 Hello everyone. My name is Dana Davis, a proud member of Bethel Amy Church San Francisco. And we welcome you once again to an intimate conversation with Reverend Anne Champion Shaw and her new book, Worth, A Story of Favor and Forgiveness. So tell me, how does it feel to have written your first book? Oh my, I tell you Dana, I've given birth to a daughter, a son, and a book. And I would say giving birth to the book was much harder than giving birth to my physical children. Okay. It has truly been a journey on every level, on every level mentally, emotionally, even physically, with the sacrifice, sleepless nights, or waking up early in the morning with a thought to write down and put a beautiful one. And a journey that I know K-N-O-W that I was called to do. And so for that I feel blessed, I feel honored to be in this position to write this story for this season. Okay. And the title, Worth, Where Does That Come From? So the book itself, the memoir, is dedicated to my parents, my mother and my father. My mother was a woman of pictures. She was a woman who always had a camera in her hand. From the time I was born into this world, whatever occasion it was, whether it was a birthday or some kind of church event or whatever, my mother was going to capture that moment. And so that worth is associated with her and her love for pictures. And it's also associated with my father. My father was a man of many words. There was not anything that could go down when my father didn't have something to say. Okay. Look, whether you liked it or not, Gio Champion was going to say it. And good stuff. He always said good things. And so with that, with my mother's pictures and my father's words came worth. Came worth. And both of those, both the pictures, the memories, the moments, as well as the words, helped to impact and shape the line. Okay. And so why did you want to write a book at this point in time? I tell you, Dana, this, I've known for a while that I was called to write this memoir, but did not know how everything will unfold. About 13, 14 years ago, after the passing of my father was when I got the revelation from God that I was supposed to write the book. But the flow was just not there. Anybody who knows anything about writing know about a writer's flow and a writer's block. You're a journalist. You know that. But I knew God was calling me to write this book about what? And so forgiveness began with my father was what fell in my spirit, what God showed me. And with that, it was like, okay, is that the title? Is that the name of it? So, you know, what is that going to entail? And so went through a whole lot of changes. You keep living life. You keep living life. And it wasn't until three years ago to where that forgiveness began with my father, what that meant. And all of that, like I had a aha moment, like, oh, God, this is it. You know, this is the time, you know, to write it. This is the season. And I tell you, with that, the flow, like water, came out of me onto the paper, you know, from each chapter, you know, how it would be told and what to say in each chapter and the whole flow of it. And it was just amazing what I knew that this was the season and this was the right time for this to come to both. And speaking of chapters, the chapters of your book are titled with show titles, black show titles, such as A Different World, Soul Food, Family Matters, excuse me. So why the incorporation of those titles for your book titles? You know, it's interesting, Dana, we have to start with the first chapter, Our Good Times. And of course, as everyone may know, the book is centered around a 1979 visit with Good Times actress Esther O. So in knowing that truth and in framing Good Times, as it was flowing, it was like, wait a minute, you know, all of a sudden, my spirit, Family Matters, you know, came and I was like, whoa, okay, Lord, Family Matters. But it was like, wait a minute, but our Family Matters doesn't look like the television Family Matters. But yet and still, the impact of black television and what it meant to African Americans and what it meant to me in my house, my African American household was just so profound in every sense of the word, what's happening, you know, who don't remember rerun doing that dance, you know, just sweet memories growing up in front of that big television console there in the parsonage of Orlando, Florida, looking at what's happening, looking at all of the different television shows. Now, of course, we moved out of the parsonage, you know, as told in the book, where other shows, you know, came about Family Matters, you know, which came like what in the 90s, also living single, right? Yeah, yeah, a different world, you know, which was a part of the life I live. That's the whole irony of everything. That's the whole connection of life imitating art to see this show about HBCU and to have the desire to go to HBCU too as well, you know, is where Atlanta, my HBCU, Clark Atlanta University, happened. And so as my life unfolded in so many different ways, just had parallel with what was going on with other black television shows was just like wow. And so that how the story and the chapters kind of came about to be. And you mentioned Esther Roll. Now, for those who don't know, Esther Roll is an award, an Emmy award winning and Golden Globe nominated actor. And she's most known for her role as Florida Evans in the series Good Times. And so she appears frequently throughout your book and what you call Esther Roll moments. So why are they those Esther Roll moments? Why was she so important, you know, those those points? Yes, that's a good point, Dana. So throughout the book, Esther Roll, the story opens up again with our Good Times. So it opens up with almost this beautiful utopia of this beautiful, wonderful clergy family. They're in Orlando, Florida, the home of Disney