 Art. Sure, you want to start? Yes. Alright, so hello. Art Max lab teams. This isn't it doesn't go back and forth, so I can't see you, so hopefully you're here. We're here at the gallery with Dusty Terry, and he's getting ready to start. Yeah, I think you'll stand it over because it's going to tell you a lot about himself. So hi everybody, I'm Dusty Terry. I'm an industrial designer here in Denver and I work for a company called link product development here in town and I'm just going to tell you a little bit about what industrial design is, what product development is as I understand it and as I do it at work and then. A little bit about the circuitous pathway I took to industrial design is the design process of figuring out form and function of built items in our world. Most everything that you've interacted with in your life. Is. A product of an industrial design and product development process. You know things as sexy and cool as fancy expensive cars. On down to the stuff you use every day pens and pencils, flatware, solarware, all that kind of stuff. You most of the time it starts with a sketch. You know, everybody has like the napkin sketch idea like that. That cliche that's typically how most things start. Industrial design is a lot more than just drawing. There's a lot of observation involved with industrial design and there's really the overarching purpose of industrial design is to solve problems and express ideas. That's what I get to do every day. It's I don't I don't often draw. I don't often sit at the computer and work on things. I'm usually out in the shop doing stuff or running around visiting sites, helping people out. There's there's there's many many aspects of it as I just alluded to. You can be you can be a car designer within industrial design. You can do furniture. A lot of architects have an industrial design background and vice versa. You know, all those things are pretty mass produced iPhones. Great example. Dita Roms was the first designer of the the OG iPod with the actual click wheel on it. If any of you are old enough or have seen antiques of those. And then on the other spectrum, there's lighting design and theater design and special effects design. A lot of a lot of special effects artists have industrial design background and they, like myself, have gravitated more toward the shop side of things and the dirty work side of things. So, you know, you can go you can go build. They're called practical assets. So that little grandma and that's in the bottom left corner. You know, that's that's a silicone mold model that somebody made up and it's got armature inside of it. So you can wiggle those arms around and scream and run around storyboarding for movies when, you know, they lay out like all the little comic book squares to figure out what's going to go on in each scene. That way they can start figuring out camera blocking and work with the set designers and work with the costume designers. That's all that could fall within your wheelhouse if you decided to go become an industrial designer. So that's really basic broad overview of of what ID is. So then pertaining to industrial design, product development is what is necessary for an industrial designer to help a shareholder or like a stockholder an interest person comes to you with something to work on and you help go through the product development processes. And product development is the process of bringing an idea from concept all the way to where someone purchases it because it is a product. Let me back up one second. They're also in the quickly more and more digital and virtual world that we're all living in. A lot of industrial design is starting to go toward more digital arts, you know, user experience design, how you navigate through your phone, how websites work. A lot of that comes down to the creature inputs and know how the industrial designers need to use and pay attention to. So anyway, back to product development. Product development is a multidisciplinary effort. There's not, you know, no one person does all product development. There's frequently a lot of engineering that goes into it. There's definitely a psychological aspect to it. You have to, if you're making a product, you need to appeal to your client, your customer base, which you need, that's a marketing asset then. You need to know who is going to buy your product and how you aim your product, both physically and emotionally at your client so that they want to purchase your product. And that's, again, you can break that into psychology. Color theory plays a lot in the product development. You know, if you're trying to make something that people are going to eat off of, you wouldn't want to use an unappetizing color. And that actually changes country to country and even within generations, some of those values and norms change. So it's necessary for product developers to be constantly immersing themselves in what's going on around them. You know, it's the old saying of Rolling Stone, God, there's no moss. If you're not doing stuff, you're going to get stagnant and you're not going to know what else is going on in the greater environment around you. And then you'll then be designing for people that were purchasing things when you stopped caring about what was going on outside of you. So you have to stay connected and running around and thinking about things. So the company I work with is called Link Product Development. And basically we are a full service engineering and design studio. So a client will come to us. Sometimes their idea is an Afghan sketch or just not even that much. They just have like, oh, I got this great idea. You got to hear about this. And then we'd come in and sit down and talk with them. And then we work through what steps they need to get to to get, you know, up to manufacturing and then beyond manufacturing, like just getting your product made is not, you know, the end of the line. You also have to figure out your marketing aspect, how you're, what your path to market is, how you're going to package it, how you're going to ship it. All those headaches all come into product development. And again, it's a lot of problem-solving. We've had clients come in that they just are having a material issue and it could be something that was poorly engineered or it could be that the wrong material was selected for what's going on there. The password just popped up on there. I don't know if we're sure. And then we're having troubles with this one too. It just went away. Awesome, sorry. Sorry about that. It's not going to cause difficulties. So, yeah, so we've had clients come in and, you know, they've had one component of their product is failing and they ask us to help figure out what's going on. So at that point, we have to become almost as knowledgeable about their product as they are. So we've gotten to go do all kinds of fun field exercises where we go, you know, we work with dentists and surgeons and we've actually gotten to go to surgical theaters and observe surgeons doing their job and observe dentists doing their job. That way we understand, you know, how they're moving their body when they're using parts, what the, you know, in the case of surgery, how they're laying the patient out and what's going on. And so we try to look at ergonomic impacts and lessen the impact of doing their job on them or of their client doing their job. So I'll just pop into one of the projects that we completed recently. There we go. So this company is a Denver-based company called Vivo Blue and their mission is to get clean water to some of the two billion people on earth that don't have access to it. And it's a tough job. You know, you go to Sub-Saharan Africa or Thailand or Rwanda, places like that. There's not a lot of infrastructure. There's not a lot of roads. There's not a lot of people that have cars. So when the family has to walk two miles to the river to get a bucket of water to bring it back to the house to boil it, you know, thinking how much water are you using a day? Even if you're not doing dishes, laundry and running showers, that's a lot. And that takes a lot of time out of that family's life. And it takes a lot of their ability to make themselves better. Like, you know, mom and dad can both be working or helping the kids out. What in the kids even have the ability to be able to go away from the family for a day to go to school rather than just sitting and helping generate water? So this device is about six inches long and it's just a little plastic filtration system. And when they came to us, they had just the filter material itself and they wanted a way that we could package it so that it could be cleaned safely but that it would all snap into itself so that when you're laying parts out, you don't have anything actually come all the way apart. So if