 All right, I'm going to start on time because I have exactly 23 minutes of slides for a 25-minute session. So if afterwards you want to have questions, I will stick around through the next session which is also code of conduct session. And then afterwards we can have more conversation. If you want to find me on Twitter, my Twitter handles are up there. So hi, I'm Sage Sharp. I have my own company called OtterTech where I do diversity and inclusion consulting and I also have been an open source developer for 10 years. And so through my work with OtterTech and being an open source community for a very long time, I've watched a lot of communities adopt code of conduct and it's usually because in reaction to some event that happens either in their community or in another community. Maybe they get trolls that come and maybe they get spammers. Maybe they have someone that submits Bitcoin mining code to their CI system. And so they want to try to make sure to tell the trolls, no this is a welcoming place. You don't belong here. There are also a lot of communities that feel pressured to adopt a code of conduct because all the other communities are doing it. Why shouldn't my community do it? It's insert current year. Why don't you have a code of conduct? Some communities adopt a code of conduct because someone table flips. They go public about the harassment or abuse that they face and sometimes that means that customers decide not to use particular products or software or get involved in communities. And so it's important that these communities come and they have code of conduct because of these reactionary events. A lot of them don't necessarily have a plan for how to enforce the code of conduct, how to try to make their communities more welcoming place. So what I like to do is I like to try to ask the people that I'm doing consulting with three fairly simple questions, but they get complex really fast. And these are folks that are trying to adopt a code of conduct. Maybe they're doing a code of conduct review, modifying it or trying to get advice on putting together a plan for how to do code of conduct enforcement. So I ask them three fairly simple questions that get complex fairly fast. The first one is why? Not why is your community adopting a code of conduct, not why your community leaders are adopting code of conduct, but why do your customers, why do your community members and why does even your boss want you to adopt a code of conduct? And the second question is who? Who is going to enforce your code of conduct and how? How are they going to enforce it? So let's dig a little deeper into the question of why? Why should you have a code of conduct besides these sorts of reactionary events occurring? And it actually turns out that McKinsey has done a study of companies. And what they did was they ranked companies based on their gender diversity. And what they found was that companies that were in the highest quartile for gender diversity were actually 15% more likely to financially outperform companies that were in the lowest quartile. So having a diverse gender perspective really helps companies. And when you look at race and ethnicity, then that becomes even more likely to financially outperform your competitors. But it's not just enough to bring in diverse voices. You need to make sure that they're also heard and listened to and respected and can get into leadership positions. And in order for that to happen, sometimes culture needs to change. And sometimes we have to address biases that we have. So there was a study of GitHub. And in tech, we really cling to this notion that tech is a meritocracy. We submit code, people review code. And it should be equal as long as you can speak English well. But in this particular study, what they found was they looked at people's GitHub profiles and they looked at the email address. And if it was a Gmail address, they did a query out to the Google Plus API and said, Google, what gender does this person say they are? Which is ethically kind of morally weird. But Google said, hey, this is what the terms of service say we can do. And so the researchers were like, well, okay, we'll do this. And so what they found through this research was that if your Google Plus profile was marked as female, if you were a woman, then you were more likely to get your poll requests accepted, but only if your username and your profile were not feminine. If someone could identify you as a woman, you were actually more likely to get more comments on your poll requests, more pushback, and less likely to be able to get it merged. So even though we like to think the tech is a meritocracy, it's not. There's still bias, and it still exists. And sometimes what happens is that bias is often in some of our developers who have been around for a long time, and it's really hard to try to go and have conversations with them about correcting that bias because you don't want to lose them necessarily, right? They're really important to your community. They've been around for a while. They do a lot of work. But there's another study that shows. And it looked particularly at churn within companies. And they said, okay, so these developers that are toxic, but they're great, you know, how much do they add to the bottom line? And it turns out that they actually add less to the bottom line of the company than the company has to pay and the people who leave and the bonuses for the people they have to hire that have left because of toxic workers. So if you relate this to developer communities, sure, maybe these toxic folks are doing a lot of work, but they're also causing a lot of churn. They're causing a lot of work for people who are trying to welcome newcomers and get them in and get people into more leadership positions where they're causing more churn there. So something to think about. Another thing too is that this is not just related to smaller companies. So Google did a study and they wanted to figure out what was the most indicator of success