 From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Pegaworld Inspire. Brought to you by Pegasystems. Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of Pegaworld Inspire 2020. And now that the dust has settled on the event, we wanted to have a little post-mortem power panel. And I'm really excited to have three great guests here today. Adriensko is a customer service and experience advisor, the best-selling author of a couple of books, Hot Wow and Punk CX. Adriensko, great to see you, thanks for coming on. Hey Dave, how are you? And Shelly Kramer is a principal analyst and a founding partner at Futurum Research, CUBE alum. Shelly, good to see you. Hi, great to see you too. And really Don Sherman, who is the CTO of Pegasystems and one of the people that was really highlighting the keynotes. Thanks for your time, appreciate you coming on. Great to be here. Guys, let's start with some of the takeaways from the event. And if you don't mind, I'm going to set it up. I had many, many notes, but I'll take a cue from Alan's keynote, where he talked about three things. Rethinking the customer engagement, that whole experience. The as-is service, I mean it's certainly the second part of last decade came to the front and center and we think is going to continue in space. And then, new tech. We heard about that Don, we're going to ask you to chime in on that. Modern software, microservices, we've got machine intelligence now. And then I thought there were some really good customer examples. We heard from Siemens, we heard from the CIO and head of digital at Aflac, the Bank of Australia. So some really good customer examples. But Shelly, let me start with you. What were your big takeaways of Pegaworld Inspire 2020, the virtual edition? You know, what I love is a focus and we have talked a lot about that here at Future and Research. But what I love is the thinking that what really is important now is to think about rethinking and kind of tearing things apart. Especially when we're in a time, we're in difficult economic times. And so instead of focusing on rebuilding and relaunching as quickly as possible, I think that now is the time to really focus on kind of reexamining, you know, what is it that our customers want? How is it that we can best serve them? And really sort of start from ground zero and examine our thinking. And I think that's really at the heart of digital transformation. And I think that both in this virtual event and in some interviews, I was lucky enough to do in advance with some of the PEGA senior team. That was really a key focus is really thinking about, you know, how we can re-architect things, how we can do things in ways that are more efficient, that impact people more effectively, that impact the bottom line more effectively. And to me, that's really exciting. So Adrian, CX is obviously your wheelhouse. A lot of the conversation at PEGA World Inspire was of course about customer experience, customer service. How do you think the content went? You know, what were some of the highlights for you? And maybe what would you have liked to hear more of? Well, I think, so thanks, Dave. I actually really enjoyed it. I mean, I actually kind of thought was, first of all, I should say that I've been to a bunch of virtual summits. And I thought this is one of the best ones I've done in terms of its pace and its interactivity. I love the fact that Don was bouncing around the screen, kind of showing us around the menu and things. I thought that was great. The things that I thought really stood out for me was this idea of the context around accelerating digital transformation. And that's very contextual. It's almost been forced upon us. But then this idea of also the center out sort of thinking and the process fabric. Because it really reminded me of, and Don, you can maybe correct me if I'm wrong here, is like taking a systems thinking approach to delivering the right sort of outcomes for customers. Because it's always struck me that there's a contradiction at the heart of the rhetoric around customer centricity where people say they want to do the right things by customers, but then they force them down this channel-centric or process-centric way of thinking. And so actually I thought there was really refreshing to hear about the center out and process fabric sort of platform that Peg is building. And I thought it's really exciting because it felt like actually we're going to start to take a more systemic look and take to kind of delivering great service and great experience. I thought that was really great. There was one of my big headlines at the summit. So Don, if you're one of the things... Go ahead, please. Yeah, I think the whole idea, and Alan referred to center out as a business architecture. And I think that's really an important concept because this is really about the intersection of that business goal. How do I truly become customer-centric? And then how do I actually make my technology do it? And it's really important for that to work where you put your business logic in the technology. And if you continue to do it in this sort of channel-centric way or really data-centric, system-centric way that historically has been the approach, I don't think you can build a sustainable platform for great customer engagement. So I think that idea of a business architecture that you put in on a little bit is really central to how we've been thinking about this. Let's stay on that for a second. Because, but first of all, I just want to mention, you guys did a good job of not just trying to take a physical event, plug it into virtual. So congratulations on that. You know, the virtual click or toss and you were having some fun eating your eggs. I mean, that was, that's great. And the drop kick Murphries couldn't be live, but you guys still leverage that. So they're well done. One of the better ones that I've seen, but I want to stay on your point there. Alan talked about some of the mistakes that are made. And one of the questions I have for you guys is, you know, what is