you set it down, you can't lose it. Also, in a lot of third world countries and poorer communities, if you can disassemble something all the way to service it or to clean it, they feel like it's broken at that point because it's in so many pieces. So we had to worry about being able to clean it but make it simple enough that it wasn't like you had to have an array laid out of what O-Rig went where. And the way it works, it's a capillary filter that filters everything that can hurt you about down to one micron of size. So that's what's that one millionth of an inch? Oh, yeah. So many technical difficulties. Apologize. I think we just need two, there we go. Okay, good. Thank you. We're gonna stop at the beginning. You're doing great. Okay. You're doing okay. So yeah, so this thing, it'll filter everything out of the water that you're gonna drink except for some nasty viruses which don't occur in too many places. That was one of the design parameters that we had. Another design parameter that we had was it had to filter passively. We didn't, they didn't want anything that you had to sit there and pump or be babysitting it because then you can just dump water in it, come back in 45 minutes to an hour and have several gallons of water that you can use. So we had to worry about the head pressure on the filter, how it was working, just all kinds of laminar flow rate things. Like a whole lot of engineering that's way over my head. And we also had to worry about keeping the price of this thing below $3 once it was manufactured because the non-government organizations that were purchasing it to disperse in the countries that go use it, their hard stop was $2.75. So we had to worry about what material we were gonna select, not only for worrying about it laying in the water because there's certain plastics that'll absorb water and they swell and break and get soft or they let plastics out. And we certainly don't wanna be putting more plastics into these people's food chain already than there are already there. So we had to worry about that but we also had to keep cost in mind and we wound up getting this thing made and it lands for $2.25 or $2.28 or something like that. And we intended it to just take care of a family of four for their water needs for a day and now that they're out in the field and our client has come back a few times and let us know how it's doing which is always really nice when clients come back and talk to you because it means you did an okay job. But he said that frequently what goes on is they'll set this up and four families will use it and they get all their water needs met by it and all they gotta do, they can just use discharge hose off of irrigation or whatever and throw it in there. You can dump this with muddy water straight out of the plait and you'd be able to drink it. I don't know how it would taste, but it's drinkable. And so that was a pretty sizable challenge. And another aspect of this product was we didn't want there to be a ton of packaging to have to throw away. So we developed just like an easy quick easy Ziploc bag for it. But then you, if you see at the bottom of the illustration here, it takes two buckets. So that's the only thing besides the water that the end user has to supply is these two buckets. But we had to figure out a way to express the instructions in a country where most people don't read and write their own language, let alone English. So we just did a bunch of infographics and then had people come use it blind and see if they could figure out how to get the whole poke in the bucket and get it all set up. So there's many, many issues to concern when you're doing product development. And this one was really fun, but it was also kind of difficult because typically we work designing a consumer product, something that people are gonna want to get and want to go out and buy and they're gonna wanna educate themselves about it. And with this product, it's something people that they need but they don't have the internet, they're not actively searching for it. So we had to just take all of the mystery that sometimes is intentionally designed into a product because it's fun when you get something there that you kind of discover like a new way that your pocket knife opens or some way that you can back to user experience a new way you can use your phone to take pictures or set a timer or any of that kind of thing. So it was, it was a pretty challenging project and it was, again, a lot of problem solving and just a lot of fun. So next here. It still looks really nice though. Pardon me. It still looks really nice though, like you couldn't help yourself. Yeah, I mean, you can't just throw bricks out there. So here's on this page is a collection of a few other projects we've done in the top left corner over here. This is a local company called Lucy Mobility and it's clearly a power chair. Which if you know what a power chair is, it's just a wheelchair that has its own propulsion on it. You can drive it with a joystick. If you have that much mobility, there are people that have just a little a bite and blow tube to get around. But the thing with power chairs is they are very, very heavy so that they're more stable and they are not the easiest thing to drive even if you're a fully mobile person. So the little black array, you can see like these little black bits and that plate around the base there. That's the part that Lucy had us help them develop. And it is basically a radar array for a power chair. So it won't let you run your chair off a curb. It won't let you run over your friend's feet. It won't let you run into tables. And Lucy's mission started, the owner and the co-owner, it's two brothers and the owner's daughter was born with cerebral palsy and she's gonna be chair bound for her entire life. And he saw just the quality of life that a lot of people have had with cerebral palsy and you have to have someone running around. You gotta be really careful about tipping your chair or going out like being able to be autonomous. And he didn't want his daughter to have to worry about that stuff as much. So they started figuring out this radar array for the chair. And they came to us to help work on a bunch of it. And so that was a great project. We got to go to their facility, which is another great thing about product development and being a designer or an engineer or a developer is you get to go do all kinds of different things all the time. There's always new stuff going on. There's always something to learn. There's always humbling things going on. Like we all cried about five times work on this project. It's just, it's hard not to get emotional when you get to help people out, it's really nice. And again, they're Denver based and they're really pushing to get this done. I mean, chairs have been around for a long time. This kind of radar has been at that size for at least 10 years and just nobody had thought about doing it yet because nobody had thought that you could. So they're a market leader with that for sure. To the right of it is a surgical device that we just recently had hit market and it is an abdominal retractor. So the thing is about eight inches long by four inches wide to give you some scale there. And it's all made out of titanium, weighs about two and a half pounds. And its entire purpose is to allow rapid access in trauma surgeries. The surgeon that developed it is special forces medic and he now teaches at a military hospital in Texas. And he has frequently got to deal with auto accidents and gunshots. And if you don't have retraction quickly, like if you can't get down to what's hurt quickly people bleed to death in a hurry. So the two items that were on market that exist, one of them took about 15 minutes to set up but it gave you great exposure. The other one was just a handheld device and you could just put it in the wound and open real quick but it didn't, it only opened up about that big. So then he was just running blind working on people. So he'd been developing this thing. When we got contracted to help them out he had several prototypes that were not working at all. The mechanism was completely different. It was cumbersome and heavy. And we made about, I don't know, I would say 40 different prototypes trying to get it dialed in. And once we finally had one that we liked we got to go to a lab in Texas and assist in a cadaver exercise where we got to see how the device worked. And myself and one of our engineers went down there and we actually got to assist in the mock surgery that the surgeon was doing, which was a little smelly and weird, but it was also, I mean, I'm never gonna go to med school. So getting the chance to do something like that is pretty unique and it was pretty exciting. But this thing has hit market now and there's professionals all over the country