for teams. They looked at education. They looked at mix of technical versus non-technical folks. They looked at age. They looked at all sorts of demographics. And what they found was the most productive teams at Google were the ones where people felt listened to and respected, which brings us back to your code of conduct. If your code of conduct says we value your perspective, we want you here. We want to respect you and listen to. But your code of conduct isn't enforced. Your code of conduct is an empty promise. If you say we want to make this a safe community for all, for all people to feel welcome, but you don't actually know how to enforce your code of conduct or you don't have a plan, this is an empty promise. And so the next couple of questions are how do we live up to the things that we put in our code of conduct to try to make sure that we have a safe and welcoming environment for everyone? So the first question is who? Who is going to enforce your code of conduct? Because you need a team put together and hopefully you don't put that team together after an incident occurs. Because you will get flack because it takes a while to put it together. And hopefully that team reflects the different perspectives that you want to promote the values that you've put into your code of conduct. It's not good to continually ask people who are from groups underrepresented in tech to always do the work, but you want to make sure that they have input and they have a seat at the table if they'd like it. Another thing to note is that your code of conduct enforcement team needs to be available around the clock. Because if something happens at 3 a.m. on the West Coast and no one's around, you still need to be able to address that issue. If you're running events, you need to decide, you know, how far does the code of conduct extend? Do they extend to evening events? And if so, do you have enough people around who can actually be at the events to actually take a report and make sure that they're sober as well to take the report? It's useful to be able to physically identify people who have gone through code of conduct incident response training and know how to take a report. Because not every staff person, especially at a really big conference or even a medium-sized conference is going to know how to take a report. So having something physical, like a shirt or hat or whatever, to try to identify them is very useful. It's also useful to have the contact information for the code of conduct reporter, so either a phone number or an email address or even an anonymous form where people can report. Because sometimes people don't feel comfortable reporting, associating themselves with the report because there's a lot of reputation hit that they may take if they make a report. And in this particular example, it's really good because it identifies the person who is behind the code of conduct email address. I've seen a lot of code of conducts where it's just abuse at, whatever, info at, whatever, that doesn't tell me who's behind it. And if I have an issue with an organizer, I'm not sure if they're going to be the one that's going to get the email for me. So listing the individual people who are on your code of conduct team both gives me the confidence that there's someone behind that email and also allows me to individually contact folks if there's a problem. Because your code of conduct team might slip up. Another thing to think about is not just newcomers or trolls coming into your community and having a code of conduct violation, but how would you handle it if a key developer had a code of conduct violation and you had to ban them? What if they can force push to your repository? What if they have access to your server? What if they have access to your mail server? What if they have access to your chat logs? So it's important to think about what would happen if someone with the keys to the community actually had an incident occur. It's also important to think about within your code of conduct incident response team what happens when there's a conflict of interest. Because if there's a conflict of interest, then sometimes people need to recluse themselves. And the other members of the team will figure out the situation. If you have documentation of your code of conduct violations, it's very important to plan for these conflicts of interest. So if you're using something like Google Docs or other things, allowing individual file permissions so that only certain people have access to it is very useful. However, do note that link sharing, turning that on, means that anyone who has the link can go find it. Also note that sometimes you have meta information about a file. So someone can look at when was the last time it was modified. Oh, they must have met last night to talk about this. They can dig through the comments and figure out who was advocating for what. And so it's very important to think about what kinds of meta information people can find. So let's talk a little bit about the how. How do you enforce a code of conduct? And I really want to thank Audrey Eschwright of Safety First PDX. She developed this particular framework for putting code of conduct violations into this framework. So the framework is basically risk versus impact. So how risky is the situation? How harmful could it be? And taking into account also like mental health, physical health, financial resources, that sort of thing. And then the second framework is impact. Does it impact one person? Does it impact multiple people? So if someone says a sexist joke in a private conversation, then that would be a low risk, low impact situation. With the caveat, of course, that whisper network exists. People talk to each other. And if you badly handle a code of conduct issue, then people will find out about it. So when you're thinking about impact, think not just about is it the one person, but also what would happen if a whole bunch of people heard about it. And so you can basically use this framework to think