 Hi everyone, it's just gone one o'clock my time so I think we can we can make a start and I can see a number of you already in the room so welcome and thanks for being so punctual. My name is Juliet and I'm the external events officer at the International Institute for Environment and Development. I'm really looking forward to this conversation, why inclusion matters for a green post COVID recovery. And today's event is part of the IID debate series and hosted in partnership with the Green Economy Coalition and we're really happy and excited to be partnering for this important conversation on inclusion. So, yes, I think that is it from me. I'm going to now hand over to Laura Kelly who is the director of the shaping sustainable markets research group at IID and who's going to be our chair for today. Thank you very much Juliet and I'd like to join Juliet in welcoming you all here to this webinar this afternoon. It's great. We've organized this because we've got speakers from Asia and from Latin America. Hopefully we've got participants from from those regions as well because this is a really key global issue for us. COVID has ravaged economies and countries across the world, and the opportunities for economic recovery being green and more inclusive are being focused about increasingly. But the key question is how do we actually do that. And it's really good to work with GC on promoting the work that they've been doing over the last four years, working with local partners on what green and inclusive transition means and I think there are some valuable lessons in there that we're going to explore today. And it's a really great set of speakers that we've got I'll introduce everybody briefly but you can see more background on them in the chat box. So, first of all, we have Stuart Worsley, who is the dialogues director at the Green Economy Coalition, and Stuart's been working with our partners to really get these dogs king with local level participation and actually bringing the right people together to discuss the issues to help ensure that civil society voices influence the policy processes. The two partners who we've got joining us today are Zenat Nadazi from developed alternatives in India. Zenat is one of their associate directors and has been working in this area for the last 20 years. We've got Louis Prado, the executive producer at Liberlula in Peru. He's one of the countries that's really been hit very badly by Covid so it will be great to get their perspectives on how green and inclusive recovery can help. It's been a huge economic shock for them. We're also very happy to be joined by Dibble Pozavin from the European Commission. He works on issues around green economy and green transition. It's really great to get their perspectives and they've been a strong supporter of the GC. There's also Najma Mohamed, who is the policy director at the Green Economy Coalition and is responsible for the research report that is a lot of what of today's discussions are based on and again the link to that is in the chat box. So we've got a lot of speakers we've got a really interesting topic so I want to let the discussions commence so I'll start by handing over to Stuart to give an overview of the dialogues process today. Good morning. My name is Stuart Worsley and I work with the Green Economy Coalition and I'm the director of the country programs and I oversee our dialogues work. Lasting change doesn't actually happen unless lots of people want it and even brilliant ideas struggle to get off the ground when very few people see the point. We've shown that involving and working with people who are worst affected by environmental and social problems. Change can happen quickly. This inclusion of people who do not normally participate in planned change processes is important. Inclusion is normally stated as a moral thing to do based on human rights where everyone is afforded similar opportunity and consideration. It's also being perceived to be inefficient to getting things done and it's seen as a moral cost perhaps. It's rarely described as a practical measure and normally it seemed to incur this moral cost that detracts from efficiency. Today, we're going to show that participation has in fact accelerated green economy transition in seven lower and middle income countries. If the systems change, inclusion is not a nice to have. It's a must have. Yet there's been very little investment in finding out what matters to people or to involve them in bringing about sustainable change programs around the world. Instead, investment has defaulted to work on expert defined national level policy agendas. From the European Commission, the Green Economy Coalition has run a series of country initiatives to build a critical mass of public demand and to connect this to the evolution of important national policies. We've done this in Peru, India, the Caribbean, Senegal, Uganda, South Africa and Mongolia. In this country, work has engaged on what people think matters and from this basis, we've engaged policy. In these countries, what matters has been air pollution and soil depletion in India and Mongolia. Unfair business bias against green enterprise in Peru, South Africa and the Caribbean. In river systems in Uganda, small scale fishing and farming systems in Senegal. And in each country, we've worked with people who are worst affected by these issues to find out what they see, and what they experience what they're doing to fix the problems and what they're finding out, and what they would like to see happen. At the same time, we have convened national green economy policy platforms to bring policy makers and power players into conversations with affected people. And in each case, there has been emergence of new solutions that have taken hold and spread. We want to share the success with you, but we have changed policies and we have accelerated green economy action. And this is the key. And the key to our approach has been inclusion implemented through our dialogues approach. Our dialogues program has generated strong evidence and support of both the necessity of inclusion in green economy transition processes. And in the efficiency or efficacy of the participatory dialogues approach in enhancing such inclusion. In countries green economy dialogues have sought to build a critical mass of coherent public demand to stimulate policy action in response to evidence from such demand. Our hub networks and their dialogue and brokering processes have been catalytic. They have accelerated green economy transition beyond that possible with just bureaucratic processes. They have accelerated and enabled governments to implement an operationalized plans and strategies more effectively and efficiently with greater distributed and inclusive benefits. Government