that are calling this company, it's called ASR, it's called Titan. And they're calling in to Titan wanting this product. And it's great. Now what's going on along with the product development side of it, you gotta get things manufactured. And we found a local manufacturer that's, it's a machine shop. They've got parts on Mars. They build space shuttle parts. They build race car parts. They do stuff for course tech. But they're having a hard time keeping consistency with how everything slides and how it all feels. So two or three times a week, we go down to that manufacturer and we have engineering meetings and we get out little tiny calipers and we just, we're trying to figure out every aspect of what's going on with this thing. And it's way more in depth into any product than I have ever been. And it's been very interesting learning how working with engineers like all the stuff that they are concerned about and look at as all numbers and letters in some equation that they're working in. But that all directly translates to the way this product looks and feels because all those minute details matter and you gotta leave room for certain components to fit within other ones and that pushes materials around. So anyway, that has been a quite exciting project. Another one we just did is this alarm clock here in the bottom left corner. And this is from a company called One Clock. And it was a group of local guys that they just, they were a lot of people in the work and universe experience and saw me at pretty regularly and they have a hard time shutting their phones off or just disconnecting at night. So this is a more like grandparents and parents alarm clock. All it does is tell you the time and plays a song but it's got artificial intelligence inside of it. There's I think 10 seed songs and every time the song plays the AI makes the song progress a different way and it actually composes its own music. So you never have the same alarm clock song twice with this thing. And when you're sleeping at night if you wanna know what time it is instead of picking your phone up and seeing like oh, I've got a meeting at seven and I gotta do this and I gotta do that. You can just tap the top of that alarm clock and the light glows up and you can see what time it is and then it kind of glows back down and you can just hopefully just fall right back asleep. When they came to us with this they had a rough idea of what they wanted it to look like. So we kind of started with a rectangular shape and we were in charge of figuring out the wall thickness on the housing surround all of the colors. The color selection on this was really fun because we really wanted to push the color with it but it's also supposed to be something that you put in your bedroom that's kind of soothing and calming. So we got to play around with pushing pastels to the point where they're nice to look at they're not just Easter egg colors. So we gotta do a lot of color wheel play and a lot of paint mixing. We were in charge of how the knob felt like there's a click on the knob and that little decent. If you ever play with car stereos some of them got like a really light quick spin on the knob and some of them have like a nice heavy twist and that's never an accident. When you're out in the world turning a door knob like how some door knobs are just all floppy like a piece of chicken wing hanging off and some of them have a nice hard click and some of them kind of great. All that is intentional and if it's not intentional if they left it up to chance during the manufacturing process then they're just lucky if something feels good. All of those things are thought out and sought after. So after we had this thing all dialed in we made several pretty high level prototypes then they launched a Kickstarter with all of the assets that we generated. So we did a bunch of sketches a whole bunch of renderings all the control drawings and solid works so that this thing could be machine and actually made and then they had a successful Kickstarter based off of it, units are shipped and people are using them in their homes and the Museum of Modern Art has selected this to be one of their permanent items in their gift shop. They can go buy it because they like the shape and the look of it so much, which is pretty neat. I never thought that would be anything that I had a part of in my fingers and happening to it. And then the last one on this page on the bottom right is a carbon fiber mountain bike frame that we designed for a local company called Gorilla Gravity. They had started their business off and they were just aluminum frames only, everything. They welded in house, did all their tubing bending in house and they had a really core following of their clients that really appreciated what they did. They did it all themselves, the bikes were made in the US and they didn't make excuses about any of it and they also weren't doing the carbon fiber game which a lot of bike companies have started making only carbon fiber bikes which quickly prices out most people that wanna just have a fun dirt bike, dirty bike to go beat out in the woods. And nobody makes carbon fiber bikes in America except for these guys. They used some technology that I believe Boeing developed so it changed the layup process for the carbon fiber so it's far less laborious. But when they came to us they originally just wanted some concept sketches because they wanted to make sure that the feel of this new bike wasn't so far away from their old bike that they would alienate more clientele. So we did rounds and rounds of sketching. I think we probably generated two or 300 different frame designs and a lot of it was just moving a little angle here or changing the chamfer here or there but it was a pretty exhaustive process. And then the further we got into it the more they started trusting us with their vision so we wound up doing a bunch of prototype and so I'm just gonna skip to the next page. So the top left here we actually 3D printed a full size frame of several of the designs that they liked and then we built the bike up with all the components so that we could see in meat space like in the real world to make sure that everything was proportional with it because frequently when you're doing everything on your computer screen and working in solid works or illustrator, you know the measurements that are on the screen it says something's two inches by six inches but then when you get that piece out in the real world after someone's made it, like, oh, that's way too big that's way too small. So you always kind of got to do a reality check on your items. So that was part of the process building stuff up with them over to the right, the right top two and the bottom. This was another client of ours that we helped him develop assignment. It's just a dental assist tool so it's just basically a little well it's on the back of your rubber gloves so he has two little hole, two little divis that keep some of the polishing compound that they use when they're cleaning your teeth and then it's got a spot to hold some of the little scraper tools they use and then the center that just holds gauze. And when this is Dr. Jack, when Jack first came in he had a little rough sketch of his own that he had built this little strap and he had like a piece of cardboard and he was like, yeah, I think you can just put it on like a glove and you can work with it. So we went to his dental office and this guy on the right is one of our old interns. He got a teeth cleaning and we just got to sit there and watch what went on and we videotaped it from several angles and just took notes and paid attention to, we call it pain points. So when you're working with something there's like that little thing that annoys you but like, oh, it's not a big deal. We try to take all that not a big deal out so that you just have smooth sailing for everything. So we paid attention to all that and we realized that the strap going across Dr. Jack's palm was just getting in his way. So that's when we went back to the office we were watching the video and talking about all of our observations. And so this picture up here, a lot of times we'll do what we call Frankenstein modeling or sketch modeling. So we'll just take some cardboard or paper or whatever you got laying around and start messing around with three dimensional form but just quick and dirty and quick and easy. And we figured out like, oh yeah, you could just make this little kind of paper airplane deal and put it on the back of your hand. It's sticky, you got everything you need right there. You don't have to have a strap, the whole, like we're all trying to get away from designing throw away stuff, but certain things make sense. Like this thing is less than half a millimeter thick and I think they cost a third of a