 The Nigerian Police Service Commission has suspended Aba Kiari and that's because U.S. court documents have linked him to self-confessed internet fraudster Hosh Poppy. We'll be discussing police reforms and corruption in the Nigerian police with a police reform advocate this morning, Mr. Bosindi Haripe, who joins us from River State. Good morning, Mr. Haripe. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me on your show this morning. All right, let's first get you assess the situation regarding the DCP and Aba Kiari and Hosh Poppy. With those court documents linking them and the allegations of corruption. Well, assessing, if you ask me to assess the situation, I will tell you that that is an everyday situation in the Nigerian police. It's an everyday situation of the officers and men of the Nigerian police. It's just that that Aba Kiari has just been brought to the public light because of the internationally celebrated Hosh Poppy. However, that is not to take away the fact that the same officers also do very good jobs. It's just that as they do, when you do 100 good jobs and you do one bad work, the bad one will always come back to country. And that's why we've been on the advice side and telling them that they must serve and ensure that their hands are all times clean and nothing is linking them to corrupt practices such as that of the suspected cases of the Aba Kiari and Hosh Poppy relationship. So I think it's a normal day in the Nigerian police. You understand me? If Nigerians are to start giving you details of account numbers, the transport money to analog that to police officers for warning, this activity or the I'm not sure any police are to start with. Well, if you do a good job and you take kickbacks while you're doing that good job, it almost doesn't feel like you've done anything that you should be praised for. And I think we should also get that straight. That for every time that the police officer has to take bribe in order to do his job, it should not be recorded as being a good job. And I don't think anybody should be called a super cop if your career is tainted with stories of bribe taking and the likes. But I want to speak on the main focus this morning which is being able to reform the police to a state where we're able to fight corruption in the police force. What do you think is lacking in that regard? Is it lack of accountability, lack of proper systems or just lack of honesty in the whole police force? Okay, there's two things I think you should understand before you reform the police. There's a force who are extremely deep into this reform and security activities in the country. There's something personally I have discovered and I think it's correct. Though it's a hypothesis because it's coming from me, it's not yet a fact. But if you reason with me, you may see it as a fact from your head, but from my end it's a hypothesis, just what I'm thinking. Now, what am I saying? First of all, I believe that the current condition of the Nigerian police, the federal government like it. They like it because it takes away attention from what is happening at the federal level, government level, and puts all the corruption charges on the Nigerian police, therefore leaving the government to break. That's one too. I want you to know that the Nigerian police is properly reformed and they are properly of standard and they carry out their job as it should be as world police on the standard of world police. I want you to know that the federal government will suffer because once our police is no longer corrupt and they are now straightforward, they will now begin to ensure that every corrupt people in government are brought to book. You understand me? So the government will definitely suffer and I'm not sure Nigerian government has grown to that level of maturity to allow a system to be 100% free of corruption. They will allow that system to still have something they can hold them to. So I'd like to hold the federal government accountable to the corruption in the police. Then if you want to reform the police now, number three, what we will be doing to begin that reform is first of all to look at their retirement plan. When an officer knows that where he retires, he has nothing to go back home to and even for him to be able to push the files for his retirement document to begin to assess his pension, which is next to nothing, he still has to begin to bribe the same organization and the same people he worked with for them to enable him to push his file for it to get to what he's supposed to get, which is actually next to nothing. Now when he's on the job, he tries to work for his retirement and that is what will give account for the good level of corruption we see because the officers are working for both their current job tenure and they are also working for their retirement because they do not have faith in the retirement system of the police force as well as their pension system. Now, how do you equate this when somebody does not have a hope when he missed the job? So while he's on the job, we like to gather everything we can gather and this is how the ocean starts. That is what we need. But is that justified, Mr. Aikbe? We understand where you're coming from to say you