 Welcome to the Mises Academy podcast. I'm Daniel James Sanchez director of online learning at the Mises Institute For this episode I interviewed Anna Martin of the Libertarian homeschooler Which can be found at facebook.com slash the Libertarian homeschooler So Anna you run a site called the Libertarian homeschooler and how many likes does it have now? It right now it has 5,000 Wow, I know That's amazing. How did you build up that those kinds of numbers really? It it began three and a half years ago and Strangely the numbers build up Exponentially as you get more people you get more people But in the beginning I was really talking about homeschooling and my own journey through becoming more of a Libertarian my understanding of economics but as Homeschooling takes off people are really interested, you know, it's growing at a rate of 9 to 15 percent a year, which is so exciting so More and more people want to know all of the time How are other people doing this? And so I think that's drawing people to the Libertarian homeschooler and Also, they're very interested in Libertarianism too. I have a lot of people that lurk I'm pretty sure that they don't want to hit the like button Because they're afraid that their friends will see that they like a Libertarian site But they're there and they're learning and they're my theory is that most people are Libertarians. They just don't know it Yeah, so that's I think that's why they find it Attractive is because I'm saying things that they already That really resonate with them already. So it's it's exciting, isn't it? It's a wonderful time to be homeschooling because there are so many people that are coming to it and We're having the most unexpected Allies in homeschooling, you know Teachers and even administrators are, you know, very quietly sometimes saying to parents You might want to homeschool your child and it shouldn't be surprising because of course they love children But these are teachers saying to parents you might want to homeschool your child, which was really unexpected so That's great. One of the neat features that you have on your Facebook page is that you have these dialogues with that you record between you and your kids So would you like to talk about sort of like how that is useful in terms of conveying to followers of your page your pedagogy and your approach and the socratic method and all that yeah the the dialogues Sort of spring out of our our every day walking around talking about things Experiences and sometimes they're funny and sometimes they're serious and sometimes they're pretty academic as our as our older son Sees them posted more often and he sees the questions that people ask he he's realizing I'm actually talking to an audience here and he feels like he's got a responsibility to answer these questions In a way that makes sense not only to me, but also to the people that are that are reading these Questions and answers he sees that there are people that really don't understand the fundamentals of economics And so when he answers me sometimes he's thinking how would I explain this to someone who didn't understand economics or who didn't understand? political philosophy it didn't start that way it started out just as mommy asking little boys questions and We talk about a lot of things I post a lot of things on the on the website and their theory and The conversations that we have our theory live lived out. This is how we do it And I think that that helps people see they're very curious. How does this homeschooling thing happen? What does it really look like and so that's what we're doing we're trying to show people what it really looks like in the day in and day out and sometimes the conversations are silly and sometimes they go off track and Sometimes they're really pretty good. Yeah, I don't have as many conversations with our younger son because these are pretty introverted the little boy But our older son he's he extroverts his process And so what you get is you get sort of like a peek into the house And you get to see how it is that I ask them questions and how they Respond and how with my questions. I sort of I direct where it is they're thinking and I try and sort of feel out Where are the soft spots? Where are the soft spots and they're thinking and how can I help them to? to make a more cohesive argument for their thoughts to be really more complete and We're getting to the point now. We're with My adolescent son I'm going to start arguing with him and I'm going to start presenting the other point of view and I'm going to start Badgering him and that will be interesting. We'll see how it goes a devil's advocate approach. Yes, and the The Socratic method I'd never really thought of what we do is the Socratic method It was more of what Maria Montessori would call wondering questions. And so I came to it from that from that direction We often ask children questions like so I wonder what What you think about this or how does this strike you and we ask wondering questions with children all the time That's very important. So that's really where I began Great now what came first for you? Libertarianism or the interest in homeschooling homeschooling homeschooling came first homeschooling came before I had children and I was I was very interested in homeschooling But when I began I really wanted to build a better beast. I was really interested in having the same line of production and Coming up with the same sort of product if you will only better and faster and stronger it hadn't occurred to me that all of the things that I was learning in my real life about children and about Adolescents and about the way that they learn was actually going to apply to my own children. So My hope when I began homeschooling was to build a better beast. I was I was very interested in the well-trained mind And I tried this for a while with our sons and what is the well-trained? it's a wonderful book about the Trivium and It's it's a it's a curriculum and it sort of sets out what the child is supposed to learn when they're supposed to learn it and It's terrific if your child happens to learn in that way and that didn't really work out so well for us but in terms of of libertarianism as A Political philosophy Way back when I was a liberal Way back when and then after I got married I became very conservative and then after I had children I became a libertarian and the reason that I became a libertarian because because I thought we have the future to consider and That really crystallized my thoughts it was like this astonishing Focusing effect that having children will have on you all of a sudden you've got real skin in the game And it's not talk and so Being a liberal is not an option for me and being a conservative is not an option for me I really have to think about this because this matters and so that's why I'm a libertarian because it matters I couldn't justify this to my children. Yes, I could not justify being a liberal I could not justify being a conservative. I could not logically do it it was not possible and they were going to be asking me difficult questions and The only real answers that I could give them that I could back up with logic and reason Which they were going to be demanding of me and it was really clear really early That our our older son in particular wasn't going to be accepting anything short of what was true and what was right He was going to reject it outright. He was going to say no, this isn't happening Libertarianism was the only thing that was available because it was the one that made sense. It was