 We live Hey friends, this is Dan Burke you're watching behind the scenes Divine intimacy radio. We're gonna be jumping into an interesting show on Exorcism and the Pope's Exorcist a new book out by Sophia Institute Press 101 questions about rather Gabriel Morse So before we get to the show I want to tell you about our Abola summit coming up in In 2023 it's called the Marian mystery in the triumph of the Immaculate Heart October 13th to the 15th and We're pretty excited about the crew that's going to be speaking there Bishop Liam Carey Clare Dwyer father John Burns father Ignatius Schweitzer sister regina Marie Gorman dr. Mark Maravalli Shrine of the most blessed sacrament in Hansville if you if you have a deep devotion to the blessed virgin And you want to learn more and you want to be around people who are on fire and holy and get lit up and Strengthen in your faith spiritual direction comm Forward slash events does that link actually work? Have you checked that? Because I tried it one time and it didn't take us to the page Maybe it was something wrong with my system. So spiritual direction comm forward slash events I'm asking the lady in charge of such things and You'll find all of our events there Spiritual direction comm forward slash events. I also want to tell you about a series. I just finished Recently on mental prayer that's meant for personal use small groups or parachutes You can find out that it's free Cost us a lot, but it was free We want to make it free because we want we want people to know Jesus in a deeper way in a deeper way and You can find out about that at spiritual direction comm forward slash prayer PRA YER and Sign up for that. So always wanting to give you guys opportunities to Grow in the interior life. And so we're gonna jump into the show Are you ready? Yep? Any market set go This is Dan and Jordan Burke. Welcome to divine intimacy radio your radio Haven a breath your monastery of the mind No, you should totally rest that out So every time this is gonna be a recurring theme. Yeah, so he's not the normal co-host Stephanie Burke is the normal co-host. So I say Radio Haven arrest your your hermitage of the heart Hey friends, this is Dan and Jordan Burke Welcome to divine intimacy radio your radio Haven a breath your hermitage of the heart You're a monastery of the mind where we lift our hearts and minds to heaven To draw on the wisdom of the saints to help us to navigate the tumult of this life You just didn't say it with all that much conviction. You said it like almost like with a question. It was a Felt strange Navigating how to say it. All right. Well Jordan's on the show today because He is actually representing a book for Sophia and to press and I mean I wanted to talk about him We only have two mics in the studio, but he's gonna fix that eventually And the book is the pope's ex ex exorcist 101 questions about father Gabriel Amorth Jordan was chosen as the Smoked person because he's good at it and because he's I think read every book in print on on Exorcism and this this topic and in fact We have we have three other books sitting here in the studio by Sophia's to press on father Amorth Once you name them off. Yeah, so father Amorth my battle against Satan an exorcist explains the demonic and the devil is afraid of me And I think they may have another one that just couldn't find it on my shelf in time Right. Those are also if you press and they're all by father Gabriel Amorth great books and Jordan if you didn't know Jordan, I mean obviously our relationship everybody knows but he has a great apostle It called do the harder thing which is part of our work here and he also works here every day His job is many jobs Digital media specialists, and he works in outreach through Instagram and all kinds of stuff like that And our research now and a cult research, right exactly. It's actually yeah, it's becoming a big issue So who was this guy father Gabriel Amorth? this exorcist of many what you know Tell me about him. So father Gabriel Amorth was an exorcist in Rome For a number of years, but what's fascinating about his life is that he didn't he started feeling the cult of priesthood I think it was about 12 years old But he didn't become ordained until he was 32 prior to becoming ordained. He was involved in politics He fought for the resistance and World War two And then he actually helped the Italian Prime Minister at the time write their Constitution So yeah, yeah, he had a hand at forming the Italian Constitution. So he's a crummy student, but a bright guy Did I read that right? Well, he yeah, so he was a bad student But he which is interesting because he was a fun phenomenal teacher. Mm-hmm. And so he taught a lot He spoke a lot. He wrote a lot. Obviously, there's just some of his books here But he became ordained at 32 years old But what's really fascinating about his the path that his life kind of took is that he didn't become an Exorcist until he was in his 60s So he's a priest from 32 to like let's just say 60. Yeah, then he becomes an exorcist He passes in 2016 at the age of 91. So he's very recent as well. Mm-hmm, but from 60s to, you know Kind of up until before he passed. He was performing exorcisms full-time But he's also an amazing figure because Padre Pio was a spiritual director. Mm-hmm, which a lot of people don't know Which is really interesting And he helped form the IAE which is the International Association of Exorcists He had a real strong heart and desire to help liberate people and he saw the need clearly And what he wanted to do was pass on the information that he