 Hello, welcome to the Donahue Group. We're glad you can join us for a half an hour of fast paced, highly intelligent. I guess that's all I can think of, but political chatter from the chattering class here. We're glad you could join us. To my direct right is Ken Risto, who is the Curriculum and Assessment Specialist for Social Studies in the Sheboygan Area School District. As well as a social studies teacher, a simple math professor, never, never. Math is terribly difficult, at least for me. Tom Paneski from the University of Wisconsin-Sheboygan Campus. Cal Potter, former state senator and library guy, and so we're glad you could join us. Library guy, library guy. Well, his title is even longer than Ken's. It was a long one. I used to have eight bureaus under me, so I could... Well, there you go. It was eight bureau Potter, they call him. How many buckets do you have, right? We're just in the thick of the political season. We're talking about some state races, and if we have time, we might even segue into some national issues, but it is an interesting and odd political season. I think trying to figure out the impact. Let's just start with the Kagan Guard, Eighth Congressional District race in the Green Bay area. Now, did John Guard resign from, forgive my ignorance, resign from the Wisconsin Legislature to make this race? Well, he would be open, so he can't run for bull. Okay, so this is a make-or-break election for him. His Democratic opponent, Steve Kagan, as I understand it, is an allergist, and lots and lots of money being spent on this race. Some question as to whether the general unpopularity of the Republicans might be giving guards some trouble. What do you guys think? Well, Paul, it's what I'm hearing. It's a close race. I think the high-profile nature of the race, it was indicative of why George Bush came flying in to help out Guard, and it's one of those few seats that's up, that will determine who controls the House of Representatives on the national level. So we do have one of our important races in the state playing on the national level as to who controls the House. I think it's the first time that I actually receive campaign literature, and I'm not even, none of us are going to be voting in that election. I get campaign mail from the Guard folks. I'm not quite sure how I end up on that mailing list, but... Tom signed you up. You're now an honorary member of the Republican Party. You're a swing voter. Well, I think it's because I have a subscription to the Wall Street Journal. I think that's rather the case. Putting on a few pretensions, eh? Teach the subjects. Thought might be good to stay current. What a rare thing that might be in the public schools. But that just tells you how much resources are being brought to bear, and of course you see all the national, I mean both national parties, campaign parties are throwing money in and making the ugly, the really ugly doom and gloom ads. Pretty much guards running the Republican playbook. We're going to talk about illegal immigration. We're going to talk about stem cell research, I believe. Maybe, maybe not. I know that's a state issue as well. And you know, John, and Kagan's going to raise your taxes because that's what Democrats do. I mean, it's going to be about taxes and immigration, and I don't think they really have talked too much about the warrant here yet. Have there been ads about that? No, I don't recall. No, but as I understand it, the Journal Sentinel article from October 1st indicates that John Gard offers a staunch defense of current U.S. policy in Iraq. Oh, sure. Kagan is obviously taking the... Well, he's a Democrat. So what is his position going to be? Yeah, well... I mean... Who knows? Yeah, exactly. I mean, who knows with the Democrats? Exactly. But it is interesting, and with my Irish sense of doom, I keep thinking that, there's all this talk about the Democrats maybe solidly taking over the house and just maybe a whispers breath of a chance that they could get the Senate back, and I just think the Democrats being the Democrats, and I'm one of them, they're going to screw it up somehow. Somehow you know it. What if the Democrats lose? Why haven't they been? But I think... Well, you guys are still responsible then. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a heavy burden, Tom. I'm telling you, and it's getting heavier and heavier, but it is really... You're in Wisconsin, a reflection of a referendum, if you will, on the Bush presidency. So it'll be, I think, very interesting to see how it plays out. I think that's what's making this race a competitive. People are very frustrated about what's happening in foreign policy on a number of fronts. And if you look at that district, the last time a Democrat held it was when Father Cornell held it, and then Toby Roth was in there for a long time. Long time. Toby was pretty conservative to put it mildly. That's right. He's probably been in Republican hands for a number of years. Who was that radio announcer, didn't he, and he's doing an ad for... Johnson. He was a teller of J. Johnson. He ran, but lost. He lost. He lost. Oh, I thought he won. But it was a very, very competitive race, very much like this one. Oh, okay. But he lost. I'm surprised he did not get back into it. That would be something that you would be thinking of. And was Father Cornell... Maybe one of the Norbertines from St. Norbert's? I'm wondering what his connection is, because I mean, in the Green Bay community, if you're a Norbertine, you walk on water. Well, he... He'd