 there's opportunities for the supply chain to be much more resilient and much more flexible and like these inputs can be stored for months at a time and it's not like this you know once you once an animal is born like there's a timeline that has to be followed right and to go throughout that process and so and and then obviously that the the risk of of zoonotic disease and what you know the risk of future pandemics I think the work that that I'm doing around alternative protein helps reduce that risk and so I I feel more inspired than ever to continue to continue this work and and and think that the pandemic and the the fragility of the food system that it really um uh kind of unveiled um I think have made others see the importance that that that major change needs to be made Emily Hennessy is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 media and innovators magazine based in Washington DC Emily is a policy associate at the Good Food Institute and leverages policy to create a sustainable secure and just food system via alternative proteins in the United States and beyond prior to joining GFI she worked on sustainable food efforts at Georgia Organics as the farm to school director and director of programs previously Emily was the sustainability programs coordinator at Emory University's office of sustainability initiatives she holds a bachelor's degree in cultural anthropology from Emory University and an mph with a concentration in food systems from the Johnson's Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Emily is a member of her neighborhood community garden on the steering committee for the American Public Health Association Center for Climate Health and Equity and a farm foundation young agri-food leader Emily welcome to the show I'm so glad to have you here thanks so much for having me mark it's a pleasure to be here before we started so we saw your spray bottle that you're starting your gardening you was kind of having a discussion about how you're excited about your new seedlings and and I was telling you about my babies and how how happy I am with my progress on on gardening here in my home you have a long history and and education around sustainability climate food farm practices different things with public health and that and you have been in this space for a while now you're with super the good food institute foundation and you're kind of really helping with advocacy around food and also the legal aspects around how we can get into some different changes in the food systems around the world but we've just been through this crazy time this you know pandemic black lives matter a lot of uprest and unease around the world even with inauguration and and crazy things not only with food but just our world and civilization frameworks going on so my question is how have you weathered this crazy time and and as as I began as well you doing a little gardening with some seedlings as I'm sure many Americans and people around the world are kind of baking more cooking more gardening more getting this better view at our food systems but has any of that given you more resilience or what kind of learning lessons have you had out of this time yeah it's the fact that we're into April 2021 and if you know lived through a year plus of of the pandemic is it's it's hard to wrap your mind around in some ways um you know professionally um the the transition to pandemic work life was actually quite smooth um the good food institute everyone except for the policy team is normally remote um we actually opened an office in dc for our policy team in november of 2019 and so you know we're in the office for a few months and then had to go home um but it was a very smooth transition back to to remote work um uh so I feel really lucky in in those regards and I mean I've I've been employed and healthy throughout the last year and so um you know it's it's hard to complain about much when when you have those two things when so many people around the world um uh haven't um and you know I have found gardening to actually be one of the most important aspects of my life over the last year um I think the I've I've been gardening for for quite a while and I've always found the the magic of planting a seed and watching it grow to just be awe inspiring but um to to like work with my hands in a in a time when when most of the world in my interactions with the world or virtual was extremely rewarding um I also as you mentioned a member of my neighborhood community garden and luckily the the city deemed that an essential service so the the garden was able to remain open all of all of last year and so being able to um stay connected to community members from afar and spend lots of time outside and um you know cultivate these things that like nourish my body were was I think a really important part of of my resilience and um during as as kind of winter came I started to you know get itchy for what is what what's you know I want to get my hands back in the soil as quickly as possible so my husband very generously gave me got me a grow light for for Christmas this year so I could start my gardening several months months earlier and um it's been a fun fun exploration over the last couple of months to grow seedlings and I'm about ready to put some of them in the ground and um and again like the I I feel really lucky to live in a fairly tight knit neighborhood that you know has a very active neighborhood listserv and people are very there's like a buy nothing facebook group where people are constantly you know trading and swapping things out and so um you know a neighbor had um some milk weed seeds that she was distributing to neighbors and so I've um and giving my hand at um you know growing milkweed which are which is really important for for for butterflies and um I think again to me like it's there's there's so many connections back to food and how food brings people together um and I I love that food is such a big part of my life both personally and professionally during this pandemic you probably saw as I did in others around the world that food is an essential service and that's the the microscope the systemic problems really bubble to the surface but also the microscope really shown down on food in all different aspects where it's broken how the shelves in the grocery store uh certain shelves were cleared out entirely and then if you walk a few aisles to the fresh produce actually they were pretty good for for a long time in the fresh produce and that also these local gardens these corner gardens which are turned more from flowers and to other kind of cosmetic type of plants to more food you know you could grab an apple off a tree you could grab a plum or an apricot or you wherever you're at in specific regions there's some of those things you could take back and eat from peas the beans etc um that's really nice but also people were then baking more at home uh I personally years ago went through the transition of not just buying my seeds somewhere else and and and then growing and planting them and doing the gardening but where I actually started my own seed banking so based off of my past uh gross then I would take the seeds and and dry them and and store them and get them ready for the next rounds of of my planting um I wanted to plant them all immediately but there's just there's not there's just not enough room to that and it's also doesn't make a lot of sense but there there's a lot of learning lessons that you can get when you not only plant food you garden but during this time we've just seen the the importance of food are there any other learning lessons that you've kind of gotten during this pandemic where you're saying you know this this confirms to me that we have a broken food system or we need some changes or how vital it is that's something that maybe we hadn't been focused in on or that wasn't always in the forefront we were leaving it up to other organizations to deliver our food to us but how much better it is that we get involved and understand how it all actually all works yeah I mean I think what happened with the the meat packing plants in the US was a big slap in the face to a lot of Americans about you know really what what the process of our food system looks like and and where there are some serious pain points um you know it