it's based in logic It's based in human action It's got economics behind it and and reasonable economics not strange economics So this is where I had to go. So how did you learn? The economics that you now Teach your children. It that's a funny story. I What my gateway drug was Milton Friedman Milton was my gateway drug and he's he's a very he was a very very happy warrior and I found him very compelling and He he can really bring people in but then for Milton Friedman, then I started reading things like Cafe Hayek and at the Luckily at the time there was this wonderful video called the Keynes and Hayek rap and I watched it and I watched It again and again, and I thought I have a master's degree. I've gone. I've gone through college I don't understand what they're talking about. This is this is untenable. So I Actually made my way to the Mises dot org website and I started reading and for hours every single day I would read and I would read and I would read and suddenly things started to make sense and I was reading voraciously and You know my children would be setting fires Not really but it felt like it But I really needed to know why and I needed to know why because I was gonna have to explain it to my children and not Only that but it was during a time in in our personal history where our our family economics were suffering because The economics of the whole country were suffering and I wanted to know why why is this happening and Mises dot org explained a lot of that to me, you know, I was I was I was reading all sorts of things and Listening what was really helpful. It was listening to Bob Murphy and Tom Woods And the way in which they explained things was so gentle and so kind that the boys would just come and they would listen to And so we were learning together and that's really that's really how it all began So it would be articles as well as audio recordings and the videos a lot of articles yes, there was a lot of reading going on sometimes there was reading going on and You know my then seven-year-old son be thinking what in the world? Why are you reading this to me? We might have been older, but you know, there was a lot of language that he didn't understand But it was great. It was great trying to explain this to a very young child if you can explain it to a young child You've got it. Yeah. Yeah, that's great Now I'd also like to talk a little bit about how You think libertarianism can be applied to not only the content of education, but the actual application of the actual method of education and in child-rearing in general There's this great quote by Herbert Spencer that you actually posted to the libertarian homeschooler Facebook page This is the quote. It's included in a Mises daily. That's called on on moral education. That's a great article Yeah, yes, I really recommend it too. He says Bear constantly in mind the truth that the aim of your discipline should be to produce a self-governing being Not to produce a being to be governed by others where your children faded to pass their lives as slaves You could not too much accustomed them to slavery during their childhood But as they are by and by to be free men with no one to control their daily conduct You cannot too much accustomed them to self-control while they are still under age Aim therefore to diminish the amount of parental government as fast as you can substitute for it in Your child's mind that self-government arising from a foresight of results Would you talk a little bit about what why that was so powerful to you? That could have been Maria Montessori. Yeah. Yeah, that could have been Maria Montessori and what what he is saying is that any kind of scaffolding any kind of support any kind of Guidance that you give a child when it is no longer necessary is an impediment what you're doing is you're shackling the child and What we really aim to do as parents is to liberate the child We want to we want to have them be Free from us as soon as we see that they are able and that's really important It's soon as we see that they are able. This is about liberty. He's not advocating for license This is license is not Acceptable that's abandonment and there's a there there's often some real confusion about that about Liberating a child being abandonment. This is not what it is you support the child as long as they as they need it But what you're really hoping to do is to liberate the child and so they need to make choices They need to have they need to have natural consequences. They need to They need to be able to hear you say that's going to hurt and to believe that that's actually going to happen because they need to be able to govern themselves In in our lives, we really we allow our sons to get hurt and they you know, we don't we don't risk life or limb But they do get hurt they get stitches sometimes they get they get bumps on the head But we will say we will say that will hurt you and if we say that will hurt you in our house Two little boys will stop what they are doing and they will turn and they will look to us because they know that it's true That is incredibly important to let a child have the consequences of their decisions Yeah, Herbert Spencer talks about like so what you said about life and limb he talks about you you have to obviously be Judicious about this that for example He gives the example of like an infant playing with a razor blade That you obviously can't let the infant continue playing with a razor blade because the risk to life is is too great And so there's a common saying that the school of hard knocks Well, it's sort of like the school of soft knocks that that you that you have to Allow the kids to actually experience negative consequences of ill advised behavior for them to really to really grow as acting as acting people and not just in in terms of physical Consequences but in terms of Just other kinds of consequences to in terms of social consequences and in terms of Financial consequences. Yes, we we let them spend their money and it's their money as they see fit And we've had situations in which our younger child who's very very Keen on the value of money. He appreciates money Where he has spent his money? Unwisely and he comes back and it hurts him it hurts him because he knows the value of money It hurts them when he spends it unwisely and so he's very judicious Our older son is not exactly like that But he's also had the experience of spending money unwisely and we allow that Because if they don't do it, how are they going to learn? This is what it's for This is that this this 25 or 30 or 50 or $200 lesson for your child is cheap It is cheap that $200 that is nothing if you end up with a child who is More aware whose eyes are open about the value of of money and what it means in terms of their time and their effort This is incredibly important and you know It's it's frustrating to hear parents say things like well, do you let them spend their money the way that they want? I think well, it is their money after all so yes Yes, they that's theirs. That's that's that's there So they spend it as they see fit and they make better decisions all the time So that reminds me of one of my favorite of your posts where you talk about toys and giving your child full sacrosanct property rights in their toys and how a lot of parents might think that that is Antithetical to sharing to to being to making the kids that it would make the kids selfish But you said that that actually made the kids more open-handed with sharing because they weren't afraid of Once the toy is shared that they then lose lose