appear. Eventually, he was told he couldn't be in the political arena. So that's his demise. So I don't know what his order was, but... The Vatican equivalent of the Hatch Act. Exactly. Yeah. He was a progressive Democrat, and it didn't fly very well. But some people, yeah. It's interesting. But going back to some state races, I am astonished still in the Doyle Green race that there have been really relatively few substantive issues that have defined this race. It's just a question of who's dirty, or who's gotten more money from dirty sources. Mark Green, we talked about this last time, whoever's running his campaign and is not willing to let go of that $467,000, which I think they could probably get from another source, is just keeping the who's dirtier than whom, that whole piece alive. I mean, what are the issues? Nobody's talking issues as close as you get his stem cell. Why isn't Mark Green holding up Jim Doyle in his... I mean, Doyle is, at least the last time I looked, was anti-death penalty. That may be an issue that resonates with the... They're tearing at each other, but there's no discussion of anything that's of any substance or import, at least that's playing out. I mean, I know they had debates. Well, I think there's probably some very important decisions that have been made by the strategists here, and that is we take up the death penalty. There are people who are pro-life, against the abortion, who don't like the death penalty as well. There's an athlete vote, for example, that are on official policies against the death penalty. So there are some, I think, groups that they've probably analyzed and said, we don't want to take that path because we need that group, and we'll get them on this issue, but not on that issue. I think what's frustrating about this is the fact that this grace is going to spend maybe $40 million to get the next governor elected, and it's going to be based on negative campaigns because negative campaigning works, and that's what the ad agencies tell you is the weight of goal. And so when you've got a lot of money to spend, you just fine-tune and flood the market with things that before, when you spent only $20 million to get elected, you didn't see as much of. So there's dumpens, all this negative crap on the electorate, and I turn the sound on all the time. I hear half of these because I just... I know. It's insulting. It's so stupid, but I guess many of the electorate are persuaded by it because that's why it's done, and this is all scientifically... I think they're persuaded if the other side doesn't respond. I think if both sides start responding back and forth, then I think people are beginning to believe it's a pox in both their houses, and then I don't know what they take their cues on. Well, that's it. I don't know what they do then to try to figure out how they're going to vote in this particular race. I mean, Doyle has been swimming uphill for four years because he's had a very, very Republican legislature. And budget problems. He's actually handled budget issues quite brilliantly, I think. I mean, there's been a substantial cut. You laugh, but it's been a balanced budget, and it was... The Republicans handed him a tremendous deficit, and they've worked their way out of it to some extent. There's a little smoke and mirrors going on, but Doyle is... Transportation fund is used for a lot of things in Doyle's budget. Yeah. But of course, you can't quarrel with that because the smoke, the tobacco settlement was completely bought out by the Republicans and decimated within... That was ridiculous, wasn't it? Two or three months. Well, no, but who was in the Senate then? That was controlled by the Democrats at that point. Yeah. But I mean, it was all pressured and put forward by the Republicans. So pox on both their houses, as far as that goes. I don't... Yeah, the Milwaukee Sentinel, I think I told you on the telephone, I talked to you once about something else. The last couple of days, or earlier this week, they had articles on both Jim Doyle and Mark Green side by side. Actually, Doyle was on the left of the page, and Green was on the right of the front page. Very clever on the part of the Milwaukee Journal. Yeah. Had you go to a read, and then when you go to the inside to get the rest of the story, Doyle's was on the left side, and Green's was on the right. But they were bios about the individuals growing up, their family, what they did educationally, and they were very human. They have some nice qualities about them, and you don't see that in the end. You think Jim Doyle has nice qualities? He's got some nice qualities. He's not been recorded on Tape Town. They're committed. They're committed, but Green has some nicer qualities. No, I thought, you know, that was very nice. That was a good touch by the journal to do that. Yeah, I think it was a very good touch. So I see these ads, and I just think these are just two people in an arena, you know, sword fighting, and people are on a boat. Yeah. It's such a waste of money, though. Isn't it such a waste of money? I mean, Ken was absolutely right about the amount of money, and so the more money you have, the more weird this thing gets. I mean, an ad on the part of the Doyle campaign exposing the fact that in one ad, they actually used actors in a green spot. Oh, really? Did anybody really think that they actually went to a hoppy game and just had a spontaneous conversation with some folks about Wisconsin tuition? I mean, come on. What's next at the one where the kids