 Good afternoon, Alex horse speaking. It is January 16th. And this is a meeting of the conservation commissions subcommittee on land use policy. And present we have Michelle Lobb, Bruce Steadman, who are commissioners, and we have Eric Jacques, who's a wetland administrator and myself. So we're going to talk first about what we're going to cover today. And so open it up. Aaron, so I think Bruce didn't get a chance to have the agriculture section reviewed. And he was able to get some documents from M.A.C.C. regarding some climate change adaptation type documents. And so since Michelle had taken on the climate change section. Or, you know, applicable sections. Bruce just wanted to touch base briefly on that instead of talking about the agricultural agriculture section, so that's not quite done. So I can just offer that we have a draft email to go out to the agriculture people. I have a set of names that we talked about before. If you have any other names, let me know. Once Aaron and Dave give back to me about the final version. It was my fault. I wrote two different things. But hopefully tomorrow I can send something out to the people on our list. And within by the time of this next meeting of this group, we'll have some feedback about the agriculture section, the climate part. So, Michelle, I went ahead and just because I'm interested, I went to M.A.C.C. and I said, well, are there examples that from other towns that have worked on this level of trying to really insert the ideas and the and the approaches into the various the work that they do. And and they actually had seems like what's her name? I'm sorry, I can't remember. But she sent me like five or six or eight documents about half of which are pretty directly related. So I wanted to quickly review them and then send them out to you through Aaron. As examples of things we could consider, but I didn't want to start doing stuff because you've already gone all the way to the end and it's just would cause more trouble. So I don't think I'm invested to the extent that I mean, I think that would be very helpful. So I'd love to see what they sent you. So what they sent you isn't something on their website. It's like I don't think so. No, one of them is a all the stuff, the slide deck from a presentation of the twenty twenty one or twenty two conference by the Arlington staff of the things that they had done there, which was extensive. There's a couple of other documents from other towns in eastern Massachusetts that have really been thinking about this and really turning it around. And there may be there will be pieces of it that are applicable to what some of the things she sent aren't really that applicable. But I want to send you the stuff that's actually useful. Great. I'd love to see it. To finish it by Wednesday, Thursday and send them along. OK, if you want to just send the dump to me, that's great to her via Aaron. Well, if you'd rather, I can do that, too. I just didn't want to waste your time with stuff that but I can send them along and then review them in parallel. And then we could talk about it at the next meeting or OK. Just quickly, is it a lot of stuff then? Yeah, there's eight documents. There's eight PDFs of varying length. All right. Sure. Give it a give it a. It's probably pretty knowledge of the grace through it and say, oh, well, this this one is useful. This one is not. But so, yeah, I'll afford them. All right. Thanks, Bruce, Bruce, to speed things along. Maybe it would be helpful as you go through the documents to save Michelle time if you could edit in PDF, maybe highlighting the areas that you think she should look at. And that way she doesn't have to look at things that you don't think are applicable. There are no. There is a I'm stumbling around and bumped into I was looking for sustainable forestry type stuff and folks. I think it's Harvard. I'm going to get this wrong. I'd have to look it up on my bookmarks. But they they got a grant to study sustainability and they put together a lot of material. It's not agriculture, but. For all I know, there's something in there that might be useful to you. I can I can go back in my bookmarks and figure out the links. I was actually looking for something else. I bumped into it, so I saved the bookmarks and moved on. So I just offer them. Hi, Dave. So is that the end of our discussion about about that? Well, there was a longer deliverables list. Yeah, I have changed computers and I don't have that in front of me. See if I find it, I'm pulling it up too. And I apologize. I'm a little bit discombobulated this morning as well, because I've got I'm not actually into my machine. I can just read it quickly if you'd like. Here, I can. I'll just I'm just in the process of sharing my screens. OK. So this is the chart. Yeah, so there's like a summary and then the deliverables are down here at the bottom. Yeah, I was I was talking about to talk about today. Oh, our agenda. Yeah, OK, but I can we can we can look at the deliverables. OK, so