was just horrible images to you know to see the millions of animals that had to be killed and not be eaten at all because of the the kind of the blocks and the issues with the supply chain and and so I think in a lot of ways it it for me like reaffirmed the importance of the work that I'm doing you know that the world of alternative proteins although you know it's still a fairly young industry but we we vision this world that um you know that for instance for like plant-based meat products um the same inputs can be used for plant-based pork versus plant-based chicken versus plant-based beef in a lot of ways and so um there there's opportunities for the supply chain to be much more resilient and much more flexible and like these inputs can be stored for months at a time and it's not like this you know once you once an animal is born like there's a timeline that has to be followed right and um to to go throughout that process and um so and and then obviously that um the the the risk of of zoonotic disease and what you know the risk of future pandemics I think the work that that I'm doing around alternative proteins helps reduce that risk and so um I I I feel more inspired than ever to continue to continue this work and and and think that the pandemic and the the fragility of the food system that it really um uh kind of unveiled um I think has made others see the importance that that major change needs to be made um and I you know I think that we the pandemic has been one crisis but like you know increased natural disasters like they're they're we know that they're going to be continue continued crises um in the future and that we can either take charge and work to make changes or we can um we can continue with the the status quo and I think there's a growing number of individuals and organizations and policymakers and you know funders who who recognize that it's it's it's now or never really when it comes to um taking taking charge and shifting years it's it's not only in the the U.S. it's all around the world and you're in a unique position place in Washington D.C. for the U.S. food system for especially on a federal level to to be positioned there for changes in and the way things occur in the in the food system and and the policies around them because there has always been a big advocacy and lobbyists in the food systems but in almost a negative way almost a monopoly type of a way that is not good for everyone's benefit um in Germany we actually saw the same things with the meat industry so we had Tonus with Tonus as a big meat producer in Germany and huge problems and I think everywhere in the world around mass produced and big industrial scale animal not just agriculture but production where they're actually doing the slaughtering and the cutting of of the meat and things not only are those working conditions not futuristic not ready not worthy of human there's no social distancing there's bad working conditions bad hours low labor not a lot of safety things in there and because they kind of felt this demand there was those things bubbled out to the surface of course the horrific things that occur with animal meat production and consumption in that respect on the production side is horrific enough but the human working conditions and those things are also another almost breeding ground for illness for pandemics for spreading of those because there is not that optimization that social distancing that good working conditions fair wage fair trade so to say in in in that industry even in Germany which is highly developed in that and there was recalls shells were empty for meats and meat counters were empty for a long time there's all sorts of crazy issues going around that and and really that's as consumers as public that's what we see but and I probably want to get your feelings your understanding of this the entire food industry has really been stuck in the industrial age and sometimes I joke and tease in the dark ages a lot of respects on human working conditions and production methods that are not just efficient but are humane and right and better systems for this water energy food nexus on how do we use those those finite resources in a proper way that don't go to ways that that do it right and that's that's why I like your discussing alternative proteins better way more sustainable ways of making food but we actually also need to fix that system because there are some practices and they're going on for a long time that are creating huge issues with human suffering and our global grand challenges yeah absolutely I um I grew up in Iowa and um the which you know is in the center of the U.S. I think they're more pigs in Iowa than there are people um I grew up in the in the city but I think it was when I was in high school there was a a raid on a meat packing plant because there were um like an ice raid there were um employees who weren't who weren't legal immigrants and they you know deported a whole bunch of people immediately there were some really horrible stories of like both parents who who who were detained and their kids came home and you know their their parents were nowhere to be found but after um after they they had this raid they tried to find employees you know to fill these slots and none of the local people wanted to work in the meat packing plant because it was such you know miserable work you know it um it's it's so difficult and um you know the pay isn't very good and um literally back breaking and so if I I might have the story not completely correct it's been a while but my understanding was that the company went to American Samoa um because um because of the work requirements you know it was easy to get American Samoans approval to to to work in the U.S. and advertised you know come to the U.S. we'll pay for your you know first month's rent or whatever your transportation you'll have a great job and so this group of American Samoans moved to Iowa to work at these meat packing plants and I I think most of them quit after a short period of time because again it's just such um um unethical work in a lot of ways it's um so yeah you're totally right I think there are there are issues throughout our food system um in terms of the environment and and people and and animals um but I feel very optimistic that there are also plenty of of solutions and lots of smart people in the world who um feel like they want to make make changes to make this this better for everybody there's there's definitely so many more things we could go in we don't want to it be too dystopian or too negative um you know there's a ton of racism you mentioned America Samoa so that's not not just in and and um Samoans and Tongans but there's Asians and people of color and immigrants and Hispanics and on and on that uh get pulled into these lines of work because nobody else wants to do it and it's something that it's been going on for a long time and people haven't been talking about it because it's it's really big history that some of us didn't learn and in school or we don't understand the connections that a lot of our big history is tied to food whether it's Native Americans and and the big food and sorbities and injustices that uh occurred to Native Americans or whether it's in India with Gandhi and and the the salt marches which was all based around food and and race and and uh unifying countries in this old colonialism and time and time there's always these these issues that pop up and they're starting to bubble to the surface the the thing that's really kind of enlightening for me is that for for many decades we've had almost a disconnect with uh human beings and our food we've kind of left that up to 10 or 20 big major corporations to produce all our food for us and as long as they deliver it to the shelves and it makes it on our plate we just and that's cheap then then that's okay uh with that in mind um in 2008 the entire world uh kind of shifted from financial markets tech markets and the economy shifted to anything to do with the food systems and it turned food into a commodity and when that occurred when food became a commodity in 2008 and anything you invested in anything with the food systems it actually cheapened food so the people who were behind the production of food uh were were only cared about what their profit margin was is