 i'r gloriaf god. We now have topical questions. Question 1, Liam McArthur. To ask the Scottish Government for what reason it has abolished the getting it right for every child programme board. Minister Eileen Campbell. In order to develop our getting it right for every child policy, the Scottish Government established a programme board and a strategic implementation group. The board's role was to help shape the policy in relation to the drafting of parts 4 and 5 duties in the Children and Young People's Act 2014, and it met 14 times from February to September 2014. The National Implementation Support Group has responsibility for oversight of implementation and continues to meet. We recently refreshed its membership to take us into the significant phase of implementation of the new statutory duties. Liam McArthur. I thank the minister for that response. She says that the GERFIC programme board was set up to oversee the implementation of GERFIC. According to the Scottish Government website, it helped to drive improvements in outcomes for children and young people in Scotland by embedding the GERFIC approach across relevant services. At the weekend, the Scottish Government made clear to the press that the decision to abolish the programme board was a decision made at ministerial level to wind up the GERFIC board after May 2014. Does the minister think it is acceptable for such a decision to be taken by ministers without any apparent recourse to the Scottish Parliament that had responsibility for scrutinising and approving the legislation? Minister. As I said to the member, the programme board was established to take us through the legislative phase of getting it right for every child. I took a decision after the act was passed to look at options for maintaining the strategic engagement and to drive forward the implementation of GERFIC. The programme's board's job was done. We got through that legislative phase. The strategic decision that I took was to focus on implementation. That is why the NSIG group is there to provide that strategic engagement and to make sure that we drive forward the implementation of GERFIC. That was a decision that got the consensus at the last meeting of the programme board in September 2014. With recognition that we needed to make sure that we had the right people on that group to make sure that we did the right thing and that we did the right thing on that group to make sure that we did drive forward the implementation of getting it right for every child. While the board did wind down there was continued emphasis on implementation and that was done through the national implementation support group. Liam McArthur I am grateful to the minister for that further clarification but I could press her on the point about when and how this Parliament was informed about a decision in relation to a programme board that this Parliament was responsible for setting up. It does not appear to have been any information despite the fact that she says that consultation took place with the programme board members to keep this Parliament informed of a decision in which it had a legitimate interest. I reiterate that we had gone through that phase of legislation and to maintain that strategic engagement with the sector and agencies and other people that I decided to focus on the implementation which is why the implementation support group continued. It had been part and sat under the programme board but that was continuing to make sure that we could drive forward the GERFEC agenda. I can make sure that the member is furnished with all the details of the meetings if he so wishes and to make sure that we can have that clarity that he is seeking but certainly I am determined to make sure that we get the implementation of this important legislation. On the legislative phase that the programme board was charged with towards implementation which is why then we decided that we did not need both organisations and we decided to maintain our focus on implementation which is the role of the NISG. Mr MacArthur, you want that again? Yes, please. In terms of the implementation looking at the minutes from the meeting in May 2014, one of the issues that was raised then was the assistant chief constable Markham, Graham of Police Scotland who raised issues surrounding ensuring that high-risk children remained a focus. She will recall that even among those of us who are prepared to accept the case for named person one of the key concerns that we had was that we shouldn't see a diversion of attention and resources away from those who have genuine welfare issues to address the wider concerns in relation to wellbeing issues. Can she perhaps update Parliament what reassurances have been given to Police Scotland and other members of the programme and implementation boards that there hasn't been a redirection of focus away from those high-risk children? The whole thrust of getting it right for every child as we've learned from the Highland model is that it allows us to focus and to be more strategic with our resources and to make sure that we're getting it right for those children who show that level of need and that require that additional support. Retracting back from our focus and trying to ensure that we do things better for a group of vulnerable children but that is part of the whole GERFEC approach is about getting it right for every child every time. The GERFEC approach with the named person there behind it is about making sure that we do just that and make sure that we can use our resources in a strategic way that's an effective way and the Highland model shows that that works. Like I said at the last meeting that we had consensus