I think the I think the first item on the agenda was to talk about the deliverables, but I can I'll pull up the agenda too so we can have a look at that. OK, good. OK, so we did three. We want to save time for site visits. We've gone through an exercise there. I don't think we know where we're going. So maybe we could just cover that quickly and then come back to deliverables and rules and regulations section. I think Bruce was going to go back through rules and regulations section since he did that originally. I did and I sent it to Aaron to send to you. Maybe it's in there and I didn't see it, but I. I haven't seen it. Yeah, let me check. It's not there. I'm not sure I was out sick on Friday, so I'm not I sent it this morning. Oh, OK. Let me just check. I can forward it or open it up. I also said I'd look into beavers, which is not exactly on the agenda, but it doesn't take long to cover it. And I need to figure out where to go from where I am now. OK, so we want to do rules and regulations first or is that kind of the next item we want to talk about? Sure, that's fine. OK. So the version that Aaron's going to show you is as I understand it, I went back and checked and tried to use Alex's header description of where we how we got here. And so I think we need to just quickly go through the various issues that are still sitting there and see is there more to do? Is there something we can just decide right now? I'd like to try to get through the whole thing and at least have a an agreement on what the answer is or what do I do next to get an answer by the next time? Before we begin, could somebody remind me why this section is here? And I ask because every time I work on this document, I ask myself, what is the intent of the document? And where is it going to be posted? And who's who's the audience and all that? And so if you could just address why this section is here in this document, some of which I think is duplicative, I'd appreciate it. You mean why there's a rules and regulations section? There isn't a more. Yeah. Well, so we we have historically posted the rules and regulations for conservation land on the town website and also on on kiosks at various town properties. And because I guess previous to my arrival, there had been multiple versions of rules and regulations, each one slightly different. And we're in the process of cleaning up our website. There's a lot of old pages that need updating. And Alex, you came across this when you were doing your beaver research. There's a lot of sort of defunct pages that either need to be removed or fully updated. And so in kind of looking at it initially, when I first started, I was realizing there's like one set of rules and regulations over here that say one thing and another set over here that say another. And it's it's kind of to have a consensus on what the rules and regs are so that we can clean up all those pages and also populate our kiosks with accurate information. So with this page, this section function is a tear sheet that could be posted on kiosks absent the rest of the document. The rules and regs. Yes, that's kind of the intention. Yeah. OK, I would add to Aaron had a great explanation. I would also add that it's for staff and the Amherst Police Department to refer to when there are conflicts such as consumption of alcohol, open fires and the list goes on. People often say, where does it say? Where does it say you can't do this? And so police or or conservation staff can then say, oh, here's the official document from the Conservation Commission that says we encourage the following things. We don't allow X, Y and Z. Even though some of it is is is addressed elsewhere in the document, this provides an executive summary. Is that it? Yeah, I think this is more. Yeah, this is kind of a very quick summary of of of some of that document. Yeah, key key factors that are pulled out and can be easily read, easily digested, you know, in in just a couple of minutes. Boom, you're at the end of this document. Yep. From what I understood from Bruce's work as well, you know, I think Alex, this is kind of it started out almost as what you described as like a stream of consciousness. It was sort of just a bunch of rules that had kind of been thrown into the document in no particular order. And I think Bruce or tried to organize it a little bit into sections that made sense. I got it. So when I look at this document that we're talking about right now, I'll I'll think about it as a standalone document that others in town could use or could go on kiosks. Rather than posting the whole document, thank you. The same the same, for example, goes for community gardens. Those rules are in this document, but those rules also are posted on the town under community gardens. They're also supposed to be posted on kiosks around the community garden. So it's another tear sheet kind of a summary document. Thank you. Yeah, just a quick share. I was up at Mount Pollux the other day and I noticed