 Welcome to Making Leadership Work on ThinkTech. I'm your host today, Kariman Lee. Our show is called Recognition for Justices, and we're going to talk to Justice Sabrina McKenna, who just received an international award. She's been a role model to many over the years. It is also credit to Hawaii when our own justices and judges receive awards of this caliber. If you want to ask a question or participate in this discussion, you can tweet us at thinktech.hi or call us at 808-374-2014. Our guest for the show is Associate Justice Sabrina McKenna of the Hawaii Supreme Court. She has been on the court since 2011, and before that served in the state's Family Court, District Court, and Circuit Courts. She has also been a litigator, corporate counsel, and law professor at UH's Richardson School of Law where she also graduated. Justice McKenna was a recent recipient of the Association of Corporation Council Foundation Global Women in Law and Leadership Award. We will discuss Justice McKenna's major contributions in the legal profession that led to this award and what it means in the legal and judicial communities. Welcome to this show, Justice McKenna. It's Sabrina. Thank you so much for having me. We're so glad to have you. Well, you've been such a role model as we mentioned for so many. But this particular award is very impressive because of its international scope. So first, I'd like you to maybe first, let's show a picture of your one of five justices on the Hawaii Supreme Court. Yes. And this is his current court. Can you identify for us the justices? Sure. The seated in the middle is our Chief Justice Mark Rectonwald. Seated to the left of him is the most senior Associate Justice Paula Nakayama. To the standing to the left is Justice Richard Pollock. And standing to the right is Justice Michael Wilson. Right. And Sabrina, I know you were the third woman justice ever appointed to our Hawaii Supreme Court. And how many years has the Supreme Court been in existence in Hawaii? Well, if you start with the kingdom, it would be 1841. But if you start with the state, it's 1959. The first woman was, of course, Justice Roto Lewis with statehood in 1959. Right. Well, it's very impressive. You've contributed so much both in terms of your legal contributions, but also the broader community contributions, which is some of the work that's being recognized today by this award. So tell us about the award, how it came about, and some of the background about how you identified it. Sure. Well, the Association of Corporate Councils is a global organization consisting of about 40,000 corporate counsel throughout the world. And this is the second year that they've given this award for women global law and leadership. And I'm not quite sure how they heard of me. I think it was through, because some of the speaking that I've done internationally, apparently somehow I came to their attention. And they said that they would like to include me as an awardee this year. And I was very honored to be considered, because it does recognize the good work that we do. All of us are doing here in Hawaii. Right. So corporate counsel means those who are attorneys working for businesses, corporations, is that correct? Right. In-house counsel. In-house counsel. In-house counsel, right? And you were actually working in-house counsel. Yes, I was, from 87 to 1990. I was in-house counsel to a Japan-based corporation, yes. OK, great. And so where was the award given to you? It was at the United Nations. They did it at the United Nations. And there were members, officials from the United Nations that were present. Over 250 people flew in, mainly from the United States, but throughout the world. And it was truly an honor to be able to receive that award. I think we have a picture of the award with Sabrina receiving it with the two other recipients. Can you tell us who these? Actually, to the left is Jennifer Chen. She's the director of the ACC Foundation. And in the middle is Kim Rivera. She is the general counsel to HP. Hawaii, who live in Packard, Inc., a global organization, a very impressive woman. There were so many impressive women there. And I was just really humbled and honored to be included. And there you are. And are you standing at the United Nations? It looks like you're on the— Yes, yes. This is like a lanai, right, exactly. And there's a dining facility inside where the interviews took place, right? Great. I know that what was said in your recognition was not only was the award given for your individual successes, which we've talked a little bit about, but about your work in breaking barriers for other women in diverse groups. So I know that you talked about that in your talk, your speech. Can you tell us a little bit about what you covered? Sure. Well, I talked about my work in terms of the international arena, but also locally and trying to encourage and assist women to achieve positions of leadership. And I've— Can you give me some examples? Sure. Well, just locally, I do try to encourage qualified women to apply for judgeships or to apply for a higher office within the judiciary. I think, just like I was mentored— Who was your mentor? How? You know, the main mentor I had clearly was Judge Bambi Heifel, who encouraged me to apply, who helped me through the application process. When she was appointed to circuit court, I was actually—that's the first judgeship I got was her position at district court, yeah. So she moved up to circuit court. She moved up to circuit and she helped me— Her vacancy— Right. She mentored me. Exactly. And, but you know, throughout the process, you know, there were so many women, judges that helped me throughout the years. And there's too many to mention, but I will mention Judge Marie Milks and Judge— Who was the first? The first woman at the district court, and then she got elevated to circuit court. Do you recall what year that was? You know, I don't know when she got to circuit. Was it like 1980? It was in the 80s. It was in the 80s. 1988, I think. But I think Judge Betty Vitusic was the head of family court. But for many years, when I started