from the board members to wind down the board. I thank everybody for their input and for their efforts to get us through that legislative phase but it was clear that we needed to turn our attention on the effective implementation of this important policy that's designed to make sure that our children get the best outcomes that they deserve. Again, I'll put those minutes available, they'll be on the Government's website and also make sure that we give members any reassurances that they want if they want to get in touch with me or write to me or they want further briefing we'll make sure that that's there but there is no hiding that this is an important plank of Government policy. We had a programme board that helpfully got us through that legislative phase our attention I think correctly is about getting this absolutely right for children that requires adequate implementation that is why our focus turned towards that implementation via this group and all the people who are involved and that include Police Scotland and others who have been contributing through our work through the programme board so happy to share any information if the member so wishes but certainly I think our thrust and our efforts on towards implementation are the correct ones. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Is there not a case for getting it right for the public? The minutes that were published were very clear in telling us exactly what was going on now that that board is no longer in existence we're not in a position to know what is going on so is it not time that the Scottish Government published all the information and advice that is being given to it about the implementation on GERFIC and name persons. Minister. I understand that the member doesn't have share my views on how the getting it right for every child approach takes goes forward but I am absolutely committed to this policy I know that it's the right thing to do for our children to make sure that we have much more co-ordinated and coherent approaches towards helping our children and we'll also make sure that if there's any information that the member requires that we can look into those queries but I have made clear that the programme board was there to fulfil a function which was to steer us through the legislative phase. The implementation is where our focus is on and we'll make sure that we're driving that forward for the benefit of children I understand that the member doesn't share those aspirations through that we set out through getting it right for every child but it is the right approach to take we are doing our best for children making sure that we get it right for every child every time and we are using our partners across the health authorities across local authorities, police across social work, across the care inspectorate across many different third sector organisations working in partnership working collaboratively to do our very best for children and if the member has any bones to pick with that then she can get in touch with me we'll let her see any information that she so wishes but I know that our approach is right we've focused on the legislation on implementation and I'm content that we are doing all we can in an open and transparent manner Question 2 Murdo Fraser To ask the Scottish Government how many farmers will not receive the 70% emergency common agricultural policy payment in December Cabinet Secretary Richard Lochhead The first tranche of direct payments will be paid to around a quarter of claimants and should start arriving in the bank accounts before the end of the year The majority of farmers should receive their initial payment in January with all first installments paid by the end of March The balance of payments is due to be settled in April and our decision of course to deliver payments from two installments is similar to the situation in 2005 when the last reforms were introduced Murdo Fraser I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his response but he will be aware I'm sure of the anger and dismay amongst the farming community as it delays in these vital payments In February the Cabinet Secretary told the NFUS AGM that everything was on track for payments to be made in early December this has not been delivered This is an issue which is entirely the responsibility of the Scottish Government The cabinet secretary cannot blame Brussels he cannot blame Westminster the buck stops with him and his department so will he now make a proper apology to Scottish farmers who have been badly let down Cabinet Secretary I say to Murdo Fraser the vast majority of farmers I've spoken to our understanding given that jointly with the industry we took the decision over what the policy should be in Scotland and the agreement that I had with the industry was these policies should be implemented in Scotland with the additional complexity that would bring with Scottish decisions over and above the already complexity we had from Europe If the policy outcome was right and even if we had to have later payments compared to the payment window last year under the old system can I also gently remind Murdo Fraser that at least we're having £500 million worth of support to underpin agriculture on the issue to the next few months if his party, his Conservative party had their way there would be no payments going to farmers in Scotland over the next few months given the Conservative party's policy is to get rid of pillar 1 of the common agriculture policy and that's what they argued for that's what they argued for during the negotiations in Brussels so Murdo Fraser belies his sheer hypocrisy with his anger today given that there would be no support for