cent, a piece at production level now. And you can just slap that on there, use it and put it in the recycling bin and it can just go away. But so a lot of times, like some of the processes we use is what this page is all about. So this is rough sketch modeling, Frankenstein modeling over here on the bottom left. You see some actual sketches. This is for that surgical device that was on the other page. And after we had some sketches put out to the point where we, because we're trying to understand the problem we were working on, getting problem solving, once we figured out like, okay, we think this is gonna work then we moved into 3D printing. We 3D printed a bunch of the parts rather than paying a machinist to make them out of titanium or steel. So you can just get a good low level check that everything's gonna work. So that's some of the processes that we use at work. Mostly what I do in my job, like I said, I don't do a whole lot of sketching. I don't do a whole lot of illustrator or Photoshop computer time. I do a lot of the physical side of things. And I make sure that designs work and that they're sound. I do a quick gut check on some engineering, no math calcs or anything like that. But just like, does this make sense? Can we actually build it? Cause there's a lot of things you can design that you can't reliably build. Square corners inside of pieces, they're gonna be machined. You can't machine a square internal corner from only one dimension. You gotta be able to pop out of it. And if it's a pocket, you can't get in there to do it. So there's a thing within industrial design and engineering that's called design for manufacturing. And that's a lot of what I do is we look at what process we're gonna use to build an item. If it's injection molding, which injection molding is basically you have a cavity mold that clamps together real hard. And then they inject molten plastic into it. And it sits there long enough that it cools down and solidifies and opens up, pops the part out, slams back shut and they squirt more plastic in. And you can make hundreds of thousands of parts with that and they're all exactly the same. That's how most of the plastic housings, like if you have a plastic housing on your phone or just looking around here or all these microphones and everything around me, all of those housings are most likely injection molded. And there's different design parameters that you have to adhere to for injection molding versus machining. The same object, you could sketch it and draw it the same way and it looks the same. But if it's made out of metal versus being made out of plastic, they have to be a different process. And those processes require the attention of a designer and an engineer to make them work. So then that's what I do at work and who I work for. So now the point of me being asked here today was to talk about the winding pathway that I took getting here. And I was definitely not a traditional student. I grew up in rural Wyoming, the whole state's rural. I grew up in the middle of nowhere in Wyoming. And I wasn't a great student. I wasn't particularly engaged with school. It just never really interested me a whole lot. I'd rather have been outside skateboarding or playing music with my friends or just any kind of horse and off other than being in school. And so I took a long time to get figured out what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I'm 43 and I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up. So I'm still working on that. But I had a lot of different jobs on the way and they've all informed what I do for a living and how I do what I do. So at points in my life, I've been a wildland firefighter and that taught me that, no matter how hard things get at work, you can't give up. While firefighting, if you give up, the force is gonna burn down. You're gonna get burned over. Like you have to keep going until you're done. And that translates straight into so many of the projects that we get, we'll get just a stopped problem and you'll spend, I mean, I've spent weeks working on problems that work before trying different inputs, getting different outputs, but still just failing, failing, failing, failing. And then when it finally works, you think, man, that is the dumbest thing. How did I not see that? But all answers are obvious once they're in your face. It's just hunting them down. It's the hard part. So I did, I was a wildland firefighter. I was a roughneck up in Wyoming, which roughnecks is a colloquial term for oil and gas workers. So I used to drill for a natural gas up in Wyoming. And that by far is the most dangerous job I've ever had. I saw some people get hurt pretty bad. I don't have any of my own top front teeth because I got smashed in the face with a big pipe when I was at work. And that really taught me that no matter what safety practices are in place, no matter what OSHA says, no matter what your boss says about what's safety, it's up to you to look out for yourself. Make sure that you've got the right protective equipment. Make sure that you know what's going on around you. And again, that comes back to observation. Just like go into a work site and seeing what your clients doing for their product. I work in the shop a lot. I work a lot on a lot of sharp stuff, a lot of hot stuff. And I weld frequently, I machine things. Like I could lose fingers most days at work. And you got to really just be paying attention to what you're getting into and what you're doing. And that level of intimacy with your project, like you're paying attention to what you're doing. And a lot of times you can catch problems before they occur or as they occur. And you can look at a part, like say you're machining something, you can pull a part off of a mill and you can interpret what's going on with the part that you're cutting by what the cut material looks like and what's left over looks like. You can tell tool chatter, if you're moving too fast, if you're moving too slow, if you're burning up parts, there's a lot of it you can learn just by observed. I had a psychology degree, that was a job I had for a while. And that taught me a lot about the human factor side of design. We're all creatures, we all desire things, we all like things, we all dislike things. And a lot of the frustration that comes in the product universe is expectation not being met. So if you have a product that you say it's gonna do X, Y, or Z and it doesn't do those things or it does them poorly or if you have a product that does those things but the market that you're selling to is a type of market that have a higher expectation than what you can meet. You're gonna have disappointment, you're gonna have clients upset, you're gonna have people returning your product, you're gonna have people smashing your product and then bashing you on social media or out in the streets. So it helps me a lot at work because I can sit with clients and talk with them and it helps in meetings and just in general that you can read body language pretty well and not that any one of us cannot do that but it helped me have the language to express that and I talk with my colleagues and my teammates at work about sometimes we'll be talking with clients about projects and we also have a lot of clients that they come to us and their invention is their baby. It's this very, very personal thing and it's nobody wants to hear that their baby's ugly. So when you tell somebody their idea, not just gonna be like, that's a bad idea because you're just gonna alienate people that are around you, you gotta have tact and you can also tell like if you're starting to like touch and nerve with people or not and it just, that helps that understanding. And I've been a bicycle mechanic, I used to race Pride of Tear downhill for quite a while and that was actually one of the first things that made me appreciate mechanics and started kind of guiding me toward industrial design because as I was riding these bikes they need maintenance all the time and you can just start twisting wrenches and pull stuff apart and really trash things out and I did that a few times for sure because I learned that fires hot by putting my hand in it but it really made me appreciate all the thought that went into how all these assemblies were put together and then that made me seek out like, okay, well, how do you make this stuff? You gotta pack an O-ring into an orifice. How do you know that that O-ring is not too tight or not too loose so it'll keep oil out or in but that it won't not let your fork cycle or whatever, like how your car just runs for hundreds of thousands of miles needing only a minimum of maintenance versus even 50 years ago, you had to adjust your balance and take care of a lot more stuff and there's a whole theological argument about is it good that we don't have to maintain