property rights in the toy or and they're not constantly worried about their toys being Redistributed did you want to talk a little bit about that? Well again, this is Montessori and What what she would have children do is in they'd be working on a material in the prepared environment and While the child had that material there was no sharing going on none of that There's no redistribution that the child who has their hands on the material that is theirs and what she what she said was that They learned that they don't have to grasp and hang on and be selfish They are more open-handed and that has been my experience as well when you give a child full property rights And you say no you don't have to share what happens is they they don't cling. They're not nervous There's no anxiety about does this really belong to me? Do I have to exert my property rights myself? No I have an adult who is going to help me and they're going to help me by saying that Belongs to him you'll have to wait or no you may not play with that because he has it and what I have found Happens in our house is our children do share not because we Say that they have to but because they have found out what happens one when they don't share and two what happens when they do share and they like They like what happens when they share and they share with younger children with older children And they're always surprised when other children don't want to share when they seem clingy and possessive of their things That's surprising to them the consequence of not making a child share. I think is a child who's far more willing and even Generous to the point of Even giving selflessly without any Reward coming I don't remember what it was. There was a there was a Red Cross campaign and I don't know how I found out but I found out that our older son had given money to the Red Cross and he had just done it and I said Did did you did you give money to them? He said yes There was there was something that was going on there was a disaster and I gave money to them because people needed it Well, that was his money from his Earnings that that he had he had spent his time making this money and he wanted to send it to somebody who needed it We we've never suggested that to him that was something that he did and that I think has to do with the fact that he knows that it's his and He's not worried that it's going to be taken away So the things in the house that belong to them belong to them. Yes That's great. It also reminds me of of an insight that that I've seen Lou Rockwell, right is that in in Childrearing that we teach these basic libertarian principles all the time Which is don't steal? Although that's initiated by the fact that we actually do steal because because it's so That we redistribute toys all the time in in most most environments But but secondly don't hit just that Sort of the non-aggression principle that that we are owners of our own bodies and that that should be inviolate and And don't enslave other kids You will work on my plantation Don't do that. And so that there's these basic moral principles that we teach kids, but but then we don't apply it that Extensively after they get older than then all of a sudden they start hearing different messages when When they learn about the kinds of things that Franklin Roosevelt did and in in in school That it's it's a very different message than yes, then all of a sudden it's okay to you know Stuck it a steal if you're if you're stealing it for this reason, right, right Yeah, that that that's always been very interesting and in our house We do have two rules and they come straight from Richard Maverick We stole them, but I think that he stole them from someone else So it's okay, but in the house if if you want to be a member in good standing in our family you do all that you have agreed to do and You do not encroach on the person or property of another and that is that's That's it adults and children we all live by those rules and Children are just as likely to say to an adult, you know, you made that agreement and you really need to do that and I think that that's very important and our children look at everything They see through the lens of those two rules do not encroach on the person or property of another and do all you have agreed to do And even when they're looking at things like history, they'll say was that encroachment? Did that was that did that? Did that have what where did the non-aggression principle go there was that acceptable if is that was that acceptable between Individuals if it's not acceptable between individuals then why is it acceptable when a group of individuals does it and they want to know answers like this and I've got to tell you I wouldn't have been able to provide that for them That that degree of logic and reason for them had I not done that primary reading Had I not been spending all of that time? Reading articles and listening to lectures. I couldn't have done that I can I think that it's incredibly important to be consistent with the child and this idea of the non-aggression principle applying between individuals but also applying with groups of individuals When you're reading history, you have to have that first That is that that's the screen that history has to go through and if it if it's not adhering to the non-aggression principle Then it's not okay That piece of history then you can you judge it by that and that's really what I want them to be able to do I want them to look at it and say did that adhere to the non-aggression principle was that was that action moral? Was that acceptable and if the answer is no then you can look at that that thing that happened and you can say You know, I'm not sure that that was the right thing. Let's look what happened before Was this perhaps perhaps it was a response to someone else's aggression, but if it wasn't then we need to really think Was that acceptable? So, yeah It's it's very helpful to have those those those principles in place Well, and it seems like it's a great aid when you're talking about history because then just to make any kind of sense of history and to make any kind of Reasonable judgments about what different actors in history did you kind of have to have that that basic Moral framework and that that those basic lessons about you know, what did these historical actors do and what was that? You know consonant with with the non-aggression principle and there's so many historical episodes that we just Teach kids and then we don't really Passed judgment on them one way or the other they just learn about Alexander the great and they call him the great right for example And and so they even even if that that they don't mean that to be an endorsement it does come off as as an endorsement for what he did and and It's never really second-guess that wait a minute. He murdered a whole bunch of people like was Did he really contribute to society in any way and and I'm sure that when They talk about Alexander the great in public schools, they don't they don't talk about the story retold by st. Augustine about The the pirate who was brought that's one of our favorite stories. Okay, do you want to tell it? How you right so well actually how I how I tell my kids Is we watched that little video about pirates and emperors and we love videos in our house I think you've probably noticed this yes, we love videos because they're entertaining so there's you know the name of the video It's called pirates and emperors and if you just go to YouTube It's you just you just type in pirates and emperors and I think