World, you know, which is one of the most popular tourist spots in the world. And in this black church that's located in this beautiful booming city. So everything appears almost perfect in a sense. And that was the kind of world that I wanted the reader to know that I was born into. Where there was always something good that appeared to be happening, you know, whether it was in our church, whether it was in our percentage in our neighborhood. It was a lot of good blackness that that was coming forward. And so the Esther Roll moment shows who she was, you know, as an individual, who she was known for as millions watched her on television, you know, with with Good Times and for her to actually walk, you know, into our church, into our black church, you know, on that Sunday morning was just the epitome of all of the good that happened to the champions on that December morning in 1979. It was almost like it was like a queen, as I describe her, you know, walking into our home, not only our church, but in our home and to our lives. And so whenever you have a sense of someone of royalty, Queen Esther, biblically, there's a Queen Esther, right? As we, you know, call Queen Esther Roll, you know, walking into your life, even for a moment, even for a day, is something that is unforgettable. And it's something that really peaks the heart of what beautiful life is. And so throughout the book, through every chapter, whether it was some up or down moments, it's almost like a grief as we go back to that joyous, happy moment that all of us, all of the champions, my mother, my father, my brother and my sister, that all of us shared. Now your parents divorced. And your father, he walked out. Yes. How did you feel about that? How did that impact you? That's a good, I'm so glad you brought that up, Dana, because as written in the book, my first grief was when my father walked out of the home. It was my first grief. And I do describe it like a funeral. I said in a way, a funeral occurred that night. And I do honestly, here I am, you know, in my late 40s. And I do remember that moment so very vividly of when my father left our home. It was a heartbreak. It was my first heartbreak, you know, because though, you know, for anybody whose parents have divorced, you know, and I write this to the children, I use it the first to know, you know what I mean, that there are problems in the house, you know, other people may have heard or whatever, but the children know. And so my brother, my sister and I, we knew, you know, the arguments, you know, when mom and daddy's not getting along. But it's a hope, as it was with me, that hopefully they could work it out and reconcile and get it together and, you know, all will be happy and perfect, you know, as in my nine-year-old self wanted it to be, because that was the world that I was born into. And I wanted it to remain. But a whole dose of reality happened on that Wednesday night. And you know the day. I don't remember the day. I remember the day it was a Wednesday night. And I described all of that data in the book to the detail, even down to the prayer. And in the prayer, I said, I kept my eyes open for this. You know, it was just like, what, what, wait, wait, what is going on? You know, along with the tears, it was like, I don't believe this. I mean, you're talking about, again, in my childhood, in my nine-year-old self, a perfect world being shattered. Right. And what impacted me when I read the book, how you described how it felt when you had to move out, when people came in. I'm just going to pause for a second in and, and read that, you know, for, for you. Let me grab my glasses here. We had 30 days to move out so the next clergy family could move in. The trustees, leaders responsible for the church property would soon enter our personal space, taking inventory of every piece of furniture, China and other things that were bought solely for the personage, ensuring that nothing was taken out. There were long, tedious days as mother would mull over years of accumulated possessions, ensuring that our personal valuables were not mistaken for the church's stuff. It was laborious and grievous to our spirit. The day we left the personage, we only had boxes of clothes and a few personal heirlooms. At one point, when there appeared to be a mix up of boxes, mother quickly made things right. No, that doesn't stay here. Those go with us. So I can just imagine just being nine years old and just someone invading your space because when you're a child, you know, you have your stuff, you know, you don't want nobody touching their stuff, you know, leave my stuff alone. And yet here are these people just going essentially through your things. It was such a drastic, it was major, you know, and with my 48-year-old self, looking back at my nine-year-old self, it was like, wow, that was really, but knowing even in the moment in my nine-year-old self that this was something major going on, it was just like, and these are people that we know, right? But now there's been a shift. And now the first family has turned into the used to be first family of St. Mark and the Orlando. And again, it was crushing. One of the things that I think I mentioned the book to my mother was a woman of hats. She was a woman of fashion. I mean, Annie Claire, white champion knew how to put it together. And I loved her hats. I mean, mother would just come in. It was just like when she walked in, it was like New York fashion of the day. What is Miss Champion going to wear today? And as a matter of fact, one of the pictures in the book shows her with a leopard hat on that I do remember and a leopard purse and everything. And she gave those hats away. And I remember grieving like, oh, mother, because this was something that I was beholden to and a sweet memory that I had of her that I did not want her to give away, that