about what sort of response you would have to an incident. So if it's something like a joke in a conversation, maybe you would issue a warning. You would say something like we want to make sure that our conference is inclusive. And I just wanted to let you know that that term is problematic. Here's some other terms you could use instead. If someone is having issues with maybe they're acting out online in your community. Maybe they're just grumpy at everyone. Maybe you could just say, hey, let's have a time out. Can you just take a break from your particular community for just a while and go try to deal with some of the burnout that I can see you're having? If it's something like an interpersonal conflict that's starting to go into the more riskier areas, maybe you want to offer someone to walk them back to their hotel. Maybe you can say to the person, don't contact this person. It's fine if you're at the event, but if you contact them, then we will remove you. If it's something more high impact, like someone made a joke in a presentation, you might need to issue a public apology. You may need to ask someone not to come back. If it's something like someone brings a weapon to a conference, and that starts to get into the more high impact high risk situation where you're like, no, you really need to leave the conference. And we will involve building security if you don't leave and put your concealed carry away and then come back. If it starts to get into a situation like harassment, stalking, doxing, that's really when you need to have a very quick response and have everyone involved to have a coordinated response fast. But there's still some complexities when you think about code of conduct. And one of them is, where does the code of conduct end and begin? Where are the boundaries of your communities? If it's an event like DrupalCon, then it's the conference space. It's the evening events. But then what happens if someone's out drinking after the events and something problematic happens? On online spaces, it gets complicated as well. You might say, well, it applies to our Slack channel. It applies to the GitHub repo and issue tracker. But then what happens when someone's giving a talk if they're representing your community at another conference and something happens? And so the borders of your community are something that you need to talk about when you're thinking about how to enforce a code of conduct. It's also important to think about what would happen if an incident occurred in another open source community, maybe a related one. Maybe it's a tool that your community builds on. And the person is involved in both communities. And in that case, would you preemptively say, no, you're not welcome in our community as well? Or would you just say, well, it doesn't really apply because our code of conduct doesn't really apply to that community. It really depends. It's something you need to think about. Another complex issue is interpersonal violence between folks. Because interpersonal violence is usually between people you know. And so the likelihood of it happening between community members is something that may happen. And so you need to think about how you would deal with someone coming to you with the issue of domestic violence, interpersonal abuse, and how you would deal with that situation. There are a lot of issues and a lot of conferences recently have had issues with not necessarily handling it well, not notifying people in advance. And so it's something I would encourage folks to think about how they would handle before they have to decide which friend to believe. The other thing to think about is whether you just take into the behavior in your community or you look at the larger picture. So especially in cases like online harassment, stalking, doxing, it may or may not happen all in your community. It's often spread across multiple social media as emails, blog comments. And so you need to think about, do you take into account this pattern of unwanted contact? Or do you just look at the borderline behavior within your community? All very complex questions. So we started out with three really simple questions. Why does your customers and your boss and your community members want you to have a good enforced code of conduct? Who is going to enforce your code of conduct and how you're going to enforce it? So as I said, very simple questions and they complicated really, really fast. There's some resources that I put on this slide, including some from my company, from other diversity and inclusion folks that do that. And so as I said, it's pretty short. We have about six minutes if someone had like one or two questions. Hi, thanks for that. Do you have any thoughts about how to define the boundaries of community in specifically in governance conversations? When we talk about how do we govern technological or less technological conversations, what keeps coming up is like, where does the community start and stop? Yeah. And I think it's a difficult question because if someone's, for example, if someone's Twitter account is 90% group, right? There's some or they're a leader and a bunch of people follow them and it's a difficult boundary of where that is. But at the same time you need to, it's difficult because you need to make sure that people can have a private life, right? So I know for me, it really depends on the person. If they are seen as a leader and the question you have to ask yourself is, would we want the rest of our community members to emulate that behavior? Because there's a lot of communities that have not so great behavior from the leaders. And then that means that the rest of the community is not so great, despite all of the work of some people trying to make a difference, so. Okay, it's me again. Hello again. Kit, that's really helpful. Thank you. Do you have any thoughts then on how communities can define who is in leadership? Because we move in and out of it, even within the same community, right? I'm a leader over there, but I'm