the state of customer experience today and why the divergence between great and good and pretty crappy. And Alan talked about, well, people try to impose business process top down or they try to infuse logic in the database, bottom up. You really got to do that middle out. So, Don, I want to come back to you. Is, let's explore that a little bit. What do you really mean by middle out? Where am I putting the actual business logic? Yeah, I think it's, I think this is important, right? And I think that a lot of times we have experiences as customers, right? And I had one of these recently with a cable provider where I spent a bunch of time on their website chatting with a chatbot of some kind that then flipped me over to a human. When the chatbot flipped me to the human, the human didn't know what I was doing with the chatbot. And that human eventually told me I had to call somebody. So I picked up the phone, I made the phone call and that person didn't know what I was doing on chat with the human or with the chatbot. So every time as a customer, I'm restarting. I'm re-explaining where I am, right? And that to me is a direct result of that kind of channel-centric thinking where all of my business logic ends up embedded in, well, hey, we're going to build a cool chatbot. And now we're going to build a cool chat system. And by the way, we're going to keep our contact centers running, but I'm not thinking holistically about the customer experience. And that's why we think the center out approach is so important because I want to go below the channel and I want to think about that customer journey. But what's the outcome I'm trying to get to? In the case of my interaction, I was just trying to increase my bandwidth so that I could do events like this, right? What's that outcome that I'm trying to get to? And how do I get the customer to that outcome in a way that's as efficient for the business and is easy for the customer as possible, regardless of what channel that they are on? And I think that's a little bit of a new way of thinking. And again, it means thinking not just about the customer goal, but having an opinion, whether you are a business leader or an IT person, about where that logic belongs in your architecture. So, Adrian, Don just described this sort of bot and human experience, which is mimics a lot of the human experience that we've all touched in the past. So, but the customer journey that Don talked about isn't necessarily one journey. There's multiple journeys. So what's your take on how organizations can do better with that kind of... Well, I think you're absolutely right, Dave. I mean, actually, during the summit, I was talking, I was listening to Paul Greenberg talk about the future of customer service. And Paul says something that I think was really straightforward, but it's, I mean, but really insightful. He said, like, you know, look, you know, we think, organizations think about customer journeys, but customers don't think about kind of journeys in the way that organizations do. They think discontinuously. So it's like, I'm going to go channel one, and then channel three, and then channel four, and then channel five, and then channel two, and then back to channel five again. And they expect those conversations to be picked up across those different channels. And so I think what we've got to do is develop, as Don said, build an architecture that works around trying to support the different kind of journeys, but allows that flexibility and that adaptability for customers to jump around and to have one of those continuous, but disconnected conversations. But it's up to us to try and connect them all to make them make, to deliver the service and the experience that the customers actually want. Oh, Shelly, you know, a lot of the customer experience actually starts with the employees. And employees don't like when the customer's yelling at them saying, I just answered all those questions. Why do I have to answer them again? So you've, you know, at your firm, you guys have written a lot about this. You've thought a lot about, you have some data. I know you shared on theCUBE one time that 80% of employees are disengaged. And so that affects the customer experience, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. And I think that when I'm listening to Don's explanation about his cable company, I'm having flashbacks to, you know, what feels like hundreds of my own experiences. And you're just thinking, this does not have to be this complicated. And, you know, 10 years ago, that same thing that Don just described happened with phone calls. You know, you called one person and they passed you off to somebody else and they passed you off to somebody else. And you were equally as frustrated as a customer. Now what's happening a lot of times is that we're plugging technology in like a chat bot that's supposed to make things better, but we're not developing a system and processes throughout our organization and also change management, change management, what do I want to say, programs within the organization. And so we're kind of forgetting all of those things. So what's happening is that we're still having customers have those same experiences that are a decade old and technology is part of the mix and it really shouldn't be that way. And so, you know, one thing that I really enjoyed speaking about in voice was listening to Rich Gilbert from Affleck. And he was talking about, you know, that when you're moving from legacy processes to new ones, you have to plan for and invest in change management. And we talk about this all the time here at Futurum, you know, technology alone is never the answer. It's technology plus people. And so you have to invest in people, you have to invest in their training in order to be able to support and manage change and to drive change. And I think one really important part of that equation is also listening to your employees and getting their feedback and making them part of the process because when they are truly on your front lines dealing