practicing law, it was just Judge Vitusic and Judge Marie Milks that were the only judges when I actually started practicing law. That's amazing. Right. And what year was that? I started in 1982. Okay. And you graduated from law school when you were just in 1982. Yes. Okay. Yes. When you're talking about speaking out when necessary, what were you referring to? Well, you know, I think it's really important for women to—sometimes we—and especially Asian women—tend not to be as assertive. And I think when you see an injustice or when you see something that needs to be said, it's important to speak out. You have to pick and choose your battles, of course. But when you see something that should be done or is—I do try to speak out in terms of encouraging, not just women to apply, but calling people on the fact that, hey, we don't have enough women in leadership. We're doing much better. We're doing much better. But you know, especially even in private practice, we still don't have enough women staying on to make partner at law firms. And anyway, I've tried to make it a point to speak out when I think it's appropriate to do so. Right. So not just in terms of career choices, but in terms of life issues, in terms of social issues. Whatever it is, exactly, whatever it is, you know, in terms of making the workplaces more conducive for women to feel welcomed. But also, you know, I actually—one of the things that I think has really struck me recently, and it was covered in the Atlantic, but it's the confidence gap. I think one of the reasons—and there are various reasons. But one of the factors is that we women ourselves don't have the confidence to apply. All the studies show that women will not apply for a position unless they're 100% qualified, whereas men will apply even if they only meet 50% of the minimum qualifications. And so that's one of the things, you know, I'm always telling women, apply for this jug chip. And they're like, oh, I don't think I'm qualified. And I say, you're eminently qualified. You are very qualified. Please let me, you know, help you—I'll be a reference if I can help you, you know? It just shows how important it is for, in this case, other women to support women who may have some hesitation, but to know that they have the backing of other women who have succeeded and who have supported them. Tell me, were you born with this confidence or this ability to speak up, or was it something you developed over? It was definitely something that I acquired over the years. Now I did have a mother who was a very strong woman, and as I was growing up, she told me, you know, you can do anything. And so I—that was really helpful. But still growing up in this world, and in Hawaii—well, I grew up in Japan, you know. Yes, I grew up in Japan and a little bit in the Philippines also. But yeah, you're still a product of this world. And of course, you know, me, I have this added layer of being a member of the LGBT community, and I had to deal with that for so many years. And you're also, ethnically, you're a half Japanese, half Caucasian, right? So I'm sure that was in Japan unusual. Right. It was unusual, so I was kind of like a foreigner in Japan, and in the American context, I'm a foreigner, yeah, I'm different, right? But in that sense, it's good because, you know, you—there's pros and cons to everything, right? So how do you define yourself? Because we have talked in the past about feminism. Yes. Yes, yes, I am a feminist. Yeah, a feminist, I believe, is a person who believes in equal rights and equal justice for all. Exactly. And not just for women. It's for men. You know, when I talk about Title IX and the importance of what Patsy Takimoto-mi did and the importance of Title IX, I also talk about the fact that it helped men, too. Men couldn't get into nursing school. You know, there was a district court bailiff who told me that when he came back from Vietnam, he couldn't get into court reporting school. He wanted to be a court reporter, but he was discriminated against because he was a man. And so— Right. That's wonderful. We didn't get a little bit into some of your background, because among your many accomplishments, you were one of the early beneficiaries of Title IX in Hawaii, right? Yes. Because you received a basketball scholarship to play basketball. I did. I did. I walked on to the team, and you know, from 74 to 78, I was— At your age? I didn't recruit anybody, so I was able to walk on. You know, back then, there was no high school girls' basketball in Hawaii. And so I played for U.S. military schools overseas, and so I was able to—I played, and so therefore made the team and got a scholarship. Great. So let's—we only have a few more seconds before we go to the break. Sure. Can we show a couple more pictures, Ray? This is where the mayor of Okinawa last November, I spoke at a televised symposium, first symposium in Okinawa on LGBT rights, but while there, I also spoke a lot about women's rights. Right, yes. And we can tell the audience how much work you do in the international arena, right? That's part of your—both your legal obligation—not obligations, but your professional interests. Yes. Yes, clearly, yes. And outreach as a justice in Hawaii extending yourself. So let's show one more picture, Ray, and then we'll go to break. This is with Justice Wilson and Dean Raj Kumar of the Jindal Global Law School, where I'm honored in Delhi. And last couple of years, I've been honored to visit that law school to speak a lot on women's rights, LGBT rights. And I know we've also done a lot with India on environmental issues and environmental part. Right, and environmental issues. And I speak at an environmental conference also. Wonderful. Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to take a short break. I'm with my special guest, Justice Sabrina McKenna, and we're talking about making leadership work in Hawaii and about her recent award from the ACC Foundation. So we'll be right back. Thank you. But grandmother, what big eyes you have? She said— What are you doing? Research says reading from birth accelerates our baby's brain development. Push! Push! Read aloud 15 minutes, every child, every parent, every day. Aloha and Richard Concepcion, the host of Hispanic Hawaii. You can watch my show every other Tuesday at 2 p.m. We will bring you entertainment, educational, and also we'll tell you what is happening right here within our community. Think Tech Hawaii. Aloha. Welcome back. This is Carol Montlee with my special guest, Associate Justice Sabrina McKenna. We were talking about not only her recent international award from the ACC Foundation, but also about her many work, much work that she does in the international community and we've already seen some pictures, images of her in India, in Japan. And so I think we have a few more images here that we can show. Okay, now this is a picture of you in— In our courtroom, in the downstairs historical courtroom speaking to a group of Japanese students. I do a lot of speaking to international audiences, especially from Japan because Japanese is my first language. I think this all—the award really started when I became a judge, there would be so many Japanese attorneys that would come to my courtroom. And then when Japan went through this judicial reform, they really wanted lay participation so they came to study different courts, but they ended up focusing on Hawaii. And so I was honored to be invited to Japan many times in national TV to speak about the jury system as well as judicial selection, lay participation. And of course, every chance I got, I also spoke about the fact that why am I the only woman on this panel? Was that the case? You were the only woman? I remember the first national symposium. I was the only woman. I said, where are the Japanese women? And well, I— Are there more now? Yes, I think there are more now. But still I think less than 20 percent of Japanese judges are women. And how about women in law schools? Are they fairly highly represented? I think they have a pretty good representation, but definitely not at our level. You know, our level, the United States is over 50 percent. But that's also title mine, right? Correct. That made all the difference. And it's over 50 percent. But only 27 percent of judges in the United States are women. We're a little bit higher. We're at 37 percent. In Hawaii. In Hawaii. And why do you think that is? I think that there's—okay. The reality is that all the statistics show that merit selection processes are better for diversity. And so many states have elected judges. Those states, it's not as good for women and minorities. So we have the most diverse state judiciary in the United States. That's good. Yes, we do. Right. And so we select our judges by the Judicial Selection Commission, whose members are appointed by the governor, the president of the Senate, the speaker of the House, the chief justice, and two members voted in by the bar, and only four are attorneys. Really? Okay. So that's proven to be, because I know when the Judicial Selection Commission was started, which was, I believe, 1978? Yes. The Judicial Convention? Right. And it actually came into effect, I believe, in 1980. Right. I implemented it in 1980. But it has made a big difference. Right. So over the 37 years, you've seen a change in the judiciary. Oh, exactly. I am a direct beneficiary of the Title IX, as well as the Constitutional Amendment. Okay. Definitely. That's great. Two more slides? A few more slides? And this is a beautiful picture of you centered with beautiful lay on. This was when I received the University of Hawaii Distinguished Alumnus Award back in 2009, when I was still at the Circuit Court, I was truly honored. And that was for your many accomplishments, not up to that point you weren't even on the Supreme Court. Yeah. Yes. And you were, of course, a graduate of the William S. Richardson School of Law, which probably counts among us. I am a proud graduate of Richardson, yes. I am a Richardson lawyer, as we say. Right. Okay. And another image? This was after a keynote speech that I gave at Law Asia in Hong Kong last year. It was a family law forum, because I used to head family court. They asked me to give the keynote in Hong Kong. And so how big a group was that? Hundreds of attorneys from throughout Asia. Okay. So let's talk about, we just focused a little bit on Hawaii and Hawaii's progress in bringing more women judges, at least, to bringing it to our community, which is so important. Are we doing enough, though? What else could we be doing? What else could our community be doing, and what else could we as a country be doing? Yes. As a community, although we've made tremendous progress, recently, you've probably, I don't know if you've noticed, but there really haven't been as many women applicants, especially to the circuit court. And so, you know, Hawaii women lawyers has headed a few panels. I've been, you know, I've spoken on panels when I've been asked, and they even had a meeting with a governor, which I actually attended a couple months ago. The governor does want more women to apply. He would love to appoint more women to the circuit court, but we need more qualified women to apply. Now, I know in the early days, when I first, it was a member of the bar, part of the problem was women didn't quite satisfy the qualifications because they hadn't been in practice the minimum, whether it's five years or 10 years. But that's not the problem anymore. That's not the issue anymore. So I, like I said, I think this goes back to the confidence gap, the confidence gap, right? The women are not applying, even though they're well qualified, they think that they have to have the most stellar qualifications possible, you know, to even consider applying. And so, I think it's incumbent on, and I'm no longer at the trial court, but I think that people that are in the litigation system, it would be really good for people there, attorneys and or judges, or court staff, to encourage promising women to apply for judges. So organizations like Hawaii Women Lawyers, what other organizations would be helpful? Any of the organizations, maybe the trial, the criminal defense bar organizations, the