 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with myself Jackie Jones and the wonderful, I've not referred to you as that for a while, the wonderful Bob Cook. Oh, just sitting down here. Oh, thank you for those kind words. Oh, kiddo. So what we're going to be doing this episode is imposter syndrome within the therapy process, which I'm really interested to know your thoughts on this. This is another one of your topics, Bob. Oh, did I choose this? You did choose this. Yeah, so you must meet people with this syndrome all the time in your practice. Yeah, I think we all have a certain amount of imposter syndrome. Do you have many clients that come in specifically through that process, though? Not. Maybe it shows up partway through. I wouldn't say people contact me with that being the topic of wanting therapy. But it sort of comes up in the therapeutic dialogue. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I think so. It's become more and more that case with me, clinic. Can you hear that phrase much more? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think the, I wouldn't say it's disorder, but the trade has been around a long time. I was listening on the radio to a famous footballer, Terry Butcher, is it? He was playing a long time ago for England. And I can't remember the Ipswich was the club. Yeah. And he was talking about imposter syndrome and that though he didn't know the label for it, that that's what he experienced 30 years ago. And he was talking about how he felt with all those processes. So it's become used more as a syndrome. I mean, I think you can have it at a disorder level and a trait level. So I think a lot of us might feel some imposter syndrome sometimes. However, it gets more fixed and you feel and think it a large amount of the time, it can become incapacitating. And that's when the problem is. So if we see somebody who's got an imposter disorder or even imposter traits, sort of person going to occurs of somebody who's got a tremendous fear of failure. Yeah. Somebody who tries to be Superman. They have a, you know, have a real appetite for being perfect, you know, and they deny, but however they also deny their success. So the sort of people who actually never feel satisfied even though they try to be Superman, even though they try to be perfect, they always feel they never are. So they have a fear of failure. Yeah. Do you think again, when you're saying you've seen a lot of this more recently or, you know, in the recent past, do you think again, that's got something to do with social media and comparing ourselves to others, that there's always somebody doing a better job than us. So therefore we feel like a failure. Well, Tony Butcher was a very successful hip switch player and also a successful international footballer in the 1980s, 1990s, before social media was talking about it. Do I think the advent of social media means that it's more of a common current source used as a term or I think we've always compared ourselves. I think there's always been that competitive investors, always been that sense of having to succeed. Maybe social media like a lot of these other mental illnesses or, you know, maybe it's come more accessibility to the media, but I think it's always been around. Yeah, I suppose, you know, looking at sportspeople or people that are, you know, quite high up in the field, maybe compare themselves to others. I would imagine sportspeople particularly are constantly comparing themselves to others. Yeah, maybe. So maybe there's something in it becoming more of a diagnosis through social media, but those sorts of people are paralyzed with fear. Yeah, people. Poster syndrome are always feeling they're not matching up. They can't, you know, they're not really who they think, who people think they are. Underneath it, they're always going to be caught out somewhere. Yeah. So I remember a table, I was listening only yesterday. That's why it's in mind. You know, even though he made it to the English international team, he always had a fear that Bobby Robson, who was the manager, would phone up and say, you're not good enough. I found you out and kick him off the team. So it was apparently guilty of success. You know, if you feel, I mean, it's very common, I think, a posture syndrome is that people feel guilty if they're successful because they don't think they are and they discount praise. Yeah. They always believe that underneath it all, they're a fraud. It's interesting that the title of this episode, being imposter syndrome within the therapy process, do you think that the therapist is open to this as well? I'm thinking in my early days of practicing, I felt like I was going to get caught out. Yeah, I think it's like all these things we've been talking about, there's a continuum of health. Yeah. So I think there's trace and, you know, a lot of people on the neurotic level, I'm sure can identify with what we're talking about, however, if it becomes more fixed and more at a pathological level, where the level of functioning is incapacitated, I think this is far more problematic. Yeah. So, you know, I'm sure I felt, I felt many times the way you're talking about, has it incapacitated me? Has it impaired my level of functioning? Has it been a problem in my life? Probably not. But for many people, with it at a disordered level, they have a fear of being successful, have a fear of failing. They go around thinking they're a fraud. They are guilty of their successful. So when it gets to a level where it stops them functioning or they live in a world of fear or guilt, I think it's much more problematic. Yeah. So what would people come with originally in the therapy room? Because would they come with that? I think, like I said, does it kind of show up? Would they come with anxiety and depression maybe to start off