it's supposed to to be like a schoolhouse rock video but this is wonderful and it talks about how st. Augustine is is Hearing that this pirate says, you know, I do this with a petty ship And so I am Fashioned a pirate and he says to the emperor and you do this with the with this armada with this fleet and so you you are fashioned emperor when you do the exact same thing and The delightful thing is that our children love that video But it it's got cheerful music and it makes them laugh and it's got it's got very cheerful cartoons But it's teaching a very powerful message and that is that If you're doing the wrong thing and you're an individual you usually You're usually going to get in trouble for it If you're doing the wrong thing and you have all the power or the monopoly on force or the monopoly on violence Then it's okay somehow and so the school really can't teach you to Morally evaluate the actions of Alexander the great because if you start doing that then you're going to start Evaluating the actions of your own government and they certainly don't want you to do that They don't want you they don't want you thinking okay So this math lesson that I got at 10 o'clock in the morning is really no different Than accepting any other kind of government welfare And they really don't want children thinking that because the school is an arm of the state and the state Being in control of the education of the citizenry I'm you can't hear this but my eyebrows are shooting up This is this is this is astonishing and we were listening to Isabel Patterson's Talked is about Patterson talking about about the state relinquishing control over the education of children Sometime after an octopus would release its clutches on its prey I mean, it's it's just a slightly less likely that the state would release the children and their minds and I don't think that the I don't think the other government schools can actually teach to Morally evaluate people and so they don't and so we have questions like well was Julius Caesar a good guy or a bad guy And what about Napoleon and Alexander the great and Columbus and we have all these questions We're thinking gosh was he good or bad and it's all kind of morally relative and I think that's dangerous right right because once you start questioning Whether it's okay to steal and murder As an individual that that you need to apply that that same moral framework to someone who Claims to have a monopoly on violence Then the same thing the the same kind of approach go can be applied to slavery Right, and but you can't have that in the public schools mind because then the The the student might start to wonder wait a minute I'm forced to go to school right and By the government like even if the parents didn't want me to go to school. I either have I'm forced to either go to school or to do some Home-based program and prove to the authorities that it's that it's the same as going to school Or or qualitatively the same as going to school How is that not in voluntary servitude right? We need a new abolition is what we need and I think that the abolition needs to begin with our children and and until Until we liberate our children from the government school stemming We've got politicians deciding what our children should learn really is that this is where we this is where we are politicians are deciding what goes into my child's head That's wrong on so many levels, but until until we emancipate our children Nothing's gonna change. This is this is where the rubber hits the road where children learn where the citizenry where all of us This is where we learn and and so long as the state is telling us everything that this state does is good and noble and moral Nothing is going to change and I Can't I can't even think of things that the state might do that are good and noble and moral Just it's astonishing. Yeah, there's a great great quote from 1897 That I read recently reprinted in the libertarian forum. It's by Austin Wright He says parents are responsible for the existence of their children and nothing should be done by the state that interferes with Or impairs that natural responsibility Therefore every parent should be left free to use such educational agencies and methods as are by him deemed fittest for the education Of his children and later. He also says love of offspring is the strongest affection with which we are endowed And if left free its natural promptings will be sufficient incentive to impel the provision of better educational facilities than are possible in any other way and so the state is really interfering with that the expression of that love of offspring and and it's really sort of Nash it's sort of rationalized children in a way and and it's really the state really hates any kind of Yeah, any kind of rival for its affections and its loyalties and So the family is is one key rival And so it kind of makes sense that that that's why the state is trying to To break down the family really and trying to become the the child's family If only the you know what I think about that quote is if only I wish that parents Really understood That they are responsible. They're responsible for that. They are completely and totally responsible for the education of their children And if they're not do their children really belong to them? I think that the state would have us believe that our children don't belong to us, but they do and I don't mean belong in like a property, but They are to be cared for by us We are to know them very well And I think that by sending them off to the state from a very young age. We lose a vital connection with our children I think that that we need to have them with us It needs to be a day-to-day relationship building and the fact that we don't have them with us every day every hour of the day it makes that relationship building different and There there's nothing There's nothing that can substitute for the relationship that you have with your children when you're with them all of the time and The the bonds that connect you are different. You're you're building You're building a family culture together where they feel valued and where their interests they are those those things are valued and This isn't what they get in school, you know, they're not treated as individuals in school they they're part of a group a part of a collective and When they're at home That's different each child is different a parent knows their children if they're with them all of the time and this is incredibly important the individual is So important to a healthy To a healthy society, but we don't necessarily want a healthy society. We want a collective which is much easier to sort of manage So yeah Having your children at home. There's those those bonds of affection are incredibly important and if we don't have them Then they need something and so they're going to look to the state and I think that I think that that's That's part of it is this idea that the state is mother and father and husband and wife And all of the things that mother and father and husband and wife would provide for you the state is trying to provide for us now and Yeah, they would really like to see that not be so strong a bond and the bond between parents and children I think that that's incredibly important and when a child feels like the state is their parent Um, and that they must obey that parent. That's a that's a dangerous thing Murray Rothbard, uh talks a lot about um several of the points you just made in his Short book education free and compulsory. We love that book in our home. Oh, yes