agriculture if his party was in charge but we understand the challenge of cash flow for many farming businesses in Scotland and that's why we are working flat out to maximise the number of farmers who can get the first payments and to get as much of the first payment as possible we've said we'll pay a minimum of 70% in the first instalment with the second part being settled in April given where England was in 2005 when they changed from historic basis of payment to area payments and given we're implementing not only the reforms but we had to go through in 2005 but the second set of reforms in Scotland I think what we're doing is reasonable under very challenging and difficult circumstances and many farmers I've spoken to understand that even if Murdo Fraser doesn't Murdo Fraser You can tell when the cabinet secretary is in trouble when he starts blustering in the fashion that we've just heard over the last few minutes The National Farmers Union of Scotland have asked the cabinet secretary to commit to paying 90% of CAP payments by mid-January He's made it pretty clear in the course of his answer he's not prepared to do that Will he now ask for parliamentary time to make a full statement to this chamber to explain in full the reasons for his decisions and to allow proper questions we made to him Cabinet Secretary I've already said to the industry and indeed colleagues that I will be bringing a statement to Parliament in December before we issue the letters to farmers given the estimated value of their payments I've also said that we will continue to increase the level of the first payment I've said a minimum of 70% if we can go above that we will do for the first payment but can I say that we cannot give the full payment or a higher level at the moment with the information we have because we cannot finalise the value of entitlements until we know the total number of eligible hectares of both basic payments and its greening element in each of the three payment regions we decided to implement in Scotland That's why it's a bit more complex in Scotland to have three levels of payment depending on the type of land in Scotland Three payment regions We also introduced voluntary couple support schemes to support the sheep sector and the beef sector schemes that were opposed by the UK Conservative Government initially before we persuaded them that in Scotland we have to deliver such schemes and they really have to listen to us Against that backdrop we will continue to work flat out because we recognise the cash flow problems facing farmers and crofters and £500 million worth of support will make their way to these important businesses over the next few months I hope that the minister would accept what crofters said to me last night is what payment they're going to get and that's now the crucial issue as well as the timing Would he also accept that when the Government held its roadshow meetings for example in Shetland the officials present made it crystal clear to crofters that reseeded land and improved croft land would receive the higher payment level of permanent grazing permanent grassland and not that of rough grazing 523 areas of Shetland croft land will now receive the lower payment and those crofters are now wondering what that assurance was about when they received it earlier this year I wonder if he could enlighten me and the Parliament Due to the fact that this is a very radical reform in Europe's common agricultural policy I do accept that our lessons will have to be learned and as the first year is implemented we have the ability under the policy to revisit the payment regions as we move forward if there's a case for doing that but I should also say that moving from historic basis of payment in Scotland to an area basis of payment will actually help many of the western parts of Scotland and hopefully many of the island communities so that will bring additional payment to the uplands in particular and hill farms in many parts of Scotland but it's a very radical reform we're going through there is no doubt that this Parliament, the industry committee will reflect in the first year of its implementation as is happening in every other part of the UK and every other part of Europe as we go through this very radical change in European agricultural policy Is the cabinet secretary aware that the NFUS in-house magazine acknowledges complexity was always going to increase the risk of payments coming later and admits the complexity stems from meeting the commission's new rules a limited Scottish budget with its own demands for a three region model phase transition and coupled support Can the cabinet secretary indicate to what extent factors outwith the Scottish Government's control and our willingness to listen to the union may have contributed to the lead away in full payments being made I also note the comment of the Tenant Farms Association who said that as stakeholders we have known all along there would be challenges for Scottish Government with regard to payment timings as was the case when the single farm payment was introduced in 2005 but now that the payment schedule has been indicated they can now remove many of the uncertainties in terms of the reason for the complexities of the new common agricultural policy it is because it is extremely difficult to fit European decisions into Scottish circumstances we've got uplands, we've got lowlands we've got sheep, we've got cattle we've got islands, we've got mainland we've got areas, we've got severe weather problems in climatic conditions in Scotland and others that don't have quite severe conditions so that's why we sat down with the industry and stakeholders and looked at