bar association. The bar association, yes. Federal bar association. Right. Exactly. But I think, you know, we're, I think there's been a lot of reach out to different people and how many openings are we talking about? Well we have, I think, I think there's like five circuit court openings right now. First circuit and third circuit. I think we have a family court opening, a district court opening, so it just keeps happening. And for the Supreme Court, there were a total of five justices. How about the appellate court? There are six judges on the Intermediate Court of Appeals and we're doing pretty well on the appellate court. It's, you know, two out of five at the Supreme Court, three out of six on the ICA. But it's really now the trial courts that we need to get more women applying. I know there was a recent article that appeared last week about how women make up a very small percentage of equity partners in law firm. Right. Exactly. Hawaii, you know, although 45% of associates are women, only 26% of partners in Hawaii are women according to the latest HSBA statistics. Right. And of those partners, and maybe we should explain to our audience, the difference between associate and partner and the difference between an equity partner and a partner. Right. Exactly. Equity partner are partners that actually get to share in the profits and not all the partners are equity partners. Right. So that's a big distinction. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. The argument that's been put forth that women often want to have a more balanced life that might include time for whether it's bearing children, raising children, staying at home, working part-time, working out of the home, which might not be as conducive to the amount of work or energy that's required to become, in this case, an equity partner or a justice of a court. Well, I think that, you know, there may be some truth to that, but I think that that should transcend gender. The husbands should be equally involved. They should be just as hard for the men as it is for the women that are parents. And so it needs to be a shared burden. And how have you balanced it? Because I know you're the mother of three wonderful children. Three, three, three. Right. And how many dogs? Two dogs in the family. But I do, you know, the children have another mother, which is, I did get a big laugh when at the ACC interview when they asked, how do you balance it? How do you do this? I said, well, it's really helpful to have another woman helping you raise your children. And what about outside activities? Are you still involved in sports? And not organized sports at this point. And I do try to exercise regularly, you know, on my own, but I'm not involved in organized sports at this point. Yes. Are you still involved in the Eti Bowl? No, just as a cheerleader. Just as I just go to cheer. We should explain to our audience that. That table is the annual Richardson Flag Football Homecoming Game. It's the alumni, the women graduates against the law students, and it's been going on for many, many years. It's a wonderful tradition. It's a great tradition. That brings together, basically, as they say, town and gown, the law school, et al., university versus the graduates who are now judges and government lawyers. You know, it's a way for the women to engage in the kind of sports networking that the men have always engaged in. Whether it's involved. You know, I have hired people that have come to extern me with me through Eti Bowl, that I met through the Eti Bowl activities, and I've had, you know, law clerks that have been Eti Bowl participants. It's a wonderful tradition. Yes. And everybody who has been to the law school who has been associated with women lawyers look forward to it every year. Yes. It's a great event. Well, we're almost at the end of this interview. Okay. So I'd like to look into camera four, and if you have a few words of suggestions or recommendations or thoughts on how we can see more women in leadership, particularly in the judiciary, and, of course, your particular award and how that has encouraged you and maybe helped other women see where the opportunities are. I'm going to paraphrase the definition of leadership from Susan Kaputo who spoke here a couple years ago at the Hawaii Wahine Forum. Basically, she talks about leadership as being a leader of someone who uses what they have themselves. She calls it the greatness in oneself to achieve extraordinary outcomes by engaging in the greatness of others. In other words, a leader of someone, it doesn't have to be a title. It's someone that brings out the greatness and brings out the best in others to achieve goals. So I just want to encourage the women out there to go for it. When I was young, I never envisioned being in this type of position, and it's not just something that happened overnight, but it's been a step-by-step process. I still have my self-doubts as I go through life. Life is a process of introspection and learning. And so don't have the confidence in yourself to go ahead and do the best that you can, bring out the greatness in others to achieve extraordinary goals. So both for yourself, apply for positions, go out there, stretch yourself, go for it, and for women who may feel that they are in a different place, encourage those people so that we can achieve justice for all. Well, on that note, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And that brings us to the end of our show. We've enjoyed bringing to you, making leadership work in Hawaii with my guest associate justice Sabrina McKenna of the Hawaii Supreme Court. We've been talking about recognition for justices and its credit to Hawaii when our judges receive awards of such high caliber. Thanks to our production engineer Ray Sangalong and our floor manager Rob McClane, and all the people who care and contribute to our Think Tech production. If you want to see our show, go to thinktechhawaii.com or youtube.com slash thinktechhawaii, where there will be a link to more shows just like this one. Thank you for watching and we'll see you next time. Aloha.