our own things that we won't get into today? But yeah, so I was all over the place when I was younger, I did community college when I was right out of high school because I thought I had to go to college because that's what my folks wanted me to do and I was the first person in my family to go to college. So it was important to them that I went and when I got there, that's when I went and got my psychology degree. I just, I didn't know that it felt real to me because it wasn't really what I wanted to do and I was still kind of lost. And then, so that's when I went and was a firefighter and was a roughneck and I built houses. I just, I bounced around and did a lot of different things because I'd never found anything that really spoke to me. And then when I finally learned about industrial design, that really, it's like, oh man, I can sit and think and I get paid to think and take my time and really care about something and draw and work on things. And then I can also have days where I get to go build stuff because that's where I feel the most creative and excited is when I'm actually building things. A lot of times in the shop at work, I'll just be doing stuff on the fly and kind of taking notes so that when we have to go back and recreate what I just concocted in CAD, you need to have measurements and what worked and what didn't. But that's where I really feel like a creative person is when I get to be in the shop and work on things and work with my teammates to solve problems. And we bounce back and forth off of each other. And a lot of times it takes two or three brains getting on a problem where you then you go, oh, aha, that's what we've been missing. And that was something that when I was in school, I always hated group projects because you always have to worry about somebody not doing their job, somebody not taking care of their stuff, somebody's out sick, whatever. And it's once a semester when you're, well, at least when I was in school, it was about once a semester per class where we had a group project. Nobody works a lot. So embrace group projects if you do go to school and use those challenges when you have a classmate that's just dragging their feet and not doing much, try to excite them, see why they're not interested in what's going on. And the same can work with clients. And when we have clients frequently, it's insane because it's not cheap working with anyone outside help. And it's pulling teeth to get them to come in and actually engage in projects. And a lot of times that boils down to, they feel out of their element or a little uncomfortable or a little intimidated. And it's a hard thing to express that especially as a business person because you're expected to know everything and you're expected to lead the way. And if you're like, oh man, I kind of got doubts about this or I really don't know, I really don't know the words that you're using. Like those are hard questions to ask until you ask them or until someone asks that of you. So, yeah. So, I think that's a quick nutshell about Dusty Terry. So, hopefully some of it made sense. Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, I think that's great. And I think you really covered so many aspects, right? The interpersonal as well as the speaking. Yeah, I think, and I may be a little more touchy-feely than other designers, but I think that you can't have good product design, good product development without understanding who it's for. And you gotta just dive in and ask questions and be vulnerable. And I've done a lot of different stuff in my life leading up to this. And the reason that occurs is because I said yes to a lot of different things. And I think that that's an important thing to do is just if you're living in, if you've never been in a country before and you have friends that are from a rural state, like when you go away to school or when you're visiting in the summertime, go out and do stuff that's not what you do every day and go be observant. Everything you do be observant. It only makes you better at talking to the person next to you or understanding someone else that's not coming from the same place you are. It's like if you're trying to speak with someone that doesn't speak English or doesn't speak a whole lot of English, it's always like once you get talking with each other it's always fun. And you help the other person along and you laugh when you make mistakes. And that's the same way in design and in engineering. Hopefully you don't make too many mistakes, but hopefully you have a good rapport and observation of what's going on. So you can speak to one another and you can help one another get past the point that you can't get past. All right, I think Allison, you ready? Allison, I'm ready. All right. I'm gonna let you change the camera. Hi, how's it going? Good, I'm Allison. I'm going to see you. That was great. Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much. So yeah, I'm here on behalf of our high school interns to just ask you some questions like from their perspective if they're interested in pursuing this career. And first, like we've gone over some of your like most memorable projects that surgical device was really amazing. On like a typical workday like yesterday or today like what usually is the routine for you? So our shop is pre-laid back versus a lot of other larger commercial outfits. There's only six of us. We have three engineers and three designers. We work four tens. So we always have Friday, Saturday, Sunday off unless there's something heavy going on that we gotta take care of. But typically get in in the morning, on Monday morning as we do a team meeting and go through all the projects we've got to do where everybody kind of gets their quick to go list. And then so today is a good example. I came in today and sat down and just sketched on a whole bunch of concepts for clients that we had coming in this afternoon and then prepped the conference room for those clients being there. And then once the clients got there I pivoted to another project and started working on some stuff in our shop by doing some equipment maintenance and doing some tool setup. Typical days are not typical is what I would say. We do pretty different stuff every day. I mean, it's all under the same discipline but at any time we've got six clients that we're working with, six to 10. And it just, it depends on what needs done. Sometimes I'm just running parts on the mill or on the CNC machine. Sometimes I'm actually delivering parts to clients. Sometimes I gotta go paint stuff. It just, yeah. So just whatever needs done is a typical day. Yeah, that's great. It's always a surprise. You get Fridays. Yeah, Fridays always overflow. So if we don't get something done during the week that we promised on Monday, like we'd come in and get it taken care of. Okay. And a lot of times too we do, like we've done, we had you all in this summer and did a quick design charrette and kind of gave like a really reader's digest condensed version of product development. So we typically do that on Fridays. That way it doesn't cut into the productivity at work but we still really wanna help out and get back. So like tomorrow I have a student come in and he's just gonna have kind of a private tour of the shop because he's interested in industrial design. So he's come in with one of his teachers and I've got two hours blocked off to show him around and talk. So that happens not super regularly but it's been going on more and more. So that's been cool too. So yeah, a typical day is atypical. Yeah, that's great. So yeah, if you like a set schedule and you know what you're doing every day all day, might not be the universe but also again, that's our shop's kind of unique because we all have to wear a whole bunch of hats and do a bunch of different things. And we're all creative types here. So that sounds like pretty exciting overall. A lot of different projects, that's how I work. So you talked about your love of biking and how that kind of led you into understanding design and industrial design and you have worn a lot of hats before that. Did you kind of have to go back to school and continue education in order to get this industrial design job that you have? So no, so I came down to Denver specifically to go to school for industrial design and then so going to college for anything, they teach you just enough to be dangerous and then tell you to go get a job. So there's a lot of on-the-job training. I've been working with the outfit I've been at now for 10 years and I am still constantly learning. So besides everything being different all the time, I get to learn all. Frequently, if there's new software coming online or if we get a new piece of equipment, I get to go get training on that on top of a lot on my own time when we get new clients in and I don't