not here. Yeah. Defining a leader. Oh, that sounds like a really broad question. So I'm going to give a really broad answer back. I mean, so there's different kinds of leadership, right? You need to acknowledge that there's both technical and non-technical leadership. So there's people who run events. There's people who do code. There's people who write documentation. All of these can be leaders, right? And sometimes people can be quiet leaders. They don't necessarily have to have a really huge following to still have impact on the project. Yeah, I think I'm going to leave that. It's really broad. Sorry. If you want to make like an official term, I mean, there are some communities that have very specific leadership positions, right? There's like, for example, there's like the Mozilla reps program, right, where they have official sort of things, but not every community has that. Is there a shy question back there? Okay. We'll end early then. If you have more questions, I will be sticking around. Thank you. That's okay. It's recorded, right? Yeah. Watch this. You. So I added the like community combo code of kind of buffers, right? Oh, maybe they be here. You should just like, invite them over for a movie night and then just be like, here, we're going to watch this. Nope. Yep. Yes. I like getting the people who need to be in the room in the room. I was talking to somebody yesterday, I think, about their talk idea, and it was something like, comments I just want to know. And I was like, you can't call it comments I just want to know. And people who need to be there think they have comments I just want to know. So they would never go to a comments I just want to know because really why would I need that? People who will be passionately upset don't necessarily like to engage in the preamble or in the constant that they have the passion and the energy, but they're not actually interested in the longer run conversation. And that makes it hard to figure out how to have a productive conversation because you do need people who are varieties of opinions, but not everybody likes to show up in equal numbers. And I think it's a fun idea of sending a recording to people, to take away their excuse, not knowing the information, but also legitimately, perhaps they were really visiting, because the people who need to hear these kinds of things are the people who can make change. And those people are really important things. And it feels good to be here. The literature training to change the direction to go. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's right now. That's right now. That's a seminar. I think we have teacher experts like standing up in front, like teaching people how to read literature. What? Come again, excuse me. No, I'll get that. Oh, I'm going to... I didn't want to say anybody. You have to read literature. Yeah, but I say literature was pre-registered because I remember when it flowed. It was like, you know, I've done this. Like today, right? Yeah, it happened after lunch. Was that a fall? No. It was a long or a fall? Yes. Was it a fall? Yeah, it was a fall. And one of the things she brought up, I mean it, was just like, of course it was the women who are usually there, or almost are there, for example. And she just had an interesting point as to what she was doing on. It was like, maybe the sessions, maybe we need to shift with their titles and their approaches need to shift. Wouldn't it be interesting to have... And I've actually seen it before, but not on my own, but like a business case for, like, a diverse client or team is like a more vanilla one, but it's like, where are all... like something like... because they all come there like, they can't find the women. Can I use your network so that we can hire more women? Or just go and be like, I can't find the women, where are they, kind of hire women? Or, you know, like, whatever. It's like a percentage of the business case, like that was part of the session, which I... I thought it was, like, I was like, oh, that's, you know, in technical communities, we've all needed, you know, women and people who are not cis men as we did together. And maybe, like, we're returning past that, maybe we just... like maybe somebody should perform such a very business. It's like, we're on line. It's like, we can do some of that stuff, there's one thing that I really respect in this case, and I'm like, yeah, here's all of the data, but they tend for people to act with conversations, like with the ROI and diversity. And I think it's finding the balance, I think it's not necessarily that we're past it, but there are some people who are... No, not people who are... Yeah, it's just finding the mix, because I think one of the challenges, I've had a lot of the... to go into the procession for the ally position, is a lot of time the sessions become I'm really good at problem statement. And like, thank you to the ally session last year, and like the ally session, they're finding that place of, like, how do we get out of problem statement, and into problem solving? It's not that problem statement doesn't need to be restated, and it isn't important, but it's not equally important to all parts of the audience at all times, and how do we make sure that there is that piece of awareness that people are getting but how to conduct a good conversation. Right, I agree, there's a problem. How do I become part of the solution is much more interesting conversation to me than re-hearing problem statement. I think there are different parts of the larger audience that still need to hear the problem statement, and the people who have heard the problem statement and agreed that this problem needs to be in the room for the, like, okay, where do we go to hear a thing? Yeah. But there should be, like, the one-on-one talk followed by the two-of-one talk. Oh, right. And one of the challenges is presenting, like, having the session title and whatever else be something that people who need to hear the problem statement don't think