how we could mould the European policy to Scottish circumstances and that's why, as I said before in this country, we agreed with the industry even if the price was to delay payments by a month or two or whatever the timescale may have been three different payment regions unlike other parts of the UK as well as implementing greening as well as voluntary couple support schemes for sheep and cattle and as well of course it's the big radical reform historic basis of activity to area of land you have so I think, given all these ingredients we can understand why we have these complexities in Scotland and these challenges but the key point is we're getting there and £500 million worth of support that would have not been there if other people had got their way will be delivered to food production in Scottish agriculture Sarah Boyack Can the cabinet secretary tell us £30 million on his computer system what proportion of the 21,000 single application forms have been successfully processed how many farms have still to be inspected and when individual farmers will know which category of payment they will be in so that they can budget accordingly given the financial crisis that's affecting many of them Cabinet secretary Sarah Boyack's right in that we have from memory I think around 1,300 farms we have to inspect and we're working flat out to make their way and they're making good headway through those inspections which we have to carry out before we make payments to the farms concerned in terms of the £178 million business case for implementing the new common agricultural policy in Scotland that's not just for the IT system and is over several years it equates to 4% of the cap payments over the next six years and hopefully the system will last a lot longer than six years so we have to invest that resource as has happened in other parts of the UK and other parts of Europe to deliver the complexities within the common agricultural policy in terms of the applications we have to go through as Sarah Boyack says all the applications so we can get a degree of accuracy that allows us to pay out the payments because it's an area payment scheme if you don't know all the entitlements and then you have to revisit then you have to get refunds from many of the farmers who have already received their payments that's why the wise and sensible thing to do is to pay out in two instalments as has happened in 2005 for a minimum of 70% in the first payments and the balance has been settled in April so that's the background Alex Ferguson I wonder if the cabinet secretary would accept that it was the inadequacy of the IT system that has currently cost £10,000 per application that caused the whole process to be extended by a month and it's that month's extension that has led to the delay in the entire rest of the process if it hadn't been for that, payments could have been made on time in December as has become the norm Cabinet secretary I fully accept that things have not gone well with the IT system as compared to what they could have been and that's a case facing all Governments and we've all got lessons to learn in terms of IT projects but the reason why we gave a month's extension was because of the complexities of the IT system to give the sector more time to submit the application forms so the root of that issue of course again was the complexity of the new policy otherwise the IT would have been easier if it had been a simpler policy but it wasn't, it was a complex policy therefore the IT issues arose I have to say that the Conservative Party, Government south of the border I think I read somewhere it's effectively dumped its IT system and using paper for the transition and they're not even having to go through in Scotland what they had to go compared to what they did in 2005 as well as this reform the key point here is that we have to get the payments out the IT system is now working and we're working our way through the applications the key point here is getting the £500 million out of support to Scottish farming businesses we're agreed with the industry that takes a few weeks longer because of the complexities as long as we get the policy right and that's what we've done let's not forget that farmers have been fortunate in receiving their payments in recent years in December rather than later in the payment window up until the following June and let's not forget we are where we are because of the more complex policy requested by farmers and crofters can the cabinet secretary confirm that the economic impact of delayed payments will be modest as has been confirmed by the banks and that most farms should have little difficulty funding if necessary Cymru Angus Macdonald is right and of course that the payment window which we've not mentioned and which people conveniently put aside is from 1 December to the end of June and that is the legislative payment window that we have and we've had a very good record in past years under the old system of getting the payments out as early as possible in the payment window so clearly people are comparing our timetable with the new cap to the fantastic success we had in the payment window under the former policy but in terms of the economic impact I have met the banks the banks are comforted by the fact that they know that £500 million worth of support will be making its way to the sector in the coming months they do of course urge any farmer who has any issues to contact their bank as early as possible and I do hope that that's advice that all members can take back to their constituencies and work with their clients and that should give us all comfort Thank you, that ends the difficult questions we now move on