speaking of inconsistencies, there's a sign up there that says Mount Pollux closed dusk to dawn. And I went, oh, my goodness, why is that sign there? That that's just inconsistency. It should be, oh, you know, the positive open dawn to dusk. So I asked Brad to to change that. But somebody some years ago thought, oh, that we should we should really say when it's closed, not when it's open. So but I had never seen it. The sign that said closed during the nighttime hours. So anyway, interesting. OK, I'm going to move on here. So comment Bruce Devman won. Not sure what Michelle meant by this abbreviation. I assume, Michelle, that this was a preview, you know, some time ago, you asked the question, but what is it seed land use app? What does that mean? The land use application. So I'm not sure if it's happened, Erin, but we talked about just adding more information on the land use application about what the commission expects to see for research and education. Applications just, you know, so that we don't have to ask somebody to come back with like their methods and their objectives and everything just to add it to that. So that's I can put a link there to the application. And meanwhile, others will work on the application to get it finalized. Great. The next one. Sorry, go ahead. It was methods and abstracts, right, Michelle, that we were going to add to attach for the land use application. OK, yeah, we had that conversation and I don't think I followed up with it on that, but I can do that. Sorry, I just made a note to myself. OK, the next one, Alex. Sorry. There would. So when you say scene land use application, that would be in an appendix. I was assuming that it would be an appendix. Yes, I think it's mentioned elsewhere as an appendix. OK. So in the table of contents, it should be listed as an appendix. OK, if it is, I'll I'll check that part. Yeah, the next one is fishing and hunting. If this is sufficiently complicated, we can hold it to the end and see whether we get to it. It's Alex's hold. OK. Horses and mountain bikes says there is their signage permitting horse bike horses and bikes on designated trails would be good to have a map. And then we must designate these trails prior to mapping and hanging. So the question is, where are we on designation? That's a great question. Historically, we have posted. We have posted, particularly for mountain bikes. I don't recall on horses, but historically, we've posted trails. And conservation areas that allow hunting above and also mountain bikes and horses. It's it's a task. It is it's work. They get torn down the weather, etc. So but let me ask a question. Could are you in a place now where you could give us a list of all the trails and the designations for what's allowed and what is allowed on a given trail or is that also in process? I mean, from my perspective, I don't know that there is such a list or maybe I'm wrong, Dave, I've never seen it. We we could I'm sure we could find a historical list. I guess I wanted to have the conversation and maybe this is a hold on this too, because it's more complicated. But. You know, historically, P Westover, he posted, you know, he had had a list, had a map and basically said all of these trails. You know, you're trying to split the pickle, these trails because they go through wetlands or these trails are wet at some. Avoid this section, you know, during April and May. It's kind of absurd, if you ask me. I think we need to just have have a larger conversation. How how impactful are horses and mountain bikes on our trails? Do we do we want to allow them at all? Or do we not care? And that's related to the list that you gave us once about. Policy issues, dogs, mountain bikes, motorized vehicles, hunting. They were all on this list that you may recognize, you know. So it's it's the tougher questions that we'll have to get to before we can really finalize this entire document. But we'll hold that for now. Going on, watercraft. I hold on. Hold on, Bruce. Yeah, I'm going to suggest that we split horses and bikes for purposes of discussion, because they're different. There are different issues involved. Sure. There might be different. There might be different answers. And I saw mountain bikes on this book yesterday. Are they not supposed to be there? I don't know. This is a good example of there needs to be a way to know exactly. Well, and I think that as we talk about climate change and and just, you know, I know that historically we've had lists and things of properties appropriate for it or not, you know, we may want to consult other sources like natural heritage and endangered species mapping to see where trails intersect with endangered species. And those might be areas where we want to, you know, have limitations. But I guess I'm just bringing this up because I think there are new sources of information that might not have been in existence back when Pete Westover made designations of what trails were open for these activities or not. And so that might