We read it. We read it together a few years ago. We love it. Great. Yeah For one thing he talks about um the individuality of children And the individuality of humans in general and um, he he quotes the reverend George Harris Who says savage savagery is uniformity Savages think alike or not at all and converse therefore in monos syllables There there's scarcely any variety only a horde of men women and children The next higher stage which is called barbarism is marked by increased variety of functions There's some division of labor some interchange of thought better leadership more intellectual and aesthetic cultivation The highest stage which is called civilization shows the greatest degree of specialization distinct functions become more numerous The rudimentary societies are characterized by the like the likeness of equality the developed Societies are marked by the unlikeness of inequality or variety As we go down monotony as we go up variety As we go down persons are more alike as we go up persons are more unlike It certainly seems as though the approach to equality is declined toward the conditions of savagery And though variety is an advance And as though variety is an advance towards higher civilization And this gets at something that Rothbard and Mises stressed in that um, the mark of civilization is the division of labor And the division of labor rests on variety the the reason why the division of labor is so productive is because that everybody has um different skills different uh capacities um different ends and um And so the public school system by Putting children on on what Rothbard calls the procrustian bread and procrustian bed I don't know if the word crust made me think of bread or something. It's a terrible sandwich of oppression But the the story of pro-procrusties is that he's this ancient greek monster or villain who would Lay his victims on this stone bed And if they were shorter than the bed he would stretch them to match the length of the bed Or a few was they were taller than the bed and they chop off his feet and legs and um, and so this Procrustian bed is where you just force equality basically and so But the public schools by trying to homogenize children Um that it's really a Decivilizing force, isn't it right it is and I I like the because parents have um They have more um um I guess direct interaction with their children's feet. I like to use the analogy of shoes instead of beds because um shoes are very interesting and if we were to say All eight-year-old children must wear a size four shoe And if the eight-year-old child does not have a size four foot We will either bind the foot to make it fit our state shoe Or we will give the child growth hormones and put the shoe on a rack to stretch it out In order to make it fit the state size four shoe that makes no sense This and and you know all analogies eventually break down, but um, you know, imagine if you had a ballerina Are you going to put her in ice skates? How is she going to do that? And imagine if you had someone who who is really going to be a steel worker Are you really going to put him in organ shoes? No But this is what the state wants to do. They have one shoe and for this age This is the size of the shoe. This is the type of the shoe And if you find yourself stumbling over your feet, then that's called the learning disability And you must be drugged for that and if you find that the shoes are too tight Um, and they hurt you that's another psychological problem. And you can probably be drugged for that too So, um, yeah, I I use the crusty and shoe And parents seem to understand that pretty well Well and some concrete applications of that are there there are some kids who, um Aren't fit for the, um Um super regimented Uh lifestyle that schools impose on them and so they end up getting drugged by with with Ritalin Until they fit the procrastion demands of the school, right and and you know what What I what I understand I've I've been working with with with babies and toddlers and Children and adolescents and young adults for about three decades now And what I what I've come to understand is that a growing child is a wiggling a child if a child is not wiggling That means the child is not growing But growing children need to wiggle they need to move And it is really there's something the matter if a growing child is not moving around if they can sit still in a chair For three hours at a stretch you've got a problem Because you've got a child who has broken the the natural mold and has has for whatever reason something has happened And their their natural inclination is going to be to move they physically hurts them if they're not moving when they're growing So if you've got a child who is so intent on being obedient that they will actually ignore At a drive a desire as basic as moving because it's it's hurtful not to move you got a problem It would be it would be um and this is another example It would be the same as if a child needed to get up and use the bathroom But they wouldn't do it and that's actually becoming another thing that happens in schools No, you may not use the bathroom until such and such a time This is this is ridiculous We will tell you when you eat we will tell you when you go to the bathroom We will tell you when you're going to move The the child has an internal mechanism that tells him when it's time to do these things And what we're telling the child is no do not listen to the natural mechanism Do as you are told obey and obey whom obey the state We do have sort of this idea that children Should go through an assembly line and that at certain times they should do certain things and at this age We attach this particular Mechanism to your brain and then at this age we attach this to your brain, but that's not how people work People are completely different people in the same family are completely different You might have one who is ready for the language Module to go in at age three. You might have one that isn't talking until age five You might have one that reads at age five and one that doesn't read until age 13 And those are all normal just like certain babies crawl at this time and certain babies Crawl at this time plus three months. Nobody's saying Gosh, you really are going to need some remedial crawling. Aren't you that doesn't happen And we don't we don't worry too much if if a baby isn't walking at exactly 12 months We we give them there's sort of a window during which we say, okay This is usually when it happens, but even outside of that window It's still okay. And what you find is that children usually by five years old are walking and running and skipping and some are turning cartwheels The the child that walked early is no better a walker than the child that walked late by the time they're five years old They it all works out Getting back to the parents versus the state and in who has tutelage over the children There was a very notorious ad on MSNBC by host Melissa Harris Perry Where she talks she talks about um How we need to stop thinking about Children as belonging to the parents or belonging to the family that we need to start that was stunning, wasn't it? We need to start thinking about them in terms of belonging to the community. Yeah, isn't that sweet? Polly Did that not make the hair on the back of your neck stand up? um, I I was I was really glad that I had um The self-control not to actually throw my computer across the room when I saw that children And so far as they belong to anyone children belong to their family. Um, they belong to themselves