people who kill in a kind of Malignant passion for example people who become convinced that their partner is unfaithful to them and a big quarrel erupts And they grab a knife and they stab somebody Never I can never because I wouldn't I don't care Like I care but not that to that extent And then afterwards they're just kind of horrified by what they've done And usually first thing they do is then ring the police and say You know, you better come around. I've killed my wife And then they're just standing there waiting for the police and And that can be the stuff of nightmares if they do you try and get rid of the body or bury the bodies That's something that you talk about with them getting rid of a body is very difficult dead bodies are extremely heavy So you need someone to help you But if you get someone to help you that kind of raises a serious problem So for example cutting up a body seems absolutely horrific and monstrous but people I've met who've cut up a body have Said kind of quietly that it was a practical solution to the problem and again people who do that are usually In a slightly odd state of mind When they do it they're kind of dissociated a bit from reality It's if it's like a to do that and then just go on with your days red for dream That's what some people say You've worked at Broadmoor for a large part of your career and what types of patients do you normally come across? You can't get admitted to Broadmoor unless you've carried out the kind of violence That's very frightening and disturbing to other people and we see a lot of people who've killed Family members when they were mentally ill and I worked a lot With people who'd killed in that way and in fact together with some excellent colleagues of mine We set up a therapy group for people who killed Which was called not very imagined for the homicide group and our homicide group met every week to allow people to come and talk about their experience of having killed and what it had done to their lives and what they felt about it now and the impact it had made on not only of course the people that they killed but their extended family and friends and The loss of their own life from the past at the beginning of groups like that people often talk about what it means to have killed somebody and One of the things that our people are often preoccupied by is what makes them different from soldiers? We see soldiers as kind of Lissot and even admirable people because of the social context But when people who are mentally ill kill then they are seen as being monsters or weird or bad and that Kind of stigma around killing I think is very hard to live with and it's not that people Try and kind of see themselves as victims They don't but they do Sometimes struggle with the sense of being hated and have any of your patients experience that feeling So I'm thinking now about somebody who had a long history of mental illness and she had religious delusions And she developed the delusion that she was being persecuted by the Antichrist and she then extended that belief To include people who were working in the care home where she was living. She was living in a mental rehabilitation Hostile And very sadly she developed a belief that one of the care workers there was an Antichrist and She believed that she was in danger from this person And Eventually she thought about it for some time That's what's so sad about it because she knew it was wrong But the grip of the delusion was so strong That eventually she went down and she grabbed a knife and she killed this man and afterwards She was very distressed Me personally I can't do that type of work. We used to have an Audi home where I used to live I used to live like like kind of like Rogers Park. This is the north side of Chicago and like like right on the edge of the The first suburb going north is called Evanston. So I used to live like It's called the low end. No, it's called the south end south end of Evanston. So Right there like on the border So I used to live there used to be a Audi home like super close Like there's a corner store you walk to the corner store the Audi home was like right across the street from it Like the mental it's like a not an Audi home. I'm sorry. It was a mental Mental hospital, but I used to be terrified. I was a child keep them I used to be terrified to walk past there because of what she's saying like you don't never like no offense Like I don't want to judge nobody don't take nothing to heart or anything, but you don't know what Especially as a child, I don't know What is going on and I don't know the I don't have a full grasp on Mental illness at this time. So I don't know what's going on in their head I don't know if they're looking at me for ten minutes thinking I'm something like like what she said that the anti-crack I don't know. I would avoid that place at all I'm crawl I crossed the street and think about my godbrother used to live next door to the place But he had they had like ten dogs ten pit bulls Like it was like you're not going over there I think that's the reason they had so many dogs low-key But like I used to try to avoid it at all cost Simple as that I'm very suicidal And that's how I met her because she was transferred from prison to Broadmoor this was when we still had women in Broadmoor. We don't anymore And when I met her She was still very psychotic still very paranoid still very deluded about there being anti-christ everywhere But she knew that she had done something to yeah, I was hyper paranoid Very I don't have that no more, but I was Overly paranoid after getting shot at Paranoia and the lifestyle I was involved with so it's like double bubble like you got to be like We're like I feel like a lot of people in Chicago. I might need some mental health health as a mental health assessments Terrible not like not that they were born with it because like just being there You could develop And she felt terrible about it was circumstance and she knew that she Somehow had to come to terms with what she'd done But she didn't know how it's very uncommon for people with mental illness to kill Extremely uncommon. I mean lottery winning uncommon. It's so rare But of course when it does happen then although family members are actually initially most at risk It's also possible for people with mental illness to kill strangers when they're grossly mentally unwell and it's actually In it's slightly more likely that they will attack Strangers and in fact we've had a very recent case and nottingham Where a man who was grossly mentally unwell? Killed in what we would technically call a kind of spree killing Over but he wasn't getting no type of help was he he was just outside Period of 12 18 hours and And in that he killed three strangers and nearly killed three others so And he's been sent to mental hospital for treatment But you know in that state of mind It's very likely I mean I don't know the man and not met him But from what I've read about him and from my experience of not dissimilar cases I think he was probably extremely paranoid and believed that his only way of surviving was to Protect himself from all the people who I imagine he located danger in He saw them as dangerous in a way that we could only describe as completely mad and Irrational and delusional he was so paranoid he went to MI5 to the MI5 building and asked for help Which is kind of as good an indicator of mental irrationality as I know Okay They see one person and Are you delusional? Can I just walk? You know