was gaining from as many exorcists I mean, I'll just say he performed up to 60,000 exorcisms crazy over the course of that short period of time Wow, that's every day all day. Yeah Well, he was seeing up upwards of 17 people. I think a day at some point at one point and then he Lessened it. I think I unknowingly walked through his the waiting room in Rome Yeah, in 2007 it was on honeymoon with Stephanie and At the top of Scala Santa, which is right across from St. John Lateran in Rome And which is the Basilica of Rome Or the the seat of the Bishop of Rome. Sure. A lot of people think it's St. Peter's, but it's not and At the top of the stairs, there's there was a waiting room and I did I thought this is weird because it's like a holy place Scala Santa's the stairs that Oh gosh, who was the big Constantine's mother Helen? Brought that were Jesus was at the top of those stairs when Pontius Pilate said behold the man Right. So uh, so his blood is on those stairs and all that so she Cap, you know got them and brought them to Rome, but um The I remember that waiting room and I thought this is so weird later came to find out and it makes sense to do exorcisms in a holy place Right, you know, I've been involved in I think 24 full right exorcisms and Always of course in a church always with in our case was with Mass and all of that But I can imagine if you wanted to pick a place in Rome You would pick a very holy place and that's probably why it was there, right? Very cool. So what's the big deal about? Gabriel Amorth. I mean He's he's he's by far the most well known Uh exorcist, I think, you know, I think a couple others of like Father Ripper more recently But um, I think there are more books out about him and by him, of course They just they're just big movie just came out with Russell Crowe, right? That I I'm hearing I've seen and I've heard it's got a lot of errors in it. Yeah Yeah, I've heard the same thing But um, I think it was just that he was so prolific And so willing to speak on these topics, you know, there's not outside of scripture outside of books here and there There wasn't really any sort of definitive text On what exorcists do what they're dealing with and people need to know I mean, it's one of the things that we talk about here Uh, people need to know, you know, people need to understand the reality of the enemy and how he attacks and how you can defend yourself And those sorts of things and he spoke on that and he wrote on that I mean, all of these books are basically questions and answers, especially this the new one popes exorcists It's just like here's a question. Here's an answer. This is the reality and you want to talk about Uh an authority on on this topic. I mean if you've done 60 000 exorcisms Your what's it's 10 000 hours makes you an expert Yeah, something like that. Yeah, so 60 000 60 000 exorcisms some of them going over multiple hours Yeah, I wasn't just an expert. Whatever the level above expert is right. That's where he's at It's interesting. You think people uh, I I'm always a little blown away By people who blow off the wisdom of an exorcist. It's very strange I I I watched a video sometime recently about whether or not Lady can cast out demons by a good human being that I Have respect for uh scholar in in another area But their argument was a little strange to me because they they you know, the exorcists have often mourned You know lady have to be careful. Yeah, right and there's authority roles. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean I just saw a video recently with Adam Bly Who's a layman but involved in this world for his diocese and also He's even been a peritus or a or a witness. He's been he's been allowed places where One he's he's been appointed to a place from the church that says hey you help teach Yeah, they need to know. Yeah, and I heard him talk about how somebody in one instance Uh one specific case the lay person laid hands on a person to To cast out an even they were possessed themselves Yeah, the I know what you're talking about the person didn't have authority in that case Yeah, they were laying on hands and they were using prayers and properly Which kind of goes into authority as well But the that combination of things ended up getting that person possessed And I think if I remember the video correctly, you said that that person's still possessed to this day Yeah, or at least in according to his knowledge. Yeah, I heard the same thing And what's crazy is the comment was made. Well, that's just opinion And I thought that's like saying, uh, uh, surgeon who's done 10 000 surgeries and maybe you've done 20 Uh discounting that surgeon's experience as just opinion Is I was I thought it was egregiously arrogant And uh dangerous and prideful. I mean it's just I struck me as wow you just said that Yeah, I almost I wish there was a you know, because there's the the saying the consensus of the theologians Yeah, I want to I want this saying to become more known. You know, what's the consensus of exorcists? Yeah, you know, right because these are the guys who are on the front lines who are dealing with this stuff face to face who are getting knowledge in a different way that That only a few people so in your case having an having assisted in full right exorcisms multiple times You have more knowledge than the average lay person, right? Like there's this structure of Not necessarily authority, but expertise on the matter and at the top of that structure is exorcists, right? Well, in particularly very experienced ones like amoris or or uh Father chad ripper