are walking off, you know, because they're leaving Wisconsin, these might actually be, you know, kids maybe from some place other than Wisconsin. Who knows? Well, that's going to swing my vote. That's going to swing my vote. Yeah. I mean, I think that's part of the real problem is, you know, there's just so much, there's, both candidates are so washing in money that you can just throw an ad, and you can respond pretty quickly to turnaround time on, for example, the immigration charges. Jim Doyle, evidently, is for opening up the floodgates of Wisconsin, which is really significantly close to the Mexican border. And then you've got the response by the Doyle campaign, well, what are you talking about? We actually sent Wisconsin people, you know, and they got their feet in the Rio Grande, I guess, or something. I mean, is immigration really that big, and here again, the national campaign is playing out here too. Is immigration really going to touch Wisconsin voters? Are there that much fervor among our voters right now about immigration? Well, I don't think so. It's one of the few issues that the Republicans are even coming close on, though. I mean, if you look at the approval polls, and, you know, are you in favor of building a wall? Are you in favor of, I mean, immigration is really, it's such an interesting issue, because, well, getting off topic, but, you know, those massive demonstrations in late April and early May this year from immigrants, just hundreds of thousands of people, and yet, you know, Congress, and I think the nation as a whole, is very concerned. I mean, it's a complex, very complex issue. That's also a reaction by Republicans who are now out there in the field running, having come back from Washington without success. They couldn't agree amongst themselves, along with the White House, on developing any type of policy and putting into law, and they've been debating this thing for over a year, and so they have to come back and show that they really have a stand on something, and so they're going to move to the right, because that, of course, the Republican Party would probably play better. But on that, our own congressman, Sensenbrenner, our own Wisconsin congressman, he led the House charge on the immigration issue, you know, we build a wall first, we take care of that issue first, then we deal with the second, how do we, you know, we got to stop the flood, then we deal. But he was pretty strong, he held ground. He did hold his ground, it was pretty foolish ground, in my opinion, but in any event, just to segue off a little bit, the Sensenbrenner-Kennedy race is interesting to me only because Brian Kennedy is, and this is a Democrat, and it pains me to criticize a Democrat, but he's paying himself to run, and I don't know about you, but I got some problems with that, and he's paying himself- He's willing to pay as well because he's going to get his butt whipped. I mean, that district, I mean, I'm sorry, you could run a German Shepherd in the Republican Party, he's going to be sent to Congress, that district is so, I mean, you couldn't design a more Republican district. That's the most Republican congressional district we have. Oh, I know, I know, but- I mean, I used to say that when Cheboygan was in it, I used to tell my students, they look at them, they say, that's a really odd looking sort of, and I would break the data down, I say, and so here's this little liberal pimple on the butt of the district, and it's Cheboygan, you know, I'm just glad to be back in Petra's district because I think there's at least a reasonable chance that there might be, you know, Tom is certainly a little more modernist views than- Sense of renterism. Couldn't you figure out a way to characterize the campaign funds as other than salary for myself while I'm running? I don't know, it just struck me as being- It's unusual. Yes, it is. It makes you maybe a little unwilling to contribute to the guy's campaign. Let's put it that way. You know, I'm just not really interested in paying your salary. But I'm glad he's running because- Yeah, I mean, he's pretty bright, actually. In years past, it's been very difficult to get someone, and if they did find somebody, the person was not out there on the debate trail in a very articulate manner. Oh, no. The debates I've seen on television are the excerpts. Kennedy holds his own. He does. He does. And he does it very well. Yeah, so there has to be some way to fashion this, you know, as reimbursement for gas, you know, to drive around, or I mean, they're just, you know, with that well in any event. That was really a side issue, but I- and it didn't go very far because nobody cares. I want to get back to the Doyle thing. One of the things that I think- I'm not sure why- I mean, again, one of the things that frustrates voters, at least as people watch this debate, is there's Doyle tendency to say, well, you know, Green's from Congress, and so he should be lecturing us about anything because we all know how dysfunctional Congress is. And so when Green starts talking about the budgetary state of Wisconsin, which I think is a really important issue, because Doyle has kicked the can down the road a little bit, and so did the Republican legislature, you know, they were privy to that, or part of that, you know, his response as well, you know, Congress can't even get the national government budget in order. Who are they to be talking and lecturing me? I just think that- that lack of- I don't think that's going to play out. I don't think that's a