I wanted her to keep. That was my mother's way of moving on from that role of being the first lady of St. Mark. And so for her, it was letting go of that, of the hat and what it symbolized, especially during those days and times, your first ladies wore hats. We all know that, right? And so that's where she was. But yeah, so it was the officers, the trustees coming in and taking inventory and this. But the pictures, my mother was like, oh no, no, no, no, hands off of that. And I remember vividly in that living room, her telling one of them, you know, no, don't touch that. And so, and those pictures went with us. Oh, those pictures traveled. Those pictures will leave Orlando, Florida and go to many other places. So yeah. But you held on to them. But we held on to them. And now they're in San Francisco, California. Can you imagine that pictures traveling all the way across the United States with us, even in that moment, even in that time, not even knowing, of course, my nine year old self that I would ever live in San Francisco, California, maybe Atlanta. That was the furthest that I would go. And that was fine by me because Atlanta was the promised land. Yes, still is in some ways. So at 15 years old, there was an incident. Yes. And your father came and got you. So how did you feel about your, your father getting you and helping you through that? That's a great point, Dana. So my father, so from the divorce, okay, I was feeling some kind of way about my dad. We went from being high on the hog as a term, all folks used to say, to just the bottom. I mean, poverty, like we would have never imagined. We went from this beautiful four bedroom home, this parsonage ranch style, the biggest, they called it the big house. It was the biggest house in that neighborhood in Richmond Heights to a two pet bedroom duplex. So our first shift was to a place to, we had a kitchenette, didn't even have a kitchen. And actually all three of us, I was thinking, all three of us was in that bedroom for my brother, myself, and my sister. And a twin bed. Yes, my brother was in one bed, my sister and I were in the other bed. And we had this one bathroom. So again, we're going from what, a three bathroom. So it was just all of these changes. And then we ended up moving to another home that was rat infested. And then we ended up moving to Aaron Avenue, where my mother lived for years. But I was just so put out and through with my father. My first job was at a, at a hotel where I was a housekeeper, that I talk about everything that happened in that book. And so with that incident, though, but before the incident, I was able to reconcile with my father and that I go into in the book where that forgiveness began with my father. So that was the line. That was the line that's there that really sticks out. So when you talk about forgiveness for me, it did, it began with him. And I was so grateful. Look, I am so the timing of that for what we would have never imagined in a million years that would happen, happened. And because I had already reconciled with my father, for me to go live with him that summer after that incident was a blessing. It was a blessing. So did he reestablish himself as your protector through that? He did. He did. He did. He reestablished himself, you know, right after the incident. I talk about that it was a drive we went. So my father was passing in Jacksonville, Florida. And Jacksonville is two and a half hours from Orlando north. And so it felt like the longest ride ever two and a half hours, you know, we drive that to what Sacramento from here doesn't seem, what depends on traffic, right? But it felt that day, that June day, that Saturday in June, felt like the longest drive ever, of course, being that what happened 24 hours before. And so you had all this heaviness. You had this extreme weight of emotion that not only impacted me, but impacted my whole family too as well. And really with everybody not even knowing what to do with what just happened, you know, everybody just in a fog, everybody just in a day. And I know me personally, I just felt just in a just in a state of just loss, you know, at 15 experience and something as traumatic as that was as horrific as that was. And and but going with my father and, you know, up the road and, you know, my father's car was an experience. Let me tell you, I talk about my daddy's car. My daddy drove a linky continental continental town car. And that's the only kind of car. That's the only kind of car my dad ever ever drove. Okay, he had a he had a green one. He had a red one. He had a white one. He had a he had a baby blue one with with a with a navy blue rag top on the top. You know what I mean? He just but that was his car. He and he will call himself he's like I'm a Lincoln man. Okay, but in my father's car was music. My love of music was because of my father. And dad loved all kinds of music. You know, even Neil Diamond. That's in the book. Okay, yes, my daddy loved Neil Diamond. He kind of stuck out like a sore thumb. I said, Daddy, why you like Neil Diamond? He said because of his stories. He said he tells good stories. And he said it's what people it's not just the music listen to what they're saying. You know, and so that's what really kind of touched him. But but in that in that ride, I talk about in the book, you know, something that happened that dealt with forgiveness. And and I kind of struggle with my dad, you know, and even he struggled with it too. You know, how a lot of times angry. Yes, yes, yes, Dan. A lot of times life will present itself to where, you know, what you've been taught maybe in Sunday school, you know, but yet you have this situation that you're dealing with that you're encountering, you're like, now wait a minute, this is not kind of add up here, you know, and how I really feel right now is really raw. So I can't really