be something to think about. Can I just interject for food for thought? I know I'll come back to it. But I have been places where our mountain bikes weren't allowed because they're singletrack trails and it was more of a pedestrian hiker safety issue, like low visibility or it wasn't entirely about impacts to wetlands. So as you're walking around and you're seeing or experiencing something like that, maybe just keep it in mind. That would be a safety issue then. Yeah, I mean, it was like a very topographic singletrack place that was very attractive to mountain bikers for that reason. But it was very scary when you're on the trail, like with your kids and someone barreling down it and a bike. Just just just thought, I mean, these are all these are all good. And this is all why I thought it was a more complex discussion. I also think enforcement, we can post all we want. We can put it on the website all we want. But who's going to enforce, you know, horse rules or mountain bike rules? We also need to think that the Mount Holyoke Range is a Mecca for it's a Mecca for mountain bikes. And we have many of the access trails from the Amherst side up to the to the range are owned by the town. So anyway, good, good conversation to have. You know, so let's break them in two and talk about. OK. Sure. Next issue. Watercraft. So I I kept the changes we made the last time. But if this says what it says now, are you happy with it? Motorized boats are prohibited, period. Kayaks, paddle boards and canoes are permitted on Pover's Pond, Owens Pond, Plumbrook Pond, Fort River and other navigable waterways on conservation land. Who's who in the public is going to know a navigable waterway from a floatable waterway? I don't think they do. That's a pretty. That's a term of art. It's actually a legal term, but why navigable? So if we just drop navigable and just say other waterways on conservation land, that would cover everything that was needed. Yep. Like it. OK, we're taking navigable out. Dogs. I think that's tabled. I'm sorry, in what way? It's a deeper discussion. Oh, right. This is a hold for it even says Michelle would like a more extensive discussion. And she she volunteered for it. Right, that's right. Right, that's right. So we'll hold that for when we have deep dive discussions. OK, then so that covers the permitted the special uses and situations permitted and encouraged uses. Then there's the prohibited items. And the prohibited activities. Of course, there's some sort of prohibitions up above in the watercraft part. I may I'll see whether it makes sense to repeat that. Then use of motorized vehicles, e-bikes or motorized work was crossed out. Can you scroll up? So are we continuing to three now? There we go. Well, let's talk about permaculture first. So Michelle had this comment about that. I just didn't know why permaculture is being specifically called out if it just meant like community gardens or something. I mean, that's like a specific type of agriculture. So there was an intentional planting of permaculture gardens. I know at Amethyst Brook and also at. Gosh, why do I always draw a blank? The old Hitchcock Center site Larch Hill. There were like there was intention by certain members of the community to plant permaculture gardens and there were plantings put in there for that purpose. So I think the idea was and also if we ever did additional permaculture in the future, I know there's a lot of. Permaculture that's been previously encouraged on conservation land and public lands. And so wanted to make sure like if somebody was planting. Varieties of like berry bushes for people to pick while they're out on a hike that it's clear. People could pick berry bushes if they were in a permaculture garden. So that's why they were called out, right? I don't know the definition of permaculture, but is it just sort of like public garden? Does that encompass it? I mean, if it's a few blueberry bushes, does that make it permaculture? I don't know. It's solidly specific, but I know what you mean. It's a public like forage garden or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Let me see the exact definition. Permaculture is an approach to land management and settlement design that adopts arrangements observed in flourishing natural ecosystems includes a set of design principles derived using whole system thinking. Yeah, I feel like that might be a reach if you're just planting blueberry bushes for foraging. I just think that was that. Yeah, like I'm trying to drop it. But I mean, at some level, it's so fine grained compared with the other things in this section. Yeah, I mean, I would defer to the board. It's just like if it's ever a land use situation or if like in the future, we do agricultural, an agricultural lease or something. And people wanted to install a permaculture garden with the purpose that people could use it. It's just from the standpoint of grammar, the fact that it's in a parenthetical, it's offset by parentheses means it can be discarded. Mean from the document. Yeah, I would put it in parentheses. So from a grammar standpoint, it can be excluded without loss. Well, and to answer Aaron's point, I think if that ever came up, it's if with a capital I and a capital F, if it ever came up, then the commission could address it then and just say, we're going to make an exception with this particular lease or something like that. I just feel like it's too too small for and we're already want to try to reduce this if you're going to make a car sheet out of it. Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that's fine. And I think it's covered in the, you know. Or other purposes as authorized case by case by the commission. Right. OK. Moving on. Oh, hold on, hold on, please. Plant destruction. We are prohibiting the collection of fruits. Is that in here? I was going to ask the same thing because I think down below there's something about foraging berries, but. It should be in this section of its split because I remember. So this is that means we would just we would disallow somebody going out and harvesting blueberries for personal consumption, making pies and things like that if we had a low brush blueberry area. Is that right? Right. So we're working we shouldn't do that. Why? Yeah, we're we're managing these lands like a national park where you can do you can't do anything unless there's permission to do it, whereas opposed to a forest service piece of property where you can do anything you want, unless there's a sign that says you can't. There used to be something in here saying that you could. Does Aaron, do you remember that? Did it get deleted or something? Well, we've gone through so many drafts, to be honest, and so many iterations of comments. I mean, we went through comments from like eight different commissioners over the course of the years. I don't really recall if it like how it I know that there were comments from people saying we should allow it and then there were comments from people, I think, saying, I don't know, maybe we shouldn't allow it because people, you know, sometimes take liberties when they're allowed to do things. And I don't really know, you know, I think it's a it's a good question. And I think for this committee to sort out, I think we should be able to. Sorry, Alex, just just from a personal standpoint, I want to be. I want to make it difficult for us to say somebody can't do something to just say somebody might take advantage of it. To me, that's not good enough. And I if if somebody wants to go out and pick blueberries, what harm would that do? I think there's probably enough for the wildlife. And I just take that as an example. And the the headline is plant destruction and picking fruits doesn't destroy the plant. OK, so one one. A possible way to handle it is to take the harvest in word out and then change the header. To be more reflective of what we're trying to say. And we want to object to taking the word harvest out. I'm pausing a little bit in my mind, just trying to think of are there any situations where something someone might. Basically over overharvest, and I'm just pausing in that for a minute. I think sometimes like there's herbs that could be over harvested. Ramps is another example of things people go out and harvest. And I mean, I've seen people like pick all of the pearly everlasting and then it never came back. Mushrooms mushrooms. Mushrooms, yeah. Well, then the first side is to say that they're if so what if there's blueberries? They can't be harvested by this regulation, by this this document. And that's a few people harvest them. That's the way it goes. Yeah, you allow fruit collection. I mean. Well, apples, autumn olive. Brothberries. Alex, it was interesting. It was interesting your comparison of a national forest to what, to Fish and Wildlife Refuge or National Park. Yeah, quite interesting. That makes me think about everything we're doing. You know, how how restrictive are we? We're very restrictive. And basically all you can do is is walk and talk. And boat. And boat, but I, you know, there's a lot of stuff that's disallowed because somebody might take advantage of it or we might have a problem or we can't have camping because we had problems when we allowed that and homeless people set up shelters and things like that. So, but we've infringed on human enjoyment. And there's there's lots of different human enjoyments to be had on conservation land. And I think of my cousin who likes to pick blueberries in the summertime and she makes beautiful, beautiful blueberry pies. I don't think she overharvests. She makes enough, you know, she picks enough to make her pies. Now, does that mean that we're going to have a ton of people out there picking blueberries? I doubt it. And if that becomes a problem, then the board will deal with it. But I as we got into these tough issues, I want to be tough on saying no and have very good reasons. If we do say no and not just do it because we're afraid. Sorry, is