with customers, many times dealing with stressed, upset, frustrated customers, you know, they have a lot of insights and sometimes we don't bring them into those conversations certainly early enough in the process to help, to let them help guide us in terms of the solutions and the processes that we put in place. I think that's really important. Yeah, and a lot of the frustration, if I may, a lot of the frustration with some employees sometimes is those processes change and they're unknown. Going into it, we saw that with COVID, Don. And so your thoughts on this. Yeah, I mean, I think and the environment that employers are working in is changing rapidly. You know, we've got, we've got a customer, a large telecommunications company in the UK where their customer service requests are now being handled by about 4,000 employees pulled from their marketing department, working distributed, right? Because that's the world that we're in. You know, and the thing that I was gonna say to Andrew response to Shelley is, you know, Alan mentioned in his keynote this idea of design thinking. And one of the reasons why I think that's so important is that it's actually about giving the people on the front lines a voice. It's a format for engaging the employees who actually know the day-to-day experiences of the customers, the day-to-day experiences of customer service agent, and pulling them in to the solution. How do we develop the systems? How do we rethink our processes? How does that need to plug in to the various channels that we had? And that's why a lot of our focus is not just on the customer service technology, but the underlying low-code platform that allows us to build those processes and those chunks of the customer journey. We often refer to them as micro journeys that lead to a specific outcome. And if you are using a low-code-based platform, something that allows anybody to come in and define that process, you can actually pull employees from the front lines and put them directly on your project teams. And all of a sudden, you get better engagement, but you also get this incredible insight flowing into what you're doing because you're talking to the people who live this day in and day out. So we'll stay on that for a second. If we can, Shelley, go ahead, please. Sure, you all know, and when you have a chance to talk with those people, to talk with those frontline employees who are having an opportunity to work with low-code, no-code, and they get so excited about it and their jobs are completely the way they think about their jobs and their contribution to the company and their contribution to the customer and the customer experience is just so wonderful to see. And it's such an easy thing to do. So I think that that's really a critical part of the equation as it relates to success with these programs. Yeah, stay close to the customer. Yeah, please, Adrian, jump in. Can I jump in on that a little second? I think, Shelley, you're absolutely right. I think it's a really simple thing. You talk about engagement. And one of the key parts of engagement, it seems to me, is that, is giving people a voice and making them feel important and feel heard. And so to go and ask for their opinion and to help them get involved and make a difference to the work that they do, the outcomes that their customers receive and their overall sort of productivity and efficiency can only have a positive impact. And it's almost like it feels self-evident that you would do that, but unfortunately, it's not very common. Right, it does feel self-evident, but we miss on that front a lot. So I want to ask, I'm going to come back to the, we talked about people process, we'll come back to that, but I want to talk about tech. You guys announced, the big announcement was the Pega Process Fabric. You talked about that, Don, as a platform for digital platforms with all this cool microservices and dynamic APIs and being able to compose on the fly. So pretty cool, pretty cool stuff there. I wonder, with the virtual event, with the physical event, you got the hallway track, you talked to people and you get face-to-face reactions. Were you able to get kind of real-time reactions to the announcement? What was that like? Share with us, please. Yeah, so, I mean, we got well over a thousand questions in during the event and a lot of them were either about process fabric or comments about it. So I think people are definitely excited about this. And when you strip away all of the buzzwords around microservices and in cloud, et cetera, I think what we're really getting at here is that work is going to be increasingly more distributed. We are living proof of that right now, the four of us all coming here from different studios, but work is going to be distributed for a bunch of reasons because people are more distributed because organizations increasingly are building customer journeys that aren't just inside their walls but are connected to the partners in their ecosystem. I'm a bank, but I may as part of my mortgage process connect somebody up to a home insurer and all of a sudden the home buying process goes beyond my four walls. And then finally, as you get all of these employees engaged with building their low-code apps and being citizen developers, you want to let the thousands of flowers bloom, but you also need a way to connect that all back together. And process fabric is about putting the technology in place to allow us to take these distributed bits of work that we need to do and weave them together into experiences that are coherent for a customer and easy for an employee to navigate. Because I think it's going to be really, really important that we do that, even as we take our systems and break them up into microservices, well, customers don't interact with microservices. Customers interact with journeys, with experiences, with the processes you lay out and making sure that we can connect that up together into something that feels easy for the customer and the employee and gets them to that result they want quickly. That's