bodies have seen that participatory processes add value to policy implementation and action, and the dialogues have helped harmonize government action. This participation, learning, networking, and this has led to increased ownership, adaptation and sustainability. This is leading to scale. They have changed people's mindsets that taking collective action is worthwhile. Network stakeholders have been able to provide evidence to influence policy, building a connected critical mass has elevated green economy concepts with the public and the media. They have brought new voices and they have injected greater urgency and demand into green economy transition policy debates and processes. They have improved the range, depth and nature of more inclusive participation. That's my friend telling me to stop. You've got you've got another in it, Stuart. They have improved the range, depth and nature of more inclusive participation and have made for better evidence. They have improved downwards and upwards communication flows and connectivity. They have fostered constructed relationships, networks and platforms. They have linked and connected local national and regional levels. Dialogues have strengthened wider connections with other green blue initiatives, both nationally and regionally. And at this moment in time where change is needed as we confront COVID climate change, biodiversity loss, social crisis and poverty. We now need the involvement of people to shape and drive change more than ever. So Peru and India stories are samples of the whole that are inspiring. And I'd like to pass over now to Zenat to tell you what's been happening in India. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Stuart. It's lovely to be here. And good, good evening. Good afternoon. Good morning, depending on which time zone people are from and I let me take you actually to do the example in India. You know, when stakeholders who are part of the implementation or action become part of the solution finding, then we see the green economy transitions happen faster, and they're more grounded, and they're more fit to context. And we saw this in our India program. And I'll take you straight to the, to the work that we were doing and along with the GC, and of course a whole number of partners in India to a specific example of our work in Bihar, which is the eastern state in where the focus of our program was greening the construction sector, mainly brick sector. It's a sector dominated by the clay fired bricks sector that leads to immense pollution and where the space was being created to shift to a cleaner production process through introduction of new ways of producing bricks and a new product, which is a fly ash base spring, using a waste from the thermal power plants to produce, which produce no additional pollutants. The opportunity came primarily from the national policy space, where there were regulations and there were guidelines that were put in put up for the states to start implementing fly ash use of fly ash in construction. One of the challenges, you know, the first one was the translation of national policy intent to really the state implementation where data evidence, supporting mechanisms, understanding of the practical barriers and drivers towards the shift. These were problems that the state machinery had on their hands, but they also was a very interesting, and I think very, very practical challenge that of information asymmetry between those who would implement this on the ground and be part of that solution which was the producers, who would come in to produce green bricks, the fire fly ash bricks, and how do they understand government orders and government decisions and how do their concerns of market supply challenge and challenges of quality etc would get reflected in the government processes, and what was the trust in building and the bridge communication bridge between different actors. So we along with the GC program there were other supporting initiatives that came together and we not only needed to conduct the local assessments and studies but also to get the information and concerns of the actors on the ground to each other. Particularly for us the state government to government bodies came across as champions the state government was positive, which was a good thing, and the Department of environment and forests climate change in the Bihar and the Bihar State pollution control board became the champions. The first area of action was ready to support these and local special inter departmental task force was constituted of which we played the role of a secretariat for quite some time, and we helped in building the scientific evidence from the ground. And in parallel we were working with the local CSOs and the nascent small group of entrepreneurs who were trying to survive in a very competitive market with price disadvantages with very poor credit support, irregular material supply. And so we had discussion processes that were set up between the fly ash brick association at the state level linking them to the national fly ash brick association and the state level state level body. The first breakthrough really was the formal formation beyond the task force was a formation of a state level monitoring committee which included this inter departmental task force but also on the table were the fly ash along with the suppliers of fly ash, which is the mammoth national thermal power corporation of India so we had everybody on the table, putting out their concerns and discussing trying to find solutions through where it means there were meetings there were workshops there were seminars. There were field visits. The second breakthrough really was the evidence from the ground and this was where you know, when the initiative started it was much pushed it was much more pushed by the climate change and the pollution agenda, the emissions agenda of the brick production sector but what we found from the ground. And the evidence showed that is, it is here you know that you almost 53 million tons of topsoil were being gobbled up by the fire clay sector. And suddenly we had the government department sit up because now you had conflict with the agriculture the food production space, and we had much more sort of buy in, and the task force really came alive. When these conflicts became evident and it resulted in the state government issuing a number of orders and decisions that were aligned with the central notifications for cleaner production but also created an enabling environment for the fly ash brick sector in the state. So you had stringent rules for pollution management with the red brick kiln owners but you also had a new law that forbid any new brick kill to come up in the state. And you had, you had pressures on the brick