they don't need to hear. Because I'm certain that, you know, why do we need a code of conduct for people? Like, there was no way they were going to come to this room and make them a federal department. And that's their fault. You know, that's a problem that has as much to do with their attitude as anything else in terms of, like, marketing. If you have a better idea of what the talk type is like. I've been, like, ruminating on that for the past few minutes and haven't gotten anywhere yet. So I wanted to take the talk to the title of Calling All White Men. I mean, that's literally what I call it. I put it in the title. Get something to wipe in. Not any. No. No. Oh, no, no, no. So, I mean, there's sometimes, like, where I question, like, you know, should I be in the room in terms of, like, not this, like, I'm glad to be here, right? You know, but when there's, you know, some talks or, like, talks for affinity groups and I'm not a member of that affinity group. Like, sometimes it says, and allies, and I, you know, but, like, I get concerned about how much space I'm taking and, like, you know, I think about, like, I'm still thinking about, like, tonight, should I, I want to be supportive of the Women in Drupal event, but should I be there? Right? Because, you know, I don't know. I mean, it sounds like an ally, but I'm not. I, I struggle with that, so. Well, I mean, I do too. Can we put the actor there deliberately? It's just close to, I mean, it is the thing. Well, I didn't see that. Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, and that is someone, because, I mean, it's a thing. I mean, it's a, like, some of that is also that branding challenge of do you rename the thing? Yeah. Or do you keep the branded, identified thing and try to expand the group? We try. Yeah. I'm like, I'm being, what is all the time in your life? Being the ally, being present, and, and wanting to, to be in the space and part of the space, somebody comes in is recognizing that if there is that it is, as the ally, part of my responsibility to step into that conflict appropriately at the same time and not just leave that on other people who have to do that all the time but then also yet preserving that space and not, and not denying agency that I was like, I got this. There's no problem. I'll just maximize everybody's way of it. No problems. I just add Very clear what the rules were. They're all saying anything. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was very clear and it worked very well. It was hilarious when somebody came in like, it was a small group, the one that I'm remembering. That was a different one. That was a different one. We kicked him out. He was a photographer. With his camera. With his camera. We all wear formal hats. We all wear formal hats. He did take his hat off, and we also took pictures of the life at the box. It was mostly about diversity in the workplace and during the QA time most of the people who went up to the mic were white men. You ran that ring with me. Most of them basically running the typical, what about hiring the best candidate for the job? And that was actually where I learned very clearly as a cis-het white guy I'm going to listen. It feels like there's really, truly, honestly something meaningful I can contribute. But, on my side, I'm absolutely certain that what I have to say is something no one else is going to be able to say. And, you know, sometimes the other white guys in the room are only going to listen to the other white guys in the room because that's how that's how stuck they are. Ooh, maybe for us. Yeah, there's that one. And that one is because I don't think... Oh, well, there you go. And it's easy. He might not work with you on it. But she was, like, having a theory brain and, like, just, like, you know, I don't have the answer to that. But, like, just, well, I do think you should call it a farewell to play because that's what everyone's talking about. Like, just call it something else. Just call it. An anxiety check. I'm not writing right now. Perfect. I'm not writing. People didn't even talk to me, including the divorce papers. People will show up. An anxiety check. Like, what if this talk was from me too? It comes from you. Let's say it's my talk. I put even on the schedule a TV. It's a TV talk. You know what? He would love that. Because, like, if people started leaving the room, he'd be, like, they'd be here. Yeah, they'd co-present. They'd just keep waiting for their slide. Oh, my God. That's a really great idea. There is an appropriate place for those voices as well to be part of that. I mean, particularly in the place where we're making the business argument as the L.I. argument of, it's not something that women are saying men should be doing, but men saying, yes, we should be. But it is tricky to find a path. I mean, it's all a path. It's just hard. I find, like, sometimes when I write my book, whether it's anytime you see guys losing a voice and other voices who are silent, and it's first, because, like, you want to help, but, like, sometimes it's not it's better and hearing his governance questions that's what we were talking about. It was in a flat channel and we were just discussing community governance. I was saying things, and people would just keep talking. Mark would be like, yeah, I agree with the team and then give his opinion of it and people would suddenly change their subject. I was like, thank you, Mark. For me, that was, like, something that's amplifying my point. People are like, thank you. It's not like that. Async communication can kind of be slightly but, I mean, it doesn't solve everything, but, like, yeah, when I was doing quick stuff, like, we have, like, visual person would talk all the time and, you know, like, you couldn't get worded, and then it'd be a pop. There's no point in doing that. At least with, like, Async, you can get your plan across with those sometimes, like you said. I like it better though, Jeff. I'm like, literally, it's like they don't interact. And she did