anybody against blueberry and berry harvesting? I mean, I didn't hear that. No, I think what Alex was saying was that word harvested. Rehabilites, not from happening. Yeah. Well, could we could we maybe state just after the to replace the the statement in in parentheses state, the commission allows picking of berries, collection of berries on conservation land or something like that, just to make it clear that that's an exception. Origin, you could also put the word commercial before harvest. Plants may not be cut commercially harvested but chugging plants, not the fruits. I don't I don't I we're taking a lot of time on this one issue. Maybe we give Bruce. OK, I have I have an idea on how to proceed. I'll put it in and show it to you the next time. Let's go to motorized vehicles. So again, I tried to do what you when we talked about last time, does this work? Looks good to me. OK. And that is sorry. But I think a merchant is the word emergency in there. The only exception is mobility devices are permitted for use of mobility issues who required who require handicapped disability access or emergency vehicles. We ran into that issue on the Monolly Oak range when we were permitting a project up there where I think Andre was talking about the use of emergency vehicles. So I would like to allow emergency vehicles. Yeah, good couch. OK, I got that. The last two use of metal detectors. Michelle asked why that's in there and playing paintball. And Alex says, yeah, well, why is that in here? Or was Alex responding to my question? No, I think he was saying likewise. Why is painting paintball on this list? I think his comment is in response to mine. And he's saying, yes, why? So if you think, yeah, well, that's why I can answer. I can answer on metal detectors. OK, please. Yeah, metal detectors can be used to and are used and have been used on on our conservation land to to find and take off site historic artifacts from, for instance, mill sites along the Cushman Brook and the Middle River. If those are public resources, why do we want somebody? Why do we want to allow people to? Use them and potentially take off important artifacts that belong to the to the residents of Amherst coins and buckle belts and belt buckles and all sorts of things are mined at these sites. That's that's why it. OK, that's why I was there. It's pretty I mean, it's a pretty standard, pretty standard on, you know, on just allowing them on conservation land or public land, for that matter. OK, Alex and Michelle, are you OK with leaving it in? Yeah, and that's a good reason. I don't know if we want to add the reason or just leave it at that. I'm just going to put it up with the other things that are don't have reasons attached, smoking, feeding wildlife, et cetera. Paint, I don't know about paint. I've never we I've never encountered anybody playing paintball like organized paintball. I don't know if Michelle or others you wanted to comment on a set up. It was in a butter set up, not in Amherst, but in another town where in a butter to piece of conservation land had a paintball course that then extended beyond their property onto conservation lands. I have seen it before, but I didn't add that specifically. I don't think maybe that's a recreational activity that needs a permit. I don't think we should play ball. It's very impactful and it leaves like very bright color paint all over trees and people make like move stuff and break sticks and make forts. And it, you know, I would not want to be on a walk and walks or paintball. I've encountered them before, actually, down by off Northeast Street. It's not. Oh, in the rifle range. And is that what it's called? That long road that goes back to the brook there? Is it Adams brook? There was a big. I guess the question and I'm channeling Alex here, are we. Is that. Is that likely to happen? Aaron, in your example, that was something that overflowed from private property. Do we need to list it? Or is this a situation that would simply, if it were to happen, we would go out and address it. The department would say, who's playing paintball out here? You can play paintball out here. Or do we need to broadly just, you know, rabbit it? I guess I'm asking, you know. I vote for prohibiting it off the bat. It's not a great thing to do on public conservation land. I mean, it's terrible. It leaves like fluorescent paint all over the place. Oh yeah, I'm not denying it all, Michelle. Yeah. In fact, I was involved in cleaning up the paintball situation over on the rifle range, which was UMass property. And it was, it was very bad. I'm just saying I've actually never heard of it on conservation land, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Where is the rifle range? The old rifle range is off of Northeast street. It's, um, and UMass allowed the UMass paintball club to set up out there. And before you know it, I think it cost him 10 to $20,000 to clean it up. Um, the paintballers, very enthusiastic group that brought all sorts of stuff