with and then that unfold as the sessions go on? I don't think many clients walk in and say they've got imposter syndrome and that's what they want to work on. It usually comes out of other things as you start working through the layers of the onion. Yeah. So for example, in TA, they've got the concept of drivers, which is they're driven to be perfect. Yeah. So they have a fear of failure. And they also may well have imposter syndrome with that. So it might come out of the work that you're doing. Yeah. It's a phase which is used a lot in mental health nowadays and also in the media and also you're correct on social media and everybody knows what is meant by that term because I think many people can identify with that term in some ways or the other. Yeah. I always find it interesting when I'm having conversations like this with people about why some people are not others. And I think that's what I talk about in the therapy room with people where imposter syndrome comes up is everybody doesn't suffer from this. There's only certain people that suffer from it. Like you said it to be perfect driver or maybe if you've got a be strong or a try hard. Do you know what I mean? If you've got a try hard driver, you never reach the full potential because you're always trying for the next thing. You're always pushing to do more. So, you know, it all links back to our upbringing and early decisions really. Well, our only decisions come from the impact of our parenting. Yeah. So, you know, as a psychotherapist of long standing, I come from the view that the past is played out in the present. Yeah. We are a product of our past. So our, or this syndrome that we're talking about will come from the impact of our parenting or stroke and significant other people. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. It's carried out into adulthood. So if you're going to work with this type of syndrome then you have to go back to the past because the healing's in the past, not in the present. Yeah. So how would you work with people? Well, obviously besides just listening to their story and thinking, you know, about injunctions and drivers and all the things T.A. Thebes do. People with this syndrome usually have a distorted view of distorted view of reality or at least a distorted view of their self-image. So the first step would be to probably do some normalization work so they can start separating out outdated images of themselves to what is actually reality today. T.A. that might often be called contaminations. Yeah. So I'll probably start off there. I wrote out a treatment plan just before it came on air and that was my first place, normalization, decontamination work. You know, getting to the self-doubt that a person has where that comes from, looking for the critical controlling parent which has been internalized that they're trying to match up to doing some child ego state work in that area. But you know, in the end, this is all about how the pastors have been played out in the present. So you have to go backwards. Yeah. So another part of this work in the child ego state is getting to know the saboteur. In other words, that part that has to, not sorry, not sorry, not something to the imposter, sorry, that part that has to be the imposter. Now they have to be the imposter so that they don't get criticized. They don't get put down. They don't get humiliated. So they have to be someone they are because of the fear of that. So you have to get to know the imposter and make, I would say friends with the imposter, but it's actually come alongside the imposter to see what they're defending against. Okay. And once you can get to what they're defending against, then you'll get to where the healing is because the healing is in the shame, the humiliation, the fear of success, the fear of being themselves, that comes from a very early age usually. Say a bit more about that. The healing comes from... Well, if we get to the original place where the person, which is the younger child usually, is feeling so humiliated by the significant other person or where they feel shamed or put down or they felt they had to match up and be perfect, it's a dynamic. They're doing that because if they are themselves, that will not be good enough. So they have to be whatever the person, other person wants them to be or you're right, there is a comparing part to it, but it's usually in dynamic with the significant other person who's being judgmental. Okay. Or even if they compare themselves with other people, they're still making a judgment negatively. Yeah, yeah. So the sort of work you would do is you'd probably, you could do some actionistic work, to chair work, to cushion work, where you ask them to put part of themselves which feels so judged and put down and humiliated on one cushion and put the imposter on the other cushion and get them to talk to each other to find out what's the dialogue that's going on between the two parts of the self. It's very interesting. Because if you can do that, you're going to find out, well, hopefully you're going to get to a place where one part can forgive the other part or you're going to get to a place where one part can see that to survive, they have to create a part of themselves which was being an imposter, if you like, to actually protect the other part. Because the creation of this character has to be perfect, try hard, be Superman and everything else that goes along with that is a survival defence mechanism so that the other part is okay. Yeah. So if you can get to a place where they can understand that it's a survival defence mechanism in the service of survival of the other part in a healthy way, then you might get to some compassion. And if you can get to one part being compassionate with the other part, you're going to get to some healing, I