industry to start shifting to cleaner technologies. This space that the fly ash brick association found on the state governments, it enabled the supply side concerns to be aired and you know the concerns of quality, where the procurement end would talk about small, you know inadequate quantity and inadequate quality. And here we had no technical support so a quality rating system was designed was set up has been anchored in the building and construction department of the state government. They're now almost 31 of these enterprises who are registered on this already. From the government's perspective, in normally it's the CSO or the intermediary who's the voice of the community. But in this case we actually had the community of enterprises represented directly their voice on the table and they could have a dialogue and reach out to the government. You have now 200 plus MSMEs represented on this policy table. New orders on this on supporting the enterprises were issued so we had an order for all public buildings within 100 kilometer of the fly ash source, who had to now who have to now use fly ash bricks in 100% of their construction. This was contested in this in court and it was by the government, but the fly ash association managed to get an order from the National Green Tribunal for it. We also had at the national level, a lobby of the fly ash associations and other CSOs who are able to successfully get a shift and a change in the goods and services tax the GST on fly ash bricks, reducing it from 18% to 5% which gave a price and a better playing field. We found that we've been able to amplify scientific evidence to change government perspective, better information flow, you know, more conducive to the context policies at the state level. And I think what we've seen is that green economy actions have been effectively shaped around local concerns and viability of running green enterprises. So it's the greening the in greening the brick sector agenda we've been able to integrate the SME as driving that agenda, which is which is really the interesting part. We see a tremendous potential going forward in the post COVID recovery from the space we see that the post COVID green recovery agenda would benefit from spaces such as these where the stakeholders can come together to co create solutions, which will be fit to context, they will be longer lasting, they will take the real concerns of the real people on into account, and they will build a recovery strategy that in a sense will be a stepping stone for the longer period transition to the green greener and more inclusive and equitable economy, which is really where we want to go using the recovery as as a base. Thank you. That's great. Thank you very much, Nina, and really great to hear about the sort of the progress from the dialogues through to influencing policy there like to turn now to Louise Prado from Peru so good morning to you, Luis. Good morning Laura. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for your regards to everybody from the map room. Our story started a bit more than three years ago and has as the main actor, a group of micro small and medium enterprises MSMEs that are creating a positive impact on the world through their enterprises. So, why did we choose to focus our actions on green MSMEs. We believe that they are accelerators for the transition to an inclusive green economy. And during these cobit times would also be a very, very important actor for recuperation of our very, very one down economy. And green MSMEs are a key actor in the Peruvian society. They represent 99% of all enterprises and contribute to 80% of the economic active population and 40% of the growth of met domestic product. They are an important source of innovation and a vital driver for growth. They are very vulnerable. Most of them are informal. Only 6% of them have access to find format financials in activities. And 50% of all enterprises don't make it through the first year. They need all the help that they can get by very often they are the bottom of the government's priority. For the most part of them we created positive impact on a large part of our population, many of whom depend on these small businesses as their own source of income. Therefore, what have we done. The green economy coalition Peru has become an important ally for green MSMEs. We are empowering them to improve their competitiveness and resilience with the aim of increasing the number of green enterprises in the market. We have created a community to make them stronger to give them a voice to help them create synergies, solve common obstacles and attract new opportunities for all. And how did we achieve this. Our first action was getting to know the green MSMEs. We carried out dialogue process processes through dialogue breakfast meetings to understand their challenges and top needs. We learned that they struggle from lack of visibility that they need informed consumers that can understand the value they create that they lack access to financing alternatives that they lack government support and incentives. And that they feel alone and neglected struggling to make it on their own. With this in mind, we focus our actions in three fronts, connecting communicating and influencing. We generated spaces for the community to connect with each other with organizations that could open up new opportunities for them and with responsible consumers. We communicated the benefits of the green economy by exposing real cases from our community by participating in conferences and workshops, writing case studies and carrying out press campaigns. We influenced policy makers by developing alliances with key actors by interacting with them through dialogue spaces, events and documents that exposes the entrepreneur's voice. To date, we have a stronger community of more than 220 MSMEs that are attracting new opportunities for all. Our platform receives more than 500 visitors each day, giving visibility and connecting the green businesses with responsible consumers. We gave support to congressman Alberto Velaunde to pass his project lot for collective benefit enterprises, which very recently has become a law that will give a legal status to enterprises that provide benefits to society, distinguishing them from those that don't. This law will give a positive impact in four of the most important barriers for green MSMEs identified in the beginning of this project. We are a clear evidence that the green economy is a reality in Peru and the bigger we get, the more relevant we become to demand changes we need to accelerate this transition. Throughout this process, we learn many things and that one that really stands out for me is how grateful some of these entrepreneurs are just knowing that we are there for them. They feel