even made a statement that you would blame the corruption and the police force on the federal government. I went on to talk about these structural issues regarding lack of retirement plan and all that. But is that a justification for being corrupt? Now there is no justification for any form of corruptness. In fact, if you ask me to come down to Lagos, maybe I work with Plus TV for example and you ask me to come down to Lagos this morning and you send me maybe a transport fare to come down to Lagos and I pay the transport fare on my way to Lagos and I decide to branch and see my brother in Ocean State somewhere and then it cuts into the working time and then I come back and then I tell you I'm sorry I'm coming this late. I had to spend a day extra. I'm sorry it was because I had to keep taking the flight. I wouldn't have been here. I would have been here earlier. I wouldn't have had time to brand. But because it's a bus, we had to stop over in Ocean State to go see my brother and that was why I came here. That is not an excuse. Yes, flight would have been better to bring me directly to Lagos. But it's not an excuse. So corruption is not justifiable by any excuse. It's also important to note that these people are aware of this salary structure before they even enter the force. So corruption is not an excuse. But however, what I'm saying is that when you want to reform something, you must consider all your loopholes. And these things I mentioned this morning are part of the loopholes. Now when these loopholes are tackled, then you can now say you are reforming. First of all, what is the reform? Reform. It means the same is in form already, but you want to return it again to a better form. So if you want to make something better, you look for all the excuses that make it not better, which is what I was at line before you cut into come. So I am not justifying corruption in any means. I'm not saying that if nobody fits you and nobody trains you and then you go to the Tom and Amruba that is the society's fault, that is your family fault. No, an Amruba is an Amruba. What I'm saying is that the society will have been able to do better and they should do better to minimize people having these excuses. But it doesn't mean if you have it, it is a fault of the society. No. So I do not justify corruption by any means, but I'm telling you, we're talking about reforming the police. These are some of the steps that needs to be taken. Then two, that was, I'm sorry, I said three. Now four, moving forward, a lot of people joining the Nigerian police life or talking of reform. They are joining the Nigerian police force because there is no job in the country. So they are not joining the Nigerian police force because they want to serve. They are joining the Nigerian police force because they want to make a living. They want to make money, not service, money. The security agencies are places where people go to serve, not with the mindset of making wealth, but with the mindset of service, you understand me? But now people join the police force because that's the only option they have. They don't have jobs. They wouldn't want to join, but they don't have jobs. So let them just join the force and make money. They are aware that the salary is nothing, but let us just join, since there are other ways we can make money in the force. So immediately they join. You see people hustling to be in tactical teams, hustling to be in this place, hustling to be posted to criminal areas, even working their posting, making sure they go to lucrative places where they have options of making extra money. In fact, to most police officers, the salary doesn't matter. It is the extra money that they are now after. Why are they after the extra money? It was because the system was not taking care of them. All right, so Mr. Rangpa, there was no proper plans for their welfare when they retire. So now, if you allow me to just random this. Yeah, go ahead. Now, what they want to do is make hay while the sun sets, but these things can be discouraged. For example, if somebody knows that when I retire, I'm going to take home my first 10 million, 20 million, 15 million when I retire, and then I'm going to be aiming XYZ a month for such a period of time. You will see that the discipline will be there. You will want to take bribe of one million, even if it's any injustice, because his mind is at the retirement. If I take this one million now, it will stop my 15 million when I retire if I'm caught, because they will start me and I will lose this benefit. It will serve as caution. Now, that's on the issue of the men. Now, maybe when you finish, I see you wanted to say something. So when you're done, maybe we're not going to the issue of equipment, working and funding, and the expenses and allocations are not that easy. Well, so this is what I wanted to ask, because from the things, the problems that you've mentioned, there's so many of them. There's the retirement benefits. There's those who want to join the fuss because of lack of employment opportunities. There's a government itself who wouldn't want a corrupt free police force because, of course, that would affect them. And so it almost seems like you cannot then talk about possibilities of