move to that emotion at this particular time. And so I know how I was feeling in the moment. And but what my father what I needed for my father, he gave me later. Okay. He didn't I didn't get it from him there in the car. And what did you get from him? And what I got from him was a hug. And that he understood it. Yeah. And so because it got more interesting, you know, the summer, you know, you know, already had this event, right? Right. So we're going up the road going to Jacksonville, okay, to stay in a parsonage. Okay. And my sister was there, you know, at that time. And there was also, you know, a house guest that was there too. So that's all there in the book. Exactly. It can read about the house guest. Yes, it's about the house guest. Yes. Yes. So what's happening? It's an understatement. When you talk about the summer of 89. Yeah, for the champions. That was it was interesting. It was interesting. Now your mom following the divorce, what did you learn about her? And from her? Oh, what did I learn about my mother and from my mother was a very resilient woman. I really saw my mother's strength at its height. During and when my father left, that I knew she was a woman of God to be able to keep her sanity, to be able to steal, be a good mother to her three children, to her trying to rediscover who she was outside of being the first lady of St. Mark. And the thing that is interesting too, is that though we moved to these various different places and residences, we still was able to go to the same elementary school, the same middle school, and the same high school, you know. And also we kept our membership there at St. Mark, which is interesting because a lot of times in those situations that we all know have heard when a pastor leaves for whatever reason that the whole family, you know, goes with it. But mother loved St. Mark. And in a way, and I talk about in the book how that building, you know, she was very much a part of the ministry there at St. Mark. As my father was, he did his role, and mother did her role. And very much loved, very much respected. And so she decided to keep, you know, her membership there and keep us there too, as well. And I'm so grateful. I am so grateful that she did. My mother is a very, very loyal woman. And, you know, though things may happen, though, you know, things get rocky, her face, you know, she's just going to trust God and she's just going to just stay there. You know, my mother's just like a rock. She had that rock spirit about her and that hope, you know, that everything will be all right and everything will get better. Eventually everything will get better. And so I learned that from my mother, you know, through life. I think about her and how she handled herself, you know, in those times where things could have, it was bad, but things could have been even worse if my mother had not remained a lady, if my mother had not remained resilient, if my mother had not tapped into that survivor spirit that she had. My mother could stretch a doll. I talked about that, you know. And so, you know, in so many ways, she set an example for me as a woman. That I know as a grown woman now, as an adult woman, I look back, and having gone through some things, I look back on how she was able to care herself. And I've taken that as my own and have been able to care myself, even through some trying times in my life. And you write in the book, there's a passage in the book, and you write it so beautifully about the time when your mother was ill, and she was very ill at that time. And even through her illness, she was still able to reach out to you, and touch you, and let you know it's going to be okay. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yes, as I get emotional. Talking about my mother. I tell you, the whole well, from that moment, it's something about my mother's hands. My mother had the most gentlest touch. The most gentle touch was from my mother's hands. And you know, mother who cared for me when I was sick, mother with a hug, mother, just something about her touch anyway, just growing up as a child. With something that even when I, you know, went off to Atlanta and lived my life, it just remained the spirit of that touch, just remained with me, even when I was physically far apart from her. And so with her, you know, having suffered her illness that I talk about, you know, in the book, and being in that state where she was not the woman she used to, was not the woman she was as far as being able to speak. And but yet, and still her spirit was still very much in tune with mine, which was powerful. And in that moment to where I went back to my wedding day, and it's interesting, for better or for worse, I talk about July 19, 2003, where Robert Shaw and I got married. It was beautiful in that our lives came together. And we loved each other very, very much. And we are now husband and wife. But it was a whole lot of stuff that happened on that day. A whole lot of drama that happened on that day that later, it was a foreshadow, in a sense, of what would happen later on, even in our marriage, that would help us in our marriage. And one of those things was something that my mother had told me on our wedding day. And so in that moment that I talk about, in that, hey, that's my mama chapter, to where she reached out and I said, mama, are you still praying? Are you still praying? And she, though she could not verbally say it to me, the touch of the hand saying that she was. And so that's what was so profound and everlasting and everlasting that the spirit of who she was was still very much alive, though she was a different woman because of the illness, but yet she was still there. Yet she was still there. She was still with me. And that moment, still to this day, as it gives me chills, meant so much and will forever mean so much, having that moment