I'm saying like Everybody's this type of person to them They're all sad stories. I mean they're all really sad stories. It's that's why it's it's never about Evil it's about Sadness really and grief Have any of your patients ever attempted to leave or kind of run away or escaped Broadmoor? I think one of the things that again that maybe people don't realize is that the vast majority of patients in Broadmoor are keen to accept help and therapy and They want to stay there. It's a terrible situation That some people don't get the treatment that they need until they've done something Awful and horribly violent that if only they got the treatment before they might not be in this situation Actually, you're making me think of a man. I know was working with last year who said to me I'm not glad to be in Broadmoor, but I'm grateful And what's the most shocking Thing you've ever heard or case you've ever dealt with I think the most disturbing people I meet other people who Deny any responsibility For what they've done and blame other people So they don't really, you know, if only somebody helped me properly mental illness and narcissism are those two are those Are those two separate things or is that one thing? mental illness Are narcissists mentally ill? That's a solid question It's more about no No, I'm a good person The victim was a bad person these kind of things. I think those are the cases which I find Disturbing because it's hard to know How to engage with people who are in denial of reality The kind of situations Funnily enough where I meet this now Is not so much in the criminal courts, but sometimes in family courts Where parents are accused of Assaulting or hurting their children And I quite often meet men and women Who clearly have hurt their children But can't accept it and deny it And either say it wasn't them or they blame somebody else Or sometimes It's hard to think accountability when you out here do our stuff wrong with your kids, man When you're going overboard and things of that nature and disappointing or just doing weird stuff, you know, I ain't gonna say so But yeah, I know what I'm talking about Sometimes they blame the child Blame the child And that's kind of disturbing Have you ever been scared or frightened? Have I ever been scared or frightened? Not in broad more Sometimes in prisons Sometimes in prisons I mean, the The place where, which is most unsafe, is the community So actually the places where I've been assaulted Have nearly, nearly all been in outpatient clinics Where people who've been in very disturbed states of mind Often because they're intoxicated Have come in to a clinic and been very angry with me for some reason or other And assaulted me in those circumstances And often that happens very fast and you don't have time to be scared So part of my training as a forensic psychiatrist is about trying to read those cues And it's my responsibility not to put myself in any danger Because I don't want the people I work with to get in any more trouble I feel like every day having that type of job is going to put yourself in some degree of danger They're already in How do you kind of deal with sitting in a room with people that, you know, lots of people would say are monsters? I kind of feel that How do I know that this couldn't have been me? That in the right circumstances Maybe I could do something just as bad as this Who's to say that if I The scariest part of like this see situations like this Like anybody could have a mental break a mental lapse and do something that that that that That is deemed That will that the court will say oh, he wasn't in his right mind. Like it could happen to anyone See, that's why that's why we stay drug-free Because these things mess with your mental mental It mess with your brain. It makes such a functionality and like Too much of anything Is gonna mess with your brain man. It's gonna mess with who you are as a person But just like like and I say too much of anything. I'm doing too much stress Too much stress to click it up like that too. That's why I be you know what I'm saying I don't know why that's why I never really felt stressed but But hey Salute I had not been through some of the things that these people have been through and I have to say some perpetrators of serious violence Have experienced terrible violence themselves facts facts circumstances of players. There's circumstances in your life Will bring like play a big huge part This is children So who's to say if I had been through what they'd been through as a child and if I'd Had serious addiction problems and develop serious mental illness Who's to say that I might not have killed somebody too? So I kind of start from the position That I may have more in common with this person than first appears And as a society how much empathy do you think we should have for people that commit serious acts of violence? I think That it's very understandable That we all feel hurt and distressed and outraged when somebody Commits an act of terrible fatal violence. Of course we all feel outraged I feel that outraged too And I don't want to minimize in any way the distress that victims and victims families feel And in fact, it's a very important part of the work that we do is we always keep The victims and their victims families in mind when we're doing this work It's not a question of either the offender or the victim. It's both But what I will say Is that I think revenge although a very natural and human emotion Is an emotion that we can't afford It's too costly It's too costly I agree People who seek revenge and go for revenge normally are the ones that get caught You know what I'm saying? They're like the chances of you seeking revenge and not getting caught are very slim Terms of our psychological well-being. It's not good for us to be vengeful Does things to you actually could take you to a place where you kill if you're that vengeful But it's also too Too expensive Financially we currently have I don't hold grudges or anything if I'm gonna do something It's gonna be in that moment You know what I'm saying and even in the moment I can take a step back from the situation and think You know I'm saying now that I'm older, you know saying when I was young couldn't do it But like now I can take a blood back See what's going how this is might play out I was 60 people on whole life tariffs that means they will die in prison And we could still keep people constrained and detained and contained But we don't have to keep them in prison to the day they die And what do you love about your work? Well, it's just so interesting Every single day is different It's both interesting intellectually, but it's also interesting philosophically, you know, what is the difference between a Nazi prison guard who kills a prisoner and a man who kills his wife because he believes she's unfaithful to him What's the difference between these two men? They've both killed. Are they in any way similar? Are they different? If so, how why? I I find it philosophically fascinating But I also think What I love about my work is that it's real It's real. This is real And the emotions are real And that's a privilege To get up close and personal with real human beings who are in an extraordinary situation So Yeah, I think it's a privilege to do the work Very interesting Very interesting, man. I want my question answered in the comments. Are narcissists mentally ill? Talk to me. See you later. Leave your like comments and subscribe to our channel. We'll go