reading the force of corruption, because these things have existed for a long time, and if they don't change every one of these factors, then we may not be able to find a corrupt free police force. But I wanted to ask just for what it's worth, is there a possibility of still being able to find punitive measures for corrupt police officers? Is there a way that we can reduce the police officers who are likely to take bribe because they know that they will be caught and they will be punished? Is there a way that we can find ways to stop a police officer from collecting funds from innocent citizens or locking up a citizen with the orders of a rich man? These little bits of corrupt practices here and there, is there still space for punitive measures in the force while these factors that you've mentioned do rather exist? Yes, yes. As a matter of fact, there are so many ways we can stop corruption in the Nigerian police force. There are so many ways we can stop this issue of a provenant person with connection, either government connection or private connection, or having so much money, being able to interfere in police issues and give others that will make them arrest citizens whether innocent or not. There are so many ways we can stop them. Now, I wrote to the spectrogeneral police, the immediate past the spectrogeneral police, and I wrote to, when Idris was the spectrogeneral police, Idris was the spectrogeneral police, I wrote to him and I gave him these ideas on how he can do it. I also wrote to the immediate past the spectrogeneral police, Mr. Jamu. I wrote to him too and I gave him ideas on how this can be done. I spent countless days in the office of the PSU, that is, principal staff officer of the spectrogeneral police. I spent countless days in this office. I keep going to Abuja. I flew with my money from Port Harcourt. Can you share some of these ideas with us? More than five occasions I flew to Abuja. Only for them to minute my first time, they minute the letter to the PRO for advice and then I had to go and see the PRO. I don't want to go into what transferred the corruption so much. I think GCP Onwuna is a commissioner of police and then even the even Frank Kumbak, before he became the police PRO, now I've been speaking to him when he was area commander in some way or should I be open. We've been talking of these issues, that this is how it can happen. I see him as a very smart officer, but maybe when you sit in that level of exposure now, maybe a lot of these things. One of the things I want to share is this. Now, I may not be able to share everything because I'm a cop as well, but some of the basic thing I want you to know is that let's worry a little from the American police. I have supported them so much, inasmuch as I do not compare them and the Nigerian police. One thing you should understand is this. The American police had so much corrupt cases too, years back, decades back, and one of the way those cases were stopped were through public involvement in policing, such as NGOs and associations, as well as a neighborhood involvement in security. Now, when this involvement team, that is how the IAC is started. The International Association of Chiefs of Police, that most Nigerian police officers attend every year, and myself, I'm an associate member of that organization in the U.S. That was how it started. It all started because of the need for the police and the public to have a place where they mix together. Where the public have a say in police activities. You understand me? That is what helped the American society. That is why today in America, people have a say in their policing. Unlike here, where people don't have a say. You can be whist by the police to them. Tomorrow morning, you are charged to call and they call to just send it to prison and keep it for TPR or BE, waiting to advise. And before you know it, you're already in prison. That doesn't happen there like that. Why? Because of public involvement. Now, what am I saying? I wrote to the police. I told them what we should do is number one. Those of us that are into security activism, when we have a lot of us, we have the, we have in Lailos, we have my friend, we are both, we communicate. That is Shabu and Osirah Segalink. We have people in Abuja. We are in Port Harcourt and River State. We have people all over the country. Pick us out and let us walk with the police. The police can not move from the police. Let us represent the police in these different states. And what do we do? Let our opportunity, we have power over them. They are carrying arms, but let us be able to interfere in issues that regard members of the public when they make a complaint. We are going to work with the ACP, Shakole, the complainant response team. Even them, they are policemen. So there is little they can react. But we are citizens. We are not in the system. So we will be at least justifiable a little. Our actions will be focused a little on the citizens while also ensuring that the police are doing their job. And when they are accused unnecessarily, we are not going to be in support. But whenever they are properly accused, we will assist the police to mitigate it before it gets to any level. Why did I make this suggestion? On my