with her. When I needed her, when I needed her the most. Yes. When I needed her the most. And that touched me because I started welling up, you know, because we all have those connections with our mothers. With our mothers. That's deep. Those deep connections. Yeah, I know. Thank you for sharing. Okay, there's many people who helped you and your family just over and over again, moments of grace and helpfulness. And we'll get to some of those people, but the two people who really stuck out to me and one of them was your diabetic uncle, who kept the gun in his pocket. Uncle Arthur. You tell about Uncle Arthur. Uncle Arthur. Love me some Uncle Arthur. You got to read about my Uncle Arthur. Uncle Arthur had a very interesting life. He was married to my, my safe field with the Holy Ghost auntie, ain't Dorothy, who was an evangelist in the Church of God in Christ. So you have these two people who are opposites. You got this church going, save Holy Ghost field baptized, speaking in tongues, woman who's married to this no nonsense, ain't going to church, but know the Lord, gun carrying, you know, diabetic amputee. Right? I'm telling you, I live with them for 18 months. Uncle Claire knows. He's there. And I live with them. So you have these two opposite people who loved each other dearly. Someone once said, I think it was this movie called Lackawanna Blues, one of my favorite movies, came out about 17 years ago. And in it, the writer says, sometimes a man and woman have an understanding that nobody understands not even themselves. And I think about my Aunt Dorothy and my Uncle Arthur who had that. It was so much, I just feel so blessed that I was able to live with them for 18 years. Because I saw this couple who, you know, though he's a diabetic amputee, and so though he's, you know, limited, he's, you know, not the man he used to be, you know, but yet still, they still love each other. And they will have this, their whole little understanding of jest, you know. And my Uncle, though he was an amputee, he was very much a very active man. He would go in and cook, and whenever he felt like he would put his prosthesis on, he would get in his car, and he would drive. But he, as far as that gun, and I talk about that gun, I live with them for about a year and a half. And so I talk about what happened with that, and then I finally was able to get my own place. And he was like me, he was like, you need a gun. He said, you a woman who out here living by yourself in Atlanta, you know, and so he, you know, pulled out his gun, was like, Uncle, Uncle, Uncle Arthur, I don't want to see it, I knew he had it, of course. He was like, I'm just saying, he needs this gun, you know. And my father went to my father, I was like with that Uncle Arthur said, I need a gun. He was like, you don't need no guns, you got God. I don't care what your Uncle said. You know, what you talking about guns? No, we weren't raised like that, you know, you know. But that was my Uncle's way of protecting me. And that's how he knew, he came from his world, right? He came from his point of reference, that was his way of loving his niece, one of his niece to be all right, you know, out here, you know, in this world, living in an apartment by herself, which is interesting too, when you know my background, right? You know what I mean? But but yet still, you know, I wanted to live, you know, by myself. And God had moved me emotionally to a place to where even with what had happened in my past, I didn't feel any nervousness or anxiety about doing it. That's that's that's the grace of God, you know, that there I was, what at that point, about 15. So I was at that point about 23. Yes, about eight years later. And yet how God, you know, had rest assured me that I will be okay. And you were. Yeah. Now the next person is your godmother. My godmother image of your godmother. Yes. Yes. Yes. My godmother. So in the book, you find is she I have her in our good times. I have her in our family matters. I think our family matters. I talk about that. Because I talk about kind of in bringing in that whole good times piece. And we've all seen good times, right? And we know good times takes place what in the projects of Chicago. So it was almost as though it was like we're living our good times. You know what I mean? Here we were, you know, at once in our palace in our castle, you know, now we, you know, pretty much in this two bedroom duplex, you know, here we are. But my godmother, her faithfulness, okay, to who we were, even outside of the title of just being the first family of St. Mark, you know, which is where she became my godmother. So my siblings and I, we all had different godmothers. That was just the way, you know, my parents had rolled. So my brother, his godmother was a woman who was four foot nine, and she was the loudest woman in the church. And she was so short, I remember her name was Cece McKay, until she had to, when she drove her car, she had to have like a pillow to sit up on the pillow. Oh, so that, yeah, so her foot can reach the, yeah, it was that she drove my, so and my sister, her godmother was the treasurer of the church, very refined woman, had her own parking space, would count the money down to a half cent. But my godmother drove the bus for the church sometimes, and then she, she smoked cigarettes. She was no nonsense. And she'll just tell you how you feel, whether you like it or not. But she was very faithful, and my parents trusted her with our lives. And so a lot of times we were going to town and she would keep us. But yeah, so when we transition out of the parish, I remember her, she came with her car, we got in her car, because we didn't have a car. And you know, her cigarettes, I described that because that was one of the things, I know people talk about cigarettes, and it's a bad thing, it's a bad habit. But, but I