they're alone on their hard journey of being an entrepreneur here in Peru. The confidence they have gained by knowing that they're not alone, that someone cares has been an important source of strength to carry on through difficult times. I wish to transmit their gratitude to the European Commission for International Cooperation and Development to IID and the Green Economy Coalition Family Analyze for making their lives better and in doing so helping to create a better world. Thank you Laura. Thank you, Lewis. That's really nice of you to send the good wishes from the entrepreneurs you've been working with but a really great story of very concrete outcomes from the work. I mean the fact that these enterprises now have recognition as a sort of a for benefit company and it's very much in line with trends that we're seeing across the world. We're seeing big international companies becoming for benefit but actually when you're doing that at the level of small scale entrepreneurs in Peru, I think that that's really great. So we're now going to sort of open up and have a panel discussion and so we've got Thiebel and Najma joining us and I'm going to sort of start with a couple of questions to them to enable them to say a little bit about their sort of perspectives and then we'll sort of open up to a sort of a broader dialogue and questions from you in the audience. So Najma, I'd like to start by asking you what are some of the key lessons from the dialogues for inclusive green policymaking which just has some great examples from India and Peru, but what about more broadly across the work, across the dialogue work. I know Laura and wishing everybody a warm good day where wherever you're joining us from. So I was in the fortunate position that when I started with the green economy coalition now more than a year and a half well about a year and a half ago I had the wonderful opportunity of working with the hubs and and beginning to distill the lessons from the dialogue and the voices and I think you know the stories, you know they speak for themselves. But I know Laura you started our conversation that we are facing you know the difficult fallout from the covert 19 pandemic and a lot of the social and economic vulnerabilities that that happened and we spoke to actually have been amplified and have become more visible. But this has been a moment for us to really take a hard look at our economies and and to build forward and plan and design policies for the green and a fair world. And I think that the challenge that that we have is that you know this transition has been underway we've seen in the last decade more than 80 countries have actually enacted you know green economy policies and plans and strategies sectoral greening to take us on a pathway and fortunately now we've got I think the whole world on board to tackle the climate crisis so we know that this is something urgent this is something serious. But the policy making processes often been a very technocratic very top down planning process and we've heard the incredible experiences from Peru from India how this can be different and how this can influence the outcome you know of policies and and now more than ever we need inclusion to form a meaningful part of our of both our transition and our recovery pathways and policies really only matter if they reflect society's real long term needs and once if governments implement their commitment to inclusion and if people can hold their governments to account. I think the GC hubs and I would welcome all of you to read the full report to to get the lessons from the incredible stories that the hub share actually highlight a number of insights but I'll try to just zoom in on on three inclusive transition to a green economy will not come about through one of policy consultations this is not a tick box exercise this is not bullet five in our principles of, you know, inclusive green economy transition this has to be given a real meaning and real life and embedded in governance systems. The political commitment the political world is an important part of shaping this framework. But as we create this enabling you know policy environment. I think Zenith shared the fantastic example of an intergovernmental task force of this being mainstreamed across government that it gets, you know from the vertical down to the national to the state to the local level actually give gets given meaning. And we need to understand concretely that that inclusion is not only a principle that should be driving our transition but should also be a key outcome. We have to understand what is this really going to mean. What does it mean how did impact people, how will women young people informal workers. How will people enterprises benefit from this transition who will benefit and access green jobs. How would we access the research and innovation that's that's driving this transition so we have to embed inclusion throughout our governance systems that drive our transition. I think the second lesson, and this also came out from the stories that that we should we need to understand how the how of inclusion. The institutional innovations in most of the countries with the hubs for working there were very few institutional structures or processes in place to facilitate participatory policy making. And the green economy dialogue platforms that was set up the action learning groups in the Caribbean the green in Bezos in South Africa. And the breakfast meetings, the dialogue policy tables that Zina to refer to, they've all either expanded or created entirely new spaces for policy dialogue. And this has given citizens, entrepreneurs, farmers rural communities a great mistake in the policy making processes and I think that this, the dialogues really provided an opportunity to bring voices that would otherwise have gone completely into the policy making processes. And I think that inclusive outcomes are highly unlikely if we don't have processes structures and mechanisms that involve people and and fortunately I think the green economy dialogues that the GC has been supporting is part of a bigger trend that we see through citizens climate assemblies through the just transition movements. Through social dialogue structures that are beginning to bring citizen and society voice into the policy making process. And I think thirdly this was highlighted incredibly well in the stories that the connection between local action and policy change is possible. And it's been all the hubs you know in the discussions that I had with them the opportunities to sit and listen to their stories said that this is one of, one of the goals you know one of the greatest success in factors for them is is getting voices into into the process, and the dialogues have brought local green economy