there, including some doors that were made of asbestos. Anyway, it turned into a nightmare for you. I'm inclined to leave it prohibited. If someone wants to complain about it someday, they can do that. But it works. Okay. I yield the floor back to Alex. I have my notes. I'll give you a revised version of this next time. I think someone said put it that one into recreation. I think that's a good idea. Right. Throw it in under recreation. Okay. Maybe there can be one on recreation land someday, but. We'll see. Maybe, maybe not. Yeah, before we leave paintball, just to be devil's advocate. Um, I would favor disallowing it, but. We do have pickleball and the town. Got a grant and is spending lots of money. To change the landscape on conservation land. To, I think it's conservation land, maybe, maybe no, no, it's town land. No, recreation. The town is it's recreation land. Yeah. And the town is spending a lot of money. To create pickleball courts. Which, which are highly visible cost a lot of money. And, um, so. Beauty's in the eye of the beholder. Um, and if you mass. If they had a bad experience with pickleball, I'm perfectly willing to follow their example and disallow it. But, um. Yeah, I got bigger than they imagined. That's what happened. Yeah. Okay. Moving on. Thank you, Bruce. You're welcome. I appreciate that. I know. Going through there is tedious process where we have to do this to get to a place where we have something we can show other people. Yeah, so Aaron, can we come back to our mission now? We're done with that. Just bring the memo up that describes our, our charter. And the deliverables. And this came up in a conversation between Michelle and Aaron. On are we on track. And I appreciated Aaron sending this out. I have said several times, one of our purposes, I think is number 4, number, number, yeah, number 4. To revise and update the document we were handed. And hand and give it back to the broader commission for their approval. And it may be number 4. So I don't think these are any in any priority order. But I do think number 4 is high on our list to get through the document that we were handed. And bring it back to the commission for their, their consideration and hopefully approval. That's why we started going through the document. Heading by heading and making assignments where somebody would. Look at it and come back like Bruce has, like I have like Michelle has. So we've been pecking away at that. I would like to have a conversation. At some point doesn't have to be today about that process. And particularly when do we go back to the commission? Do we do it in chunks? Do we wait till the old document is done? We've never clarified that amongst ourselves. Also, a discussion about updating the document. Things have gotten lost and file names. We could use a different file name section. So. On a future meeting, I would like to have an agenda item where we actually talk about number 4. And how are we see us going forward from a process standpoint. Period, Bruce. Um, and if I am, I believe that three. And eight are also part of four. At least they are so far. Whether they should be split out or not. I don't know, but they at the moment they're sitting there is as part of number four. Yeah, I mean, I think multiple elements of the deliverables are sort of entwined in the. The overall land management document. I think sort of the intention, the way that I drafted this was. For the committee to, to revise applicable sections of the land management. Policy. But, you know, I think the, I think the commission has to, to some degree, the whole document has to make sense. And I think, you know. Everything that we've done so far has made sense and it's been logical. So I think, you know. That's, that's great. And we should just keep going. I think. You know, we've been doing it sort of a piece, piecemeal approach for all of them. And I think, you know, however, makes the most sense for this for us to organically go through it. It doesn't have to be start with 1 and end with a. I would like to keep a record of what sections we have gone through. And settled on amongst our souls. And I don't, I, I'm happy to create that list. Aaron wants to do it fine, but I'm happy to do it so that we have. A written record of what we've covered and what we yet to get done. And, you know, maybe just a simple, take me a copy of the table of contents. And highlighting things we've gone through and settled on in a different color. Something simple. Just, as Bruce pointed out, I started putting dates. In the header on when things were revised. As a way to keep track. But. Every time the commission actually meets Michelle gives an update on what we're doing. And it's always pretty obtuse. And I think we should pretty soon. Come up with some idea of how we're going to get back to them in pieces or in whole. To give them an idea of what our timeframe is. So I would be curious from Aaron and Dave. For numbers. One through eight, are there any of them that