love my godmother. I always remember her first cigarettes, and she could smoke around me, and it didn't bother me. It just didn't. And, and she was like, you know, she told my mom, she said, Miss Champ, you could borrow my car any time. You know, it's like she had to take, you know, that cigarette, like, this is rough. This is, this is, this is a bad situation. You know, but I'm right or die. Okay. And I'm still here. And that's, that's what she was saying. You know, I know we're not there, but, but I'm still here. I'm still here for you all. You know, she comes to like, babe, I'm still here. I'm still your godmother. Okay. So that's not going to change. And so when you have someone who's willing to go with you into this unknown, you know, that kind of faithfulness, that kind of loyalty, it meant a lot for me in my nine-year-old self to know I still got my godmother, you know, and she was there on every level. And so yeah, so I had to honor her, God rest her soul. I had to honor my, and her name was Grace, which I think she showed to me at everything. That is poignant. Yeah. Yeah. And as we talk about it, these things come out, y'all. You know, as you open up. Yeah. I'm still here. So was there, thank you, baby. So was there, were there any people or anyone who maybe disappointed you that you thought maybe would be there for you in your corner and help that didn't? You know what, to be, to be honest with you, Dave, the only one that I was really disappointed coming out of that was my father. And I talk about that. I talk about how I went through all of that, that I hated him. I did. He was, he was my biggest, because he was the coolest. It was like daddy. You know what I mean? What is going on? You know, why are you leaving? You know, and I talk about that even with my mother, you know, and how she, you know, reached out and I clearly recall, she said, let's, let's get counseling. I remember that in that moment. And my dad was like, you know, he was the he was the calmest person in the room. Everybody else was a mess. And that was calm. My father obviously had walked with that. Okay. And I, and now as an adult, I look back over that, you know, I was like, wow, he had processed that. And wherever he was in the marriage, he had felt like he was ready to leave. You know, whereas then we were just processing, we're like, well, we ain't ready for you to go. We still want you around. We still want you here. But and how everything unfolded. So the biggest disappointment, I could say, was that the church was very understanding. That's why I love Saint Mark to this day. Saint Mark is a Saint Mark coming out of a situation like that. My parents had been there for 13 years. That's the first family. And coming out of a situation like that, and how they were able to still love on us, and yet love the new family to his clergy family to as well, because you want to show the respect to who's ever coming in, right? But yet understanding we got this divorce situation, the champions are still here. But being able to still love on us and support us in every way. I talk about the YPD, right? I talk about that part of the people who helped you part of the, you know, along the way. Yes, all of those youth supervisors, the Sunday school teachers, I'm still very much close to one of my Sunday school teachers. Her name is Fay Hogan. She's my Saint Mark Angel. She still sends me a text. How are you doing thinking about you? And one day I wrote her back, I said, you don't know how much this means to me. That she has followed me from a child from Saint Mark to a very grown woman living in San Francisco. But it's just that kind of what church, whenever you have those kind of situations, you know, to where people like, what's happening? What's going on? You know what I mean? The beloved leadership is no longer there. As far as with my father serving as pastor, but yet the family is still there. But yet we're going to still love and support you in every way. And they did. And I know that village, that village helped me, you know, through it all, even through that incident, you know, even, you know, showing love as I came back, you know, and I talk about that. Yeah, how that has helped me to become the woman I am today. And anyone else who would like to talk about who had an impact on you positively, your points of people who were thoughtful, people who were helpful, any girlfriends? Yes, I had so many people day and oh my gosh, teachers. So my mother was very resourceful. And at that point, when we lived on Bethune Drive, it was quite a distance from my elementary school, Richmond Heights. And so my mother ended up calling the teachers, my first grade teacher, Miss McGill, my third grade teacher, Miss Brooks, my fifth grade teacher, Miss Richardson, three black teachers, they used to carpool. And so she would call, she was like, you know, you know, any Claire, you know where we live, and people knew the situation, you know, and so she was like, is it okay? You come out, pick her up on the way to school? And they obliged. And it was just even those things, you know, because they could have said, no, sorry, we got, but the fact that they were willing to say yes. And they opened up. And let me ride with them. And then after school, they would drop me off back home, just meant a world of difference. I talk about my Aunt Dorothy, you know, and how she opened up her doors. You know, there I was, I was at Clark Island University for four years on campus. And then it was just like, I want to stay, but I ain't got nowhere to go. What do I do? Right? And really family, family is the thing, you know, and I talk about that the importance of family and how family kicked in one of my aunts who's here today, my impatience, you know, who kicked in and helped out. Because we all were impacted in so many different ways after the