how they got their return and and so they were trying to produce it as cheap as possible the worst ingredients and the labor and everything just to get it as cheap and get it out there so that they could get that return and that's a market that has grown uh even during the pandemic time over time since 2008 till today it's one that's grown at least a billion uh trillion sorry a trillion a year at the very least a 99 billion uh in in europe alone it's a huge market and um so that's why it's continued to thrive but what we did is by turning food into a commodity we've actually cheapened food which in turn cheapens life and how we look at that food and that we've got this disconnect and now there's this big awareness and it's been moving more and more this is what i really want to get into you with you today you with the good food institute are part of the united nation's uh food system summit for which is all about global food reform and proving food sovereignty food security hunger poverty and and fixing the broken food system on all levels there's six action tracks there's um food system dialogues there's food champions and food heroes there's CEOs of organizations around food now coming to the table it was supposed to occur in 2020 and they've moved it because of the pandemic 2021 and they're gonna have the first launch in um i think it is in June and Rome if i remember correctly and then later in September and in New York you guys have been doing work for a long time for years on food and plant-based alternatives and now really alternative proteins you've been moving in this direction regardless tell me how that journey has been and now that you're involved in the un food system summit why how where's that going what's your excitement what have what learning lessons have you seen along the way yeah so the the good food institute is just over five five years old and it started just in the us but now we have about 65 employees in the us and actually affiliate offices um in five different regions of the world so we have a team in brazil and a team in israel a team in europe a team in india and a team in the the asia pacific region kind of based mostly in singapore um so it's there's been really exponential growth in in the past five years and the um the idea behind starting the good food institute was if you really think about you know there have been environmental organizations and animal welfare organizations that for decades have been urging people to you know switch to vegetarian diets or to reduce meat consumption and in a lot of ways that really hasn't worked you know meat consumption globally is at an all time high and all of the projections are that that's just going to continue to grow and so instead of we're not in the business of telling people what they should or shouldn't eat we want to help accelerate these industries that that give people the the meat and seafood and eggs and dairy that they love um but in a way that doesn't have the the externalities of our current industrial system um and i've been at the the good food institute for for about a year and a half now um and i mean it's it's been really exciting to see the growth just in the past the past year and a half but um even more exciting to think about you know what how what this industry looked like five years ago and and where we are today um there's tons of work to still be done especially around price we know that price needs to decrease in order for um everyone to have access to alternative proteins we know that like a lot of um there's some great like chicken nugget type products and and ground beef products on the market for plant-based but you know there's no there's no great plant-based salmon filet on the market there's no you know plant-based pork shoulder um that that's readily available we want to um we're gonna keep working until all of the animal products that that people want to eat there are alternatives to that and that's obviously the world of plant-based and then this different world of cultivated um proteins is is also rapidly rapidly growing and um this is you know growing meat directly from animal cells um some people call it cultured or cell-cultured meat we use the term cultivated um and just last year Singapore became the first nation to approve cultivated meat for sale so there's one restaurant right now in Singapore where you can buy a cultivated chicken product and we expect other countries to probably you know to follow suit soon um so all of that being said it was extremely exciting when we were invited to to participate in the UN food systems summit we're serving the role as animation lead for action track two which is all around sustainable diets and consumption um that being said you know there's no guarantee that alternative proteins will will be you know kind of a final menu of solution you know on the final menu of solutions filled for the food system summit we obviously hope that's part of the conversation but um but that that's not guaranteed um but it's been a it's been a really exciting process um eat is the group that's facilitating this action track and so it's been an exciting opportunity to get to collaborate with them and um I've been really impressed with especially the role of um or the summit's emphasis on youth involvement in this process so each action track has a youth vice chair and um there are youth embedded throughout each action tracks um and it's it's my first time working on a project kind of at this international um level at the at the UN level so it's been a uh a big learning experience just in terms of uh all of the the the opinions and the issues that have to be weighed you know everything from um what UN member states their their thoughts on the process and um civil society and um the kind of the actually the core group of of team members um and it's it's a big process you know even within the sustainable diets and consumption action track we're talking about everything from breastfeeding to to how to reduce food waste around the world and that's just one action action track and they're you know as you said they're they're multiple action tracks so um I think the it's also I think really important that although the kind of the summit is divided into these different sections we know that food systems don't live in silos right like all of these things are are interconnected and so a lot of the work that's being done right now is to really figure out how to make sure that the the ideas and the solutions are really synergistic across across action tracks that all of the voices that want to provide input are have a have an avenue for for providing that input um and they're you know the the UN is really stressing that they want this to be a people's summit that they want the entire world to be able to to participate um and that's a you know that's a big task when you think about the the the food systems priorities and and cultural preferences and languages um so it's uh there's there's a a lot of work ahead of us but the fact that the UN has decided to host a food system summit um for the first time is um is extremely exciting and I think are a really good sign and I think that my hope is that there are going to be some really nice synergies related to the the summit and then also the climate conference and in Scotland later this year and that kind of we can continue to look towards the both the sustainable development goals but also the Paris Agreement um and and make sure that we're we're we're working towards those those goals collectively. I really love that you you know the sustainable development goals and the Paris Agreement that you that you brought those in um this all 17 of the sustainable development goals are tied to food um 11 of them intrinsically but all 17 of them all touch on on food food industry and a facet or facets of the food complex food systems so they are very complex. You uh initially mentioned EAT for my listeners who aren't familiar with EAT it's the EAT form EAT Foundation, Gunn Hill Stordon, Johan Rockstrom, um many other greats who kind of started that organization out of Stockholm Sweden and uh you're in good hands with them and and David Navarro has also become recently become a part of the the EAT and he does the food systems dialogues as well and created the framework um