first their sovereign um If if they belong to anyone they belong to their family. They certainly do not belong to the community They don't they don't belong to the state. I mean that just on its face is ridiculous. I can't um I'm communicating at the level of rage when I think about this woman But no no children belong to themselves first of all They're not made to meet the needs of the state in some forced fashion. This isn't um This idea of of the child's greatest good is to live for someone else That's not that's not acceptable um Their their lives are worthy and valuable as individuals And this idea that that we belong to community and that it's that it's That it's widely accepted People thought this was a good idea. They thought oh, yes, she's right The children do belong to the community. No stop thinking that children belong to themselves if anyone Children belong to their families, but they're individuals. They do not belong to the community what really Gets me about how she ends that video is that she says Once we stop making it um an individual ownership thing and we start once everybody Owns the kids then we'll start making better investments And and it's just amazing because that's exactly the opposite of the of economic teaching in general That even if you were to consider children as not sovereign Even if you were to can to sort of dehumanize them and and consider them as just a resource Just the the basic idea of economics is that I mean it goes back to Aristotle when he when he talks about That which nobody owns nobody will care for because if everybody owns it then really nobody owns it Really, I don't really want my children handled the way in which we handled the dmv. That's really not I'm just thinking what are they gonna do? They're gonna handle them the way that they handle the buffalo in the national parks What what? I'm thinking, you know, high nrand must have just been spinning in her coffin, which Can you imagine? Wow um, I don't Yeah, children are not a resource Children are individuals. They're human beings. This is something that a lot of people don't get is that children are human beings They're There are some people who love their children very much, but they're still thinking that they might be pets who talk But they're sovereign And at at the point where where we can sort of release them to their to their to their own recognizance They're completely sovereign, but we try and make them sovereign step by step by step and this idea that they belong to the community It's just mind-blowing um, you mentioned iron rand and one of the things that she said is that if If she had her Way all philosophy would be Aristotle all economics would be mesis and all Education would be monosori. Yeah, she's right And um, you're you're you mentioned monosori earlier. Um, would you like to talk a little bit about the What monosori? Um, the monosori method is and how you apply it to homeschooling Sure I started reading monosori when I was about 15 I was I was really fortunate that I was involved with a child development lab in which we read About child development theories and we read a lot of monosori And then we would be behind sort of a two-way mirror and then we could actually watch the directors the the guide actually interact with children and so We um, we read about the developmental planes and we read about how how children actually How they compose themselves not how they learn not how adults stuff information into their brains But how children act in a prepared environment and how they how they create themselves with with their hands and with their minds The mind is particularly important to monosori It's the hand that's driven by intelligence that allows the child to compose themselves so That was that was my beginning that was really my my my first sort of twinkling and As I as I went on I read more monosori and somehow when I was in my 20s Um, the Michael Olaf catalog. This was such a strange thing out of the blue showed up at my house And I started reading more monosori and I was looking at monosori materials. And so she's really um, she's she's my hero um, I and the Things that monosori teaches about children and individuals really It's almost hand in glove with austrian economics. It's very um, very sympathetic and I just I love What it is that she tells us about children and monosori surely did not tell us about all children because they're individuals but she could tell us That most children go through these developmental planes and each developmental plane is about six years and Um, there are sensitive periods and there are needs and capacities and most children Go through these planes and these are the needs that are typical for this plane of development And we've sort of lost that as parents. This was sort of an intuitive thing that we knew about our children But we've we've lost it because we don't have them with us all of the time They're off with someone else and so reading monosori really will put this information back into your brain and then Even better is she tells you how to observe a child and the the observation Of a child is incredibly important Um, you you have to observe your child so that you and i'm going to use modern jargon, but So that you know what their dominant modalities are are they are they taking in information mostly through their eyes or mostly through their ears Are they they're always going to be taking information in through their hands But there are some children that really they're they're they're really going to be hearing things And that's how they want their information And there are others that are really going to be seeing things and that's how they want their information And if you know how to observe the child you can figure that out and you can Avoid frustrating the child if you know their dominant modalities The other thing is if you can really observe a child you can figure out Where during their day are they're getting their needs and capacities most completely met? And if you can go to where the child is getting their needs and capacities met And you can observe the child there you can find out massive amounts of information about what's going on with the child But you have to be quiet and you have to be humble and you have to sit back And you have to listen and watch you have to see how they're interacting with things And this observation will give you tremendous amounts of information about your child. Who are you? What are you interested in? How do you learn best? What is really making the little neurons in your head sing? This is a beautiful thing to watch a child Learning of of their own accord. Wow. You can you can't miss it. You can see there You know, we've got a girl who lives down the street And there's some there must be some poor child in the world walking around Um clumsy as can be because she took a double helping of physical coordination And when I see her I think this child needs to be in a gymnasium at least eight hours a day because this is her This is this is her natural sweet spot and you can see this in children if you just will sit back and observe and You have to be humble and you have to not have sort of preconceived notions about what children are like and um, you have to be willing to to Put aside what you think this child is really going to be like to see what the child is really like and from there Then you can figure out how to make um Things sort of coalesce around your child that they need All sorts of resources people peers that they will need in order to construct themselves And