divorce. And there's one picture in particular, I talk about our family matters, where's my brother, he's on the track, and he's running. That's the only picture. If you look at that, if you look at the pictures where you'll find my brother running, and it was symbolic, because not only was he running, we all were on the track, we were all running our journey. It felt like that, you know, at that time, trying to find our way, okay, into this new world that we were now thrust into. But family came in and helped out. My Aunt Jesse and Uncle John, who lives in West Palm Beach, who were educated, my brother went and finished out his school in there. I was able to graduate on time, okay. My sister went to live with my unpatients, you know. Now I talk about, I stayed with my mama. I talk about that. I do things. Yeah, I felt, you know, my heart just went out to my mother, because I'm looking at the single mother, you know, just trying to make it, just trying to scratch it and survive it, like the good time song. And even down to when I was, it was time for me to go to college, go to Clark Atlanta, and I described that in the book. And my mother set me free. I needed my mother to set me free, because I felt, behold, I felt guilty. I felt guilty, you know, in leaving her behind. It was like, what am I doing? I'm leaving mama, you know, and I mean, when it was time to go, and she was like, you know, don't worry about me, you know, what any mother would tell their child. Well, I would tell my children, you know, to live your life. And so I strive to do that. I strive to do that. And speaking of family, what do you think your parents and your brother would think about the book? I think they, I think they would be glad I did it. I really do. It's interesting you said that, Dana, because as I was writing the book, I had them on my mind and in my spirit too, as well. And I wanted them to very much be included in this moment, as I thought of them, as I reflected on them, and my lives with them, and I life as a family. And I really, really believe in the bottom of my heart that they are thrilled and happy that I did it. As a matter of fact, with my brother, my brother's best friend, and I mentioned him, his name is Dr. Bill Clark. He's gone on to be with the Lord. And he told me, he said, you know, your brother was working on the book. I said, really? He said, he told me this two years ago. He said, yeah, your brother's working on that book. He said, so, you know, sis, you know, you got to write that book. You got to write that book. And I was just like, because I was already writing the book. And he didn't know it. I was already writing it. And it was just like, to know that George, you know, my brother was was writing, you know, working on one too was just like, oh my God, oh Lord, oh Lord, oh God. That was just confirmation. God in so many different ways was just confirming that I was on the right track, that I was doing the right thing. That for this season, that this was supposed to unfold. And it did. And God is so, so amazing. I mean, like I said, then it flowed out of me like water. And to be able to let the world see who my father was as a man, to see him, my father in his divinity, and to see him in his humanity. And for everybody, listen, including myself, including my humanity, to know that when I say worth a story of favor and forgiveness, and I think it's a line in there where it says, you know, forgiveness is the one word that we need the most, whether to give it or to receive it. And as I said that, not only, you know, do I, is that for everybody else, but of course, as I look in the mirror as a self, as a woman, that's for me too. And it's something that, as human, that we're just going to be living with for the rest of our lives. You know, but it's such a wonderful gift. It's such a wonderful gift. And to know that that gift began with family. It began with my father. And it moved through various points throughout work, throughout the book. And it still continues to move, because that actually all continues to move. Yes. So forgiveness, as you mentioned, you know, different points in your book. What does that journey look like? What does the journey of forgiveness look like? Wow, I tell you, you know, at one point when I think I have it, it's like, hey, wow, it looks something different. And you know, it just kind of, if you look at forgiveness in the book of work, it looks different for different situations and different things. For my father, forgiveness was when I went to him, and I just burst out, I was so angry, like, I hate you, I hate you. And, you know, just let him know how I felt. And then he asks his head, I'm sorry. And he asks for my forgiveness. Will you forgive me? You know, and I say, yeah, you know, I'll forgive you. It looked like that, you know, in one instance. And then it looked a different way as I talk about it, let the church say it meant, even with my brother, you know, and how that unfolded, you know, in a different way. But yet still, I knew all was well, you know, not even knowing how that would unfold the way it did, even with our relationship. So I don't, you know, to answer, you know, Dana, it just has kind of just unfolded on various different levels, you know, being able to release, being able to be at peace, being able to know that everything is all right between you and I, or between me, and that's this particular situation in circumstances. And not walking in some kind of, because, because unforgiveness will keep you in chains. It will keep you bound. It is only through forgiveness that we have freedom. Only through forgiveness. And it is interesting. And I talk about this on the seven and look, as a minister, I love Good Friday. Call me whatever. Pastor Rob knows any good. I was under the weather this Good Friday, and I was, and I was so I was