what the vision of process fabric is all about. You know, it strikes me. I mean, I'm checking my notes here. You guys talked about a couple of examples. One was, I think we talked about the car as sort of a mobility experience. Maybe it makes me wonder with all this AI and autonomous vehicle stuff going on, at what point is owning and driving your own vehicle really going to be the, not the norm anymore, but you talked about this totally transformed, sorry to use that word, but experience around autos. And certainly financial services is maybe a little bit more near term. But I wonder, Shelly, you charm, you guys look ahead. How far can we actually go with AI in this realm? Well, I think we can go pretty far. And I think it'll happen pretty fast. And I think that we're seeing that already in terms of what happened when we had the coronavirus COVID-19. And of course, we're still navigating through that. Is that all of a sudden things that we talked about doing or thought about doing or plan doing, later on in this year, 2021, we had to do all those things immediately. And so again, it is kind of like ripping the bandaid off. And we're finding that AI plays a tremendously important role in relieving the workload on the frontline workers and being able to integrate empathy into decision-making. And I go back to, I remember when you all first rolled out the empathy part of your platform, Dawn, and just watching a demo on that of how you can slide this empathy meter to be warmer and see in true dollars and cents over time the impact of treating your customers with more empathy, what that delivers to a company. And I think that AI that continues to build and learn. And again, what we're having right now is we're having this gigantic volume of needs of conversation of all these transactions that need to happen at once. And great volumes make for better outcomes as it relates to artificial intelligence and how learning can happen more quickly over time. So I think that we're definitely going to see more use of AI more rapidly than we might have seen it before. And I don't think that's going to slow down at all. Certainly, I mean, there's no reason for it to slow down. The benefits are tremendous. The benefits are tremendous. And let me step back and say, following a conversation with Rob Walker on responsible AI, that's a whole different ball of wax. And I think that's something that Pega has really embraced and planted a flag in. So I think that we'll see great things ahead with AI. And I think that we'll see the Pega team really leading as it relates to ethical AI. And I think that's tremendously important as well. Well, that's the other side of the coin. You know, I asked how far can we go? And I guess you're alluding to how far should we go? But Adrian, we also heard, we heard about agility and empathy. I mean, I want an empathic service provider. Are agility and empathy related to customer service? And how so? Well, so David, I think that's a great question. I think that you talk about agility and you talk about empathy. And I think the thing is what we probably know from our own experience is that being empathetic is sometimes going to be really hard. And it takes time and it takes practice to actually get better at it. It's almost like a new habit. Some people are naturally better at it than others. But, you know, organizationally, I mean, I talk about that we need to almost build almost like an empathetic musculature at an organizational level if we're going to achieve this. And it can be aided by technology, but when we develop new muscles, it takes time. And sometimes we go through a bit of pain in doing that. So I think that's where the agility comes in is that we have to test and learn and try new things and be willing to, you know, get things wrong and then correct and then kind of move on and then kind of learn from these kind of things. And so I think the agility and empathy does go hand in hand. And it's something that will drive kind of like growth and increasing empathetic interactions kind of as we go forward. But I think it's also just to build on Shelley's point. I think you're absolutely right that PEGA has been leading the way in this sort of dimension in terms of its T-switch and its empathetic advisor, but now the ethical AI kind of testing or the ethical bias in a testing is adds a dimension to that to make sure that it's not just about all horsepower but being able to make sure that you can steer your car to use your analogy. Well, and one real quick real world example here is, you know, okay, so we have this time when a lot of consumers are furloughed out of work stressed about finances. And we have, you know, a lot of PEGA's customers are in the financial services space. Some of the systems that they've established they've developed over time. The processes they've developed over time is, oh, I'm talking with Shelley Kramer and she has a, you know, blah, blah, blah account here. And, you know, this would be a great time to sell her on this additional service or whatever. And when you can, so that was our process yesterday, but when you're working with an empathic mindset and you're also needing to be incredibly agile because of current circumstances and situations, you can, you know, your technology, the platform that you're using can allow you to go, okay, I'm dealing with a really stressed customer. This is not the best time to offer any additional services. Instead, what we need to ask is this series of questions, you know, how can we help? Or here are some options or whatever. And I think it's little, little tweaks like that that can help you in the customer service realm be more agile, be more empathetic and really deliver an amazing customer experience as a result and that's the technology. If I can just add to that, you know, Alan mentioned in his keynote a specific example, which is Commonwealth Bank of Australia and they were able multiple times this year, once during the Australian wildfires and then again, in response to the COVID crisis