poor strategy for Doyle. I think, really, Doyle should take on the issue of this is what I got, this is what we had to deal with, yeah, we're going to have future problems down the road, but we made progress. This is what I inherited from my Republican predecessor. But there's this constant reference to, well, you know, Green's from the Congress, and we all know how wretched Congress is. Well, that goes back to negative campaigning. I mean, if Doyle says the things that you just say, he loses. I don't know. Maybe I'm an idealist, but I think a campaign of ideas where you're honest about the progress that you've made is going to resonate at this point, after I think at this point in the campaign, I mean, I know that when we get about three days out, we're all going to see, you know, pictures of the family and everybody throwing- Yeah, everybody's going to throw a football, and we're going to have hazy, gauzy pictures, and there'll be Anya in the background or something, you know, who knows. We're going to see, no, not Abba, let's do Friday, Anya. Or some sort of New Age music, you know, and if it's the Republican just maybe some Christian hymns, you know, background. But at any rate, a lot of flags, you know, and lots of little kids and all that, we'll see that. But I think right now, if people actually made it a campaign about really at least talking about some issues that are important to people in Wisconsin. I thought Green was actually on the right track when he started talking about job loss and maybe the, you know, Wisconsin being a high tax state and those kinds of things, I think, and even the tuition thing is, from my point of view, as deceptive as it was. I think those things actually are meat and potato issues that people can get their hands around, heads around. It's been interesting. How about Falk and Van Hollen? I haven't heard much. No, I think both of them probably don't have the resources to go on television and as you see with the governor's race, it's not going to be a $40 million AG's race. So they're going to save all their muster for the last week and a half or so. And then you're going to see probably some negative ads. I don't know what Falk's going to dig up about Van Hollen, but Van Hollen will probably talk about Falk's unique role as a public intervener. And he's already done that. But I think that's maybe what's lost. That's what we'll see. A tree hug and go. Well, that's WMC is running those ads, which is hooking me because frivolous lawsuits are, I am the beholder, I guess. Yeah, exactly. But Falk hasn't responded to those, those, Heshey? I mean, really? I haven't seen the rest of it. I think that probably speaks about our modest budget. Do you blow your whole budget responding to WMC and then all of a sudden have little resources in the last two weeks to defend yourself against Van Hollen? But I know, I think Falk in the last couple of days has been running ads about Van Hollen's support for carrying concealer, concealing carry. And I think that's, and pointing out the fact that almost every police officer with a functioning brain is saying, this is not a good idea from the point of view of the safety of our officers. Could we just take a moment at this time and talking about carrying concealed and lift our coffee cups to Frank Lassay? And a toast to Frank. He has made the Colbert report. He doesn't want it concealed. He just wants him to carry it. If you get a chance to just go online and look at Stephen Colbert's take on Frank Lassay, it's actually pretty humorous. If any citizen in Sheboygan has any open idea about, not quite sure about how they were on the issue, you walked down to Michigan Avenue in a bar at about midnight or one o'clock in the morning and you walk in there and ask yourself, do you really want some people walk, even with a license, even with a training, do you really want them walking around with guns? I think a much more serious issue is, do you really want teachers walking around with guns? Oh no, what kind of role model is that? Oh my goodness gracious. Peaceful coexistence amongst human beings and the teachers walking around with a gun. Talk about an empty-headed idea. Oh, I get it. I can't tell you how often in the course of my career I have to sit down with students and say, violence isn't the way we solve problems. Well, we have to work this out somehow, some way. And then you're talking about it. If you don't listen to me, I got a gun. It's open about, open about, go back there. And there's some of my colleagues, I don't think I want them with guns. You wouldn't want me with a firearm. Well, there you go. Yeah, vice versa. That was an idea that met its demise real quick. Well, I just, I mean, really just on a national level now, it has broad great honor on the state of Wisconsin and great publicity. And so I think we can all be very grateful for Mr. Lusse. Did you serve with him? Yes, I did. In the legislature? He's been there for a long time. Yes, he has. And I won't say too much about him. Okay, very good. I tell you that you and he often were not on the same side of a variety of public issues. He's a conservative, okay. Let's touch briefly on the amendments, which I think will bring a lot of people out. The anti-amendment, speaking of gay marriage, I'm just gonna call it the gay marriage amendment. I'm not sure what amendment it is really. It's a confusing couple of paragraphs, but. It really ought to be displayed as a greater than just the marriage amendment. I mean, I think that second sentence is