own, as an individual, I have assisted hundreds of hundreds of Nigerians who had issues with the police. Even in the densars. I have put my life on Is that right, B? Can you hear us? Yeah, I can hear you. Okay. Do you understand how deep corruption has eaten into the Nigerian police force? Let me tell you something. There's something I wanted to tell you. You cannot go to equity. Equity, say, he who comes to equity must come with clean hands. You understand me? So when I heard that the Inspector General Police have suspended their GCT abacare, I don't know if the Inspector General Police, it's supposed to be this police service commission job, but the Inspector General Police also has a right. Yeah, he made a recommendation according to the news. He recommended that he be suspended. For abacare to be suspended. Now, I'm just going to put it in the party booth for my interview. We should be stifled at the minute. It's simple. Here we have things, you have the first term. That's all I want to say concerning that issue. You see, we should stop seeing people as escape routes and when they come, we just give them as escape routes when we're in position of leadership. No equally well that we are all guilty of such offense. That's what I want to tell you. Are you making allegations on the integrity of the current Commissioner of Police, Minister R.P. Commissioner of Police? Yes, Inspector General Habegapardin. Of Police? Yes. Well, I'm not making any allegation. I'm discussing with you. So what you make of the discussion is for you. So if you want to make an allegation, you can go ahead with the public figure. You can say what you want to say. You understand me? But what I'm saying is that here with that tension has a first term. Now that America, inasmuch as you are against corruption in the system, the corruption and general police force did before even the IG joined the police force. You can be part of the system. Even when you are not corrupt, the corruptness in the system can come and put you in a position where you can't even be seen as not being corrupt, whether you are not corrupt. That is the case of the Nigerian police. Okay. Even someone who joined the police today will be seen as corrupt, not because they are taking any bribe or participated in any form of corruption. But the level of corruption in the system, once you become part of the system, it automatically robs you. So, are you then saying that there is almost no answers to reading the police of corruption? If these things that you've earlier mentioned aren't actually taken seriously? Because from what you've mentioned, are the things that you discussed with Che Guevara and the likes, it still doesn't take away the unemployment of society. It still doesn't take away the retirement benefits that are unavailable. It still doesn't take away the hunger in the police force. So, how then do we get the answers to these questions? And one thing that I'm hoping that we can find out is, when a police officer, some of the things that Abakeria has been accused of, when a police officer does things on that level, who should punish that police officer? Because suspension really would never be the answer. Number one, I told you that we as the members of the public that are into security should be incorporated into the system. Why should we be incorporated? Because the system cannot help itself. Now, for people that are Christian, this is why God did not say a man that is on earth already should die for the world. He has to bring a child that nobody is pregnant with a woman. That's what I mean. The police cannot help themselves. It is only with the public that can ensure the police is working well. So, the selected few of us that are into police advocacy, that are into public advocacy, security, bridging a lot of that, should be involved in the system in a way we can represent the public interest in the police force. That's what I was trying to tell you. That way we can minimize the reaction and corruption towards the public. That's one. And then two, also help the police to begin to bring to bear, still to the public, what they are suffering. For example, I have used to elect for police. I have supported in building police commissions. I have prepared stations. I have supported in preparing police vehicles. I have pictures evidence. I have prepared police vehicles up to the tune of 300 or something thousand for each cross. On my own, as a citizen, because I know that they have issues, of swelling, they have issues of bad vehicles. And I took the fame of going around. I talked to Nigerians called support me. This police station don't have a toilet and we build a water system for them. Come, support me. This police station, their vehicle is very bad. We need to help them. That's the only way they can be able to protect us. And the public listening to me, why? Because when they have issues and they are arrested, I normally have them for free. How many more police stations are you going to build? How many more vehicles are you going to service? No, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. You are not getting the point. What I'm saying is that as one person without any recognition individually has been able to rise to this