are not going to end up in this document that are totally separate. One that comes to mind is forest future forest practices. Because of the notion of trying to get a forestry bylaw. But for the rest. Is any of this not in the land use policy document. Yeah, so I think that there is a forestry section that I believe Alex worked on and I was going to say that from my perspective is kind of the one that is closest to complete. All of the sections from my. Just thinking about where we're at with all the sections, I think. Almost all of them are in some level of draft, except for that one, I think we were almost all in agreement with the. Okay. But as far as the forestry bylaw that you mentioned, Bruce, I think that the forestry bylaw is more a for a forestry bylaw is a townwide bylaw similar to a wetland bylaw that covers any forestry practices in the town. So it wouldn't be specific to the overall land conservation land management policy would extend beyond conservation land. Fair enough. Well, then it seems like all of these are part of the overall land policy document. Yeah. Okay. So, Aaron, we have 5 minutes left in this meeting. Could we put on the next agenda a continuation of a discussion about deliverables, including number 4 and particularly number 4. So that we can get our head around the kinds of things that I just talked about. And anything else that others, I'd like to put beavers on there for next time. And I'd like to spend the next remaining time, which is about 4 minutes on field trips. I think we have dates. All we need is where we're going and maybe that's an email or something. So I did send out a save the date invitation for the 2 dates. And I think it's just coming up with recommended site visits for us to attend on those specific dates. I definitely have some sites in mind, but I thought it might be good for David and I to touch base. And then I could send out just our sort of meeting location and hoped sites to visit during that date. Yeah, we were talking about maybe this was weeks ago, Aaron, we haven't touched base on this in a while. We were talking about maybe starting with agricultural sites. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And my thinking was to start in North Amherst and maybe we could do like, Hodex, Zala, Catherine Cole. And possibly like, Haskins, Meadow. Yeah. And then any other North Amherst that might make sense. So we only have an hour. Right. You know, it's set up for an hour. And I doubt we can visit very many sites in an hour. Logistics will eat us up. Yeah. So, and I think the other part of it is like, when we visit the sites, like, for example, Zala, you can just park in the parking lot and see the field right in front of you. So will we want to get out of the car and walk the entire site? Same with Haskins Meadow, you can sort of drive by and see it. So it's really kind of at the commission's will. If you and I can come up with that, Aaron, because we know all the sites really well and we know parking, you know, whether we'll dictate, you know, like there's parking at Hodex, Catherine Cole, but there's no parking at Haskins Meadow. So why don't you and I, to Alex's point, we only have an hour, we can probably with getting between sites probably only visit two in an hour. I guess. So I would ask, I would ask Dave and Aaron in the time remaining that while you think about sites, think about the issue you want to talk about at each site and whether snow on the ground will make it difficult for us to see it or understand it. Yeah. If it's irrigation, we can understand that but if there's something that snow will hide, then please, you know, find a site where the weather, the conditions on the ground. The conditions on the ground won't prohibit us from understanding what the issues are. We could do a nice little map of each site. Michelle, do you have a question? I was just wondering for something like Haskins Meadow, like, I don't, if there's no parking, how would the group kind of get their feet on the ground and talk about it. I was just wondering if, if for that site, maybe other sites that they're sort of like, you know, summary of issues and things about it that you would provide and we could visit it on our own time if there's like a selection of sites like that. Yeah. Yeah, Aaron and I, that's a great idea. Maybe Erin and I can go through and see logistically which ones make sense in February, March, and which ones don't. And if there are ones we can't visit, we could provide a map and some things for you all to think about and visit on your own and maybe you need snow shoes to walk around or whatever, whether, whether, let's see what the weather looks like. I need to go to a meeting. Sorry. Yep. Bye. Thank you. Aaron, are there any members of the public standing by? No. Okay, so it is one o'clock. And this meeting ends at one o'clock. So I hear a motion to close the meeting. I move to adjourn. I second. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Enjoy the snow.