to completely shift and turn on a dime, how they interacted with their customer and to move from a prioritization of maybe selling things to a prioritization of responding to a customer need and maybe offering payment deferrals or assistance to a customer. But back to what we were talking about earlier, that agility only happened because they didn't have the logic for that embedded in all their channels. They had it centralized. They had it in a common brain that allowed them to make that change in one place and instantly propagated to all of the 18 different channels in which they touched their customer. And so that being able to have agility in that empathy to my mind is explicitly tied to that concept of a center of business architecture that Alan was talking about. Yeah, absolutely. And this leads to a discussion about automation. I mean, again, how far can we go? How far should we go? Don, you've been interviewed many, many times like any tech executive about the impact, AI on jobs and the typical response of course is no, we want augmentation. But the reality is machines have always replaced humans. It's just now it's the first time in terms of cognitive function. So it's a little different for us this time around, but it's clear, as I said, AI is coming whether we like it or not. Automation is very clearly on the top of people's mind. So how do you guys see the evolution of automation, the injection of automation into applications, the ubiquity of automations coming in this next decade? Shelley, let's start with you. You know, I was thinking you were going to ask Don that question, so I'm just listening and listening. Okay, well, we can start. We can go with Don, that's a problem. No, I'm happy to answer it, it's funny. It just wasn't what I expected. You know, we are really immersed in the automation space. So, you know, so I very much see the concerns that people on the front line have that, you know, automation is going to replace them and the reality of it is, if a job that someone does can be automated, it will be automated, it makes sense. It makes good business sense to do that. And I think that, you know, what we are looking at from a business agility standpoint from a business resilience standpoint, from a business survival standpoint is really how can we deliver most effectively to serve the needs of our customers, period. And how we can do that quickly and efficiently and without frustration and in a way that is cost effective. All of those things play into what makes a successful business today as well as what keeps employees, I'm sorry, as well as what keeps customers served, loyal, staying around. I think that we live in a time where, you know, customer loyalty is leading. And so I think that, you know, smart businesses have to look at how do we deepen the relationships that we have with customers? How can we use automation to do that? And the thing about it, you know, I'll go back to the example that Don gave about his cable company that all of us have lived through. It's just like, oh my gosh, there's got to be a better way. So compare that to, and I'm sure all of us can think of an experience where you had to deal with a customer service situation in some way or another. And it was the most awesome thing ever. And you walked away from it and you just went, oh my gosh, you know, I know I was talking to a bot here or there or I know I was doing this, but that solved my, I can't believe it was so easy. I can't believe it was so easy. I can't wait to buy something from this company again. Or you know what I'm saying? And that's really, I think the role that automation can play is that it can really help deepen existing relationships with our customers that can help us serve them better. And it can also help our employees do things that are more interesting and that are more relevant to the business. And I think that that's important too. So yes, jobs will go. Yes, automation will slide into places where we've done things manually and in repetitive processes before, but I think that's a good thing. So we got to end it shortly here, but I'll give you guys each a last opportunity to chime in. And Adrian, I want to start with you. I invoke the T word before transformation and kind of tongue-in-cheek joking. I know it's not your favorite word, but it is the industry's favorite word. But thinking ahead to the future, we've talked about AI, we've talked about automation, people, process and tech. What do you see as the future state of customer experience, this mix of human and machine? What do we have to look forward to? So I think, so first of all, let me kind of tackle the kind of transformation thing. I mean, I remember talking about this with Duncan McDonald, who is the CIO across at UPC, which is one of Pega's customers on my podcast the other week. And he talked about he's the co-sponsor of a three-year digital transformation kind of program, but then he appended the description of that by saying that it's a transformation program that will never end. That's the thing that I think about is because actually, if you think about what we're talking about here, we're not transforming to anything in particular. It's not like going from here to there. And actually the thing that we need to, I think we need to start thinking about is rather than transformation, we actually just think about kind of an evolution and are adopting an evolutionary state. And we talk about being responsive. We talked about being adaptable. We talk about being agile. We talk about testing and learning and all these different sort of things. That's evolutionary, right? It's not transformation, it's evolutionary. If you think about Charles Darwin and the theory of a species, that's an evolutionary process. And there's a quote, you mentioned I authored this book called Punk CX. There's a quote that I use in the book which is taken from a bad religion song called No Control. And it's called, there is no vestige of a beginning and no prospect of an end. And that quote comes from a 1788 book by