priorities and plans into the policy making processes. And I think the hubs have displayed this incredible agility of engaging diverse stakeholders of building the kind of alliances that you need of taking the voices at village catchment level enterprise level into the discussion in the district state national level and with business and industry association. And I think policy comes to life in places. It gets the vision gets set at a certain level but they come into live and they get translated into action in be hard in Lima. So the GC hubs have really done an incredible job in bringing people's voices into the policy process and and just I'd love to echo something that the my colleagues to it started with is that governments institutions businesses there's a broad recognition that the need for social inclusion has to be there we see it in our vision documents it's right up there with the sort of big goals that we that we want to but there is still an assumption that participate these participatory process are going to slow down implementation they're going to be cumbersome they're going to be a roadblock you know to implementation. I think the results from the dialogues really show that inclusive process is a result in a faster transition. Yes they are there's efficiency there's effectiveness. And I think I hope you know we get a chance to speak about this because for me it's been incredible to hear the stories from Uganda from India South Africa peru. I think that's been done in the three years in this difficult moment that we're facing in economic recovery actually has an opportunity to feed into this recovery process and make sure that it's inclusive just and and sustainable. And I think Laura let me perhaps stop there and perhaps have an opportunity later to share some of the other insights as we get into more dialogue and discussion. Thank you. Thank you. And a really, you know, into, you know, enthusiasm and positive set of lessons coming out from what's been the huge amount of work and you talked about holding government and sort of, you know, how institutional structures can facilitate inclusion so I'd like to bring people into the discussion now and Tibo ask you about what you see as the sort of the role of institutions in supporting sort of green transitional green recovery at scale. And good afternoon. Good morning everyone. First, I'd like to say I'm very pleased to be participating in this event because the the topic and the green recovery inclusive recovery is very much a part of our priorities as well for the commission at the moment. And also personally I've been working with GC for several years and we've had this project come on since several years. It's really great to hear the stories from the partners while implementing this action over the last years and to see the results which have been achieved. So to answer your question I would like to refer a bit to use approach on inclusion in the context of the recovery and also in the context of our international cooperation. So first on the recovery I'd like to start by saying a few words on the Green Deal. I think many of you probably heard about this agenda agenda for sustainable growth, which at the same time contribute to tackle the environment and the climate crisis. So I think the environmental dimension of the Green Deal is well known. The inclusion component is perhaps not as well known, but it's quite, it's quite a prominent component of the Green Deal. There is in particular the Just Transition Fund as one of the key tools under the Green Deal which as the name says it's just an inclusive green transition. So here the focus is on regions, industries, workers who are most affected by the transition and the support entails promoting jobs in new sectors or jobs in sectors in transition. Reskilling of workers, developing or supporting energy functions, housing, promoting access to clean and affordable energy. So the fund has a budget or the ambition is to mobilize 150 billion euros and so I think that gives an idea of the scale and the level of importance of inclusion in the context of the Green Deal. I'd like to refer quickly to a quote from Vice President Franz Timmermans. He said on the Green Deal that we must show solidarity with the most affected regions in Europe, such as cold mining regions and others to make sure the Green Deal gets everyone full support and has a chance to become a reality. So I like this statement because it shows that the inclusion component in the Green Deal, of course it's a question of fairness, but it's also a condition to deliver. Basically, if there is no inclusion, there cannot be support from society, therefore no support for decision makers from politicians and in this case no Green Deal implemented. Now let me say a few words on the on the green recovery, which is very much driven by the Green Deal. Please to say that the Green Deal, despite the crisis context, not only has remained a priority for the EU, but it's actually, it is actually one of the main it is really driving the recovery plan of the EU. So the recovery plan reflects again the green dimension and the inclusion dimension. For instance, under the EU recovery plan, there's a high ambition in terms of expenditure for climate and environment action. 30% of the total budget of the recovery and resilience facility, that's one of the main initiatives under the recovery plan. Additional money has been allocated to the just transition mechanism. There's also been some loans to member states to address the sudden increase of expenditure related to employment or to safeguard employment. So I think that that confirms the green and inclusion dimension of the other activities and recovery. So let me move quickly to the inclusion the context of our cooperation and inclusion and in general inequalities and tackling poverty. These are the overarching objectives of our development cooperation and development policy. We do this interaction in different areas, for example, supporting employment, the design work agenda, vocational education and training. But it's broader than that. It's also, for example, territorial and urban development and environment activities, social protection. And one of the points I would like to stress here, it's also democracy and the rule of law, which, which for us means in this context participatory decision making effective accountable institutions. We have seen this reflected in practice because over the years, if we take our cooperation, maybe what it was 10, 15 or 20 years ago, many of our NGO partners and they were essentially implementing partners to deliver some cooperation projects. This has changed a lot today we see very much civil society organization as active players in the decision making processes of the partner countries