believe. Okay. And as part of that process, accepting failure is part of being a human being, accepting that it's okay to... Well, it's really... Well, no, no, well, let's get it back. It's really fear of failure. Yeah. I didn't say acceptance of failure. I said fear of failure. And the fear of failure is because the person is frightened of failing because of what will happen in their perception of what will happen if they get it wrong or if they don't match up or if they're not as good as Charlie, what will happen or if they don't get it right in terms of what the significant other person wants them to get it right. So it's a fear of failure because what will happen? It's not an acceptance of failure. Now, in that might become... You're correcting one way because part of the therapy might be they have to accept that they're not perfect. Sometimes there will be failure and have some normalization down that road. As important as that road, though, is what are the consequences or the perceived consequences if they're not Superman? Yeah, yeah. So what they could say, well, if I'm not Superman, I remember every time I got home, I got chastisised for not getting things right. How come you're not XXX? So I decided to be XXX. Even though I felt I wasn't. Yeah. So they carry a fear of failure with them. They carry a guilt if they're not successful, or they might even carry guilt for being successful because they know underneath it all, they aren't really. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very... knotted up place to be if you are because it is the fear of failure, but it's also, you know, learning to accept that that is part of... We can't all be successful at everything. We've all got unique skills and traits and... Yeah, but that's what they didn't have. They never had that permission to bring themselves. They never had the way that you were talking. Yeah. What they heard all the time was the opposite. Yes. Yeah. So you need to get to the emotional feelings that I think are underneath that process. Yeah. And it goes back to what you've said, you know, in quite a few of these episodes in the past is that you becomes an I, you know, when you're told enough times, then you accept that as being part of who you are. Yeah. Yeah. Now, working with these types of people, it's just a bit like a knot because they discount praise, for example. Yeah. And they don't find permission as easy to take. So they do need to get the sort of the narrative you've talked about just there, which is the permissions to be and all the things you just talked about. But as in most therapeutic processes, the quality of how you do this is another story. So timing becomes the key. So you need, first of all, I believe to get to the consequences for not matching up. And then you'll do the permissions later. I mean, you can, you can save permissions, but if they're so frightened, they could be so overwhelmed and frightened they can't even hear or take on board. Or it's like being in the alien land, you know, there's only a land on the moon where permissions, it's just you have to go somewhere before you go there. Yeah. You should do a podcast on the use of permissions because I think, you know, permissions are vital in enhancing health. But actually they need to be given in the correct time in terms of healing. So the therapist, sorry, the client can hear what you said in the first place. Otherwise, it's totally counterproductive. So permissions, correct, I agree completely at the right time in the therapeutic process, which isn't at the beginning of therapy. No, no. And I agree completely what you're saying about, you know, it will, the discounted if there are any permissions or, you know, praise or I don't know, conflicting information from what they've got, then yeah, they won't hear it at all. Yeah. No. So these types of people might also, you know, they've had to create an imposter to keep themselves safe. Yeah. So it becomes a survival mechanism. So you get to have to get to that dynamic, I believe in terms of the healing before you go other places. Yeah. And you know, one of the other things that I often talk about is being compassionate, like you said, with that part of yourself, but it's there for a reason. It was there to protect you and it's a survival mechanism. So there's a point to it. It's not, it's not a, you know, a useless part of you. It was there for a reason. Yeah, that's a really, really important place to get. Yeah. That process. And in fact, as with many, many other areas we'd be talking about, if you can help the client be compassionate with themselves, then you're halfway there. Yeah. Do you think compassion comes with understanding and awareness about where these things come from and why they are part of us? I think therapy is one of the few places where you start to build awareness and understandings of how our past impacts on our present. You know, you just think this is just who I am. Well, it's like saying where does empathy come from? I tell you what I think about compassion is that compassion, the development and compassion, which I believe is interesting in the human organism. Will only come, I think, through awareness and understanding of a person's past. Yeah. So it has to come through, I believe, that process of going back to the person being more aware. But also there's nothing about compassion. It's that compassion from the therapist is vital. I think as a model of how to be, as a model of a different emotion. Usually with compassion though, especially with clients who have really toxic histories, it's completely unalien to them because they've never been on the other end of compassion. Yeah. But compassion is the way to the heart. So I think therapists model in compassion is a very good bridge, but it takes a while. Yeah, because again, it