great, right, you know, and I that it doesn't mean that they become infallible suddenly But it would be foolish to discard their advice and I've I've heard a number of times, you know things that father morse have said and people go I you know father morse said this, but I don't agree. I'm thinking Wow, who are you? right And when it comes to demons, I mean, I think part of the issue is Is that unless you experience? Uh, what it's like to hear one to see one And I've had the unfortunate experience A lot of people don't know that I uh, my mother was involved in the occult and and I um I was pretty tormented. I actually don't like talking about it But I did actually see the demonic and I did have to personally go through deliverance As a young christian after I came to christ And then of course subsequently being involved in these exorcisms hearing the voice of demons I've described a number of times being lifted off the ground By someone who could barely walk uh three guys at the same time And I just think I don't know. I think that kind of hubris Comes when you have not seen or experienced some of those things because you underestimate You overestimate your authority not jesus authority because we're seeking to obliterate All the demons in a snap of the fingers so to speak Um, but you overestimate your authority Yes, we have power uh in the name of jesus and by our baptism But there's a distinction between power and authority that's often missed Right that exorcist get right because they're trained and they understand if I step step out I have a certain amount of power But if I'm as an example if I'm not commissioned by the bishop I don't have authority and and the result is horrifically detrimental horrifically detrimental not just the exorcist but to the person so We're talking about exorcists who have to know these things They have to know them at such a level that they don't make those mistakes because If they do It's horrifying. Yeah, it's horrifying. I mean what people suffer in exorcism Getting possessed is the last thing you want to ever want to experience. I don't think I was possessed I think I was oppressed sure, but what I experienced every night in my dreams waking up screaming You know remembering what I saw as a kid You I mean I would call that on a scale of one to ten of severity probably A five or a six for me What I I probably a four now that I think about what I saw in actual exorcisms On a scale of one to ten ten being the most severe was like a 50. Yeah, it was I'm like, you know And that's why I'm Cautious, you know adam when we get back from the break I want to talk about what adam bly said about the power of Command prayers versus supplication prayers in this context, so we'll be right back Um, just remember at the end of the show. You've got to grab that and say that I want to do two we can do two Huh? Yeah, yeah, we'll get to that. I think. Um If you want to do two we can do two I know Maggie's been asking and so we don't have to squeeze it all into one But it's up to your schedule and whatever. Okay. We'll we'll kind of see how it rolls out. Um So before we jump back in folks, uh, remember spiritualdirection.com forward slash prayer PRA y er for a very for a very expensive, but free to you high quality Course expensive to us Zero cost for you to be real cost to you on a mental prayer Five part series was a five part Debbie anyway, it's it's very spiritualdirection.com forward slash prayer And then um the upcoming summit avala summit mary and mystery in the triumph of the macula heart October 13th through the 15th. You can find both of those also at And the events page at spiritualdirection.com All right, let's jump back into the show and this one we have to do 12 on your mark is it 12 uh 30 so we did 13 the last one so 12 30. Yeah, okay on your mark. Is it go Welcome back. This is dan and jordan berkin divine intimacy radio talking about The pope's exorcist father gabriel and more so I mentioned before the break That adam blives an expert in this area was talking about how laying out of hands Um can be dangerous and and father morrth By the way, what did he say about laying out of hands father morrth? Yes, well, I also want to note that adam blies books are also sold by sophia press Probably edwt in religious catalog and all that kind of stuff, but adam blies phenomenal So what's fascinating? I want to provide some context of this because this I think is really important father morrth was a huge proponent Of the charismatic renewal, right? So keep that in mind proko is charismatic father ripper is a little more critical Sure, and father morrth wasn't no. He was very very pro charismatic. He spoke very highly of them How so keep that in mind as you as you listen to this talking about laying on of hands Also, it is necessary to know that to do the prayers of liberation Well, one must keep one's hands firm At most raising a hand toward the person for whom you are praying at most like, you know Right. So like almost like saying hi or like you're gonna right. Yeah. He says at most but nothing more Nothing more I have preached to many groups of the renewal and I've always spoken clearly regarding this Then some go on to do whatever they wish because they are only exalting themselves But he goes on further to give reasonings. So the question is basically well, hold on like, you know Why is there directions? What are the directions? My recommendations for not imposing hands is this at times there are persons who have some negativity and in placing hands They transmit that negativity which goes to what