point of being a bridge between the police and the public, being able to help the public to be freed when they are illegally arrested, being able to support members of the public to the tune of hundreds on my own without any recognition and influence whatsoever from any part of the world, from any top. On my own, as a Nigerian, I've done that. Now, on my own, also as a Nigerian, I have been able to repair police vans that are bad, calling on Nigerians. Come, let's repair this, building toilets for police. So if we are now officially incorporated into the police post-activities as a bridge between the police and the public, what we are going to do is that at that point, we are going to have enough strength to assist thousands and millions of Nigerians that will, that will, that will suffer from the police, we'll be able to help them from brutality to corruption issues. They will be paying for bail, many things will be able to stand for that. Then from the police angle, we'll be able to carry all the sufferings of the police, such as the welfare package, such as funding and other packages. We will not feed them as citizens and work on ideas on how our police can serve us better and move to national assembly, make laws, move for these laws. Talk to those public who have been assisting when they have issues. They will now assist us to lend off their voice and be able to peacefully begin to push for proper reforms and proper welfare packages and monitor these welfare packages. When the policeman retired, we'll be able to jointly as members of the public from his community and we'll be able to monitor that his benefits are given to him. Now you see everybody will now become their local police one way or the other and the police now will be left to do nothing other than professionalism. While different argument will understand that every member of the public is now part of the policing so it will become difficult to corrupt them. Now it's not that American police is not corrupt, it's just that people are so aware of the police activities and system and they are so involved that even when you want to corrupt them, it becomes difficult because the public is involved already. Now we need to move this policing to that level. Okay so just quickly as we wrap up, we're focusing on this case with Abakiri and his connection to Hosh Poppy. What do you expect to be the outcome of this investigation panel that has been constituted to look into the case? Also, how would you foresee this matter playing out in case you know if there's going to be a possible extradition of Abakiri for him to be tried in this case in the US? First of all, I'm sorry to say this, I am not in support of anybody setting up a panel to try Abakiri. I am 100 percent against it and I'm speaking it out. That does not mean he's not corrupt or the allegations are not true or they don't have facts. Yes, they may have facts. What I'm saying is how many times has America translated and translated their citizens to Nigeria to face charges? Or how many times have Nigerian government or truly police in Nigeria has talked about a corrupt policeman in America and then Nigerians have gone to sell them and then Americans have set up a panel to interview their office and then they've addressed him to Nigeria. Sorry, I mean, sending them to Nigeria, extraditing them to come and face Nigerian constructions. I think the difference here is Nigerians and I guess also Americans, you've also mentioned that in the American police system, I have these bits of corruption, but in situations like that, we haven't seen that many, if we're being honest, but in situations like that, you believe that the American justice system... If we believe that the American justice system will... This is the point, sir. This is the point. This is the point I'm trying to make. We believe that the American justice system will take care of that police officer or rather will treat that police officer, punish him if possible, in the US, but we don't have that same fate here in Nigeria. That's the difference. And if we say, oh, we should not allow... How many times did the American, with the US, let an American be extradited here to Nigeria, it very much is sounding like, oh, we should protect our own simply because, well, let's protect ours because even if it's corrupt, also very much sounding like, oh, well, this is an Igbo man. Don't let other tribes come and tell you that Igbo man is corrupt, even if we know he's corrupt. That's very much what it sounds like. So, yes, you may not agree with the extradition process, but what would you expect to play out in this case, now that the panel has been set up? I want us to play out, it's very simple. First of all, like you have mentioned, the America has a good justice system. I hope you know that there are evidence in America that are not admissive in court, based on how this evidence are caught. That's of course. That's America justice system. Fine. It's a clear evidence, it will indict the person, but because of the way it was gotten, the court to say this is not an admissive evidence. That's what I'm saying. First of all, let's look at the case. Hosh Popi was not arrested with relationship or any connection whatsoever with Nigerian