know anything about their field at home, I'll sit and research and try to learn what they're working with doctors. They use a lot of words I've never heard people. So I just kind of go sit and like research terminology and understand like, okay, this guy's a trauma surgeon. What does that entail? You know, understand that. So I didn't have to go back to school to get my job. I had already gone. I will also say that I could have gotten my job without the schooling that I went to for what I do because I already kind of knew how to do it and I, going to school definitely got me that job when you go apply at a lot of places, like, oh, we need an industrial designer type one. Like, well, what does that mean? That's a bachelor equivalent of experience. So if you have experience in the field, if you wanna go, you can take like industrial design classes on YouTube and said, you just have to be the one that rides your own back to do all the sketching you've gotta do and you have to seek someone out to critique your work and understand like, what's adequate and what's inadequate, what's good or bad, whatever. School is not a concrete pathway to a job, but it is like a line of sight pathway to a job. Like once you're graduated with that degree, if your portfolio is commanding enough, you can walk in somewhere and like, here's what I can do. Like that's my credentials at that point. And so like we look often at interns that come in and it's, we want to bring them in to educate them, but we also wanna bring someone in that's at a level that we can use their skills because we're helping them, they're gonna help us. And if we get somebody, you know, you can look at 10 kids that are in the same program and there's gonna be 10 different levels of aptitude. And we aren't always looking for just the highest aptitude person. Attitude matters a whole bunch. I'm getting off track on the schooling question, but it's a lot of what you put into it. Yeah. Yeah, well, it does, the next question I was asking was about personal qualities, abilities that are important for this job. And I think that you're kind of answering that. You talked about like staying on top of your work and just like keeping good track of your own projects. I like what you're saying about attitude. Like that's an important question because, you know, you did get this bachelor's degree, but there are other more important skills you're saying. Yeah, like one of the main things that we look at when we're looking at a new hire is accountability for sure. And they've got to be able to get along with the rest of us that are at work because we're all a team and we don't have our own offices. We all just have our desks run past each other, talk to each other. A lot of times if there's, you know, six projects going on, a couple of people run a project and we just check in with each other. Okay, well, we're doing this. Like does it seem like it's a good idea? So being able to design and the engineering. So being able to get along interpersonally, and that doesn't mean like we all have to be good friends, but you know, it's just like anywhere else in life. There's someone that drives you crazy. You can't just go hit him in the face or yell at him. You got to find common ground and have a way to work together. And hopefully the company you work at isn't hiring people that their personalities are completely divergent from the people that you're working with. Yeah, and the design kind of happens like around a table. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, there's not a whole lot of design by committee, but yeah, that goes on. And then not having a huge ego either. I mean, doing design and engineering, there's a lot of ego in product development and in business. And then if you're cranking out designs for people and you got something that your heart's just set on and they don't like it, you can't let that hurt your feelings. Just if people are being critical, take that as a, hopefully you can take that as a way to, okay, well, I wanna learn what they like and you get better at not designing what they want, but you get better at design because you have a broader reference point at that point. Great, so how do you measure success for yourself in this career? Like what do you find? I feel like I can kind of relate this to this other question about what you find most satisfying in this career and most challenging. And then what are your goals that would make you feel successful as you keep going? So I think that measuring success, hopefully for everyone is just fulfillment and happiness. You can get paid all the money in the world and have time off and all that, but if you're just bummed when you go to work, you're not happy, you're just, you're doing like, I gotta go make the donuts. It's just, it's not great. So success and in my mind, like success is being challenged every day and having the, your boss trusts you or your supervisors, whatever the, they trust you to fail better. We fail all the time at work and get stuff wrong. Nothing ever works the first try, but we know that and we understand that. And even when there's a lot of pressure on because it's a low, a tight timeframe project, it's like, oh yeah, screw it up. Okay, well, what do we learn from that? And that constant learning and self-reliance, like that makes me feel successful. And I get to be creative and solve problems. And when I actually do solve a problem or when I'm part of like the group of us that solves a problem that feels really good. And that's when I feel successful. Days and weeks when we're, I was talking earlier about just beating our heads against problems with projects. When that stuff's going on, like those days, you kind of go home kicking rocks and you're not the most excited about it, but that just makes it feel so much better when you do get it right. And you know, there's a solution out there somewhere. Sometimes the solution that you find is still not the right one because it costs too much or it takes too long to make it or it's just too handcrafty. You know, there's a lot of stuff you can do design-wise. Where you're like, oh, this works. I just got to file this little piece out and manufacturing, but nobody's gonna pay somebody to sit there and file that part out because there are 20 minutes of work is gonna cost more than the entire rest of the production scheme. So then what was the second one about? Oh, well, we were talking about like what's satisfying for you and you're talking about solving problems, getting new problems every day. Yeah. I'm not doing the same thing over and over. I could not be a factory worker. I've been a production welder before a little bit and just done the same thing like 300 times. And you get really good at that little bit, but man, it's mindless. And it just, you have all that time. Like once you get good at something or not good, once you get adept at something, then your mind stops being just hyper focused on that and like, okay, am I doing this right? Am I moving my hands right? Like whatever it is. And then your mind just wandered. My mind just wanders. And if I'm just doing the same thing over and over, I'm like, man, I could just be a robot. Like this is no fun. Definitely. In one day, yeah. But the stories that you shared about like going to this cadaver lab, going to see a dentist and like these real life opportunities to learn, that's pretty satisfying. Yeah, that's those days, I definitely feel like I have a little kid dream job for sure. Yeah, that's great. So one of the questions that we ask a lot of the creative people is if you now or if you've ever had to like have another gig in order to support this job or if this kind of like, just started for you as a new career move and you were just able to like fly into it. So I had kind of a fairytale finding of my job. I had, I came here for school and immediately upon graduation, I moved to Portland and Portland, Oregon. And that was in 2008, like when the economic downturn went on. So I think there was 26 or 28% unemployment when I lived out there. So I went to work for a company that contracted for FedEx and was a millwright. So we just went and built FedEx facilities. And I did that out there for a couple of years. And then I got laid off for a while. And as soon as I moved back to Denver, I ran into an old classmate of mine when I was at a motorcycle shop buying some parts for my bike. And he was working on this motorcycle project that I was part of with all these guys. And I just kind of flip it for like, oh yeah, I'm back in town. You guys need help on all that, let me know. And I was looking at going back to work illegal peats making burritos just to keep the lights on, you know? And I got that job. So I just, it came at just the right time. And I've definitely done other stuff while I've been