not only of the five action tracks but the framework of those food system dialogues and so it's it's really uh interesting and vital. There was also uh I did I feel that same type of it's not a frustration but this international organizations like the United Nations and there's even the world they signed in 2019 a partnership with the World Economic Forum so there's some intertwinings of the World Economic Forum and and it's really this big uh monster beast I guess it's very hard to understand all the different interagencies and organizations um the in in June is the the FAO's part in Italy in Rome on the food system some are kind of a pre-summit and even with the cops they do a pre-cop and it's usually in Bonn where the UN asked triple C sets uh at that meeting in 2000 I think it was 2018 yeah I'm pretty sure it was 2018 I did a food a little food event with impossible foods with insect protein I can't can't think of the name of the that organization the EAT formed with Brent Locken was with EAT at that time now he's moved on to WWF and does their food section there um and just many other grades and I it is a very complex thing to do anything food around food at an international organization I'll just give you a little teaser and insight of what what occurred before we like I kid you not not even 30 minutes before getting ready to launch this event at the at the UN in Bonn it's kind of the pre-cop that they did um the director and the partnership uh Claire Bell Peugeot comes over and says okay we've got to be extremely careful we're talking about the Eat Lancet report that they did of food and the Anthropocene says we've just had uh chili we just had um Brazil we just had uh two other countries that are big on animal agriculture especially beef and and things call and say this better not be about vegan plant-based going to these different diets no meat and things and and basically we just came out and says we're just presenting the science we're just it's all about the fax base presenting the science behind the reports and talking about new rules for the toolbox and I loved how you mentioned you know it's not about really telling people what they can and can't eat or what they should eat what's more about that learning and that understanding and that transition where they take a transitional alternative protein to transition over to a new diet or to something else but it's almost an empowerment of knowledge that they maybe not didn't have before that they make that decision on their own how they want to eat and and move on because there's a model and and that this goes all back to the very first question I ask you there's some very basic regenerative models for life that will get you through a very long sustainable life to have beautiful futures but if you don't live them if you don't apply them if you don't understand that they exist then you sort of start to run into health problems you start to run into environmental problems in your community on how you live and and and you know is that's a model that you can continue to sustain over decades just as a mother a family a father you know in your own life and as you get those awareness which I think the Good Food Institute has really done for me and for those colleagues that I know over the years just the awareness and and the support and the help for different ways of producing different ways of looking at it what what are the alternatives and some of them might not be good some but many of them might turn out to be good but it's a process of discovery along the way and then you guys usually hold on to those ones that are really have substance and meaning and depth and their organizations that not only just focus on what some would call the future of food but also take that deep dive into is that a sustainable business model does that harm our finite resources does that have the production methods that puts good good products into our food you know that long term and offer those viable options so I love the work that you guys have done in the past and now I'm so excited for you guys going into the UN food system summit really you are focusing now or you were telling me you're very excited about what you're seeing in the movement of youth and the direction of youth I would like to know most of the youth that I know are already vegan or kind of going in this very health conscious direction alongside of being an advocate or activist with Fridays for Future or something what type of youth things are getting you excited now what are you seeing and and reaching this new audience this new generation that's coming up saying man boy the food systems broke from our elders from our parents yeah I mean I think there's a huge amount of enthusiasm for from youth for obviously climate issues more broadly but then also food systems issues specifically just in the past couple of months I've gotten dozens of emails from from students and you know a massive amount of applications for like a summer fellowship that I'm that I'm facilitating and it just seems like there's this real drive and growing interest from students and other youth who who want to to take a role in in making our world a better place through food and you know I I've heard for instance that like the Biden administration is is really wants to prioritize um the youth voices as as part of of the climate climate solutions coming from the U.S. um I you know we'll we'll see if that if that happens um I I think it's important that um when we do engage youth we do it in a really like authentic and meaningful way and um but I think the great thing about this this world is that you know we need we need activists who who want to be on the street and you know who are grassroots organizers but we also need like biochemists and biochemists and and bioengineers and um people who want to be lobbyists to lobby for for you know good aspects of our food system and um we need we need lawyers and um so it I think that I think that there are just like so many entry points into this work and that regardless of what your skill set is whether that's coding or public speaking like both of those are really important and um I you know the Good Food Institute has a one of our my favorite programs is called the alt protein project and so we help create student groups at universities around the world and help provide students opportunities to learn more about potential career paths in the alternative protein world but also those students work with professors and and nudge professors and inspire professors to start doing research in this space because there's a you know a huge amount of research that still needs to be done in order to bring bring prices down to scale these industries so again it it's it's just really inspiring to me that there's growing interest from young people and that there are also I think just an endless amount of opportunities for for young people to engage in this work and it's interesting before this conversation I was kind of reflecting back on on my path and like what brought me here and I I've always loved food I loved cooking and and kind of fell into a sustainable food career in some ways through a a really wonderful class in college called fast food slow food and it was all about industrial agriculture and and you know various more sustainable alternatives to that and at the time so much of the conversation this was in like 2006 or so was about food miles and you know how far our food travels to get to us and you know and and farmers markets and and you know supporting your local and regional food system which is obviously still extremely important but the conversation has really shifted over the last 10 or 15 years in term especially in terms of how we think about climate and food and that um you know I want to continue to support my my local and regional food system but that the the the talk about you know what we're producing and in what we're consuming from a climate perspective actually has a much bigger impact than than how far things are traveling and so it's I'm curious to see if you have that conversation we'll we'll change over the the the next 10 or 15 years um but but think that there's a place for you throughout all of that I totally agree do you around alternative proteins do you you see it as a trend or do you see it