security authority. He was arrested in Paraguay, United Arab Emirates without any permission from Nigerian government, no government. He was now a translator to United States to face corruption charges. And he's facing corruption charges. And then he's not naming Nigerians that he has done business with me. And one of whom is Abdi Akari, he's a police officer, who is now expected to be participating in such illicit activities. But what I'm telling you is that I am not saying that he's innocent and we should not try him. I am saying that we should build our system and rid our people of this level of croftness. And I do not support anybody trying Abdi Akari for this particular issue that is coming from the U.S. But I will support any form of trial on Abdi Akari in Nigeria by Nigerian, in the Nigerian activity. And until we can do that, let this stuff as a detriment to us so that we can build our system and push for what is supposed to be until it becomes. But I do not support anybody because America says, I'm not a fan of the Western world or any foreign body coming to become so big to us. No. I believe so much in Nigeria, irrespective of the failures of government at all levels. But if it is, I will not support it. All right, Mr. Bostender, I pay police reform advocate. We thank you for always coming on to share perspectives on security in the country. Thank you. All right. So that's the discussion there. I'm quite contentious towards the end regarding where should he get justice or where should justice be served? But I do understand your perspective because when you look at our judicial system, cases can stay in courts for decades. So what really then is justice? What's the guy's name from Manambra State, you know, who was accused of murdering a boy that her father had to go into a river to check for his body? We spoke about that during the Ansar's protest. I can remember his name. I was a police officer who was accused of numerous crimes till today as we speak. And I'm sure till the end of next week and the end of August and the end of 2021, that case would never come up. I just can't remember his name. But there is that case. There's numerous others that kept being swept under the rug. And we never hear about them. And that's the reason Nigerians don't have fate in the system. And when Nigerians have some hope that somebody can be punished for their crimes or for some level of corruption, it doesn't matter where it is. Because in Pluto, let it go, let it happen in Pluto. We will take that same Jeff Bezos spaceship and go to Pluto and get him to traffic. That's the way Nigerians feel about a case like this. Because there's pain amongst Nigerians who have suffered from this same corrupt Nigerian police system. And let's not also forget that the crimes that Abba Kerri has been accused of aren't necessarily the Babarikada he was, he sold. They aren't because he connected two tailors together. Not at all. Let me bring up evidence. I'll quickly share it. It's simply because, according to the FBI documents, and Ms Arake also needs to understand that the case we're talking about here is not because of what Hosh Poppi said. That's not the challenge. These are screenshots. It's over one minute. Ms Arake, let me bring out this evidence for you. We're talking about Hosh Poppi reaching out to Abba Kerri, deputy commissioner of police and basically texting him the number of his partner in crime who had blackmailed him. Now, this is a message that Hosh Poppi sent to Abba Kerri, according to the U.S. court document that are now all over the internet. Now, Hosh Poppi said, please, sir, I want to spend money to send this boy to jail. Let him go for a very long time. And Abba Kerri, a deputy commissioner of police, replied, okay, bro, I understand. I will discuss with my team who arrested him and we will do something about it. My point is, the things that Abba Kerri is being accused of, the reason his name is there on the FBI documents and court documents as an accomplice to this crime, is not because Hosh Poppi said I called him. Evidence says it. These are from phone records and messages and emails and all that the FBI was able to Receipts. Exactly, pulled together in the course of the investigation. Same with every other person who is there. They've gone through every single type of resources that were necessary to put these names together and that is just for one particular case. There's a lot of other thousands and millions of dollars that Hosh Poppi is also accused of taking off people across the United States and America and the rest of them. But this is just for this particular case. And so it's not when he says, oh, a lot of evidence cannot be put forward in court because of how it was done. It's not because of somebody singing to the FBI. It's because of what their records show. We'll have to probably just take a break here and go to our next topic. Stay with us. The review of the APC, what Congress is in the last weekend. We'll be going through that. There's a lot of, you know, squabbles here and there. Party factions in different states. Some places, of course, have to subviolence here and there. We're talking about that after the short break here on the breakfast and go anywhere.