we were talking about with uh adam bligh And his and the other person getting possessed and getting when he speaks of transmit the negativity. They're talking about Dark demonic spiritual influence, right? Moving from one person to another through the exercise of an of an action that they don't have authority to exercise He goes on and that's what he goes on to hear another reason even stronger is because it is a priestly gesture And he can place his hands on the head of one he is guiding in prayer But only he and at the most on the head now he clarifies that yes, of course Spouses can lay hands on one another and on their children But he says very clearly in prayer groups I do not agree to it because again there can be someone who possesses a spell that transmits some negativity and he's so Um adamant on this fact that he says I was with various persons all very spiritual But they had their hands placed on a shoulder which bothered me terribly So he's he's uh, again. This is a guy who's very pro charismatic renewal. Yeah very supportive of them But also it was very clear to say there are some I you know, I've told them multiple times Don't do this right continue to do it and it's interesting to me that he says it's because they are exalting themselves Um, so I don't know there's there's a whole lot there and it's back to that same thing And I don't being repetitive is not always a great thing to do But if you've had a surgeon who did 10 000 surgeries versus somebody who's got a cursory knowledge I think you're kind of stupid not to listen to them. I think you're arrogant not to listen I just give if I could just be bold and I don't really want to accuse anyone of that I don't like that kind of right. I don't like division in the church. I don't like being critical of other people Well, but in this case that clarity and that boldness can save somebody's soul Right because of the the potential of what could happen If people don't heed the words of somebody who actually knows what he's talking about So you're listening to Dan and Jordan Burke on divine intimacy radio. We're talking about a new book From sophia institute press called the pope's exorcist 101 questions about father Gabriel amorth now out of curiosity to father ripper as a new book called dominion, which I think it's extraordinary work and in it I He has what what amorth is has done Before before ripper and keep me on track where this is In in the early 19th century Exorcism started to go out of fashion Because of modern psychology and scientism and just the arrogance of modernity like oh, we don't need that silly stuff anymore So a lot of wisdom was lost and I've heard multiple actresses talk about this So amorth came to prominence because he started to really compile that wisdom He started that institute of exorcism or the the association and then of course More recently father ripper is doing that and compiled the work dominion Go ahead in my opinion If you're going to compare it to anything this is like again, this is my opinion the summa Of angelology and demonology. There's nothing out there like this. Nothing is not nothing and You know the thing about him that I appreciate is everything he does. He backs up with references to church tradition that sort of thing, but he He in particular makes a distinction between authority and power And he notes that just because you have the power to cast out demons doesn't mean you have the authority to cast out demons But regardless did amorth? Have that same kind of structured thought or or is we just seeing ripper Developing it post to morpher. Did you see because I know you've read every one of his books. Yeah, that's a good question I feel as if He has a father morphe has implied it. I don't I can't think of anything where he talked about it explicitly, you know, there's a case again where he's talking about laying on of hands um, and he says He has a caveat that says well in this case it was a son praying for his mother So it was appropriate. So he doesn't outright say there's a structure of authority here But it's implied with what he's saying. He's saying it's a mother and father Well, what does that imply a familial connection authority structure or those sorts of things? Yeah, does he Does he Talk about lay deliverance and what the late lay people can do. Yeah. Well, what's fascinating is one of his first books I think is the next just tells us tale He laments the fact that there are not more people involved in this sort of ministry But again, he's also very careful to say there are things that you can and can't do Yeah, you know, there there's there's a structure of authority for a reason Then and I think it's probably I don't recall any specific cases But I would assume he had seen people step outside of that and and get kind of caught up in Well, certainly the one with adam bligh. We talked about right. It's a is a great example So what's the most important wisdom from for our time from father morth in your opinion? Whether it's from the pope's exorcist or the other, you know, sofia text that he's published through Well, so there's two things I think I'll take it in two different directions One is he he was always saying read the gospels read the gospels read the gospels, right? What do you what what advice do you have for the priests read the gospels? What advice do you have for some read the gospels like that's his advice but on the side of Exorcism What's fascinating is that the number one way that people in his experience and father morse experience the number one way that people became possessed