it over and over and everything to get cut off over and over by men. Wow! There's a coffee bar. You can play it, but there's, like, one place where, like, there's a bar. I'm not going to make coffee. There's always this thing. But I've heard people saying it sells coke and I'm like, oh, these sells coffee. That's tiny snacks. I don't like it. I'm gonna eat yours. I'm gonna eat yours. I'm gonna eat yours. I'm gonna eat yours. I also know that I did quite a bit when I was buying my new things. Okay, there are croissants. That's the croissants. They're croissants. I'm going to cut the corner. Yeah, I'm going to cut it. They're croissants. I have a tired first group. You just walk away. I used to take naps in there. Where is the group? I haven't found it. I bet that's the most effective. It's right here. It's one over the other. I'm like, okay. Yeah. I'm going to get out of here. Really? What about her? Well, yeah. It's a half hour in total. I think if you get one over to that other group, I'd like to do that. It's not that effective. Is that fair? I'm sure that's a good idea. I'm going to get me out of here. I'm going to walk. I'm like, okay, all right. I'm going to get a move. I heard you, I heard you. Do you hate- I don't do it. I do hate it. I don't do it. You hate it. I don't support it. I don't support it. I don't do it. I don't just do stuff. You hate it. That's fine. You hate it. I don't do it. You hate it. You hate it. you hate it. That's fine. I'm doing it. Like, those are the ones that are set to come in. Oh, yeah, go ask them, like, both and we buy. Taking charge of the conversation, and then, like, I want to hear from you. Two or three people. You know, like, when I was a kid. And then, they come in the afternoon. Which is, I don't know, like, it's a round or a round. You know, all the other, like, two or three things. Right? And then, they come in the afternoon. But then, like, they come in the afternoon. That's what it means. Like, you have to read it. I definitely need to read it. Um, I want to know who's the teacher here. Oh, OK. Where's the teacher? Hi. OK. I got to say, you know, like, you, yeah, sure. Hold this. Yes. And this is, like, my, like, people who know me very well. Because, you know, they think it's really, like, interesting to walk there. I know they think it's funny. Oh. That's good. My assistant has done it to me. My old, what? Because she remembers where she's from. Yes. She remembers everything. She remembers everything. Well, you should see her. You remember. It's just very intriguing. You go to the store for about 50 hours. And that's like the brand. And then I push her back. But then I get to use it. I get to use it. But then I put it in my pocket. I put it in my pocket. But then I go like, if I put it in my pocket. It's nice. And then I take it back to the store. And I get to use it. I go to the store. I'm like, I don't like to use it. But then I go to the store. I'm just not sure why I'm having my hair cut. Thank you. Oh, he would raise the hair cut. Yeah. Oh, it is. I think I have a way more exact than most different ideas. And all of everyone has a major devil in their life. I was first going home. Hey, everybody. And the name of all is here. His way did I handle it. I wouldn't get peppermint when you say it. I think the one guy... Well, we go. And he would walk out. Thank you. She is fascinated by the hair. That's so. But after that, fascinating things you did, like, I was believing, that you are faster than a person. That's how we got it. Well, and do you get, like, after the hour, the before the ending? I mean, that is the good thing I think most of our clients, I mean, the left, I mean, one of the first, I mean, I was pushed out of college behind in my career, right? Is that true? On digital marketing, I mean, it's not, it's just on the fly. I'm running my career. No, I mean, so... You're the people who are the reason for your whole life, right? That's what it's a lot of money for. Wait, I just... I know, I didn't know. It's been a poor product in years ago. But... It's important to store your own narrative in your communication. Yeah. I mean, we were stealing this from Johnny Ford, right? No, we didn't have it. We didn't have it. Oh my God. How old are you guys? And then I... And then I was just... Like, it doesn't... I'm like, all of a sudden, like... My first year, I was like... No, this is... Oh my God. This is really old! And then because I was bringing him this long ago, we were kind of like two years prior to our career. And then we started to play with him. Not because he was right here. Well, we started on a whole new... I think we were... It was different in my old life, pretty good. But in the back, everything was different. There was a little bit of a... The concept of a pressure is all about being on the table. And being on the table. I think we were... I mean, I was... There was no letter that sounded like that. I was here. I was here. We were right here. We were right here. Like, we don't have any value with it. Who's doing things? Talk to you. She... Are you still in the car? I am. So, have you heard of what everybody's saying about... I'm curious about it. I'm curious about it. I wonder if you are. No, I'm not. But... I find it a bit weird. The technology is like... No, I'm not. Made in the car. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. And she's like... I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. On E- So, you did something where you didn't put open source in the title. What? Well, it's the future. Oh I need to know the future. No, they gave me that title. Oh, I see. They gave me that title and I had to figure out what the top was about. about. Yeah. They must have really wanted you to speak. I can't. I don't know. I'm telling you what, the kind of kind of community, like, really wanted to, like, kind of, you know, not, like, specific people speak. You know, not just specific people, but like, specific communities. We didn't, we didn't want to just, like, let.