where we work. And overall, as a public institution with a development agenda is to promote this. So we're doing this through different ways, promoting and trying to ensure CSO sit in the, in the development of policy processes in governance mechanisms to reinforce their capacities and their networks of civil society organization of local authorities, for instance, and also education awareness raising based on the understanding that we inform populations are some more inclined to support sustainable development. To conclude, I think it's interesting because here what I'm saying I think it's exactly what the previous speakers have explained about the work with the green economy coalition. For example, the development of the hubs reinforcing the capacities reinforcing the networks so they have a stronger influence. This is very much what has been done over the last years by the green economy coalition so I think this work which is presented today is an excellent illustration of what we're trying to do. We see the society not in the context of our cooperation and to conclude, I would like to to get back to my first message when I was saying I was I was glad to be here because we've been working for around four or five years. With the green economy coalition with financial support from the commission to support and develop these these regional hubs. I'm pleased to say that after that, very recently we've just signed a new contract with IED for a new face of this work of the green economy coalition. I think that confirms our commitment to inclusion in the context of our cooperation on green economy and also our positive or yes positive feedback on all which has been achieved and just presented by the colleagues and which is also in the in the report which has been published. So maybe I'll stop here. Thanks for your attention and I'm happy to get back to you if there are some questions or comments. Thanks. Thank you to you but I really great to hear that sort of endorsement from the commission of support for this approach by the new grant that you mentioned there but also to hear about you know how you're thinking about this in European context as well your inclusion is something that is as important in Brussels as it is in Lima as important as it is in Warsaw as it is in Delhi so I'd like to really encourage people to start putting questions into the Q&A box and I'm going to turn to those in a moment but I just wanted to very quickly ask first of all as ZNAT and then for just a sort of a one word, one or two words in response you know what you've just been hearing, what do you think the key support that local organizations and communities need to undertake inclusive dialogues in this sort of COVID recovery context so ZNAT just a couple of words from you on that first but others please do get your questions into the box. What I would say is the most important thing is a place on the table and not really just a tokens place on the table but the place on the table with the mic. So that's I think the most important thing because you then are able to voice your concern and be heard. I think the biggest issue is that we are making programs and schemes and strategies sitting in New Delhi or sitting in the state capital but we forget that they're on ground struggles. Those are barriers that we don't understand and we can only understand those barriers if we have actors on the ground on the table with us and we give them that due you know respect to be able to and respond to those concerns. That's great thank you ZNAT. Luis same question. Thank you. Well, I believe that very important issue is to have someone to lead the dialogue process, someone that can present an idea, communicate it and bring people together. But I must add that it's very relevant that they have a purpose that is very relevant for the participants to bring them together. I think that including authority figures may also be of much help and someone that registers information presented that processes this information and distributes it to relevant stakeholders is key for this to carry on and having someone that takes action in relation to the information shared and that communicates it to the participants is very important for engaging them in further participation. That's very insightful and I think these are the kinds of things that we do need to be learning from and thinking about as this work goes forward. So now turning to our audience I'd really encourage people we've got a few questions coming in but really like to encourage some more. In perspective I can see we have participants from across the world so it would be great if people have thoughts on their own national context and what it might make what it might make most sense for us to be sharing. So moving to those questions. Looking at the ones that have been voted to the top. Steve Bass. Highlighting appreciates the work that the dialogues have focused very much on the positives of inclusion and that there are many, many wins you can achieve. How do they address exclusion? You know, really tough issues of inequality very often you know you talked about somebody having the mic seen out but how often do we find her in a situation where people just don't have a voice so how do we enable ourselves to support that so I'd like to perhaps ask you now about that because you've been producing the report, been looking at quite a lot of the lessons that have come more broadly you know what do you think are some of the key things around the exclusion. And it takes time to get everybody to the table in all the discussions that we've had with with hubs and I can, I guess you know you can to reflect on as much as you needed to have a conversation with the new entrance to the sector and the people that are wanting to change the brick making sector there needs to be a conversation with the the red brick manufacturers and entrepreneurs and how they would feel about their jobs, you know being lost. We had this discussion in Uganda that as they are speaking about activities around along the catchment that can help them build and keep the health of this catchment that affects you know 15 districts along this river. What do they actually address the families the livelihoods that are destructive you know that that are also depending on on that and how do you get by in and understand that you need to shift. I think it takes time I don't think that inclusive processes are built through one project cycle. I think what I've really really enjoyed from the story of development alternatives and your work in be hard. It has been that it's a long process it started way before a project even started in and this takes time. I think what is I think the hubs are very alert to the issue that they need to build this and deepen