 Welcome to the Indian Writer's Forum Conversation with the Eminent Writer Nainthara Sehgal and Vita Hariharan. If I were to describe Nainthara Sehgal's lifetime work of several books of fiction, non-fiction, her journalistic writing as well as her interventions in public space, the word that would be the most accurate is political. In fact, she has said that I cannot write if I do not write politically. She has said that politics is not some event out there, but her emotional mainspring, even if she is writing fiction. Nainthara Sehgal has just published a new novel called When the Moon Shines by Day. It's been published by Speaking Tiger and like much of her work, this is a sharp, almost brutal political take on the India that is being transformed before our eyes. Thank you Nainthara for joining us. I thought we would begin with recalling the idea of India that you were witness to, your own family, your uncle Nehru, Gandhi. You actually describe it as the glittering aspiration called India. So, would you start with that so that we have a context for talking about today? Yes, I think what I meant by that was the struggle for freedom under Mahatma Gandhi, in which my parents were involved and in fact my father died of his fourth imprisonment under British rule. And this was an amazing period in Indian history because I think it was the first time, certainly the first time in India and definitely the first time in history, where class and mass fought together under the same banner. It had never happened before in any country. Gandhi brought together people in a way that cut across religion, region, class, gender, all the divisions. And so he created what then became the foundation of independent India. And this was such an extraordinary achievement to bring together this rich diversity, but which had been very diverse, into a unity which became the strong political unity that overthrew the British Empire. You describe the solidarity then as a rugged idealism. You've used extracts from your mother's prison diary. Since we are hoping to also talk about what sort of solidarity we need today, shall we revisit how that solidarity, how that sense of inclusiveness happened? Well, it happened in the way that I have described where there was the star of freedom and all these people were invited to join in that march to freedom. And it was a long march, 25 years or 26 years in which people of all classes joined. And it was really the first classless venture that ever took place in any society. I have to emphasize that because it was an achievement which was unique. It had never happened before. And it took place because through Gandhi, people like us who had perhaps never had any communication with the rural areas or the masses, then were involved in organizing things together. I know my mother and fathers went most of their time in rural areas. And of course my uncle Jawaharlal Nehru travelled the length and breadth of India speaking to village audiences. Gandhiji himself did that. And it was the first time that brought town and village together. English speaking people with people speaking the regional languages. And the slogans were across the board. There was Hindu, Muslim, Ek Ho. There was Bharat Mata Ki Jai. And Nehru often asked his village audiences, Ki iske kya maane hain? What does this mean? And then they would talk about what is Bharat Mata? And what do we mean when we say Bharat Mata Ki Jai? And there was also the slogan in Khalaab Zindabad. So across the board there were these slogans which were all radical of their kind, emotional of their kind. And people of all classes worked together, marching, young and old also together. And that India that was the idea, what they saw when they said Bharat Mata was secular, not uncontested. But what held people together was that it would be inclusive, it would be secular. You know, if you could tell us something about, not of course Nehru's vision, but the vision that held all the freedom fighters together across the board. Well, as I have said, it was this call to freedom that was the unifying factor. And Gandhiji had shown that this could be done non-violently and therefore thousands of women could join into it. Now if it had been a violent fight, perhaps that would not have been the case. But because it was a non-violent fight, Gandhiji invited the women of India to join it. And I think in 1932 perhaps about 30,000 women were in jail at that time, part of the struggle. And I don't mean Hindu women, I mean women of all classes and kinds. One of his leading followers was a Christian, Rajkumari Amrit Kaur. And many of his comrades in the struggle were Muslim. Molana Sahab Azad and Tayyab Ji and you know, some were Parsi. So the secularity came in the mix, in the fact that people came from all religions and all backgrounds to march with Gandhiji. And well, to go off the track a little if I may say that and contrast it with the way elections are fought today in the last election, our present prime minister had life-size images of himself on big screens. And I was thinking back to my childhood where as a child I saw Gandhiji, a skinny old man sitting on the ground. His voice didn't carry very far, microphones didn't always work. But that man shook an empire. So you know, there was something very unique about India's struggle for freedom. Its secularity, its across the board, class and mass meeting, the fact that it combined all the languages of India. I mean there are patriotic songs in all Indian languages. Gandhiji's favourite him, Vaishnava Janatova's Gujarati and through that he projected his image of what freedom meant. You know, where he says that the Vaishnava is the man who can feel another's pain, that was the message of Gandhiji. And of course his prayer meetings were a combination of Muslim, Christian and Hindu prayers. And even the Hindu prayer had his mantra, which was Ishwar Allah Terinaam. So it was, there was the secularity for you, you know, right across the board. If we sadly move from that point of glory and aspiration to where we are today. You know, when I began your novel I thought it was going to be a kind of dystopia set in the future or near future. But then I realised that it's very much in the present where you, about the only new label there is is you've got something called the directorate of cultural transformation. Would you tell us something about what happens to this glittering aspiration, not just in your novel but in today's India? Yes, from a huge inclusive idea of India, we are now being shrunk into a monoculture, which is called Hindu. But if you're a real Hindu like I am, I'm not only a Hindu by accident of my birth, I'm a believer. My religion matters to me. And so what is projected today as Hinduism is a travesty of Hinduism. Hindutva is a distortion of Hinduism. But that is what we are being shrunk into from this huge enriched sort of inclusive idea of India. And that's what's taking place today. And in the name of Hindutva these are the changes that are taking place. Well, I mean we know what changes are taking place. Debate has been crushed, descent has been outlawed. And we know what is happening to dissenters. There have been gunshot murders by passing vigilantes of writers and journalists. There have been mob lynchings of humble people, a poor blacksmith, a dairy farmer who are doing their jobs. And they have been lynched by mobs on public thoroughfares within sight of the police. And Hindutva is keeping quiet about it. There's even a travesty of justice, an insane travesty of justice I have to say. When the killers of all these people have not been punished and the killers are roaming free to kill more people while the victims or the victims families are being declared the guilty party. So this is the change that is taking place before our eyes. And this transformation is not in the future. It's happening now. All of us are looking at it.