as a a stable pillar in in the food systems I I personally um in the EU and I'm in Germany but in the EU the the different ways to speak about cellular agriculture they don't use the word cultivated meat they use kind of an in vitro meat term it translated to me it sounds you know like you're growing some kind of a baby in in vitro fertilization and I'm like oh that doesn't ponder the the most beautiful images yeah but some of the wisdoms around the laws and the policies are there are are kind of they're almost scary for some businesses for for people on point of entry but really when you look at the production or the way it goes in that there's not a trend it's not a niche it's actually just a better way of production of producing overall I'm wondering what you're seeing if that's a trend or what you're seeing moving forward in this area and how quickly is that path um to get there I mean do you see it taking us a long time 10 20 years or do you see it happening much faster now that Singapore's already came online last year with the chicken nugget yeah so um just on the kind of in vitro or lab grown term the the reason why we don't use that in addition to it being like not very appealing um is that you know if you think about any food product that that's being manufactured right now it was typically like initiated the the initial like r&d was done in a laboratory right and now it's done in a in a manufacturing facility in a production facility and that's the same thing for cultivated meat there are um a lot of the startups are still on the kind of bench bench scale um research level but as the production scales it's no longer going to be in the laboratory so you know we don't call them lab grown Skittles or lab grown Doritos um we just call them Doritos so uh uh we that's why we we don't use that terminology and um you know there are a variety of of um kind of market projections that have been done by by by different um industry groups about the growth of alternative proteins and they they vary quite significantly we don't necessarily subscribe to to one of those versus the other um but I I do think this is here to say I don't think it's a fad um I think that the the rate of growth and kind of market penetration a lot of that's going to depend on um the level of investment from the private sector but even more so from the public sector um I we think that that public publicly funded research and development where the results of that are open access and and any entrepreneur or scientist can have have the results of that is really what's needed to to accelerate the growth um and um so we're we're urging the US government to invest in alternative protein r&d and we've seen other countries around the world invest in this um and so I think a lot of the the growth is going to depend on that level of investment obviously consumer demand is going to to drive this as well but I'm confident that um if companies continue to produce products that are just as delicious as their animal counterparts and that if prices can continue to um if prices can start to come down and you know be competitive with um industrial animal products then then things are really here to stay and we um CE Delft which is a life cycle assessment firm um in Europe they recently wrapped up a life cycle analysis of modeling cultivated meat production in a facility in in 2030 um and um they projected that at that point cultivated there's it's potential there's there's a potential for cultivated meat to be cost competitive um with some forms of of animal meat um there you know and the if anyone's an lca um a geek and really wants to read the details of that all of all of that's on our on our website but I I think the um you know we talk about taste price and convenience and that's what that's why could how consumers make food decisions and um the the growth of the of these industries is going to rely on things being just as tasty just as affordable and just as convenient as as their animal counterparts um I think another sign that this is this is here to stay is that we're seeing a lot of big food companies invest in um alternative either investing in kind of cultivated meat companies themselves or creating plant-based lines um as as a part of their their their product line and I I think a lot of that's because that you know they know it's good business and um that there's growing consumer demand um but you know we're still at just about one percent of the retail meat market in the U.S. for plant-based meat so there's tons of buzz about it but it's there's still lots of room for for growth um and um and and market penetration you know the market's huge and untapped I have a couple things here where is it I wanted to show you um it's Bill Gates new book he actually said something really nice about cellular agriculture what do you feel about that I don't even know if that no I don't have this book here yeah so um you know in the climate world there's a call for electrify everything right we want electric vehicles we want um that that if we can produce our electricity via renewable sources that like that's a big part of the solution and um Bill Gates is talks about how uh cultivated meat is an opportunity to basically electrify our meat production that the bulk of the climate impact of cultivated meat production will be in the actual production facility um and if that facility can be powered with renewable energy um the the carbon footprint of this production is it's really minimal um so it's it's it's great that folks like Bill Gates are are calling out the the climate opportunities here his group breakthrough energy um also released recently released a federal policy playbook for what the U.S. government should be doing to fight the climate crisis and one one aspect of that was is to for the federal government to invest in alternative protein research and to also provide incentives for the the private sector to to to scale up so um it's it's great that we've got Bill Gates as an ally yeah I think there's there lots and minuses that anybody could see out of that but it wasn't and I always got an advanced copy of his book and and then also heard his quotes and things around so I thought that was a fabulous in Germany the and it's also throughout the EU but it's mainly focused in Germany there's a a traditional family company called Regenwalde Mülle Mülle and they do sausages and sliced deli meats and things like that and different meat products they made the switch in 2000 slowly in 2013 2013 and then really hard in 2015 and then doubled down in 2018 said you know we're going to go 100 vegan plant-based products and they was actually even in 2015 they said our plant-based products have overtaken our meat-based products they're going like wildfires and we can't keep them on the shelf enough and what they realized is that it was just a better they could use their old machinery with the new products of plant-based meats and so they were actually there was not a bigger cost involved they were able to reduce their cost of good sold sell the product at the same price as the meat product and so they actually were making a profit and that was before they even thought about sustainable production methods now and I think it was already in 2018 they said okay you know we want to take and start using renewable energy and non-finite resources in different ways in our production methods sustainable supply chain and sourcing and things to make sure that that is a really they realized again a better business model reduces the cogs where it can be market competitive but it's just a better long-term sustainable model and I'm seeing that not just with with that example here in Germany but all around the world that those who are getting into alternate proteins are really watching where does our energy come from and how where do our sustainable supply chains and the medium input that we put into our cellular agriculture or precision our precision fermentation and that where are those inputs are they sustainable what's the supply chain on them are they short they local can we do them in a closed system ourselves and they're realizing so it's not just an add-on of a new trend or a niche as an alternate protein or precision fermentation or whatever you call it or for new ice creams that are non-dairy