this inclusion that as much as you need to know to get people around around the table get them the mic you've got to know that there are people also in the streets in the people that that feel that they don't have a voice but I'd love you know your perspective on this because I know that it came up in the in the India story. Yeah, thank you. You know, and thank you Steve for that question you know unfortunately even being on the table. You know democracy is is not the perfect space, if I may say so, but you know, grounding out of the small voice is quite possible and exclusion is quite possible and I think the point that Louis had made about a constant exploitation and a constant, in a sense, awareness of this fact is the only sort of portion we have and at the same time, this point that you are raising Najma about the red brick sector being threatened. Yes, of course I mean it was not it's not been an easy process. Even before, I mean, you know that the work began much much before the GC program we were, but we were looking at it mainly from, you know the climate and CO2 angle and cleaner production and trying to get enterprises initiated. The, the state level structure had had come up the task force at which is the inter departmental structure. Like I mentioned the breakthrough really came when the, when the state level task force actually was represented along with the entrepreneurs on that SLMC, which is where you know the dialogues became tense at times. And it was they were not always very pleasant. We were always two steps forward one step back. There was also an intra entrepreneur conflict, even within the enterprise association because there was competition for a very limited at that time small market. And everybody was hearing for that. And the idea was that the market has to that pie has to grow so that so that the fly ash entrepreneurs are able to get more space but also the transition for the red brick is enabled. So as the orders for banning red bricks and shifting them came into place, the possibilities of how they could move. And you know where is the credit to, to get more capital to, to change from the way what they're doing and that is also a step by step process. And it is happening simultaneously it's not really it's still in, in that sense in a, you know, very much work in progress for, but, but I think it's the movement, the momentum has begun. And I personally don't think we can, we can any longer say that you know there will be casualties and so those are casualties of the green economy transition. No, we have to look at the justice of the transition. And there is no way out without inclusion, there will be no green economy, long lasting if there is no inclusion. So that's what you know we have to, we have to take these as given and move with them to find solutions for it. I think that's right. Green will not be successful if it is not inclusive. And some good questions coming in now. Interesting one. This is from Cara X blood. Thank you all for the discussion. What in your view are some of the key actions that international organizations can take to support countries and ensuring green recovery measures are truly inclusive. And I would like to put that one to you first. Well, I think that working on to the parallel levels is very important. At the government level, it's very important to interact with the decision makers and help them have the tools and the abilities to make some changes relevant for this new situation. But also, you need people on the ground people that are in constant contact with the people that have been have been affected by this situation. In the sense of hearing what they need and putting this information directly to the people that can do something about it. So it's very important to to to work in a parallel action to make sure that the needs are really solved at the end by the decision that decision makers make. I'm sorry, it's it's a kind of a parallel work that you have to do to make sure that the changes that you do are really important and that can really solve the problems that the people need. Okay, yeah, so things things need to happen together so it's a it's a sort of a collaborative action that that's required and international organizations have a role to play in that. I have a question here, directed at you Teebo. It's very good one because from Sonya Moreno at IUCN was a lot of talk about green recovery but actually a lot of that seems to be very focused on on climate measures so reducing co2 emissions, but not sort of nature loss more generally. What do you think is missing for more green recovery plans that take a wider perspective of nature and sustainability why are we not seeing more of those and particularly why we perhaps not seeing a bit more of that in the EU zone sort of green recovery. Well, I think if we look at the our experience on the EU side and the recovery plan, of course, there is a strong focus on climate action. But I think the importance of the other green deal priorities are also quite well reflected. If you look at the green deal, I think there is some balance between action related to climate change specifically, but other components, for example, action by diversity and more broadly the greening of various economic, various economic sectors. I think the importance, of course, is to make the links between the different areas of action. I think there's a growing understanding that if there are no functioning ecosystems, action on climate change is pretty much useless or won't achieve the results needed. But this needs to be to be known more broadly. But again, referring to our experience, I have the feeling that there's quite a strong momentum around diversity, the submit and the CBD submit next year. So it seems to me that there's a fast growing understanding of the importance of ecosystems, the national capital as part of the broader of the response to the broader and the broader environment and climate crisis. Now it comes to promoting this, for example, in the context of our cooperation. I think one of the key aspects is the job, the employment impact. There's a very good paper from UNEP, it's a short note, really showing the importance of environmental sustainability across various economic sectors, including some with strong potential for biodiversity, for example, sustainable tourism. And how green practices across various sectors, whether it's tourism, energy, food production, how much that contributes to job creation, compared with more traditional or business as usual models. So I think the evidence and the monitoring are also essential to encourage any country to be ambitious on this front. Okay, no, that's really good to hear. We are really out of time, but I just wanted to sort of go around each of our speakers to