can be just discounted or not, not really paid. That's right, or it can be too overwhelming. Yeah, yeah. So the client is overwhelmed by the compassion and they then close up or move away. Yeah. But compassion is vital, I think. Such as empathy is in the working with a healing. Yeah. And again, I completely agree about if things like compassion and permission are too early in the therapy process, it can be overwhelming and the client can shut down. They might disappear, they might not come back. Yeah, well, that's absolutely true. So if you're going to be a therapist and you will be trained, hopefully in all these things, but you know, there's a whole therapy movement around compassion. Compassion focused therapy is a very big movement and the whole psychotherapy training in itself. So we know that compassion and empathy are really important in the therapy process, but the delivery and when you deliver compassion and empathy is another story. Yeah. Now with the imposter syndrome, you know, I am with you here. Once we've done some sort of normalization, help them become aware of, you know, it was in what helps ensure if you'd like, but it's a choice to keep themselves safe by creating another part of themselves, which was, we might want to call imposter, but it was part of themselves that actually was really vital for their well-being. Once they've got that sort of understanding, take down board, so they're not so persecuted themselves and they can move to see this as a sort of more of a compassionate approach, then healing will happen quicker. Yeah. Yeah. Because again, it's a deep rooted part of their self, that imposter. So you have to get to know the imposter, to get to know the other self that has been protected, if you like. Yes. Which is nice. It's quite an endearing thing. That's why I think two chair work is very a good technique here to separate out the two parts of the self. Yeah. So that the person may get to some awareness of one part is protected on the other part and that it was a survival process and something they should be proud of rather than feel so abhorrent. Yeah. Which is interesting because that's the topic for the next episode, Bob, is techniques and one of them being two chair work, which is something I've not done in the therapy room. Wow. I know. I've observed it. I've, you know, been part of it in my therapy training but not actually used it with clients. Well, it's very, very common actionistic technique from Marino onwards. So Marino was the father of psychodrama. Then we go up to Fitzpulse and Gestalt Psychotherapy used to use it in his methodology of top dog. Yeah. And then transaction analysis, which used that actionistic technique a lot in the parent child dynamic and it's been used by many of the therapeutic models. So it's a very well known and I think a very powerful and useful technique for therapists to have. Yeah. In their toolbox. And I think with the imposter syndrome, which is really at its heart a conflict between two parts of the self. It's a really useful tool to use. Yeah. Because you can set up a dialogue between the two parts so that you can get some normalization and work perhaps to what you just talking about earlier. You know, a level of self-awareness that this was a survival process rather than a sort of abhorrent process or a duplicate part of themselves that this, you know, should be compassion oriented. Yeah. I'm all for compassion with ourselves. Yeah. How do you get there? That's the bit. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things I often say to clients is that if we knew a better way of doing it, we would have done it. We do the best that we can with what we've got available at the time. And these decisions are made really early on when we're young, we haven't got the life experience. So we do the best that we can. Yeah. And we started off by saying very rarely to people come in and say, I've got imposter syndrome and that's one to work on. But what they will often come in and say is, you know, I need to find myself because for the last 30 years, I've been playing someone else. And I have got to a stage. I need to be myself and find out about myself. They may say that, for example. Yeah. Yeah. Or I feel like I'm not being authentic in my work or relationships. I'm not being who I really am. Yeah. And the next bit is, a therapist needs to say, and if you were who you really were. Who is that? What really happened next sentence is I don't know. Yeah. Lost all sight of him. And then the work is about helping the person find that part of himself. Yeah. I hear that a lot. I have no idea who I am. The question then, well, who have you been then? Now that would probably lead onto a fragmentation of the self, which we can then might lead to what people call imposter syndrome. Yeah. Which is one part guarding against the other or one part protecting the other. Yeah. That's it. Guarding, protecting whichever way you want to look at it. It's a good thing. Yeah. And what we're talking about here is so common in the therapeutic process that most people, I think, deal with fragmentation and conflicts of the self most of their time in the therapeutic process. Yeah. So I hope that's been of interest to the people that are listening. It's a very tangled thing being a human being. We are very complex creatures. Yeah, we are. Absolutely. Yeah. We'll stop there because I could talk. We are very complex human beings. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I love about human beings. We are very complex. Right. So until the next episode, Bob, we are going to be looking at techniques within the therapy room and particularly to chair work. Okey-dokey. Okey-dokey. Speak to you soon. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. 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