things like that that now you just say okay that's just an add-on to the old system as is no it's an higher new operating model new machinery new methods new energies and it's really based on that that water energy food nexus on where how that fits together which is a system of itself and so I'm loving to see those type of models another thing that we've seen during the pandemic is this huge spike in alternate milks or different plant-based milk products so to say or precision fermentation milk products coming on to the market now that the dairy industry or the meat industry is coming back say you can't call it meat which is one thing that was one but the dairy industry for some reason still held on that you can't call it meat or milk has to be called something else and so I want would like to get to know here your feelings or what you've seen and those not friends those markets or those movements in the industry in those respects and what is that that that pushback or that fight from those industries telling us that we're on the right path or or or how should we look at that and how do we understand that even just from a consumer base on that the big confusion that we're seeing yeah so we've been involved in some some of the legislation in the U.S. at the at the state level primarily with states trying to ban the use of meat or dairy terms on on labels and and in these cases you know there there are claims of consumer confusion but no evidence that consumers are confused you know there we're we're not hearing reports that the consumers are calling up a state office and saying I bought beyond meat then I thought I was getting ground beef you know I I want to process a claim or you know make a complaint about this so I do think most of it is is there it's a protectionist attempt from the incumbent industry and in the U.S. we use first amendment arguments that that these companies have the freedom of speech to label their products in a in a clear way as long as they're not confusing to consumers then they have the right to label them and there are also already federal laws that that that mandate labeling requirements and all of these labels fit within within those requirements so I do think you're I I think you have a good point that you know if if this industry wasn't a threat to the conventional you know dairy or cattle industry we probably wouldn't be seeing these laws so it I think it is a a sign that these these industries are growing I you know plant-based milk especially now it has something like 14 percent of the market share in the U.S. and that's grown over the past couple of decades and in particular for for a lot of reasons some of that is lactose intolerance it's environmental reasons it's health reasons and so I I think that there is a concern from the industrial meat industry that will see similar trends with plant-based meats over the next couple of decades and that they want to kind of do whatever they can to to limit that and in general we we haven't seen much success with those bills the the governor of Virginia last year actually the only bill that he vetoed the entire legislative session was a milk labeling bill and so that that did not pass in Virginia and you know I I totally understand that especially the dairy industry in the U.S. is is really struggling and lawmakers want to you know to to show that they're they're doing something to try to help their constituents I I don't think that this is the most effective way if they truly want to help those industries to to to make a real change it's it's more kind of a messaging a messaging point in my opinion and we've seen some bills also at the federal level but nothing has has gained any traction so we're confident that the kind of the existing regulatory framework for for labeling products is is consistent and that you can use modifiers you know just like you know people know that goat milk comes from a goat not from a cow just like people know that soy milk comes from soybeans not from not from the cow so we but we do work to to to fight any of those we call them label censorship bills if they if they come our way but would obviously rather spend our time using our policy energy and in other ways and one one example of that that all that I'll mention is in California we worked with an assembly member to introduce a bill that would incentivize farmers to transition from animal production or animal feed production into producing crops that could be used as plant-based inputs and to provide financial incentives and technical assistance so I think sometimes in the agriculture community there's a sense that alternative proteins means an end to like rural rural livelihoods and farming communities and that that that's not the case you know especially with plant-based meat that inputs are plants and they need to be grown by people and we we want farmers to to be stewards of the land and to to produce these crops that that are going to be in demand for plant-based products and most plant-based products right now are using what's readily available so you know soy and and wheat and to a certain extent peas but there are there are hundreds of other plants out there that could potentially be used as protein sources for plant-based meat and so that some of the research that we we're seeing happening and we think that there needs to be more of like what are the other crops that are probably higher value and may you know make farmers more money that can be nutritious protein sources that can be used as as inputs so I I definitely think there's there's a very crucial role of the farmer in these in these supply chains I definitely agree I also see that there's not only in cellular agriculture but in precision fermentation there are some old dairy farms some old beef farms or animal agriculture farms out there that very well have a bio reactor or or you know precision fermentation in a lot of respects is very similar to yogurt cultivation and making milk processes or ruling beer processes where in some respects some of those tools could be set up right at the farmer and also kind of do that farm to fork or the very regional local things where they're getting the cells from those same bovine or the same animals on the farm if they're good quality meat and and just changing that processor that old industry into one that's a little bit more sustainable more long term more in mind with the farmer because over the years I don't think there's even in the animal agriculture there's too many that are saying boy this is just the biggest profit margins in the best industry they're always like we've all got to do it cheaper cheaper cheaper and we've got somewhere you've got to cut the corners and you've got to not pay somebody or make some reductions it's just a model that can't go on forever if they can find a way to keep it going on while we move to some better alternatives great more power to them but I think we really need to realize that we're not going to lose the jobs there are going to be some alternatives in many different areas to to still do that locally and that's the the objective is to to change the systems as well along that same lines I want to kind of ask your thoughts or opinions on do you feel that the industry currently is up to speed and the way they produce the way that they look at producing food that's healthy for humans but also healthy for our planet and environment and how how does this alternate proteins really tie in to the climate crisis why is that another tool or is it another tool to fight the climate crisis so you know all the the founders of various alternative protein companies you know all have different reasons for for starting their their companies I think for some of you know for some of them it may be animal welfare for some it may be sustained environmental sustainability for some it may be just a you know a strong fascination with the power of this amazing technology that's emerging but I absolutely think that alternative proteins are an important part of solving the the climate crisis you know I think the science is pretty well understood in terms of if our food system doesn't change we we can't meet the goals of the the Paris Agreement we can't keep warming below 1.5 degrees and that alternative proteins offer a way to produce like I said the