just share one final reflection on this discussion, it's been really rich and there's no way I would try to summarise it. We've heard a lot of really good experience from the local level, we've heard how we need to work at different levels, we've heard the perspective of the European Commission. So perhaps going back to the beginning, Stuart, final thought, reaction to one of the questions, observation from yourself. I'd just like to close by responding to Steve's question, he asks about the excluded. The excluded are those that hold probably the most critical data as to why the system is not working. If you don't include the excluded, you miss out on a massive data set, which therefore means that your response is going to be skewed, and it is unlikely to be successful. The methods that we use to do this is what we call participatory system mapping. And we walk through systems and we deliberately try and find what we call hidden people, people who are not in the space where they would normally come and we bring their voice, also amongst the others to these policy platforms. And what we have seen is that there have been pivots where data that was not seen suddenly comes in and pivots an entire conversation, and you reach a tipping point where suddenly there is a dramatic and rapid change. The issue then of exclusion is not, again, nice to have. It means if we are not including the excluded, we are missing out critical data. And I hope if anybody gets the chance to read this report, you can see where tipping points are reached because excluded voice is now included. Thank you. That's great. It's really good to hear about that practical way to bring the excluded into the conversation. See that final thoughts from you. Very quickly, two points. One, I think the how Najma had pointed, put a finger to it, where that we need these spaces, but we need them structured. So, you know, you can actually go forward in designing for inclusive spaces, spaces that include at the local level, include the local and the subnational together include the subnational and the national together so you need these at designed and structured spaces actively working. So you need the vertical and the horizontal integration for that inclusion to really happen. That's one the second I think is a point about beyond carbon mitigation beyond climate, the indicators for conflicts with other sectors, ecosystems. So, you know, when we looked at soil versus versus production, and you really found that it was, it's not just about CO2 it's also about the fact that you are conflicting with with food production and agriculture and job creation and human development. I think those are indicators that we need to include in in our larger green criteria, which unfortunately are not there in all of our processes and and we need to include them in designing strategies, especially procurement strategies and new sector growth credit strategies for example. Yeah, but very important that sometimes we don't think about those those those interlinkages green sustainable agriculture is key to CO2 emissions as well. Luis, final thoughts from you. Well, I believe that you need more. Are you here with me because I see. You're still you're still with this. Okay, sorry. My internet is not working so well. I believe that you need people or organizations that are in the middle that serves as bridges, because I know, I believe that there are a lot of actions from the government for international organizations, trying to put forward a lot of activities. And there is also lots of needs on the ground to conquer this sustainable world, but many of these actions don't really reach the people on the ground. So you need people that are constantly connecting with people on the ground and giving this information from the from downwards upwards to the to the government. And that's very insightful and real up to date information for their actions. It's very important to have a middle stage organization or people that can breach all this information from one way to the other. But I think that's very good. And that's very, very, very real in in many countries, the reality of citizens, many votes not recognized by their governments. I mean, there's anything like that but people from the European Commission perspective, what would your final thoughts be. My last remark will be to refer to the inclusion matter report. I think it's a very good explanation and demonstration of inclusion works. And I find it very useful because in the European Commission, we don't like to be called the donor, but we are a financial contributor to projects. And I think inclusion is one area where it's particularly difficult to have tangible and well documented results on how these processes can actually improve policy design policy implementation. And I think this report is an excellent contribution to address this this challenge. So I would invite everybody to have a good look at the report. Thank you, Tiba. I was purposely leaving Najma to the end so she could sort of, you know, mention that the link to the report but really great, you know, tangible and well documented results. You know, that's a great endorsement from you and really credit to the team to all of my colleagues are here but Najma, a final word from you. I want to say something completely different. I think planning and investing in a green recovery or green transition without inclusion. It's both unjust and risky. And I think that we've got some voices and movements now that are demanding for the inclusion of citizen perspectives and citizen voice in our plans and our policies and processes. We need to strengthen this alliances. We need the voices of the young people on the streets. We need the voices of people that are calling, you know, for energy democracy and for food sovereignty to join this call for inclusive green economies. And I think we are on the way there but it's really a moment that this voice needs to go to its maximum, reach its maximum volume to be heard in this incredible moment that we all are living through. It's a moment for for immense change. Thank you. That's great. That's a great call to action and a great, great point for us to end on. Hopefully, the participants in this webinar have also been inspired, because we do face a huge challenge, but we also have a huge opportunity. And, you know, the work that GC has been doing with the support of the European Commission highlights how it's possible. And I've been very proud to work with GC and to co-host this webinar. So thank you very much to our panelists. Really appreciate an evening and to all of our participants in the webinar. Take a look at the report. Thank you very much. Get in touch. We look forward to continue to working with you on this agenda. Bye bye. Thank you.