James Hutton, which was one of the first treaties on geology. And what he found through all his studies was actually the formation of the earth and its continuous formation. There isn't a vestige of a beginning and a prospect of an end. It's a continuous process. And I think that's what we've got to embrace is that actually change is constant. And as Alan says, you have to build for change and be ready for change that have the right sort of like culture, the right sort of business architecture, the right sort of kind of technology to enable that because the world is getting faster and is getting more competitive. This is probably not the last crisis that we will face. And so like in most evolutionary sort of things, it wasn't the fittest and the strongest that survived. It was the ones that were most adaptable that survived. And I think that's kind of the thing that I want to kind of land on is actually how it's the ones that kind of grasp that, grasp that whole concept. They're the ones that are going to succeed out of this. And what they will do will be, we can't even kind of imagine what they're going to do right now. And thank you. And Shelly, it's not only responding to, as Adrienne was saying, a crisis, but it's also being in a position to very rapidly take advantage of opportunities. And that capability is going to be important. You guys are futurists, it's in the name, your thoughts. Well, I think that, you know, Adrienne's comments were incredibly salient, as always. And I think that that's the thing that this particular crisis that we are navigating through today has in many ways been bad. But in other ways, I think it's been incredibly good because it has forced us in a way that we really haven't had to deal with before to act quickly, to think quickly, to rethink and to embrace change. Oh, we've got to work from home. Oh, we've got 20 people that need to work from home. We have 20,000 people that need to work from home. What technology do we need? What, you know, how do we take care of our customers? All of these things we've had to figure out in overdrive. And humans generally speaking, aren't great at change. But what we are forced to do as a result of this pandemic is change and rethink everything. And I think that, you know, the point about transformation not being a beginning and an end, we are never, ever, ever done. It is evolutionary. And I think that as we look to the future and to one of your comments, we are going faster with more exciting technology solutions out there with people who are incredibly smart. And so I think that it's exciting. And I think that all we are going to see is more and more and more change. And I think that it will be a time of great resilience. And we'll see some businesses survive and thrive and we'll see other businesses not survive. And I, but that's been our norm as well. So I think it's really, I think we have some things to thank to thank this pandemic for, which is kind of weird, but I'm also, I try to be fairly optimistic. But I do, I think we've learned a lot. And I think we've seen some really amazing, exciting things from businesses who have done this. Yeah, well, thanks for sharing that silver lining, Shelley. And then Don, I'm going to ask you to bring us to the finish line. And I'm going to close my final question to you or pose it. You guys had the wrecking ball and I've certainly observed when it comes to things like digital transformations or whatever you want to call it that there was real complacency. And you showed that cartoon with the wrecking ball saying, hey, you know, not in my life, not on my watch, you're doing fine. Well, this pandemic has clearly changed people's thinking. Automation is really top of mind now at executive. So you guys are in a good spot from that standpoint, but your final thoughts, please. Yeah, I want to concur with what Adrian and Shelley said. And if I can drop another rock quote in there, you know, this one is from Bob Dylan. And Dylan famously said the times they are changing, but the quote that I keep on my wall is one that he tossed off during an interview where he said, I accept chaos. I'm not sure if it accepts me, but I think digital transformation looks a lot less like that butterfly emerging from a cocoon to go off happy to smell the flowers and looks much more like accepting that we are in a world of constant and unpredictable change. And I think one of the things that the COVID crisis has done is sort of snapped us awake to that world. I was talking to the CIO of a large media company who's one of our customers and he brought up the fact that, you know, like Karim said, we're all agile now. I've been talking about five years trying to get this company to operate in an agile way. And all of a sudden we had to do it. We had no choice. We had to respond. We had to try new things. We had to fail fast. And my hope is, as we think about what customer engagement and automation and business efficiency looks like in the future, we keep that mindset of trying new things and continuously adapting, evolving. You know, at the end of the day, our company's brand promise is build for change. And we chose that because we think that that's what organization is the one thing they can design for. They can design for a future that will continue to change. And if you put the right architecture in place, if you take that center out mindset, you can support those immediate needs but set yourself up for a future of continuous change and continuous evolution and adaptation. Well, guys, I'll quote somebody less famous, Jeff Frick, who said that the answer to every question lives somewhere in a cube interview. And you guys have given us a lot of answers. I really appreciate your time. I hope that next year at Pega World Inspire we can see each other face to face and do some live interviews but really appreciate the insights and all your good work. Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante and our coverage of Pega World Inspire 2020. We'll be right back right after this short break.