products that people love but with significant with significant less impact on on the environment and the studies that have been done thus far around plant-based meat you know some of them show that it's in the like 90 percent less greenhouse gas emissions are used for producing these products than their their conventional animal counterparts and that's that's significant you know you think about a place like Burger King that now has the impossible whopper if if if someone is eating at Burger King a couple times a week and once a week they choose the impossible whopper as a post of the normal whopper over a period of time that and you think about that you know scaled nationally or globally that has a really significant impact and we're we're still in the beginning stages of of these industries so as more products come on the market there there's a broader diversity that consumers can choose from you know products improve and in taste and in price it's just going to continue to grow and I think that there's also a really strong argument in terms of land use and and reducing or the amount of deforestation and protection of of biodiversity you know a significant portion of land in our world is used to to raise animals for food and then also to raise the crops to to feed those animals and that if we can just raise the crops and produce those directly into plant-based meat we're taking a big chunk of that land out of the equation and as as we're hearing on a regular basis like deforestation is a major cause of climate change it's continuing at really rapid rates and I think that the growth of alternative proteins is one way to to slow that down and the the the excess land that is freed up in this in this scenario can be used for you know carbon capture and or for you know producing renewable energy or even for for doing well-managed regenerative agriculture so I I think that this is is an important part of the conversation you know as as you know food is often left out of the conversation in general when it comes to climate you know many places don't track their their scope three emissions I but I think that's that is starting to change you know with things like the UN Food Systems Summit and you know the fact that you you spoke at the pre-cop about about food issues and and so I think that alternative proteins need to need to be part of the conversation when we talk about fighting the climate crisis through the lens of lens of food and I will also add you know we often don't talk about seafood but the alternative seafood is also is also an industry and plant-based seafood in general is is definitely behind the plant-based meat and dairy world but we have a sustainable seafood initiative at GFI that's specifically working to to to grow the sustainable seafood world and I think that there we're going to see continued and more conversations around the connections between seafood and and climate I think there was a study that came out a couple of weeks ago that showed that ocean trawling may release as much carbon as air travel which is just baffling and and really horrifying and so alternative seafood both plant-based and cultivated seafood is a is another opportunity to both protect ocean biodiversity and support ocean conservation which is obviously you know one of the sustainable development goals while also helping to fight the climate crisis yeah that's a it's a huge area it's actually bigger than meat to see food as a big big aspect of food source for our world and affects so so many people I really am hopeful you know I know some salmon different salmon alternatives that are being worked on there was and I can't remember the name of them but I know you guys work with them Bruce Friedrich and that were in the salmon company was in a book on a podcast I did for Ginny Lieman who wrote sex robots and vegan meat and she she talked to the the salmon guys there in California and really there's some great things coming down the line and it would be a big need for that as well just for me so it's such a fabulously exciting area not not so I kind of it's not only alternative proteins it's precision fermentation it's these different options to do food it doesn't always have to be sustainable but in a sustainable way differently providing the same types of products that probably in most respects are better for health and for the environment and really reduce a lot of human suffering and and these impacts on the the seafood industry as you mentioned with with the trolling and that is is multifaceted in and of itself for all the impacts that they have around not just shipping emissions but on bycatch on trolling on illegal fishing it's it's actually 10 times minimum worse than the airline air travel industry so and I have the charts and the data to prove what I showed in a lot of my presentations and talks but for some of us mainly in the western world we're just not aware of of what's going on in the waters because we're not on a boat on a ship a lot of the time and so it's out of sight out of mind I really have only three more no four more major questions for you but there's only one more that's going to be the hard one for you I don't think I've given you a hard one so far and and it's really the the burning question WTF and it's not the swear word although I'm sure many of us and maybe even you have said that this past 12 months or more that was in dealing with the pandemic but it's the burning question what's the future and I'd like to know from your viewpoint and also from Good Food Institute you know do we have hope is there good vision what's the future yeah I mean I think the the reason why I love this work is because it's solutions oriented and so I absolutely have have hope for the future I I don't have kids right now but I want to have kids someday and I wouldn't want to bring a child into the world unless I had hope that they have the potential to to live a happy and fruitful and safe and productive life I I think that I think it's going to be a bumpy road I don't think it's going to be easy but I think this last year has has taught the world that we we have some some major issues that we need to to work together to to to achieve a better future and a part of a big part of that is a better future of food so you know I I envision a future where our food supply is is safe and resilient and it's it's not leading to antibiotic resistance it's not leading to things like deforestation and cutting down the rainforest that we can actually use food as as part of the solution and it's not a leading driver of of the problem and you know we often when I think of the future I think the word the the year 2050 is the year that comes comes to mind which in a lot of ways feels feels very far off but I know it's going to be here but before then before we know it and it's there's the potential for for things to go in a lot of different directions but I think kind of I think politically across the world where we're headed in a fairly good direction I think that there's a growing understanding and kind of this growing consciousness that we we need to make shifts and that there are more and more opportunities for for individuals as well as for organizations to to take part in in this work on a on a daily basis so I I absolutely feel optimistic and feel extremely lucky that I get to be part of that solution both in my personal life and in my professional life. That's beautiful thank you for sharing that and you tell us is there anything that you're really excited about or new things that we should be watching for from the Good Food Institute that are on the horizon besides the UN food system some of some things that you guys are working on and maybe a little teasers of what what we can expect they're looking for from you guys in the future. Yeah we're we're definitely ramping up our work on climate change it feels really great at the federal level that this is something we can really actively talk about and push hard so everything from you know thinking about how to include alternative proteins as a part of President Biden's climate strategy to you know thinking about how alternative proteins could be part of you know international climate negotiations with with other countries so I think there's some exciting stuff on the horizon around that we're we're also