like, Oh, gosh, I was just so because I absolutely love Good Friday. I love preaching at Good Friday. Because if it had not been for Good Friday, there would have been no resurrection. There would have been no death or resurrection. And here you have Jesus, you know, fully human. Here we have him on the cross, giving his last seven words, you know, to us as humanity, to the world who's looking up at this dying savior, and they're that first word, you know, father, forgive them for they know not what they do. You know, and I go into that and how, you know, and I thought about that, Jesus said that first. You had six other words after that, but you said that first. And we know usually what you say first is usually what most important. The most important gift, you know, up, you know, that that Christ gave us and in that gift that Christ gave to us, it is what that Christ chooses for us what to give that gift. And it's a journey, it's a process. And there are various levels to it, like I said, then I've learned in life. And I talked about like with that incident, that incident, you know, that that was, you know, we could go through some things in life that are very traumatic, you know, and it's just not a whole A plus B plus C, you know, it's not any kind of set prescription for it, you know, formula, right? It's a process. But God knows and meets us where we are, right, even in our struggle, even in our hopes and in our pains. And he's there. He's the that Emmanuel, the God who is with us that walks along besides us, that God is companion, you know, who understands who understands us and where we are with that. And who is so patient with us. That's the God I serve. That's the God I love. And that's the God who's been with me in those various moments of circumstances in life, with with that word forgiveness, particularly with that as it relates to that incident. So what would you like readers to take away from your book? A lot of things. A lot of things for readers to take away. First thing to know, as Jesus said, you will have trouble or be a good cheer. I have overcome the world. That verse is very profound to know that though we face things in life, that we can truly overcome them by the grace of God and through God, through Jesus Christ, who overcame and allowing Christ resurrection story. Know that his story is our story and that we, too, over any death situation can resurrect and arise from it, from the ashes. So overcoming. The second one to know also, as far as the importance of family, I think ultimately, you know, the importance of family and how no hurt and no pain, whatever happens in family, whether it's through a parent or through a sibling or even a spouse situation. I talk about that with marriage, you know, and the forgiveness. I know Pastor Rob and I will be married 19 years. Hallelujah. Come July. Yes, I'm great. Yes, I'm grateful to God. It has not always been easy. It has not always been easy. We hit and I talk about in the book and in my mother with that about nine years ago, just a rough point place in our life that I'm married that we could have just said, this is it. This isn't going to work. But I'm just so grateful to God that we're still together. We did the work. We did prayer. We did marital counseling. We took some of that good old advice that I talk about from our wedding day. Even the book. I talk about the sister. I talk about the book. This is a true story. I'm telling the book. The sister gave me that I'm looking at her like, why are you giving me this book? I'm not this is crazy, but I got a wedding in 30 minutes. Let me go. You know, kind of thing. Again, the foreshadowing how my father, how my dad looked at me on my wedding day and said what he said with that forgiveness, you know, and how the prophetic again, the work of his work, you know, my dad preached a lot of good sermons in the pulpit. A lot of wonderful sermons my father preached from the pulpit. But I, I declare his greatest sermons were not in that pulpit. His greatest sermons was writing that Lincoln congenital call. Dad will preach anywhere. You know, his greatest sermons were a phone call, you know, telling me something. And, but if I had not let my father back in my life, I would have missed out on the whole lot. So if the opportunity comes and when it comes, maybe even up for family to create that opportunity to reconcile, to heal, to come back together and know the joy and the love in family, even Jesus on the cross looked out for his mother. Yes, mother to hold your son, somebody hold your mother. So how family is a part of who we are, as believers of God, as believers in Jesus Christ. And so, and recognizing, honoring that importance and the love and the family love that God put together. My aunt says, Lord, she said, you know, you choose friends, but you don't choose family. She's here today. And it's so true. This is a God thing. Family is a God thing. You know, but isn't God amazing? And so, and with that amazing God, that that love that Christ gives us, you know, we learn from Him, you know, and to give that same gift to family and to others too, as well. I gave forgiveness to that brother that yes, that's in the book. Yes, in the book. Well, thank you, Reverend Ann. Thank you. Thank you. And it's so much more to it. Strong root to so much more, you know, to the book that I really want every reader to read and be able to connect on some level, you know, as I give reference to various television shows, you know, that you can even connect even with your life, with your family, you know, and again, hopefully you will be able to take something with you that will help you in life and in turn be able to help somebody else. Yes. Great job. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you all so much. I love you all. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you very much.