really a kicker, in my opinion, on that question. Yeah, and I don't have it here in front of me, but I have no real idea what it means. And I'm kind of used to reading these things for a living, and it's pretty confusing. I always like those kinds of things. You know, full employment acts for lawyers? You know, just get really ambiguous, poorly constructed, poorly worded statutes, amendments, it keeps us in business and so for that reason. But Fair Wisconsin is the group that has a multi-collision, multi-group coalition has, I think, really organized up pretty well. I'm surprised, I did not. And it's kind of reverberated on just on a bunch of different levels that I don't think the people who has to have it on the ballot necessarily contemplated. I think it passes in Wisconsin. Polls say that, I think it'll be closer because of the work of the Fair Committee. I'm very angered by the fact that it's there for simple reason, and I think it's there for political reasons, one, to get out the conservative vote. And secondly, I think it was concocted by the extreme right-wing nuts who put in that second sentence, who preclude any type of ability of people to contract through civil unions and so on to live together, whether they're married, whether they're same sex or heterosexual. Those I think are personal decisions. I think the right to contract is a personal decision. But there are people who are hell bent on dictating how people live their personal lives. And I think it's quite stepped over the line. And that second sentence, I think honestly, people can debate whether the applicability of the word marriage and honestly disagree. But I think that second, second, second sentence, when you get into unions and contracts, that was something that's completely punitive. And I think the legislature, when they were delivered that language by the real conservatives, just bought it and said, don't worry about it. But what Fair Wisconsin and other folks are bringing up is that in other states where that similar language has been put in, has led to a lot of litigation as to what type of contracts can be entered into and whether what's illegal and benefits and those type of things. Something we don't really need. Yeah, I mean, it is, I think it's primarily to turn out the voter base. And so I think it's a little cynical to put it mildly to bring those forward. But if there was a state just with marriage, it would have at least put in the constitution what's in the statute. You can't have gay marriage in the state of Wisconsin. But when you add that second sentence, it opens up into a whole area that's becoming, I think, very restrictive and punitive to people. And I think some people have said that that gay marriage and equal rights for gays is sort of the last civil rights movement. And when you think about it, I spent some time this summer, I think I mentioned on a previous show, reading about women's suffrage and just to put an incredibly long period of time it took more than 75 years from start to finish for women just to get the vote. Which seems now looking back on it pretty self-evident. But so it is gonna take a long time. How about the death penalty? I think that comes a little more emotional coming from or having more support. But nobody's talking about it much. I mean, the gay marriage amendment, you're hearing about it. But the death penalty thing is just kind of not, and it has this, what would seem to be a built-in safety net that it would be only if there was positive DNA evidence and so forth. Plus it's not binding, it's not a constitutional amendment. So I think resources are not being put into it. Yeah, that's an excellent point actually. So, but I think people are pretty horrified about the Hallbach case and understandably so. And so, so. I mentioned before when we were off the air, I think there was a debate in Milwaukee that E. Michael McCann, the district attorney, took the opposing viewpoint and he basically said our justice system is so flawed, it's racially biased, it's biased against poor people and justice system makes mistakes and therefore us as a state re-entering the arena of the death penalty which we outlawed what in 1853. It's just not a road that we ought to go down. But I wish more of this type of debate would occur because I think once it does pass, it will be used as fodder for those who wanna re-institute it in a constitutional manner or a statutory manner. I think there should be some significant discussion about the costs unless you really are willing to completely take away appeal procedures and so forth. I mean, the estimate for a well-thought capital appeal is a million dollars. And certainly in the course of a lifetime you'll spend that on housing and prisoner and so forth but I just think the costs, just from a practical standpoint but I think McCann's, he's a great guy. And just his points taken there are interesting. Just in our last few seconds, do both amendments pass? Give me any numbers. I think so. I think so. I think so. I think both in Sheboyin County and in the state. Okay. Overwhelmingly close? No. The gay marriage, I bet it's gonna be close. I think it'll be closer than the death penalty. Yes. If I had a ballpark it, I'd say 55-45 for the gay amendment and 60-40 in the death penalty, something like that. Wow, okay. Well, we're- How about the governor? Who's gonna win, governor? I'm in for Doyle. Doyle. Green. Doyle. All right, on that happy note next time we'll know just how sage and prescient we were. Thanks for joining us.