doing some exciting work around exploring the you know the the labor impacts of the growth of alternative proteins based on different market projections in the future so kind of getting to some of the conversation we had earlier you know what do we expect to see around around labor changes and what can we do proactively to make sure that as alternative proteins grow that these transitions can be as equitable and just as as possible and we're you know we want to continue to to I think bring fermentation as you mentioned more to the forefront around alternative proteins you know we tended to talk mostly about cultivated and plant-based meat but precision fermentation is a really exciting pillar of alternative proteins and I expect over the next couple of years we're going to stop talking about alternative proteins and kind of these separate categories and it's going to be more of a spectrum especially as cultivated products come to the market so you know we may it wouldn't surprise me if before you see a cultivated beef burger in the U.S. for instance we see a plant-based burger that has cultivated fat as part of it and kind of the blending of of these technologies across product lines I think is going to really open a whole new whole new world for what we think about and what the consumer experiences for alternative proteins. When Joe Biden and Camilla Harris got into office, not only was I ecstatic but I was really excited that they went in and Joe that President Biden went in immediately doubled down on the Paris Agreement got the U.S. back in the Paris Agreement and did a lot of things for electric mobility and moving forward to just kind of to fix some issues one thing that I was surprised and you know I don't know if that happened is that we saw not only when Al Gore was trying went from vice president to try to be president and there was the dimple chat to now with what happened with Trump and Biden that there's a huge issue in politics and in the voting and issues that happen in that transition that that wouldn't be something that he would have immediately jumped on says we need to fix our voting system or something's wrong with with how that process works and we can't have this happen in another four years or whenever that occurs that kind of being the caveat of an example of what happens when you let a bad system or something that's broken already go on for too long and don't fix and repair it in that respects for food and food policy and I even think that Trump and others have allowed some bad policies or are bad lobbyists to come in and really manipulate the food system or policies out there what are some things now that you're doing now maybe in the forefront to think hey we didn't need to make sure that we paved the way or get the right policies in place or make sure that these bad policies are out of there so that that we don't run into the problem in the future when the next crazy person comes or you know whatever that we're really fix the food system and this kind of ties into the UN food system summit but for the US specifically are you thinking and in those terms at all what are some of the long term safety measures you're you're addressing or thinking about yeah I mean for me personally I think one of the biggest challenges we face is that the way the the food and food policy system is set up is that it leads us to not paying the true cost of food and that's for you know true cost in terms of environmental impacts and social impacts and what it truly takes for for farmers and producers to to grow and raise that food so I think there are some really major shifts that need to be that that need to be made and in order to shift that while also making sure that food is affordable and at a price point that that everyone can afford healthy food particularly kind of organizationally what we're really focused on is is the fact that for for for so long agricultural research has been has been lifting up and supporting and these these incumbent industries and that there isn't public research funding that is dedicated to alternatives like alternative proteins and that it's really it's it's it's not a fair competition right now you know obviously these industries are new but that we they also need support via the federal dollars in order to to make this growth happen and you know you think back to some of the the biggest technological revolutions in our food system over the last decade and a lot of those in our food system but also outside of our food system you know things like the the internet and and touchscreen phones all of those originated from public research and so we are are really doubling down to try to secure public research funding for alternative proteins so that we can we can accelerate to the this transition as as quickly as possible that's great that's great to hear if there was a sustainable takeaway message that you could depart to my listeners that had the power to impact or power their lives your message that one message what would it be so I I think the term sustainable means means a lot of different things and part of it ties into this resiliency and making sure that your your own life you're you're living in a in a sustainable way so that you can sustain yourself to continue fighting the good fight whatever that is that is for you so I think one would be to to really make sure that you're you're listening to yourself and that you're you're you're giving your your body and your mind and your soul the the nourishment it needs and and then the second one on the kind of more professional lane is to to to make your voice heard about about what you want in our in our food system and I I used to be I think a little bit intimidated by my ability to participate in our political system, but now don't shy away from the from calling my representatives and and and making that voice heard and also making your voice heard in in terms of where you buy your food if if if you want to see a product on your grocery market shelf and it's not there like talk to someone about it if if if there's a product there and it's not your favorite and you you think it needs some improvement like shoot the company a tweet or send them a message and and let them know that feedback. I think that we often underestimate the power of our of our voices and would encourage your listeners to to really take hold of that power what should young innovators in your field be thinking about the look are looking for ways to make a real impact. So I would encourage folks to go to our website we have a list of all of the alternative approaching companies list jobs and would encourage people to take a look at kind of the range of jobs that are currently available and these industries and see if you you have a skill set that that fits with those if you're still in the process of of your schooling and are trying to figure out kind of what your path is I think that's also a really great way to to feel out what our potential future career opportunities going to look like because as we talked about this this is only going to continue to grow and and we need smart passionate young folks to to to make this growth possible. Last question I have for you is really what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start. I have, I think I've done a really great job of kind of following my, my passion. And obviously, I think that comes from a place of privilege to be able to do that. And I feel very privileged to have had those opportunities but to to to really go with my gut and to to be okay with that to not second guess those those career moves or those schooling moves and to, I think I would have like someone to tell me to just kind of chill out and if I'm if I'm listening to my gut and that's that's probably the right move. I thank you very much Emily for letting us inside your ideas on this episode it's been a shared pleasure to get your wisdom and your insight on the important work that you're doing and I hope to see you in Glasgow and and New York at the UN food system and make it to Rome in June but I definitely want to see you around and looking forward to many more wonderful things from the Good Food Institute and from you. Thank you very much for having me mark I really appreciate it. It was so good to have you thank you so much take care bye bye.