that's the environment that I like to construct You talk about Not it's not really about stuffing their brains with information But it's about their own learning process and murray murray Rothbard says that ultimately all education is self education And um, there are these great Examples in the news recently of these amazing accomplishments in terms of homeschooling and And for example, there was the Harding family in Montgomery, Alabama. They have this I think they have a website called like college before 12 and Six six of their kids started college by the age of 12 and the the remaining four kids are under 10 And also aim to go to college early and so they've just had huge Academic success with these kids And one of the things that the mother stresses is that she keeps saying I am not brilliant My husband is not brilliant. Even my kids aren't brilliant. It's just about she said we find out what their passions are What they really like to study and we accelerate them gradually. So they just Put uh in front of put things in front of them resources in front of them that just Went along with what they were interested in and there's another great story in the news about Jacob Barnett and the son of christine It was an autistic teen Who is now working on an astrophysics phd and what's remarkable is that the Therapists the so-called experts Were telling the mother that he will Uh never go beyond just just the basic rudiments of self-care that he he will never really be able to accomplish much of of anything and um To her credit she didn't listen to them and she just pulled him out of the therapy program And just started putting things in in front of him. Um, she it started with just sitting on the hood of the car Looking at the stars and talking because that's what he loved. Mm-hmm and and just talking about the stars and then just um taking into plantariums and just um She says that she credits her son's success to quote putting her son in as many rich situations As she could find and so that's really heartening because a lot of people who are considering homeschooling They they might think oh well i'm not i'm not that smart like i don't i don't know about austrian economics Like i i haven't had time to read all these mesis.org things. Um, you know, how am i gonna How am i going to be able to impart things that i don't even understand myself? But that's kind of the fallacy, isn't it that that it's it's all about just the approach that you don't have to Know a lot. You just need to be willing to Uh follow the the child's passions and put in front of them Um the resources that that they can use to teach themselves um and another thing you talked about is like People not just things but people but people as resources And you've you've taken your kids uh to the mesis institute and you got to introduce them to uh scholars here and um and they have role models other kinds of role models too Um, so could you just kind of like talk a little bit about that? Yes How exciting is that how thrilling is that that? We have these great examples and what's more is that they're available to us I mean, we would never have heard don't don't you love her first name Mona Lisa? I think that's fantastic. Um, so we have access to what it is that she's done and how Delightful to know that she actually followed the child and she thought okay, this child likes this So i'm really going to give them as much of this as I can and yes, she slowly accelerates them and um, so apparently the right path for Most of her children somehow ended up being college. I you know, okay good Yeah, it doesn't have to be for everyone. That's right. That works that works for them and then jacob barnett Who um has this has this diagnosis that's really challenging um But then it turns out that that it's really not a diagnosis a challenging diagnosis so much as it is his identity Um a child who is is going to be an astrophysicist perhaps is not going to present in the same way Is a child who um is going to be an economist. They're going to look different They're going to talk differently and she knew that she was going to be able to give him sort of this nest Of great opportunities and people to to put him in contact with and so that's what she did And what happens when you put a child in that sort of environment when you give them all of these resources and these people Um, they they blossom in ways that you wouldn't expect I have a child who's a musician I can't read music But he's definitely a musician Music is one of the only things that I know that I cannot teach I can't teach music But I have a musician in the house and we have a grand piano in the house now and he's he's taking um two instruments and he's involved in A boy choir and he's involved in an adult choir and there's a lot of music And I don't know the least thing about music theory But my son does and that's because he's been given a lot of resources and he's been put in contact with a lot of people And that's really as much as you really have to do you you really must do that But beyond that if you found the place where your child lives if you found their sweet spot That's about as much as you really have to do and you have to drive the places to do Now that gets at sort of another thing that the public school does that's just so terrible Is that it imposes this artificial separation between Between the child world and the adult world and never the two shall meet and and Not only that but it imposes it sort of corrals kids into these age homogenous groups And so they never they they rarely get to learn from uh from older kids or get to learn from Um teaching younger kids or or role modeling for younger kids and and just the experience is is Much less rich than it used to be it it used to be before the public school movement took over that That kids were very Gradually and starting at an early age Integrated into the adult world and um So did you want to talk a little bit about that? you know one of one of the the sore spots of being the mother of children in 2013 is this idea that children are not allowed to work These child labor laws. I think it's just I think it's inhumane. Yeah Children particularly as they reach adolescence between 12 and 15 They're sort of rewiring their entire brains and they really need physical work What's more is they need to be in the company of adults They need to be earning money. This is very important to them and this time of apprenticeship or internship with adults is very important to The construction of human being especially for an adolescent and we have cut this off completely And they go kind of into this terrible no man's land called middle school, which is awful It's like a holding cage and it's it's socially terrible and When they could be out gainfully employed And they could be working in the shop or they could be working In the garden they could they're all sorts of things they could do and in fact Montessori addresses this With the earth kinder and this is a time when the children It's called the children of the earth and what they're doing is they're going out and they're gardening and they're farming And they're working in the shop and they're also working in the place where they live to sort of maintain a bed and breakfast and not a whole lot of of Intellectual rigor is stressed during this time because they really need to be working And the separation of child from work It's scandalous children need to work. They need to feel like they are productive Members of their their family productive members of their community. Yes