Was through a curse from somebody else interesting more often than not that curse was from a family member And he in the book relates a story about food that was cursed and ingested by another family member and then that woman became possessed So, you know what I hate about that is You know early on when I was learning about this My in my head the only way you get possessed is if you want to be possessed basically, right? And what I hate about that is it's like getting shot, you know Somebody can decide they're going to do something against you and they and they do it and you suffer, right? but it the reason I bring it up is because it is an example of Being on guard and being aware and being sacramentally healthy and praying, you know Monsignor Rosetti who we've had on multiple times That wrote in one of his blogs about praying over all of his food because he was with a woman who has particular gifts And she was like father You need to pray over that So it's not a it's not a you know, people shouldn't hear that and think oh, man I'm going to get cursed. Yeah. No, just live a healthy sacramental life. See god pray You know, just do what the normative What's supposed to be the normative catholic life is and you know, you shouldn't have to worry And that doesn't mean things won't happen, but you shouldn't have to you know Yeah, and I want to do some clarifying too on this show just to make sure You know, I'm always surprised at how quickly and easily people misrepresent what's said even in the even real time Like when I'm doing zoom meetings. Oh, yeah, it's like somebody says you just said hey, I'm like, wow How did you get that? I didn't say anything? We're not against the charismatic movement. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we are not against lay deliverance. I've been involved in lay deliverance We are not against any any any in fact we're very Pro those who have given their lives to really help another people to get free Especially those brave souls who entered into the space that was vacated by the bishops and is now, you know Since john paul II's request By the way, did he didn't amor say something interesting about bishops who? He didn't appoint exorcist. He this is what got him some enemies But he was very outspoken and said if you're a bishop and you don't appoint an exorcist You're immortal sin. So just to be clear. Jordan Burke didn't say that that was father gave you more So he said they're in mortal sin. Why would he say that just because of the suffering of the people? Yeah, I mean, I think when you're that involved in liberation and helping people you recognize the limitations that have been placed upon you By different factors whether or not it's inside or outside the church regardless, but you want to eliminate those factors and Yeah, I what I've gotten from reading all of his work is his heart was just set on Liberating people and setting them free from their suffering. Yeah. Yeah, what do you think? You know, I think some of the fear is Is my opinion could be wrong is that if I engage I'm going to draw attention And and the fact is that's like pretending you're not in a war Right, you know and going and that you don't you're not surrounded by enemies If you don't engage you're going to be weak and get picked off You're going to be manipulated If you engage you actually get stronger you repel the enemy you give him less space I mean Yeah, you engaging means what is hidden comes to the fore, but I don't know. I'd rather fight something I can see Yeah, I I I struggle a lot with that question because I want to just I want to shake people in a loving way and say you're in the battle You can't put your head in the sand. Yeah, you know, I've I've said this ad nauseam People are probably sick of hearing me say it but catechism the council of trant has a section called audacity of demons This is a council. Yeah, and it says the war with them will not end their hatred against us is enormous There can be no peace. There can be no truce Okay, that's the council. What about the gospels the gospels make it clear the devil first peter five eight devil Prows about like a roaring and that's an epistle not the gospel. Thank you. Yeah, sorry. Yeah Getting worked up now. Yeah, but you know what I'm saying. Yeah, it's like you can't don't put your head in the sand You're I'm like you I want to see who's trying to harm me so I can at least defend myself Yeah, if the the idea that we can sit and oh if I don't do anything nothing's gonna happen It's like well, guess what that's exactly what the enemy wants because you're not going to progress And you're gonna get weak and that's the issue you're gonna get weak And you're gonna be easily manipulated and you know, it's it's it's also likely to take you to hell Because you're not awake. You're not fighting. You're not defending yourself So the pope's exorcist 101 questions about father gabriel and morth sofi institute press. I'm sure it's carried at Uh, it'll be 10s religious catalogas are all good books Thanks for coming on the show and helping on the front end. You're always on the back end behind the scenes Helping us to produce it, but Folks, you want to learn more as well on this topic go to spiritual direction.com. We have thousands of articles On the interior life videos Maybe even thousands of videos by now. Yeah, and uh, we'll help you grow in your faith Yep, until next time may the god of peace make you perfect in holiness may he preserve you whole and entire spirit So on body you're approachable with the coming of our lord jesus christ amen