working before. And it's just what you got to do to support whatever lifestyle you feel like you need to have. I'm kind of a dirt bag and can squeeze a pretty thin dime. So I don't need a lot of money. I also, I'm not, I don't have a reward system in my soul that like, oh, the more money I get, the better I'm doing. And, you know, I like, I like to be able to sleep at night. And that's why I like all the projects we've done that were a wheelchair project and the water project. Like those feel really good because we get to help people out actually. Yeah. You know, I could certainly make way more money doing defense contract stuff, but I don't really want to make things that kill people on purpose. Right. Yeah. Well, in the creative constraints that you're dealing with, like I'm sure just like for the water project, having to keep it at 275. Yeah, that's a, that's like a big creativity challenge. But it's nice having guardrails too. I mean, being a creative person, that someone's like, oh, just do whatever you want. Oh yeah. My socks are like, well, Is there a pottery? I'm like, what do you want? You know, so having, having like, I feel like I'm a fairly creative person, but when someone just does like do whatever you want, I just, I close off. I relate. I don't know what to do. It gave me at least like one bumper to bounce off of, you know. Awesome. I have just one or two more. Okay. So one of these questions I really like is who are your influences? Who? In what regard? As for design mostly, or anything that kind of, I think mostly for design, but if you can think of something that relates, that's good too. So my design influences, I really like all the, the streamline era designers. So that's, you know, pre-40s, but after the 20s, they, there's like that's when, that's when industrial design like really came into its own and was a term that more and more people knew. Norman Belgettys, Raymond Loewey, all the, all the brawn product line from the 70s is great. A lot of the new stuff that is coming out like motorcycle design is a great example. Everybody's really into all kinds of like multi-planar surfaces right now. They all kind of look like B2 stealth bombers, like they're supposed to be radar proof. And that it kind of just looks like a graphic art tessellation, not really super into that, but, and I don't really have any designers that I just, like, oh man, you know, Leith Stark is great, but I don't, I don't like seek out his stuff all the time, you know, intentionally. I, we kid around at work and call the, we call Google the idea generator. And it's, you know, you got to be connected and see what's been done and what's out there. And that's why I like looking at older stuff because I see what people have already done. I don't like to look at contemporary stuff as much until I'm in a project, because I don't want that to kind of pollute what I'm thinking of. You know, there is contemporary design language. And if you're not careful, you can look dated real quick, especially with the advent of social media and how much, you know, you pop your phone open and like, oh, this just hit market yesterday because, you know, 10 years ago, it took a couple of months to a couple of years to see the new design trends emerging. And now, you know, if you follow design bloom or some of the bigger Instagram pages, you know, like there's a design firm called Kiska, they do all the styling for KTM and their stuff is always great. They do great color work, they do great surfacing. And you can see that right away, like the day stuff drops or even when they're showing prototypes, but I think that can negatively impact your design language within yourself. Great. Yeah, no, I agree, I'm a graphic designer, so yeah, I understand what you're saying. Yeah, you see like, you know, what was it five years ago? It was like cream, brown, and blue, like that was like the great color, I don't know. And then all of a sudden it's just like everything. And it's like, okay, well, that's gross. And that's, you know, that's what I was talking about with the multi-planar services. Like it's the same thing, like, oh, that's cool. And then it just got ran into the dirt. Right, and it just flips pretty quickly. Yeah, and there's like, okay, well that's, I want something else now. So let's see, what is a good close question here? Cause, I mean, you got some really good stuff. And if you feel like you asked them, maybe you see them here, this question too. Yeah, if anyone has a question, please. I was actually going to say, so, I understand he is multi-disciplinary, he came at it, and prior to that, we've been through a lot of disciplines. But what specifically was hard in pivoting into the industrial environment? What did you feel like you had to master to compensate for all this challenging? Sitting still, sitting still, like sitting and doing solid works and getting to the point with solid works where I can tell it what to do, instead of just designing within the constraints that it pushes at me, that's, I have, I still struggle with it. Like I'm sitting here bouncing, I'm really trying not to fidget, but I, yeah, sitting still, sitting down sketching where you got to crank out, 50 concepts in an hour or something like that. I have that pinpoint focus difficulty, but if I'm doing handwork and working on something, and moving, I feel just fine, but I gotta just sit there and then I don't feel like I'm working. And that's just from doing construction and all the stuff I did for a living before going to school. But that was one of my hardest things in school, really talking in front of people is like pulling fingernails for me. So sorry if I'm saying mumbling a bunch, but that was a tough thing in school too, was when you got to get up and present and then defend your ideas, because you can just draw like, oh yeah, I just like, I like that shape. Well, why do you like that shape? Digging into that, that was difficult too, rather than just like immediate, like forebrain, like, oh yeah, that looks cool. That's why. Well, maybe you'll come back to you. That's a question. As you or the company were implementing any soft goods products? We don't do soft goods. We've been approached about it, but we've got, there's some guys in town that we're buddies with that have their own soft goods outfit. So we usually just push stuff their way. So we're just like, we're just like, we're just like, we're just like, we're just like, we're just like, we're just like, we're just like, push stuff their way. Yeah. And then vice versa. If they get hit with hard goods, they'll come at us. We've talked about getting into it and all of us are excited to get after it. It's just, we got to, it's got to be the right project so that we're not learning on a client's dime because it's, obviously you can talk about soft goods. They're quite a bit different like the way you do tech pack versus control drawings and all that. So it's just not something that we've all honed ourselves in. Talking about how you were first generation graduation, going to college and everything like that. And you went to community college to get your associates of psychology. How did that whole transition happen? Like, throw all those bodies and stuff like that. Like, who do you personally, how hard was it for you to be like, okay, well, let me figure out something that I want to do rather than like, my parents having that whole like idea, like, oh, go to college. Do this, because me personally, I was in the same boat. Like, I was going to get my associates of psychology and become a psychologist and become a therapist because of my parents, because of immigrant parents. My parents are immigrants with this whole idea and the whole pressure with it. Like, really made me think of like, well, do I want to go to school because they're telling me or do I want to become this person or do I want to become this person because I want to be this person. I don't know if that makes any sense. Yeah, so it was, so my folks just wanted me to go to school because like my dad's an electrician and he was always outside and in crawl spaces and working hard. He just always said like, man, I want you to do better than I did. And I want you to, and his generation, that's going to college. I have so many friends that are my age that are plumbers and electricians and they make way more money than me and they have zero student debt. I wish I wouldn't have been such a turd when I was a kid and gone to work with my dad a few days. Because what he does is great. I wanted to go to school for myself because I like learning when I'm engaged. High school is just torture. But like once you get to college, it's like, oh man, there's so much to do. And then, so I got my associates in psychology and I worked for two years in that field before I went further. Because it's like, well, I'm going to have to probably get a PhD to do anything. And so I wanted to check it out. And the job that I had really hurt my soul, dealing with what I was, just seeing what my clients were dealing with was I couldn't separate that from life. So I got out of that and started just doing jobs. And then when I finally decided to go back to school, it was a completely different experience because I really wanted to go. And I had wanted to pursue psychology, but I just didn't, I mean, I was right out of high school. I just really didn't know much else. And then so when I went back to school in my 20s, I was like, yeah, I got a full-time job. I'm doing a full load of classes. I'm not living in the dorms. And like I still have free time, you know, because I was just like eating it all up and really, really wanting to do it. So I don't know if that answers your question. I know. Okay. Thank you. I'm trying to direct you. You can direct. Sorry. That's okay. I used to be in charge. I'm just sitting with the question like, yes. You did it because you have to. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the time span for the projects and like the processes you went through and about time. Sure. So the Lucy project, that is still ongoing because when they have new needs, they get ahold of us. Like if there's some industrial design assets we can give them, that project was already funded. So that was great. They knew they had a budget that they could work within. And then we like, we gave them a price and kind of met in the middle in there. But that was probably a, I think it's been a three year effort to this point to get it to where they got to go to market was about two years. And a lot of that was just waiting for them to get access to another brand of mobility chair that we could get in. And cause we wanted to make that plate so that all you had to do is bolt it on there. And a lot of those chairs use the same base. So we figured that out after getting three or four different horns of them. But that was, that's about the longevity of projects with us usually is two to three years. Typically clients will come in and if they engage us for industrial design assets like a lot of times companies will come in and they know they need to go get funding. So they got to do proof of concept. So what they really do is we give them a whole bunch of concepts and then they pick like the top three or four that they like. And then we do some really, really nice renderings of those do some environmental shots and stuff with them. And then they take those like they take that as part of their pitch deck and they go to an investor and they say, hey, I got this great new mousetrap. It's gonna take care of everything. And then that way they get funding and then they come back and we're like, all right. So we like these three concepts. Now let's do like risk feasibility and kind of dive into it. So there's like funding rounds. So it's really nice when people come in funded because they just know what they have to work with until they get to manufacturing. Because everybody thinks like once your product's designed then it's just time to start counting money but then you got to get it manufactured and marketed and all that. The Gorilla Gravity Project wasn't even, I don't think it was even a year. And when they came to us, it was just for industrial design assets. And then they realized that we were actually more useful than just pretty drawings. So we actually wound up doing all the surface modeling through their molds that they used to actually make the bikes. So really, yeah, around two years is pretty common. Every once in a while we get some quick turn ones but the stuff that is achievable quickly, most people can find those assets with freelancers and kind of do it on the side. Because there's a lot of people that come in with a project that they've got a day job or they're serial entrepreneurs and they get a business going doing well and they sell it and then they ruin their lives and move on to the next thing that they pull their hair out, try to figure out and they get it going great and then they sell it and move again. And I don't understand that mindset but I guess maybe that's because I never had a successful business on my own. But yeah, so it's around about two years, pretty simple. And then just ask me again. So the kind of application slash designer role that you take, first off is that kind of more because you guys have this smaller shop and you guys didn't have this operation, you do that kind of thing. And then also, is everybody else on the design team do the same? And then there's like something is doing more sketching than it is, so I'll just do. Yeah, so I'm definitely the most shop capable at our spot and we make a point to keep as much prototyping in-house as we can. Because a lot of other firms and typically they're larger firms, they send that stuff out, they pay a prototype shop in China to machine parts or to make a quick like mud mold for injection molding and bring it back in. You know, we don't have an injection molder but we do have CNC machine and mills and lays and welders. So that helps us work faster because we're not waiting on something to come overseas or even just from up the street. So we got into that because there was a motorcycle project in town that I worked with all these guys on called the road and motor works. We did all those bikes. I don't know if you're familiar with that but we learned in doing that to be successful, you got to control your own destiny. And so I already had some hand skills with stuff regarding to, you know, what we're doing on those motorcycles. And then we just kept taking more and more and more on. And then when we opened our doors being linked, like being shut of that motorcycle project, it was like, okay, well, I'm definitely more shop capable. Like I said, I have a hard time sitting down and like doing all the solid work stuff. So one of the other guys that works with us is a solid works master. He can do anything super quick. He's also a great renderer, a great sketcher. Our other industrial designer is a good renderer and sketcher. And he had a mechanical engineering pathway before he decided he didn't wanna be an engineer and he stopped and then like switched to industrial design. So he's real good because he's got a real good gut mechanically for if wall thicknesses are right or something is, you got too big of a lever arm on that. It's gonna just break. And all of us have that like pretty well innately because the first thing we worry about is if something is buildable. Like that's something we see in portfolios a lot because we go to portfolio review and we'll see kids and they got their whole body of work that they're exhibiting for the evening. And it's like, oh yeah, I got like this thing is a pedometer and it counts your calories and it's got wifi connectivity and it does this and it does that. And they're like, well, where's all that live? Like that thing's not big enough to have all that in there. So which is, that's people that don't know any better is what pushes manufacturing processes and design. Like, well, it has to be the size. And so that makes a circuit board person figure out how to shrink all that stuff down and that all drives everything. So it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's definitely something that we look at when we're looking at people. And even with our engineers, like we have three engineers and they're all mechanical engineers at the shop, but some of them are better at doing the finite elemental analysis. So checking to see if parts are gonna break or if they're gonna have blowouts during injection molding or have cold shots when they're getting molded. And then we have other engineers that are better at the procurement side of things. Like they're really good at like, oh, we got like we're trying to source all these parts to build this thing. I know this weird place in Iowa that it'll make custom ball bearings for me or any of that. So there's definitely specific like niche skills that each of one of us have, but for the most part, like if somebody's not sick or you know, put some cells in the hospital, mountain biking or whatever, one of us can pivot and take over what they're doing. Once we get back up to speed on the job. Cool. So I've got a very little bit of stuff. Okay. I have a lot more questions, but I've got quite another time to ask them. Yeah, I'll answer questions all the time. This is way better than just talking about myself. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here. This is really good. Thank you. All right. Really interesting. Yeah. I'm glad you all enjoyed it. Even if you don't like it, you're pretty good at it. Yeah. Cool. All right. I'm going to take this.