They need to know that they can make money and they need to know that their work is important They also need to get some very basic skills and they need to also know that they're not Indispensable they need to know that somebody behind them can take their job. So they're going to have to work hard We separate children from this and then we wonder why we get the results that we do We really need to have children and adults together more One of the most horrible consequences of this is Um, it's become sort of a truism that People will say, oh, well, you know that your child is eventually going to hate you That eventually they reach a certain age where they're just too cool for their parents that that their parents are so embarrassing And that they they only want to talk to their friends and they don't want to talk to their parents anymore But I think that is an artifact that I think you're right that it's an artifact of the school system and um Because it when you read letters from before the public school movement from early america where Where parents or where kids talk about their parents when they're older when they're when they're teenagers They they speak with love and reverence and and throughout their whole life it's just an uninterrupted relationship of love and reverence and appreciation and and um And that seems to have been broken. It has been broken. And I think consider consider this If you really hate going to school and you feel like school is hurting you it might be hurting you intellectually It might be hurting you socially it might be hurting you morally And your parents Are sending you to your tour mentors day in and day out. Are you not going to have an adversarial relationship with them? Is there not going to be a certain amount of disdain That you hold towards the people who are supposed to defend you and protect you from this Yeah, I think that's going to happen and this idea that children can't make decisions because they might make the quote-unquote wrong decisions Well, I've got to tell you I've seen adults make some really wrong decisions I can think of some decisions that my children would have made better than some adults that I've seen in congress even recently and um Yes, children are going to make mistakes adults make mistakes all the time when adults make mistakes We think of it as a personal choice when a child makes a mistake We think of it as some sort of a character defect or flaw that must be exercised from them It's it's not it's not right and also isn't it to some degree this sort of lord of the flies type situation that we put kids in where uh during during recess and and just in general, uh, it's so Um The the separation between the adult world and the and the child world is so concrete that that that there's no Intermingling with all kinds of age groups all the way from from kids that are younger than them up through the elderly And so they begin to identify only with their age group And and so they they kind of think of they start to think of adults as the other right and This um, this is one of the things that we really love about homeschooling is that our children Are in contact with babies and toddlers and children their age and adolescents and they're with adults and older adults as well and so um this whole myth of socialization which It's like for for austrians you say roads for homeschoolers you say socialization My socialization. Well, yeah, it is ironic, isn't it that's that they they think that the homeschooling is deficient In socialization when really it's the opposite. It's the public schools with that Yes, you're going to be with everyone who is in your zip code who makes the same amount of money as your mommy and daddy And who probably looks like you And um, and this is socialization. Give me a break, you know Our children are out in the world and they're meeting people all of the time different people older people younger people People who who worship differently than they do people who don't worship at all. It's terrific What terrific opportunities they have because they're not stuck in a place, you know, they're not stuck at home. They're out They're in it So one thing that's coming up is a um Mises academy course called the basics of economics action and exchange which is the first of three courses Called each of it is called basic economics and it covers robert murphy's Lessons for the young economist a book. We love. Yes. Uh, you're some going to be taking that course. I think he is Yes, he's um, he's looking much forward to it. Um, bob murphy is one of his favorite economists and um, you know, he's really had a great experience with Mises circles, for example, he went and met tom woods and tom de lorenzo And robert higgs, uh, I guess it was almost two years ago And sometimes he'll send an email to robert higgs and he'll say what do you think about this and robert higgs will answer back It delights him. Yes, it pleases him a great deal and um, they have sort of a very sweet mutual admiration society, but um The scholars here at mises are very accessible and we love that, you know, he was here um, he was here at the close of mises university and we were sitting down for dinner and Here comes robert higgs to sit down with us and we felt like wow, that's really special But then here comes bob murphy and he sits down and you know, all of a sudden we've got this vegas feeling We're like wow two cherries. We could actually hit a jackpot and here comes tom woods and and the lights go off and ding ding ding things we had all three of them there and um, this was wonderful and we we often come To events that are here and auburn and we're so lucky. We're only two hours away And we love the high school seminars and we we love the lectures that are on the website The um the essays it's all there the books marie rothbard's books, you know, we read them right there on the computer and We we may be the only people Um on the planet who have ever really studied the structure of rothbard sentences But we sometimes diagram them because they're a little bit chewy and it helps So we we like doing that and um, yeah We're definitely going to be taking advantage and more and more as he gets older of mesis academy and all of the things that you All have to offer. We're really thankful for that So one thing that happened recently is you you got a friend request from david gordon. That made my entire month That was the most exciting thing Isn't that terrible? Oh, wow. Yes. It's a david gordon. Just just requested your friendship on facebook. Wow That was amazing. I don't know. I don't I just I felt like being very still. I thought oh my gosh. I'm imagining this That was so cool. I'm a total fangirl That's fantastic and it's just fantastic that that enthusiasm gets passed on to your kids Yeah, we we you know, but I mean they make themselves so available um that and Listening to the lectures online um, you get a feeling for who these scholars are and um Like you can just tell that bob murphy has a great sense of humor that comes across but it's even a greater sense of humor in person and You know, we've met tom woods a couple of times and We just we're so fortunate. We just love that. We just love that. They're just around We try not to stalk them Well, I want to thank you so much for this fascinating conversation. Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed it a great deal Thank you for listening to the mesis academy podcast to enroll in online courses to access other episodes of this podcast Or for more information visit academy.mesis.org